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-   -   US Elections 2008: Debate the Issues (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=152191)

Red1530 October 5th, 2008 5:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor Pine (Post 4006313)
Obama has the best policies by far...

Mccain is Bush II

If you have looked at McCain's record during the Bush Administration, he was more of a hindrance then a helper.

The next debate is on Tuesday and it is in town hall style format. That means that the audience, not the moderator, ask the questions. If you could ask any question to either candidate what would you ask?

I would ask:
  • Senator McCain, would you include light pollution control in your energy plan?
  • Senator Obama, in February you stated that the Washington, D.C. handgun ban was constitutional yet in June the Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional. After the ruling, you stated that the court made the right decision. How do you reconcile your February position to your June position and what type of gun laws will you support as president?

Akio123 October 6th, 2008 5:19 AM

Senator Obama: Considering the immense deficit that the country has in terms of revenue, do you still plan on putting 18 billion dollars into Global warming research and stem cell research?

Chairzard October 6th, 2008 8:32 AM

Wow awful lot of democratic votes, aw well it makes sense considering most of the people here are under 18.

Too bad you guys cant vote, Mccain 08

Mooshykris October 6th, 2008 8:51 AM

At this point, I'd like to ask the question. Forget the policies on abortion, guns, healthcare, and everything else.


I'd like you guys to answer how you think EITHER of them can solve the economy, which is rapidly falling back to the depression age. Because, though I still support McCain, I seriously think neither one can do anything to stop the inevitable, and we'll just have to let history repeat itself, and recover naturally.


Mooshykris

Chairzard October 6th, 2008 9:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mooshykris (Post 4008776)
At this point, I'd like to ask the question. Forget the policies on abortion, guns, healthcare, and everything else.


I'd like you guys to answer how you think EITHER of them can solve the economy, which is rapidly falling back to the depression age. Because, though I still support McCain, I seriously think neither one can do anything to stop the inevitable, and we'll just have to let history repeat itself, and recover naturally.


Mooshykris

Someone believes media hype to much, we are in no way shape or form going to fall back to the depression age, we still have the highest Gross Domestic Profit of any country and it is still increasing.The value of the dollar always increases and decreases at certain intervals in history and there is no reason to suspect it won't recover.

Sure our economy Isn't in its prime right now, but that whole depression talk is ********.

Aurafire October 6th, 2008 9:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chairzard (Post 4008792)
Someone believes media hype to much, we are in no way shape or form going to fall back to the depression age, we still have the highest Gross Domestic Profit of any country and it is still increasing.The value of the dollar always increases and decreases at certain intervals in history and there is no reason to suspect it won't recover.

Sure our economy Isn't in its prime right now, but that whole depression talk is ********.

THANK YOU! I couldn't agree more, although the economy is not doing incredible, we've had a positive GDP for the past two quarters. Last time I checked, that's not a recession.

Mooshykris October 6th, 2008 9:18 AM

Actually, my worry is not with the big business. My worry is with the effects of this on the lower middle class people like my family. I don't see this all powerful bill stabilizing anything for us.

I used to be quite optimistic about the economy, but I don't see anything changing. I'm just concerned for people like my family who struggle already.

Mooshykris

Aurafire October 6th, 2008 9:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mooshykris (Post 4008811)
Actually, my worry is not with the big business. My worry is with the effects of this on the lower middle class people like my family. I don't see this all powerful bill stabilizing anything for us.

I used to be quite optimistic about the economy, but I don't see anything changing. I'm just concerned for people like my family who struggle already.

Mooshykris

Hopefully those trillion+ dollars will be put to good use. It hasn't really had enough time to have an effect, but economies are complicated business, and it could be a while before things start to get better.

Mooshykris October 6th, 2008 9:24 AM

Yes, I agree.

But yeah, that's why I'm worried. I'm worried for our own sake, not for the big businesses.


Mooshykris

Aurafire October 6th, 2008 9:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mooshykris (Post 4008816)
Yes, I agree.

But yeah, that's why I'm worried. I'm worried for our own sake, not for the big businesses.


Mooshykris

Indeed. I'd be disappointed if that money was used to bail out companies that were dishonest and reckless, instead of helping people that actually need aid.

Netto Azure October 6th, 2008 11:28 AM

Ok I agree that the Middle Class must be protected....That's why I support the Democrats....But you have to admit, just because were under 18 doesn't mean we don't know what were voting for...

Aurafire October 6th, 2008 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 4009061)
Ok I agree that the Middle Class must be protected....That's why I support the Democrats....But you have to admit, just because were under 18 doesn't mean we don't know what were voting for...

Just to clarify...The Republicans don't hate the middle class. They just go about supporting them in a different way then Democrats, and each policy is up for debate. At times, certain policies work better than others...that's all I have to say =P

Sounds October 6th, 2008 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurasphere (Post 4009095)
Just to clarify...The Republicans don't hate the middle class. They just go about supporting them in a different way then Democrats, and each policy is up for debate. At times, certain policies work better than others...that's all I have to say =P

thats exactly what i would have said

txteclipse October 6th, 2008 11:54 AM

I want to know what the frell they're going to do about these ridiculous gas prices. It's an imminent problem for me. Are they going to let us rot until newer energy technologies come out, or what?

Aurafire October 6th, 2008 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txteclipse (Post 4009127)
I want to know what the frell they're going to do about these ridiculous gas prices. It's an imminent problem for me.

In all actuality, the market determines the price of oil, which determines the price of gas. Since supply is relatively low, obviously the price must rise. I mean...people are quick to blame the oil companies for the high prices, but if they don't charge what the market requires they won't make any money, then no one will have gas =X

We could start drilling for oil in the humungotastic reserves we have right here on American soil, but Congress obviously thinks that's a bad idea -_-

Lusankya October 6th, 2008 12:16 PM

The oil companies have gotten too used to 100+ dollar a barrel oil. I heard on the news that some oil-producing nations were going to cut supply because of falling oil prices. =_= Never mind the fact that it's still higher than it was just a few years ago. At any rate, there's very little the government can do to cut oil prices without going all communist and demanding that the oil companies lower their prices, because it's all decided by supply, demand, and the situation in the Middle East. Any kind of oil speculation, whether in the Gulf of Mexico or in the suspected gigantic reserves or Alaska wouldn't have any effects for many years, so there's really nothing they can do to lower gas prices in the immediate future.

Netto Azure October 6th, 2008 6:00 PM

Wow...Were in the Last month of the US Campaigns...This is the Home-Stretch folks...
I thought that this was going to be "New", non-partisan, and "Positive" politics. Both candidates have "stretched-the-truth" (Eh...I'll stop it with the euphemisms BOTH OF THEM ARE LYING IN THEIR ADS) Seriously...The Up-to-date American People are tired of this negative mud-slinging. It just pushes a lot of people away from listening to your "Official" campaign platforms. Essentially "Stupid campaign distractions" whatever happened to the Issues? The economy is in a crash. Europe is now in a panic like us a couple of weeks ago...Seriously both candidates should get their acts together.

