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-   -   Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=149853)

Supreme Dirt August 14th, 2008 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vance (Post 3856924)
I'm in full support for Garchomp being ubers, but I must say, some people make it seem as if it cannot be revenge killed. It's like any other Pokemon; revenge killing it is (somewhat) easy. However, the problem with Chomp is that a lot of the things that revenge kill it are either missing due to Sand Veil and getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd, or dead before Chomp gets out into late game (which is when it should be out, no 3rd turn Garchomps please)

Yes, chomps that lead are failing horribly, unless they are banded, at which point you lose your lead most of the time.

ABYAY August 14th, 2008 10:32 AM

Just a heads up on the TrickSpecs argument: It's null and void because when you trick the Specs on, if Garchomp isn't using Swords Dance, then the attack goes through. I'll explain from the above scene.

TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
---
Alakazam used Trick!
Garchomp obtained Choice Specs!
Alakazam obtained Yache Berry!
Garchomp used Swords Dance! (This move is now choiced and must be picked.)
Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised.

So, as you can see, if you Trick, the move they pick next is choiced. In that situation, Garchomp is stuck on Swords Dance and must switch out. If Earthquake was picked, then it'd be locked into Earthquake.

c_dog August 14th, 2008 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Dirt (Post 3856781)
I fully support the moving of Garchomp to ubers. Every team I have ever built has gotten swept by one at some point. I even built one where I made sure every Pokemon on my team could damage chomp, going so far as to give many of my Pokemon HP [Ice] or either a dragon or Ice move. Then I ran into a team that led with T-tar and had a Chomp on it. I hit it once, but it had a Yache Berry. I was swept.

To sum up : Move Chomp to ubers so I can stop using all the "popular" pokemon, and use the ones I like. I just had one attempt at doing so swept by Chomp... twice in a row, against different people, and got 4-0'd in a third battle against one.

And yes, Chomp would be locked into a swords dance, but what if it didn't use SD?

it can't be that bad if you had ice on every pokemon. it must have been a rather unbalanced team.. nobody faster than chomp and nobody who can take one or two hits from chomp?

it's not that hard to use the pokemon you like unless they're the likes of wigglytuff/venamoth/pigeot(you get the point)... i do okay with a brock team and i used to beat some of the best around here with ash teams. surely it's do-able.

sims796 August 14th, 2008 10:40 AM

Yeah, that is why I disagree with revenge killing. Probably me, and most likely Vance's fault, but I am tired of seeing it pop up by surprise in late gaem. I know, I know, I should be expecting it, but still, I think I'm winning, then D_A pops that bastard up.

Off topic, Lucario haxs D_A by OHKO'ing a full HP Weezing with XSpeed, even when ALL my walls died & he had nothing but sweepers. Take that, Garchimp.

c_dog August 14th, 2008 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABYAY (Post 3856957)
Just a heads up on the TrickSpecs argument: It's null and void because when you trick the Specs on, if Garchomp isn't using Swords Dance, then the attack goes through. I'll explain from the above scene.

TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
---
Alakazam used Trick!
Garchomp obtained Choice Specs!
Alakazam obtained Yache Berry!
Garchomp used Swords Dance! (This move is now choiced and must be picked.)
Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised.

So, as you can see, if you Trick, the move they pick next is choiced. In that situation, Garchomp is stuck on Swords Dance and must switch out. If Earthquake was picked, then it'd be locked into Earthquake.

correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure if garchomp chose earthquake it would fail. something like

TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
---
Alakazam used Trick!
Garchomp obtained Choice Specs!
Alakazam obtained Yache Berry!
Garchomp can't use earthquake due to choice specs!
Alakazam uses ice beam!
Garchomp fainted

If that's not the case then people might as well use "encore" instead.

TRAINER switched into Alakazam
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose.
--------------
Alakazam used Encore!
Garchomp used Swords Dance! (This move is automatically picked until encore ends)
Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised.

