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-   -   Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=149853)

ABYAY August 23rd, 2008 1:36 PM

269 sp.atk is required for a non-STAB Ice Beam to OHKO. For a STAB to KO, Cloyster needs absolutely 0 sp.atk EVs, and it still does about 115% at least. Yache Berry will make the damage to be about 57-65%. At this point, you MUST have Ice Shard, and even then Garchomp can switch out, should it have picked Earthquake. I know Ice Shard without any attack EVs does about 50% at minimum, so you'll be alright in terms of KOing. (Without any offensive EVs in either attack stat.)

Again, I restate though...this is a strong case of "You must have these to KO Chomp." situation. I apologize if I'm "sparking the ashes" of an old conversation, but I feel it's of worth to mention.

sims796 August 23rd, 2008 2:25 PM

Well, whadaya know, it's an ice type! I thought it was just water.

Even if, we are speaking as if Chomp is already out. If you switch Cloyster in while Chomp uses SD, you must then pray that Chomp does the bare minimum on it's next attack, which will do about 87%-102%. Not counting Stealth Rock. If you count it, Cloyster is instanly out. Even as a "you must have these to KO Chomp" senario, that won;'t cut it.

I don't see any ash-sparking around here, cept for when Ash beat Lt.Surge. If it relatesto Chomp, I think it deserves a mention. Even if it's just to prove an already proven point.

ABYAY August 23rd, 2008 3:21 PM

Then I must be mistaken; I'm not sure how much a YacheChomp does to the standard Cloyster with Outrage. I only thought it did something along the lines of 60% to Cloyster.

If what you say is true, then isn't it pretty obvious that the argument is null for Cloyster?

Anti August 23rd, 2008 4:00 PM

You know my whole view on this Cloyster thing is "lol Cloyster." It's never seen in OUs and it's certainly not viable there and it's a shaky Garchomp counter to begin with, so yeah. Cloyster lol

If I really wantes a good Garchomp counter I'd use Specs Tangrowth or Scarf Cresselia, both of which I've used to a pretty awesome degree of success on the Smogon server.

sims796 August 23rd, 2008 4:42 PM

That wouldn't be "overcentralization", if those are his best "counters"?

shedinjask August 23rd, 2008 5:06 PM

Words cannot describe how disappointed I am in everyone saying 'Yache Berry blocks all five hits of Ice Shard on Shoddy so Cloyster isn't a counter.' That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It's a well known glitch which has been pointed out in this thread. It will be fixed.

With that out of the way, 252/252 HP/Def Relaxed/Impish Cloyster takes 71% max from SD Outrage. It switches in on the Swords Dance, Icicle Spears/Ice Beams, then Ice Shards for the KO. If Stealth Rocks aren't up, you win barring a CH (I'd use Ice Beam so you have the option of Battle Armor) or a freak Garchomp with Fire Blast over Fire Fang. If Stealth Rocks are up but Sandstorm isn't, it's the same thing. If both are up, you need to slap on Shell Bell (so you're healed before the buffering) and pray Chomp pulls less than 69% to live. All this is extremely specific and you have to be incredibly careful about not letting Cloyster take any damage beforehand.

That is why Cloyster is not a Garchomp counter. It can be used to deal with Garchomp, since most Stealth Rockers are suicide leads and so they can be spun, but ghost types block that and not everyone wants to carry a spinner or even a Cloyster for that matter. Now please, can we drop it?

Specs Tangrowth is also not a Garchomp counter, where does that idea come from? Scarf Cressy could work but is otherwise outclassed and quite mediocre.

Anti August 23rd, 2008 5:16 PM

Well Tangrowth survives even SD Outrage and OHKOs with Leaf Storm, lol

EDIT: Oh, don't bash Scarf Cresselia until you try it. It's a really good set actually.

sims796 August 23rd, 2008 5:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3872944)
Words cannot describe how disappointed I am in everyone saying 'Yache Berry blocks all five hits of Ice Shard on Shoddy so Cloyster isn't a counter.' That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It's a well known glitch which has been pointed out in this thread. It will be fixed.Glitch or not. As long as it is still that way, we will take it into account.

With that out of the way, 252/252 HP/Def Relaxed/Impish Cloyster takes 71% max from SD Outrage. It switches in on the Swords Dance, Icicle Spears/Ice Beams, then Ice Shards for the KO. If Stealth Rocks aren't up, you win barring a CH (I'd use Ice Beam so you have the option of Battle Armor) or a freak Garchomp with Fire Blast over Fire Fang. If Stealth Rocks are up but Sandstorm isn't, it's the same thing. If both are up, you need to slap on Shell Bell (so you're healed before the buffering) and pray Chomp pulls less than 69% to live. All this is extremely specific and you have to be incredibly careful about not letting Cloyster take any damage beforehand.