What I'll ask the candidates if I could in the Town Hall Debate: (HealthCare)

Sen. McCain: The Obama campaign has accused your $5000 tax-break healthcare plan (Buy-insurance) as being funded by massive tax increases, Please extrapolate on how it would truly be funded and work to benefit Americans.

Sen. Obama: The Healthcare plan you are proposing provides base-line coverage to all Americans. Now with the $850 Billion Federal Bail-out Plan has passed, How are you going to fund this massive Government Healthcare insurance plan?
(Not the Universal Healthcare I wanted, but it's a start and we could always expand)

Lusankya October 6th, 2008 6:19 PM

Meanwhile, we have the "W" movie about George W. Bush coming out on October 17. :P

Anyways, any kinda of talk about having a mud-free, higher-level campaign is just that: Talk. All the politicians end up just throwing stuff at each other and hoping something will stick. People might say they hate negative ads, but the fact is: They work.

Yamikarasu October 6th, 2008 6:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txteclipse (Post 4009127)
I want to know what the frell they're going to do about these ridiculous gas prices. It's an imminent problem for me. Are they going to let us rot until newer energy technologies come out, or what?

Honestly, what could anyone do? Oil is a limited resource, prices are going up, and politicians can't just magically poof it back to $2 a gallon. We'll probably just have to stick it out until electric cars are economical.

In the mean time, I'll just take the bus... although bus tickets are starting to go up too. :(

TRIFORCE89 October 6th, 2008 7:43 PM

I actually like T. Boone Pickens' plan a lot. But neither candidate seems to support it in full.

As the campaign goes on...I've come to the conclusion that I dislike both candidates. XD I liked McCain eight years ago and he should've gained his party's nomination then. But, he's just not the same now and I dislike Palin. With Obama...Hillary would've been a much better choice. And I just don't see him as having the experience. He said so himself before he started running and Biden (although he won't admit it now) and Carter say the same.

Allstories October 7th, 2008 4:45 AM

McCain supporters: what have you to say about McCain's judgement regarding the Keating Five scandal?



I think this kinda holds more weight than Obama being a casual aquaintance of Bill Ayers, btw.

sims796 October 7th, 2008 4:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 (Post 4010651)
I actually like T. Boone Pickens' plan a lot. But neither candidate seems to support it in full.

As the campaign goes on...I've come to the conclusion that I dislike both candidates. XD I liked McCain eight years again and he should've gained his party's nomination then. But, he's just not the same now and I dislike Palin. With Obama...Hillary would've been a much better choice. And I just don't him as having the experience. He said so himself before he started running and Biden (although he won't admit it now) and Carter say the same.

I agree. IT's a shame when the first vote you can make is with two canidates you don't fully support.

TRIFORCE89 October 7th, 2008 5:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4011239)
McCain supporters: what have you to say about McCain's judgement regarding the Keating Five scandal?



I think this kinda holds more weight than Obama being a casual aquaintance of Bill Ayers, btw.

I think the point of the Ayers-Obama thing is that he somehow keeps having associations with these bad people. Having a racist be your spiritual adviser and accepting money from a terrorist is just not good. Obama's not a racist or a terrorist, but it just shows really poor judgement for associating himself with such people. It's not a Republican spin-thing either. Hilary would bring it up when she was running too.

Same thing with McCain. Poor judgement, although ultimately it was found that he was not responsible for anything...and he isn't continually finding himself in the situation.

sims796, and well...I wouldn't be voting anyway XD I'm Canadian. I just keep up on your politics because you affect us so much. Canadian election is in a week and I know who I'm voting for.

sims796 October 7th, 2008 5:22 AM

Well, I was speaking for the both of us. (Apparently not, lulz)

Obama's inexperience is frightening, but I am tired of seeing Republicans in office. Anything to sti=op the George Bush jokes, I suppose.

Mooshykris October 7th, 2008 8:20 AM

Haha what amazes me here is how it seems there are some people here who debate dirtier then the candidates themselves :P

~Mooshykris

Red1530 October 7th, 2008 9:36 AM

Obama's Surrogate Connection to the Keating Five
 
One of Senator Obama's surrogates, Sen. John Glenn was apart of the Keating Five as well. Like Senator McCain he was cleared by the Senate Ethics Committee. I was listing to the Neal Boortz Show and he read from parts of a New York Times article dated September 30, 1999, that showed some people were raising the alarm then.

Samurai X October 7th, 2008 5:25 PM

I really don't like both candidates but Palin worries me and that's what's made my mind up really. I can't believe something like that is what won me over, it's sad really.

sims796 October 7th, 2008 5:44 PM

He makes a good point. Most youth have dmeocratic views, and that's to be expected. They are usually naive to the workings of the world outside their own. No, I won't mince words, or try to sound nice over teh intarwebs. Youth of today -including me- are somewhat ignorant of how the world actually work, no matter how many figures we can find, or how smart we think we are.

Red1530 October 7th, 2008 7:17 PM

After watching the debate, I have to say it failed to meet my expectations of a town hall format debate. As I suspected, most of the questions were on the economy but it seams that both sides were able to reiterate their campaign talking points. I was hoping for other questions besides the economy and health care like gun control and immigration. In my opinion the first debate was better then the second.

Aurafire October 7th, 2008 7:23 PM

I agree with red, most of it was just campaign rhetoric and "he voted for this and I didn't". I was left feeling very dissatisfied. There was a lot of dancing around the questions and not a lot of real debate.

Allstories October 7th, 2008 7:28 PM

Overhead projectors are killing our economy!

Aurafire October 7th, 2008 7:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4013437)
Overhead projectors are killing our economy!

That was actually kind of hilarious...McCain could have sited much more meaningful spending bills than...over-head projectors XD.

Akio123 October 8th, 2008 5:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red1530 (Post 4013410)
After watching the debate, I have to say it failed to meet my expectations of a town hall format debate. As I suspected, most of the questions were on the economy but it seams that both sides were able to reiterate their campaign talking points. I was hoping for other questions besides the economy and health care like gun control and immigration. In my opinion the first debate was better then the second.

Well the next debate is next week at Hofstra, so you can probably watch another to see if anything you need answered will maybe done then.the first debate I did like I must say though...

Mooshykris October 8th, 2008 6:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 4012942)
Who are you talking about :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4013437)
Overhead projectors are killing our economy!

^ The guy who won't cut on the sarcasm, that's who.


~Mooshykris

TRIFORCE89 October 8th, 2008 6:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4013072)
He makes a good point. Most youth have dmeocratic views, and that's to be expected. They are usually naive to the workings of the world outside their own. No, I won't mince words, or try to sound nice over teh intarwebs. Youth of today -including me- are somewhat ignorant of how the world actually work, no matter how many figures we can find, or how smart we think we are.