Alakazam can then calm mind or ice beam or something. doesn't ruin the garchomp like the specs would but if specs don't work then this is more viable.

edit: oops. as vance pointed out alakazam does not learn ice beam but hp ice.

. August 14th, 2008 10:49 AM

Alakazam cannot learn Ice Beam first of all. Besides that little nitpick, yes, Alakazam would cripple Chomp. But no sane Chomp user would keep Chomp in Zam, since it practically OHKO's with Psychic alone, especially with Specs.

sims796 August 14th, 2008 10:55 AM

No, you can still use special moves with a Choice Band, & vice versa.

I just did a test. Ingame, Raichu held a Choice Band, & I made it use Hidden Power. I was able too. However, I used it on a Psyduck, & he Disabled me. Irony, I was out of moves :laugh:

ABYAY August 14th, 2008 12:44 PM

All choice items do is buff up a stat some. It doesn't mean you can't use a certain move.

Don't worry, my analysis is correct because I actually tested it earlier with Anti, who thought I was wrong...Who's wrong now Anti!? *spear'd by Anti's epicness*

shedinjask August 15th, 2008 6:51 AM

Quote:

correct me if i'm wrong
You're wrong. Whatever move they use after having Specs tricked on is the move they'll be locked into.

And the point isn't that it can't be revenge killed, it's that is has to be revenge killed. You almost always (and I mean seriously always) have to sacrifice something to beat Garchomp.

c_dog August 15th, 2008 10:03 AM

well, if you look at it this way. garchomp is considered almost uber status, so losing 1 poke while getting a revenge kill on it isn't such a bad trade off. i mean it's basically 1 for 1, but you're getting rid of a borderline "uber" while only losing an OU :P

a lot of sweepers can be dangerous at the end of games. i've swept teams with light ball pikachu several times late game. sandveil is hax but i've learned to deal with it. if i lose due to sandveil(which i don't think i have since I rarely get garchomp in sandstorm) then so be it.

sims796 August 15th, 2008 10:09 AM

I disagree strongly with the last comment. From a person who is constantly losing due to cheap hax that is out of my control, I cannot stand losing due to Sand Veil hax.

Ooka August 15th, 2008 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c_dog (Post 3858960)
a lot of sweepers can be dangerous at the end of games. i've swept teams with light ball pikachu several times late game. sandveil is hax but i've learned to deal with it. if i lose due to sandveil(which i don't think i have since I rarely get garchomp in sandstorm) then so be it.

Just figured I'd point out that you were only talking about your opinion in those statements, and how you could sweep a team and not care about Sand Veil. However many of us feel differently. If you're in a tournament, and you are both down to your last Pokemon, with the Sand up. You use Psychic with Zam, and you miss, when you should have rightfully finished him off. Yeah, I know this could happen with other Pokemon, however they don't have the Stat capabilities and movepool that Garchomp gets alongside that ability.

Matt-O August 15th, 2008 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c_dog (Post 3858960)
well, if you look at it this way. garchomp is considered almost uber status, so losing 1 poke while getting a revenge kill on it isn't such a bad trade off. i mean it's basically 1 for 1, but you're getting rid of a borderline "uber" while only losing an OU :P

You do realize the idea of the game is to get ahead so that you have more Pkmn still in fighting shape than your opponent, right? Going one for one is not extremely helpful to either side.

Quote:

a lot of sweepers can be dangerous at the end of games. i've swept teams with light ball pikachu several times late game. sandveil is hax but i've learned to deal with it. if i lose due to sandveil(which i don't think i have since I rarely get garchomp in sandstorm) then so be it.
You may rarely get him in a Sandstorm rarely, but do you know how common T-Tar and Hippowdon are? Lots of people use them, many of them for the very purpose of activating Sand Veil. That means hax is very commonly responsibly for Garchomp sweeps and last time I checked standard rules try to eliminate as much hax as possible by banning things like Double Team and Scope Lens.