Defender HP: 304
Move Damage: 241 - 284
Damage: 79.28% - 93.42%


On a Jolly Garchomp, with max Atk, SD up using Outrage on a Cloyster with a +defence nature, & max HP & Def. If Chomp is Adamant for whatever reason, it jump to 87-102%.



That is why Cloyster is not a Garchomp counter. It can be used to deal with Garchomp, since most Stealth Rockers are suicide leads and so they can be spun, but ghost types block that and not everyone wants to carry a spinner or even a Cloyster for that matter. Now please, can we drop it?If you want it to be dropped, it has to stop being bought up in the first place.

Specs Tangrowth is also not a Garchomp counter, where does that idea come from? Scarf Cressy could work but is otherwise outclassed and quite mediocre.

Yeah, all that. We can all agree, Cloyster is no Chomp counter, especially when the rest of the metagame can beat it.

Archer August 23rd, 2008 10:28 PM

Shedinjask, Tangrowth survives an SD Outrage and can OHKO with Leaf Storm. EQ resistance also helps it switch in more easily.
Switch it in the first time Chomp comes in. You either take an unboosted hit and survive the next one or you switch in on an SD, so it still can't EQ. It can switch in and poses a threat. Simple.
But, yeah. Cloyster doesn't cut it this gen.

I still can't make up my mind on Chomp....

sims796 August 23rd, 2008 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 3873893)
Shedinjask, Tangrowth survives an SD Outrage and can OHKO with Leaf Storm. EQ resistance also helps it switch in more easily.
Switch it in the first time Chomp comes in. You either take an unboosted hit and survive the next one or you switch in on an SD, so it still can't EQ. It can switch in and poses a threat. Simple.
But, yeah. Cloyster doesn't cut it this gen.
Boy, not this again. It won't work.Not about Tangrowth, but on your senario. Of course you'll switch in as soon as it comes up. But, if you come in on SD, you feel pain from a boosted hit. Which is over 72%, if you're lucky.

However, if you are talking about a senario with Tangrowth, it's different.

I still can't make up my mind on Chomp....

Yeah. Cloyster won't cut it. Case closed.

ABYAY August 23rd, 2008 11:16 PM

Garchomp needs to meet its maker and meet Flish, made by D_A...

Now that Failster is out of the way, who wants to bring up another potential counter? (SpecsGrowth and Scarfselia have proved to be effective, fortunately.)

sims796 August 23rd, 2008 11:22 PM

Unfortunately, naming only two pokemon counters can be seen as overcentralization.

Anti August 23rd, 2008 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3873974)
Unfortunately, naming only two pokemon counters can be seen as overcentralization.

What?

So CB Gallade has one counter in Spiritomb, so is that over centralization? I mean DD LO Gyarados doesn't have many counters either, that doesn't mean it or Gallade or Garchomp or anything else is over centralizing the metagame. That term is getting thrown around a lot but half the time it's used incorrectly.

Over centralization is basically when a pokemon centralizes the metagame too much, or forces your team to prepare and adapt to it so heavily that it cripples teams, and without adapting that heavily, said threat will destroy your team almost inevitably. Having few counters does not ensure over centralization...in fact, I question if there is much of a link at all considering CB Gallade has one counter in Spiritomb, who isn't exactly on every team.

EDIT: Or as Archer put it on shoddy, over centralization is "Where the entire metagame shifts to cope with a single pokemon."

Thank you Deoxys-S!

PS: Cloyster lololololol

sims796 August 23rd, 2008 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti Pop Culture Warrior (Post 3873982)
What?

So CB Gallade has one counter in Spiritomb, so is that over centralization? I mean DD LO Gyarados doesn't have many counters either, that doesn't mean it or Gallade or Garchomp or anything else is over centralizing the metagame. That term is getting thrown around a lot but half the time it's used incorrectly.

Over centralization is basically when a pokemon centralizes the metagame too much, or forces your team to prepare and adapt to it so heavily that it cripples teams, and without adapting that heavily, said threat will destroy your team almost inevitably. Having few counters does not ensure over centralization...in fact, I question if there is much of a link at all considering CB Gallade has one counter in Spiritomb, who isn't exactly on every team.

Apparently, you misunderstood what I said. Again. I'll explain. Try not to make me post again, as I am very sleepy.

CB Gallade is very different, as prediction will handle it just as well. The same cannot be said about Garchomp. I never said that having two counters were overcentrailization, hell, I don't even know where you got that from. I did say that naming two pokemon like SpecsGrowth and ScarfCressy as counters won't cut it at all, and needing to add it to counter Chomp is half arsed indeed. Therefor, naming couters is very much moot. No matter how good the supposedly are in battle.