That's...a Democrat thing in general. XD Or at least the supporters of the party. If you watch say...CNN. When they do the annoying talking heads of Republican supporters and Democrat supports. The images the supporters project out is one of "we're perfect, and they're pure evil". Which then makes the Republicans look wimpy because all they can say is "Can you shuttup and let us talk?" Disagreements and stuff are fine, but the supporters take absolutely no responsibility for anything and can't fathom that they would do something wrong.

With the financial crisis, both parties are responsible. The 40-year loan nonsense started with Clinton, Bush should've put a stop to that during his presidency. Six years ago the Republicans said we have a problem here, we should do something. Democrats said nah. Now we have an $80 billion bailout with to pay for parties of those responsible. Way to go both parties.

The amount of spin is incredible. Both parties have the same view on gay marriage, but the Democrats make it out that Republicans want them destroyed.

So, even if it's untrue - your options as a youth are the supposed perfect party or support the devil. No one actually bothers to look into anything or view the platform and actually be informed.

sims796 October 8th, 2008 7:10 AM

I *kinda* meant both the democratic & the youth are out of the loop, but you explained it much better, especially since I had to re-read it twice =D.

I think I may be democratic, I haven't decided. But no matter what the party, it is far too important to look outside the ass or the trunk, and do original reasearch. The youth of today has far too much time on their hands, thinking they can understand everything about the world through the news & the internets. And 97% of the internets is porn, so there that goes. And don't get me started on those liberal youths. Rebublican youth actually annoy me more.

I just hate young people >=[

TRIFORCE89 October 8th, 2008 7:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4014286)
I *kinda* meant both the democratic & the youth are out of the loop, but you explained it much better, especially since I had to re-read it twice =D.

I think I may be democratic, I haven't decided. But no matter what the party, it is far too important to look outside the ass or the trunk, and do original reasearch. The youth of today has far too much time on their hands, thinking they can understand everything about the world through the news & the internets. And 97% of the internets is porn, so there that goes. And don't get me started on those liberal youths. Rebublican youth actually annoy me more.

I just hate young people >=[

I consider myself centre-right. I'm fisically conservative and somewhat socially liberal (if there's a left route and a right route, I'll probably make up a middle route XD). And in Canada, I'm all set cause I have a party that fits that bill. But, in the states I'd be at a lost. The Republicans are too far right (although I hoped McCain would change that. He could've, but nope). If I was in America, I could flip-flop all year between the two parties. XD

Netto Azure October 8th, 2008 7:40 AM

Replies...
 
Sorry for not being able to give opinions for 2 days, but HS comes first before PC. I would have a much better reply than this but it was accidentally deleted earlier....
Also I'll comment on the Debates tomorrow...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chairzard (Post 4008733)
Wow awful lot of democratic votes, aw well it makes sense considering most of the people here are under 18.

Too bad you guys cant vote, Mccain 08

Just what are you implying. The stereotype that the "youth" are a bunch of Democrats? Aurasphere attests to the fact that it's not true. But don't worry Obama has rallied the "Youth" to vote and be part of the political process....:P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chairzard (Post 4008792)
Someone believes media hype to much, we are in no way shape or form going to fall back to the depression age, we still have the highest Gross Domestic Profit of any country and it is still increasing.The value of the dollar always increases and decreases at certain intervals in history and there is no reason to suspect it won't recover.

Sure our economy Isn't in its prime right now, but that whole depression talk is ********.

I'm sure were not going to a depression, but it will still be a severe recession due to the fears instilled in Wall. St., NOW IT'S ALL ABOUT PSYCHOLOGICAL FEAR!!! That is what driving the markets down!!! But remember this is now a Global Economy. Europe's scrambling for plans, this affects us. The import-export interconnection does not isolate us from the world. What happens on one part of the world greatly affects us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mooshykris (Post 4008776)
At this point, I'd like to ask the question. Forget the policies on abortion, guns, healthcare, and everything else.


I'd like you guys to answer how you think EITHER of them can solve the economy, which is rapidly falling back to the depression age. Because, though I still support McCain, I seriously think neither one can do anything to stop the inevitable, and we'll just have to let history repeat itself, and recover naturally.

Mooshykris

I think either one ALONE cannot solve the problem. But I believe Obama's level-headedness is an asset during this uncertain times and the thing is he is able to listen to both sides before making decisions. That is why we need Bi-partisanship. We need both Conservative Frugalism and Liberal Social Programs to weather these great times. :14:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurasphere (Post 4009139)
In all actuality, the market determines the price of oil, which determines the price of gas. Since supply is relatively low, obviously the price must rise. I mean...people are quick to blame the oil companies for the high prices, but if they don't charge what the market requires they won't make any money, then no one will have gas =X

We could start drilling for oil in the humungotastic reserves we have right here on American soil, but Congress obviously thinks that's a bad idea -_-

How Wall St. works :P Heh...


I know it's necessary for the improvement of the supply. But it's just too morally questionable to put profits first.
Also didn't Congress already pass that offshore oil-drilling Act? Yes, we need to become Energy Independent but how are we going to learn how to live without oil if we keep on looking for ways to get it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusankya (Post 4010372)
Meanwhile, we have the "W" movie about George W. Bush coming out on October 17. :P

Anyways, any kinda of talk about having a mud-free, higher-level campaign is just that: Talk. All the politicians end up just throwing stuff at each other and hoping something will stick. People might say they hate negative ads, but the fact is: They work.

One can have "Hope" for "Change" or "Chope" (Mad TV Reference =D) Anyways, I've seen enough NEGATIVE politics in the Phillipines. We've seen our own President Impeached through a "People Power" Revolution in 2001 due to corruption charges....It's sad that polititians sell their souls and principlesfor the greater good....

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 (Post 4010651)
I actually like T. Boone Pickens' plan a lot. But neither candidate seems to support it in full.

As the campaign goes on...I've come to the conclusion that I dislike both candidates. XD I liked McCain eight years ago and he should've gained his party's nomination then. But, he's just not the same now and I dislike Palin. With Obama...Hillary would've been a much better choice. And I just don't see him as having the experience. He said so himself before he started running and Biden (although he won't admit it now) and Carter say the same.

Eh it would have been a lot easier to convince my parents to vote Democrat if Hillary was on the Democratic Ticket. Thy're both voting Republican TT^TT XP....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mooshykris (Post 4011588)
Haha what amazes me here is how it seems there are some people here who debate dirtier then the candidates themselves :P

~Mooshykris

Who are you talking about? :9:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 (Post 4014299)
I consider myself centre-right. I'm fisically conservative and somewhat socially liberal (if there's a left route and a right route, I'll probably make up a middle route XD). And in Canada, I'm all set cause I have a party that fits that bill. But, in the states I'd be at a lost. The Republicans are too far right (although I hoped McCain would change that. He could've, but nope). If I was in America, I could flip-flop all year between the two parties. XD

Eh....I've seen the Canadian Parties platforms. (Listened to "As it happens" on CBC) Now I support the Conservative Party. YOU MUST STAY THE COURSE!!!! LOL!!! A budget surplus convincesme to do this

Volkner's Apprentice October 8th, 2008 2:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 (Post 4014249)
That's...a Democrat thing in general. XD Or at least the supporters of the party. If you watch say...CNN. When they do the annoying talking heads of Republican supporters and Democrat supports. The images the supporters project out is one of "we're perfect, and they're pure evil". Which then makes the Republicans look wimpy because all they can say is "Can you shuttup and let us talk?" Disagreements and stuff are fine, but the supporters take absolutely no responsibility for anything and can't fathom that they would do something wrong.