Mexirican August 15th, 2008 12:47 PM

Ok i would seriously consider they not think Garchomp is the absolute best pokemon ok i have beaten every type of garchomp with my scarfmie (choice scarf starmie). i do consider him a threat do to him gettin the hax from sandveil. But i think he was put into the suspect ladder because he is so ou its like he went out of style. also maybe its so that people can try and have some creativity i mean common standard is not always the best thing people need to try and consider other outputs. I mean whats the point of playing pokemon if everybody is using the same pokemon over and over again. I think this suspect test is a very good idea i think they should start banning other ou pokemon like garchomp like tyranitar and salamence. If people cant use other pokemon than the standards of what people say are the best then why even play pokemon. I even find it more interesting to study pokemon than to even consider battling. Battling today is not as fun as it used to people dont use their favorite pokemon ne more or people dont even like pokemon that much they just like the feel of winning cause they use the same thing over and over. I do think the suspect ladder is a good idea banning one of the most ou pokemon in the game is good to show people that the standards is not always the way to go.

Also if neone tryies to bash me because of this post then so be it i dont realy care not like im gonna be loosing sleep over it ne way. its my own opinion of u dont like it deal. at least i respect everyone elses opinion.

Ooka August 15th, 2008 1:06 PM

There are plenty of Pokemon that you can stick a scarf on and OHKO with Ice Beam. The only thing is, there aren't any COUNTERS for it. That's the whole point. There isn't a single Pokemon in existence that can switch into a Garchomp without fearing an attack, and then kill it or scare it away.

Ársa August 15th, 2008 2:38 PM

There are plenty that can scare it away, the problem is is that Garchomp can do just that. Switch out to a counter, and once that problem pokemon is gone, in comes Garchomp again to wreak havoc.

~T_S

c_dog August 15th, 2008 3:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by /*.Ooka.*/ (Post 3859192)
Just figured I'd point out that you were only talking about your opinion in those statements, and how you could sweep a team and not care about Sand Veil. However many of us feel differently. If you're in a tournament, and you are both down to your last Pokemon, with the Sand up. You use Psychic with Zam, and you miss, when you should have rightfully finished him off. Yeah, I know this could happen with other Pokemon, however they don't have the Stat capabilities and movepool that Garchomp gets alongside that ability.

all part of the game, unfortunately. i don't see how that's much different from stone edge missing. granted, one can always pick a more accurate move in place of stone edge like rock slide to avoid that, but there's nothing we can do about sandveil. still, kind of all part of the game. it just makes garchomp one of the more haxy pokemon, more so than say flinch hax togekiss. it's still debateable whether that warrants him being moved to ubers, and quite frankly i don't have a strong stance on either side.

shedinjask August 15th, 2008 4:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mexirican (Post 3859326)
Ok i would seriously consider they not think Garchomp is the absolute best pokemon ok i have beaten every type of garchomp with my scarfmie (choice scarf starmie).

Yache Berry go!

i think they should start banning other ou pokemon like garchomp like tyranitar and salamence.

Tar and Mence are nowhere near the threat level of Garchomp.

I do think the suspect ladder is a good idea banning one of the most ou pokemon in the game is good to show people that the standards is not always the way to go.

That is not the point of the suspect ladder.

Sand Veil is just the icing on the cake. Garchomp is uberesque for many more important reasons.

Romo_Owens August 15th, 2008 6:26 PM

Another factor to consider is that while HP ice jolteon and Ice Punch Weavile do easily OHKO Garchomp, Garchomp (especially Choice Band) doesn't have much of a problem switching out. Spikes are mostly seen on Skarmory, Toxic Spikes aren't seen in OU and as Garchomp, while the little bit of pain is unattractive, has no problem switching back into a Stealth Rock set-up. The best strategy to use against Garchomp is to switch a Weavile into it, then hit it with an STAB boosted Pursuit as it switches. Also remember that once Outrage is activated, Garchomp can't be switched out until that Outrage wears out. Once Garchomp has KO'd one of your pokemon, switch in a Weavile, and Garchomp can't run, so it's open to a faster Ice Punch.
Also, you can't forget that if Garchomp is sent to Uber, people won't want to trash their Garchomp. They'll proceed to use it in Uber, and while the numbers of use won't be as enormous as they are in OU, there will still be a fair bit of them. And, say what you want, but Garchomp, with it's speed and attack is more than viable to be used in Uber. Therefore, Uber users will have to narrow their teams so that they can fit a lugia in their team to counter Garchomp, despite how rampant Lugia already is.