. Posts have been given about how Chomp can destroy a team, I won't waste my time elaborating, so don't waste yours, as almost everything on this thread has been theorymon, from both parties.

I'm going to sleep now, because I'm getting snippy for noparticular reason. Good night.

. August 24th, 2008 12:26 AM

The main beef with Garchomp is that Sand Veil, sure, it may not be a 'great' argument, but it's still an argument. Comparing Garchomp to Gliscor is pure stupidity. Gliscor does not have a Base 180 Power move that hits everything except for steel for neutral. Nor does he had Base 130 Attack. He also has a very limited space at times, SD and Roost taking two slots. If he was a straight up sweeper, he'd be an inferior Garchomp, and we know this.

I'm a little tired of losing a match over Sand Veil forcing my HP Ice, or Ice Shard, to miss. It's not fair. It's CLEARLY gg in my favor, and I lose becase of pure luck. That's what it is, pure luck. How unfair is it to decide and entire match on a hax ability? Very unfair if you ask me.


Also, YAY 1000 posts ^__^

Aquilae August 24th, 2008 1:52 AM

And how does Gliscor's base attack, speed and movepool come into the equation? If Gliscor keeps getting misses with Sand Veil wouldn't it sweep? You cannot compare it to Garchomp without being heavily subjective as it isn't right in all instances to say that if Garchomp gets a miss from Sand Veil, it will win, whereas when Gliscor only gets one miss it wouldn't win.

. August 24th, 2008 1:55 AM

I can see what you're saying, but Garchomp is much more dangerous with Outrage, than Gliscor is with...Ice Fang? Dragon/Fire/Ground hits everything for neutral. If Gliscor uses SD/Roost, it cannot do the same (note: We're talking about SD Chomp at the moment)

Aquilae August 24th, 2008 2:42 AM

How can't it do the same? What does Chomp have over Gliscor that basically "amplifies" the boost to Sand Veil? You quote Garchomp's better offenses and speed but I still don't understand how it comes into play when determining the supposed Uber quality that Garchomp possesses with Sand Veil, and that similar pokemon with those evasion-boosting abilities are not Uber.

. August 24th, 2008 3:32 AM

Gliscor cannot do as much immediate damage as Garchomp, so in late game, there is a chance Gliscor won't be one-shotting everything on your team that is still alive. Say Garchomp finishes off my Gliscor. I bring in Gengar, use HP Ice, miss, Garchomp's Outrage OHKO's me. If I do the same, except it's Gliscor, it's Ice Fang will NOT OHKO me. It may seem like a minor situation, but it could cost the entire match.

Archer August 24th, 2008 3:43 AM

I guess what Vance is trying to say, is that a miss on Garchomp can let it SD or kill a counter. With Gliscor you don't necessarily face a sweep if you miss it. I realise that this is a double-standard and that it hardly makes Garchomp Uber on it's own, but it all adds up.

Which brings me to this. We have to look at all of the aspects together. Garchomp has many attributes that make it a potent threat, however none of these are enough to condemn it to the Uber tier.
  • Speed Tier - The 102 Base Speed lets it outrun a large number of threats, however high speed hardly makes a pokemon game-breaking (see Ninjask).
  • Outrage - An accurate, powerful STAB attack is something to be feared, surely, but keep in mind we have pokemon like Tauros, with a good Speed and Attack Stat, carrying 102bp STAB Returns (or Double-Edge). Again, there are things that resist it and can take a few hits.
  • Sand Veil - Yes. It can tend to be hax-ridden, but the same trait is carried by several other pokemon or mimicked by Snow Cloak. In these cases, you may miss once, but you also face this risk when using attacks with less than 100% accuracy.
  • Yache Berry- It makes revenging this part-cow(nvm) a pain, although it doesn't make Torterra a massive threat. Or even Wacan Berry on Gyarados. It cuts it's power and lets it live one more turn...

Sure, there are other points, but I am too tired to post them. What we can see here is that Garchomp's "Uber" traits are shared by other pokemon that are not facing Metagame eviction. It is only when these aspects are combined, does it become such a massive threat. Now, I leave it to someone else to tear these points apart, in an attempt to increase their postcount, lol. Enjoy.

El Gofre August 24th, 2008 4:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 3874306)
I guess what Vance is trying to say, is that a miss on Garchomp can let it SD or kill a counter. With Gliscor you don't necessarily face a sweep if you miss it. I realise that this is a double-standard and that it hardly makes Garchomp Uber on it's own, but it all adds up.