With the financial crisis, both parties are responsible. The 40-year loan nonsense started with Clinton, Bush should've put a stop to that during his presidency. Six years ago the Republicans said we have a problem here, we should do something. Democrats said nah. Now we have an $80 billion bailout with to pay for parties of those responsible. Way to go both parties.

The amount of spin is incredible. Both parties have the same view on gay marriage, but the Democrats make it out that Republicans want them destroyed.

So, even if it's untrue - your options as a youth are the supposed perfect party or support the devil. No one actually bothers to look into anything or view the platform and actually be informed.

Why are Canadians so sensible? haha, I like the way you put that, a lot of it's true. Although I've already chosen the Republican party based on solid values and what not, I can lean to the center on a good number of things and easily understand where other people are coming from.

The extremists kill me, honestly, and I don't mean to be biased but a lot of the people I know who are liberal are the ones who bite your head off when it comes to expressing their views and that to me is just stupid. There's nothing wrong with trying to get things across and expressing your viewpoints/beliefs in an honest, clean fashion instead of screaming so the whole cafeteria/restaurant/store/etc. can hear you say "ARE YOU SERIOUS!?! OMG *RANTS ABOUT HOW WRONG SAID PERSON THEY'RE TALKING TO IS*"

I don't mind if people are excited or really positive about what they think, but there's definitely a line that must be drawn. Politics is a lot, but it's not life (well..alright, so it determines a hell of a lot, but you get the picture :P).

Glitter Stain October 8th, 2008 4:20 PM

Normally, I'd just vote for a Democratic president anyway, but I have another reason not to vote for McCain. I mean, that would mean, putting Sarah Palin in office, and... um... no thanks. She waffles any question she can't answer and replies by saying how much she's done for Alaska. My advice? She can freeze her ass off in Alaska. No reason to make someone like that VP.

If someone thought she was being courageous for being a woman running for high office, been there, done that.

Biden, on the other hand, usually answers the questions he gets, and is a much better VP choice.

Now, about the actual presidents, either one would be fine for me... but I just can't deal with Palin.

sims796 October 8th, 2008 4:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 4014315)
Just what are you implying. The stereotype that the "youth" are a bunch of Democrats? Aurasphere attests to the fact that it's not true. But don't worry Obama has rallied the "Youth" to vote and be part of the political process....:P

Ok just because were "Kids" doesn't mean we don't know what is going on. What are you, 19? Such thinking is what makes the Youth lose their voice in Government. What makes you think that just because your "older" you know everything? Seriously, the Youth has been shunned from the HEAVILY CORRUPT political process long enough!!! That's messed up thinking right there. Are we going to give up our voice for the RICH FAT CATS IN WALL.ST?

And you proved my point on the youths of America. Try re-reading what I wrote, instead of takiing things as an insult. I never said that the youth must be kept out of the loop. Not even close. I did say, that Triforce correctly noted, that the youths are ignorant of what goes on inside of the real world. Meaning, the youth doesn't own businesses. The youth doesn't pay taxes. The youth, most at least, doesn't have jobs to pay taxes, or to support others. No, not helping out the parents,I mean paying their own taxes. The youth aren't traders. They can ONLY form opinions on things they look up, things they watch on the news, and reasearch. That can take you far, but because things don't afect you,personally, you won't have the clear understanding of an adult.

Also, I never said that I was any difference, I was correctly noting on something I have seen. To say that I feel I am better is very,very immature thinking. Bad enough you mistook my words, but I figured the young would. This is just what I mean about the youth. Almost all youth finds the government corrupt, yet can only reason with wild theories. And anyone that is rich is fatcats.

EDIT:Wait, I even included myself with my summaries of the youth in politics. So where are you getting this from?

Volkner's Apprentice October 8th, 2008 9:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4015664)
And you proved my point on the youths of America. Try re-reading what I wrote, instead of takiing things as an insult. I never said that the youth must be kept out of the loop. Not even close. I did say, that Triforce correctly noted, that the youths are ignorant of what goes on inside of the real world. Meaning, the youth doesn't own businesses. The youth doesn't pay taxes. The youth, most at least, doesn't have jobs to pay taxes, or to support others. No, not helping out the parents,I mean paying their own taxes. The youth aren't traders. They can ONLY form opinions on things they look up, things they watch on the news, and reasearch. That can take you far, but because things don't afect you,personally, you won't have the clear understanding of an adult.

Also, I never said that I was any difference, I was correctly noting on something I have seen. To say that I feel I am better is very,very immature thinking. Bad enough you mistook my words, but I figured the young would. This is just what I mean about the youth. Almost all youth finds the government corrupt, yet can only reason with wild theories. And anyone that is rich is fatcats.

EDIT:Wait, I even included myself with my summaries of the youth in politics. So where are you getting this from?

I can almost completely agree with that statement too, sims. I mean honestly, I'm 18. Legal? Sure, but does that mean I'm fully educated oh how to pay taxes, run a business, amongst a wide variety of everything people have to get to knowing when they get into the real world? Hell no. I'm just an average college student trying to get into a better university right now, I'm focused on that as well as maintaining a part-time job to help my parents out with car insurance and keeping myself in shape, social, and well-versed in all of my interest areas. The youth of America cannot fully grasp what these issues completely encompass because when it comes right down to it, there's no other learning method but experience. That's the bottom line-you have to do, touch, feel, get angry, get stressed, get confused, be enlightened, be focused, be determined, and everything else on the emotional roller coaster called Life. You can't just say "my dad taught me this" or "Oh I watch and hear about that all the time on the news" and call yourself well-versed on the matters at hand.

As much as I like having the ability to vote the moment I turn eighteen, it's painfully obvious the majority of my peers don't use this right to their advantage. I've studied the issues, I've weighed the sides which is ten times more than the average student at my school (thankfully, though, this being such an important election, most of my friends, classmates and neighbors have really gotten into things and are taking sides/learning/etc. which I think is a good start.) In the end, however, I still feel as if an overwhelming percentage of the issues cannot possibly be grasped by my brain nor that of anyone who is eighteen years of age in these United States because we just. haven't. been. there. period.