Edit: I forgot to mention however, that although Hippowdon and Tyranitar do make their rare appearance in Uber, due to Groudon and Kyogre, Garchomps ability becomes pretty much Obsolete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3859591)
There are plenty that can scare it away, the problem is is that Garchomp can do just that. Switch out to a counter, and once that problem pokemon is gone, in comes Garchomp again to wreak havoc.

~T_S

Precisely why most people keep Garchomp to late game where they have annihilated the counter(s) and in comes Chomp to sweep the rest.

Waffle-San August 15th, 2008 6:55 PM

I gotta say, besides all the many agruments for and against Garchomp in OU. I've been playing a lot of The Suspect Ladder, and I'm getting more enjoyment out of it. Sure some pokemon's uses have gone up (Lucario to name one) but I've seen more diversity. I havn't been in a (respectable) battle that was a total sweep for eather side.
I hate running into Celebi's and Cresselia, but some sets have surprised me now that they don't have to be set up with Garchomp in mind.
Overall I think Garchomp in Ubers is just better for the game. (Excuse the sports cliche)

Magmortified August 15th, 2008 7:20 PM

Does anybody have a comment on how overwhelming Garchomp usage has been attributed to a shrinking OU, or are we all cool with that? =P

Waffle-San August 15th, 2008 7:27 PM

I think we're cool with that.......Holy Yellow username Apostle. I know I havn't been that active....

Spazzy August 16th, 2008 2:00 AM

I did a quick check on Smogon. I glanced at the strategies listed in ubers, checking which ones have either a dragon or an ice move in at least one of their suggested strategies. 16 out of 19 ubers have at least one of those two. 8 of those are ice. 6 of them are dragon stab. I agree that he's too good for OU, but in Ubers he'd be very dead. He would be rule banned from OU tourney, and just not used in ubers.

El Gofre August 16th, 2008 2:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzy (Post 3860953)
I did a quick check on Smogon. I glanced at the strategies listed in ubers, checking which ones have either a dragon or an ice move in at least one of their suggested strategies. 16 out of 19 ubers have at least one of those two. 8 of those are ice. 6 of them are dragon stab. I agree that he's too good for OU, but in Ubers he'd be very dead. He would be rule banned from OU tourney, and just not used in ubers.

That's pretty much the gist of it. A poke is not tier'd by how bad he is in one, but how good it is in the other. Garchomp may get bullied in ubers, but that doesnt really matter because he's been bullying OU for the past year. Its like regular deoxys- Absolutely terrible in ubers, literally never used. But if you made him OU he would destroy pretty much everything.

Ooka August 16th, 2008 7:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzy (Post 3860953)
I did a quick check on Smogon. I glanced at the strategies listed in ubers, checking which ones have either a dragon or an ice move in at least one of their suggested strategies. 16 out of 19 ubers have at least one of those two. 8 of those are ice. 6 of them are dragon stab. I agree that he's too good for OU, but in Ubers he'd be very dead. He would be rule banned from OU tourney, and just not used in ubers.

Lmao, you must not understand correctly, and if you don't understand, you shouldn't post.

A Pokemon gets moved to Ubers when it gets banned from OU/BL. It doesn't matter how the Pokemon functions in Uber, but how it functions in OU.

And besides, Donphan can't even hold the role of taking out Garchomp anymore, since Ice Shard doesn't 2HKO unless it's CB, which gives it even less defensive capabilities.


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