Which brings me to this. We have to look at all of the aspects together. Garchomp has many attributes that make it a potent threat, however none of these are enough to condemn it to the Uber tier.
  • Speed Tier - The 102 Base Speed lets it outrun a large number of threats, however high speed hardly makes a pokemon game-breaking (see Ninjask).
  • Outrage - An accurate, powerful STAB attack is something to be feared, surely, but keep in mind we have pokemon like Tauros, with a good Speed and Attack Stat, carrying 102bp STAB Returns (or Double-Edge). Again, there are things that resist it and can take a few hits.
  • Sand Veil - Yes. It can tend to be hax-ridden, but the same trait is carried by several other pokemon or mimicked by Snow Cloak. In these cases, you may miss once, but you also face this risk when using attacks with less than 100% accuracy.
  • Yache Berry- It makes revenging this part-cow(nvm) a pain, although it doesn't make Torterra a massive threat. Or even Wacan Berry on Gyarados. It cuts it's power and lets it live one more turn...

Sure, there are other points, but I am too tired to post them. What we can see here is that Garchomp's "Uber" traits are shared by other pokemon that are not facing Metagame eviction. It is only when these aspects are combined, does it become such a massive threat. Now, I leave it to someone else to tear these points apart, in an attempt to increase their postcount, lol. Enjoy.

I personally don't feel that analysing each aspect individually gives a valid arguament to whether he should be uber or not. Yes tauros has a more power STAB, but this STAB is resisted and ignored by several types. Yes yache berry only garentees another turn, but when it's against a poke that can 2HKO you, you dont often have the chance. All taken together, and garchomp is a larger threat than all the example you used above, becomes he combines all those fearsome aspects.

Archer August 24th, 2008 4:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Gofre (Post 3874407)
I personally don't feel that analysing each aspect individually gives a valid arguament to whether he should be uber or not. Yes tauros has a more power STAB, but this STAB is resisted and ignored by several types. Yes yache berry only garentees another turn, but when it's against a poke that can 2HKO you, you dont often have the chance. All taken together, and garchomp is a larger threat than all the example you used above, becomes he combines all those fearsome aspects.

Exactly. Those aspects on their own are not as dangerous. Although you combine them and suddenly you have a massive threat. Did you actually read what the whole post? I said we have to look at them as a whole.

Aquilae August 24th, 2008 5:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer
...can let it SD or kill a counter. With Gliscor you don't necessarily face a sweep if you miss it..

What basically guarantees Chomp the immediate ability to KO its counter with a miss while Gliscor cannot? This is all extremely subjective, why can Garchomp get past its counter with Sand Veil while all of a sudden Gliscor or any other pokemon with an evasion-boosting ability cannot?

Archer August 24th, 2008 5:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquilae (Post 3874575)
What basically guarantees Chomp the immediate ability to KO its counter with a miss while Gliscor cannot? This is all extremely subjective, why can Garchomp get past its counter with Sand Veil while all of a sudden Gliscor or any other pokemon with an evasion-boosting ability cannot?

Is anyone taking on board what I have to say? I am saying none of Garchomp's traits make it Uber, but when they are added together, he becomes a bigger threat.

I realise the Double-Standard, but Gliscor does not OHKO most pokemon that would attempt to revenge it.

airconditioning August 24th, 2008 5:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquilae (Post 3874575)
What basically guarantees Chomp the immediate ability to KO its counter with a miss while Gliscor cannot? This is all extremely subjective, why can Garchomp get past its counter with Sand Veil while all of a sudden Gliscor or any other pokemon with an evasion-boosting ability cannot?

Please think about what you're saying, and what we have all been saying for a moment here.

When you switch in on Garchomp, he gets an SD. Let's assume that when you switch in on Gliscor, he too gets an SD. Now, let's look at what each Pokemon has: Garchomp has a 180 BP move that is only resisted by a single type in the game, and a 150 BP move that hits said type SE, all coming off of 130 base Atk. Not to mention the 102 base Speed, meaning he can outrun many common counters without fear. Let's look at what Gliscor has: a 150 BP move that hits a number of types, true, and some other moves (either a 100 BP move to hit Flyers, or a 65 BP move to hit things like Garchomp), all coming off of 95 base Atk. Not to mention that 95 base Speed- he loses to a large number of other threats (does Gliscor even run max Speed?). With the large drop in power, a number of other threats come in much more easily and can easily OHKO. Bulky waters can OHKO with Ice Beam, or use a STAB Surf if they fear Yache (does Gliscor even run that?). Cressy and other Levitators laugh at Earthquake. And Salamence and the number of other base 100s will scare Gliscor away without a doubt. Even if one misses, who cares? The pool of Pokemon that can kill Gliscor is much larger than the pool that can kill Chomp- odds are that you'll have another one on your team.


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