To top it all off, things are never going to just hit you upside the head like a bag of bricks and suddenly you're an expert on politics, big business, the economy as a whole, global everything, etc. It's a gradual process and a lot of such things can be difficult to start learning, let alone master by age twenty.

/Circa October 9th, 2008 12:13 AM

Bill Clinton coming back to finish what he started through other people?
I'm surprised he's still alive. Not for long >;D!

sims796 October 9th, 2008 5:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volkner's Apprentice (Post 4016171)
I can almost completely agree with that statement too, sims. I mean honestly, I'm 18. Legal? Sure, but does that mean I'm fully educated oh how to pay taxes, run a business, amongst a wide variety of everything people have to get to knowing when they get into the real world? Hell no. I'm just an average college student trying to get into a better university right now, I'm focused on that as well as maintaining a part-time job to help my parents out with car insurance and keeping myself in shape, social, and well-versed in all of my interest areas. The youth of America cannot fully grasp what these issues completely encompass because when it comes right down to it, there's no other learning method but experience. That's the bottom line-you have to do, touch, feel, get angry, get stressed, get confused, be enlightened, be focused, be determined, and everything else on the emotional roller coaster called Life. You can't just say "my dad taught me this" or "Oh I watch and hear about that all the time on the news" and call yourself well-versed on the matters at hand.

As much as I like having the ability to vote the moment I turn eighteen, it's painfully obvious the majority of my peers don't use this right to their advantage. I've studied the issues, I've weighed the sides which is ten times more than the average student at my school (thankfully, though, this being such an important election, most of my friends, classmates and neighbors have really gotten into things and are taking sides/learning/etc. which I think is a good start.) In the end, however, I still feel as if an overwhelming percentage of the issues cannot possibly be grasped by my brain nor that of anyone who is eighteen years of age in these United States because we just. haven't. been. there. period.

To top it all off, things are never going to just hit you upside the head like a bag of bricks and suddenly you're an expert on politics, big business, the economy as a whole, global everything, etc. It's a gradual process and a lot of such things can be difficult to start learning, let alone master by age twenty.

Thank you, you, how does it go, hit the nail on the head? Original reasearch can only ttake you so far. There is nothing wrong with learning the issues as a young, and staying on top of the game in politics. Just please remember, that until you get a job, pay taxes, maybe support a family, hell, even yourself, you do not have all the answers. You can only watch the carnage, and because the young feels that they know much, they usually have "all the answers", leading to democraic beliefs. M+

BTW, democrats FTW. I said it.

Joey the Cockroach October 9th, 2008 6:56 AM

if i could, i would possibly vote for Barack Obama because i think he can make a big difference. i think he would do extremely well as President.

sims796 October 9th, 2008 2:57 PM

Oh, I meant that. I hate everyone younger. Hence my high school nickname, "Grampa". Even in college, I've been called bitter like an old man. Always with their Myspace, and their hippity-hop music, and their MP3s & 123s.

That said, this has been a pretty pissy election thus far.

Netto Azure October 9th, 2008 4:54 PM

Ok real replies...
 
Ok I am restating and retracting my former comments since now I could see our misunderstanding. Also I was just making spontanious comments since I barely had the time to comment and was just skimming through the replies. Not I have 30 Minutes to clear this up. New Comments in Bold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4014286)
I *kinda* meant both the democratic & the youth are out of the loop, but you explained it much better, especially since I had to re-read it twice =D.

I think I may be democratic, I haven't decided. But no matter what the party, it is far too important to look outside the ass or the trunk, and do original reasearch. The youth of today has far too much time on their hands, thinking they can understand everything about the world through the news & the internets. And 97% of the internets is porn, so there that goes. And don't get me started on those liberal youths. Rebublican youth actually annoy me more.

I just hate young people >=[

I agree that experience in "real" life is needed for us to understand how things actually work. I don't think that simply reasaerching and reading about life is enough for us to understand how it works. Politics on the other hand CAN be influenced for the better if you work and pressure the government enough that's what we were talking about weren't we?.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4015664)
And you proved my point on the youths of America. Try re-reading what I wrote, instead of takiing things as an insult. I never said that the youth must be kept out of the loop. Not even close. I did say, that Triforce correctly noted, that the youths are ignorant of what goes on inside of the real world. Meaning, the youth doesn't own businesses. The youth doesn't pay taxes. The youth, most at least, doesn't have jobs to pay taxes, or to support others. No, not helping out the parents,I mean paying their own taxes. The youth aren't traders. They can ONLY form opinions on things they look up, things they watch on the news, and reasearch. That can take you far, but because things don't afect you,personally, you won't have the clear understanding of an adult.

Also, I never said that I was any difference, I was correctly noting on something I have seen. To say that I feel I am better is very,very immature thinking. Bad enough you mistook my words, but I figured the young would. This is just what I mean about the youth. Almost all youth finds the government corrupt, yet can only reason with wild theories. And anyone that is rich is fatcats.

EDIT:Wait, I even included myself with my summaries of the youth in politics. So where are you getting this from?

Reading that short fictional novel "Flowers for Algernon", proves your point that growing intellectually is not enough to understand the world. You need both emotional growth and experience for you to truly understand, even just a little bit, on how GREY the world really is. I apologize again for the misunderstanding. I know that not every rich person is corrupt. Stereotypes of any kind is degrading to the hard work one individual does to get where they are, my former comment just shows my flaws as a human being, having stereotypes of people or a certain group. I admit to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volkner's Apprentice (Post 4016171)
I can almost completely agree with that statement too, sims. I mean honestly, I'm 18. Legal? Sure, but does that mean I'm fully educated oh how to pay taxes, run a business, amongst a wide variety of everything people have to get to knowing when they get into the real world? Hell no. I'm just an average college student trying to get into a better university right now, I'm focused on that as well as maintaining a part-time job to help my parents out with car insurance and keeping myself in shape, social, and well-versed in all of my interest areas. The youth of America cannot fully grasp what these issues completely encompass because when it comes right down to it, there's no other learning method but experience. That's the bottom line-you have to do, touch, feel, get angry, get stressed, get confused, be enlightened, be focused, be determined, and everything else on the emotional roller coaster called Life. You can't just say "my dad taught me this" or "Oh I watch and hear about that all the time on the news" and call yourself well-versed on the matters at hand.

As much as I like having the ability to vote the moment I turn eighteen, it's painfully obvious the majority of my peers don't use this right to their advantage. I've studied the issues, I've weighed the sides which is ten times more than the average student at my school (thankfully, though, this being such an important election, most of my friends, classmates and neighbors have really gotten into things and are taking sides/learning/etc. which I think is a good start.) In the end, however, I still feel as if an overwhelming percentage of the issues cannot possibly be grasped by my brain nor that of anyone who is eighteen years of age in these United States because we just. haven't. been. there. period.

To top it all off, things are never going to just hit you upside the head like a bag of bricks and suddenly you're an expert on politics, big business, the economy as a whole, global everything, etc. It's a gradual process and a lot of such things can be difficult to start learning, let alone master by age twenty.

As I said earlier I agree that us Youth need experience. But today's world is too specialized and the adults are too confortable to what they have that they just want to hang on to it. Seriously some people are not even bothering to look at the issues, the backgrounds of the candidates, and just care for what happens within their own backyard. What's the use of all that experience then? Do we just blindly follow what the media spin says or the candidates mudslinging? Or do we use technology to understand things better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4016625)
Thank you, you, how does it go, hit the nail on the head? Original reasearch can only take you so far. There is nothing wrong with learning the issues as a young, and staying on top of the game in politics. Just please remember, that until you get a job, pay taxes, maybe support a family, hell, even yourself, you do not have all the answers. You can only watch the carnage, and because the young feels that they know much, they usually have "all the answers", leading to democraic beliefs. M+

BTW, democrats FTW. I said it.

I restate my point. I don't believe the Youth has all the answers. But that also applies to adults as well. Do our politicians have all the answers? No. But we are lucky to have them to take that burden on their conscience of knowing the morally questionable things they do to get things done or moving forward. Also why should us youth just "watch the carnage"? I have raised that point since that is what my Mother keeps on saying due to me paying attention to this election. She keeps on saying "Why don't you become a politician?" I say NO, because Politicians sell their souls and beliefs for the power of compromise. I know that the World is GREY much to my dismay, we could see it everyday. My mom says "Don't lie" But I can see them doing that, isn't that hypocritical?
But us Youth still have uncrushed ideals and while we still have it we must use our power of protest to get people to listen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4017904)
Oh, I meant that. I hate everyone younger. Hence my high school nickname, "Grampa". Even in college, I've been called bitter like an old man. Always with their Myspace, and their hippity-hop music, and their MP3s & 123s.

That said, this has been a pretty pissy election thus far.

LOL :P
Your right the age gap and technological difference can make things look different. But please understand that the Youth are people too. They just want to take things slow before we start worrying about the problems of "real" life. While we still have the free time to pay attention to Global affairs, we must use it for the betterment of Society. Because once you get older their is just so many domestic problems for you to have the time to do real reaserch on how Global Things work.

Please dont hate the youth. Please understand our positions.
I just didn't have the "free time" that you were talking about. High School comes first. Why do I even bother to go to school if I didn't want to learn how the world works. Also again, I apologize.

What do you mean "Pissy" election? :D

sims796 October 9th, 2008 5:07 PM

Those are all youthful opinions, that will change with age. I'm not reading all that, far too much >=[. But as we said, those opinions won't nearly be the same when you go out there. Adults may not hhave all the answers,but they damn sure know more than the young. & I don't mean those special, "out of the loop" adults, I mean real working, striving adults, having to support a family or just themselves, those that own businesses & those whose job depends on this stock crash, or the nex pres. As I said, I never mentioned that the young only "watches the carnage", and I don't really feel like mentioning it again, but I will. We can keep ourselves informed, but it will never match experience. And as I keep saying, over 9000 tyemz, we can still have a voice, but their is a reason the young cannot vote. We can try our best to get the message across, however, I never disputed that. Well, yaw'll can try. I can vote. Burn. Epic burn. (Although I said it 9001 teimz, I never made it this clear. Didn't think I'd have too)

I always hear how "corrupt" politicians are, yet I never get a clear reasoning as to why. It usually comes from those that are in high school. It is never that black & white. Do we see the world as grey, or do we only see what we can watch on the news?

Those domestic problems are what shape America, and is what makes the average American voter's (foriegn or otherwise) opinion.

No harm done.

Netto Azure October 9th, 2008 6:25 PM

Eh....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4018303)
Those are all youthful opinions, that will change with age. I'm not reading all that, far too much >=[. But as we said, those opinions won't nearly be the same when you go out there. Adults may not have all the answers, but they damn sure know more than the young. & I don't mean those special, "out of the loop" adults, I mean real working, striving adults, having to support a family or just themselves, those that own businesses & those whose job depends on this stock crash, or the nex pres. As I said, I never mentioned that the young only "watches the carnage", and I don't really feel like mentioning it again, but I will. We can keep ourselves informed, but it will never match experience. And as I keep saying, over 9000 tyemz, we can still have a voice, but their is a reason the young cannot vote. We can try our best to get the message across, however, I never disputed that. Well, yaw'll can try. I can vote. Burn. Epic burn. (Although I said it 9001 teimz, I never made it this clear. Didn't think I'd have too)

I always hear how "corrupt" politicians are, yet I never get a clear reasoning as to why. It usually comes from those that are in high school. It is never that black & white. Do we see the world as grey, or do we only see what we can watch on the news?

Those domestic problems are what shape America, and is what makes the average American voter's (foriegn or otherwise) opinion.

No harm done.

Eh, Ok your right. That disillusion to the world you are describing has already started to occur to me. If you asked me Political questions on the 2006 Elections, I would have blindly stated: "The Republicans are right we should stay in the Middle East to fight the terrorists. So I support the Republicans." I keet on repeating, Yes, we need experience but we need to be also aware. Also I've already repeated many times the world IS GREY. :D Hmm...My classmates were looking at me funny when I started saying such things. They think I'm weird for being realistic that life is hard.You can vote but we can PROTEST (LOL :P) heh...I just want this to be more positive.

Want to talk about corruption? "Why do we still don't have Universal Healthcare?" when every other "Modern" Western Country does. The problem is were talking about a huge amount of money. But we have the the money (Medicare, Medicaid), so people hold back. What about those pork barrel spending John McCain keeps talking about, what about those last-minute add-ons to Apropriations Bills. Hay...So how are politicians not corrupt? It's part of human nature.

I'm just tired now. -_- Letz be friendz ^_^ and talk about Pocket Monsters...

sims796 October 9th, 2008 6:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 4018557)
Eh, Ok your right. That disillusion to the world you are describing has already started to occur to me. If you asked me Political questions on the 2006 Elections, I would have blindly stated: "The Republicans are right we should stay in the Middle East to fight the terrorists. So I support the Republicans." I keet on repeating, Yes, we need experience but we need to be also aware. Also I've already repeated many times the world IS GREY. :D Hmm...My classmates were looking at me funny when I started saying such things. They think I'm weird for being realistic that life is hard.You can vote but we can PROTEST (LOL :P) heh...I just want this to be more positive.

Want to talk about corruption? "Why do we still don't have Universal Healthcare?" when every other "Modern" Western Country does. The problem is were talking about a huge amount of money. But we have the the money (Medicare, Medicaid), so people hold back. What about those pork barrel spending John McCain keeps talking about, what about those last-minute add-ons to Apropriations Bills. Hay...So how are politicians not corrupt? It's part of human nature.

I'm just tired now. -_- Letz be friendz ^_^ and talk about Pocket Monsters...

And as I said, more than three times, that you need both experience & to be aware. Don't make me repeat it, please.

Quote:

We can keep ourselves informed, but it will never match experience. And as I keep saying, over 9000 tyemz, we can still have a voice, but their is a reason the young cannot vote. We can try our best to get the message across, however, I never disputed that. Well, yaw'll can try. I can vote. Burn. Epic burn. (Although I said it 9001 teimz, I never made it this clear. Didn't think I'd have too)
a

So don't repeat it yourself. All you are doing is repeating everything I say, only in a simplier way. I won't go all multi quoting, as i laxz teh knowledge.

We are in a national debt. Been so for a while. I won't go into detail, as I don't have em' all at the time. We do not have the money. Hell, there was just a huge Wall Street backlash, affecting everyone in the US, trader or not. The 7 billion (million?) dollar bail out failed, as we just don't have the funds for it. We do not have the money. I'm not saying politics isn't corrupt, and that everything is peachy keen, but at the same time, things are not a simple as you think. It cannot just be chalked down to just "they're corrupted, and are doing it for teh cash".

You're just proving what I mean. I keep sayin gthis, while taking on your points, but it doesn't get through exactly, and it ends up with you nearly repeating everything. Ironically, the elder members got what I meant perfectly.

TRIFORCE89 October 9th, 2008 6:57 PM

I think we need all need to watch the Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington episode of the Simpsons XD

sims796 October 9th, 2008 7:00 PM

Actually, Brian's ex put it perfectly. "I think the government does things we don't know about, and truthishly, we should accept that."

A quote of epic win.

Netto Azure October 10th, 2008 7:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4018607)
And as I said, more than three times, that you need both experience & to be aware. Don't make me repeat it, please.

a

So don't repeat it yourself. All you are doing is repeating everything I say, only in a simplier way. I won't go all multi quoting, as i laxz teh knowledge.

We are in a national debt. Been so for a while. I won't go into detail, as I don't have em' all at the time. We do not have the money. Hell, there was just a huge Wall Street backlash, affecting everyone in the US, trader or not. The 7 billion (million?) dollar bail out failed, as we just don't have the funds for it. We do not have the money. I'm not saying politics isn't corrupt, and that everything is peachy keen, but at the same time, things are not a simple as you think. It cannot just be chalked down to just "they're corrupted, and are doing it for teh cash".

You're just proving what I mean. I keep sayin gthis, while taking on your points, but it doesn't get through exactly, and it ends up with you nearly repeating everything. Ironically, the elder members got what I meant perfectly.

Uh...hay, why were we arguing again. Ok your message went through. Don't worry, I know not all polticians are in it for the money. I'm not chalking it down to "Every politician is a bad guy" I know many of them are doing it for the good of the constituents. But they have to work within the structured system so they appear "bad" as such. Why do have to make it appear as if I'm over simplifying everything and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Yes, yes, experience, experience, I know about the budget deficit. Why have we gotten this deficit? The external answer is obvious. Also the bail-out hasn't failed yet, it's still being implemented. Most of the Stock Market crash is due to fear and that people are going away from stocks and stashing their money away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 (Post 4018619)
I think we need all need to watch the Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington episode of the Simpsons XD

Funny episode, the Stereotype disillusionment to Washington Politics. IF ONLY getting caught was that easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4018627)
Actually, Brian's ex put it perfectly. "I think the government does things we don't know about, and truthishly, we should accept that."

A quote of epic win.

xP This discussion has been constructive. I see parallels between this and the old Obama vs. McCain experience arguments. Yes, "We should accept that" :P So let's put this behind us and talk about the issues.

Well we have gotten off-topic. So the Stock Market is still crashing, everybody is still gittery.

Well any other topic you guys want to bring up, both candidates have devolved into mudslinging for the last month of the campaign.
We have already talked about Off-shore oil drilling, Healthcare, Education, Energy Independence, Immigration, the Economy, the candidates "skeleton's" in the closets.
So bring up topics.

sims796 October 10th, 2008 8:45 AM

We are arguing because this is a debate thread. I don't want camp fire songs & puppy dogs in a debate thread >=[. We...debate. Says it in the title.

We never gotten off topic, this is a legitimate issue that must be discussed.

Yeah, the bail-out, the bailout that is >9000 dollars (in Mexican money, of course) failed, and we are looking ito alternative ways of dealing with the crash. Global leader gete together & such. Now, how would this affect the common people at hand? There is no obvious answer to the cause of the cash. No fat cats involved directly, at least, and no one really gains from this. I'd like to hear the obvious external answer, that goes beyond "corruption".

As I said, this is a legitimate topic, not an off-topic argument. "The inexperience of todays youths may lead to blah blah blah".

Allstories October 10th, 2008 10:41 AM

I've been hearing from people I know (mostly in swing states) about receiving a DVD of this movie in the mail:

http://static.flickr.com/74/205817598_62708d72ab.jpg

Good grief. We sure don't mess around when it comes to propaganda. Apparently, they did something similar last election with United 93. I doubt you'd see something like this anywhere else in the world.

Raff October 10th, 2008 10:56 AM

Heres my answer...

I believe with both Candidates. BUT I also Believe in the war..what if they INVADE us, and then fight in our country destroying our stuff? exactly why it is not available now. YES the terrorist are IN AFGHANISTAN. But we also need people, who support the freedoms. Such as, The Right to Bare Arms..and Freedom of Speech. Those seem, to have seemed to have deteriorated over the years..how can we call AMERICA a FREE COUNTRY when it is so twisted? And yes, we need the right to bare arms..

TRIFORCE89 October 10th, 2008 3:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4020020)
I've been hearing from people I know (mostly in swing states) about receiving a DVD of this movie in the mail:

http://static.flickr.com/74/205817598_62708d72ab.jpg

Good grief. We sure don't mess around when it comes to propaganda. Apparently, they did something similar last election with United 93. I doubt you'd see something like this anywhere else in the world.

Last year's Ontario Provincial election. The Liberals were up for re-election and after slapping Ontario with the largest health tax in Ontario's history after saying he wouldn't raise the tax at all, it looked like a Progressive Conservative win was a sure thing. However, the PC candidate took an unpopular stance on something.

In a nut shell, here in Canada public schools and Catholic schools are publicly funded. Catholic schools are only really funded to keep the French population happy, so the probability Catholic funding being stopped is slim-to-non. So, the UN stepped in and said that we either have to stop Catholic funding or fund other private and specialty schools because it's unfair otherwise. Not-funding Catholic schools is not an option, so that only leaves you with one choice - funding them all...and that' what the PC candidate backed.

Mind you, the bit about the UN never really went through the media like it should have. Instead, the Liberals spread it around as "public funding for religions" and in some cases Liberal members and supporters when going door to door in their riding would ask the potential-voter if they felt comfortable with their tax-dollars supporting Muslim schools specifically. That is low and that is wrong and for some reason that flew. The PCs lost big time and the leader candidate didn't even get elected in his own riding all because of this non-issue. And one of the first things that happened when the Liberals got re-elected? Why publicly funded black specialty schools of course. <_<

Netto Azure October 10th, 2008 3:59 PM

heh...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4019761)
We are arguing because this is a debate thread. I don't want camp fire songs & puppy dogs in a debate thread >=[. We...debate. Says it in the title.

We never gotten off topic, this is a legitimate issue that must be discussed.

Yeah, the bail-out, the bailout that is >9000 dollars (in Mexican money, of course) failed, and we are looking ito alternative ways of dealing with the crash. Global leader get together & such. Now, how would this affect the common people at hand? There is no obvious answer to the cause of the crash. No fat cats involved directly, at least, and no one really gains from this. I'd like to hear the obvious external answer, that goes beyond "corruption".

As I said, this is a legitimate topic, not an off-topic argument. "The inexperience of todays youths may lead to blah blah blah".

Ok. I agree us youth still neds to learn a lot of things. But since this is a "Representative Democracy" please don't smash our "idealistic" view of the world. :P
Well anyways the Central Banks around the world did get together yesterday to "deal" with this through the usual rate cuts. A lot of reasons contributed to the crash as I said earlier so the blame can be handed around pretty easily.

As for obvious reasons for the budget deficit: The general War on Terror (Defense Expenditure), The general "Bail-out" of the Financial Market (2FM, AIG, Bear Sterns, etc.), [Social Programs (Social Security, Medicaid, Medical) Don't get me wrong I'm for these social programs, just pointing out how expensive they are generally]

Edit: The National Debt clock in New York has run out of space. Just shows you how much "change" the past 8 years has brought us.

sims796 October 10th, 2008 6:42 PM

Bah. War on Terror. Moar leik war on ninjas, amirite? I swear, I saw Ganadorf give Garaa a ride in that picture. And doesn't the one in the right look liek he's developing hand signals?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 4018557)
Want to talk about corruption? "Why do we still don't have Universal Healthcare?" when every other "Modern" Western Country does. The problem is were talking about a huge amount of money. But we have the the money (Medicare, Medicaid), so people hold back. What about those pork barrel spending John McCain keeps talking about, what about those last-minute add-ons to Apropriations Bills. Hay...So how are politicians not corrupt? It's part of human nature.


It's getting a bit hard to understand...where you stand. You say one thing, then swap to the opposite, and repeat just what I have on my post. It's confusing.

Well, regardless, I'm glad that this whole crash may blow over if all goes well. Of course, things are never that simple, but they aren't always complicated. Deep...I r an geneous. And this whole "pull out" thing people keep saying, well, it also ain't that easy. While my views are largley democratic, we lose the --how to say this for uderstanding-- "repsect" of the the other nations, and democracy as a whole takes a burn.

Aurafire October 10th, 2008 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 4020924)

Edit: The National Debt clock in New York has run out of space. Just shows you how much "change" the past 8 years has brought us.

Sure the war on terror is going to cost a lot of money. It's a war, for crying out loud. If it's not well funded, the cost will be paid for in American lives. Some might argue that the war wasn't necessary in the first place. I'll disagree with that, but I think we can all agree that the war was mismanaged and could have been dealt with a lot more efficiently than this. This might sound cruel to some, but if you can remember very early in the war, we carried out a very many bombing raids on various terrorist hide outs. Well that's all well and good, but why did we stop? Yes, the risk of collateral damage is much greater, but I'll tell you what: Our selectivity with the areas we bomb has cost us billions of dollars and thousands of American lives. One could argue that a more aggressive approach would have yielded much quicker results...yes the collateral damage would have been much greater and many innocent people would have died. But think about the 6 or so years we have been fighting in the Middle East, and think about the massive cost of this war. With greater time, more people are guaranteed to be killed, both soldiers and civilians. Once again, this will sounds cruel to some, but I would have favored much more aggressive bombing raids and decreased selectivity on the areas that were raided. If there was even a hint of terrorist activity in a certain area, you can bet I would want our military to go in hot and heavy.

Now before everyone jumps down my throat, think about it: More civilian lives lost in the long term. Yes, that is a down side, but think about all the American lives we would have saved. Think about all the money we wouldn't have to spend for years of of combat on the ground. Think about all the civilian lives LONG TERM that would have been saved. We obviously would have had to send in troops, but the job would have been much quicker and easier with less terrorists to root out. We've been in the Middle East for years now, uncovering hide outs and such, and it has cost billions to keep the troops well funded. It just goes to show how deep their networks a woven in. I hate to say it, but the strategy we've been using for the past however many years was not the right one. This war could have been over a year after it started.

I suppose now a days a strategy like mine is considered too violent and indecent for todays moral compass, but I invite everyone to look back at the end of World War II, when we dropped the H bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Something like 100000 innocent Japanese lives were lost! That is a staggering number, and at first glance could be considered too hefty a cost. But think about how many American lives were saved. Instead of an invasion, which would have cost thousands and thousands of troops and an incredible amount of money, we did the cruel thing and killed the innocent. But guess what? We won the war.

Meh....that's just what I think. Feel free to comment, and don't hate me too much =P.

Anti October 10th, 2008 7:29 PM

Sarah Palin is enough of a reason not to vote for any candidate, let alone McCain.

I know this thread is for issues, but I feel Palin IS an issue. She believes that humans coexisted with dinosaurs and that the earth is 6000 years old (if I remember that right). She wants creationism to be taught in public schools. I'm sorry, what? That's a total religious bias, something that I'm pretty sure is supposed to be a big no-no for our government. I'm Christian myself, but seriously, creationism education is the biggest joke. I'm cool with fundamentalist Christians believing what they want - we all have a right to have such opinions and beliefs. Forcing such views onto children going to public schools is incredibly narrow-minded and stupid.

She can't even go away from her talking points without self-destructing, as the interviews with Couric and other anchors showed us. Her foreign policy "experience" is actually humorous. I think it's pretty hard to argue that seeing Russia from your house is foreign policy experience. Bush could see Mexico from his house and look how respected we are around the world now. Palin also essentially lied about the selling the plane on Ebay story and a lot of what she said in that RNC speech.

She clearly lacks experience, something that McCain has SLAMMED Obama for the entire campaign. I personally don't think experience means a thing (just look at Lincoln and Washington), but if you're going to bash the opponent for lacking experience, don't pick someone with even less experience (and the little experience Palin has already has her linked to scandal). It's funny what you can learn from watching a little John Stewart, and that isn't even serious reporting, or reporting at all.

Also, I know the VP is supposed to be like "alpha attack dog 1.1 beta" or whatever, but I think the campaign just might be taking the mudslinging a little too far. First of all, both campaigns need to cut the crap and post negative advertising that's actually TRUE, especially McCain. But when I say taking it too far, I'm talking about the "Obama is a terrorist" and "kill him!" cries at the rallies that have gone ignored by the campaign. That needs to be STOPPED. Period. Also, one of Palin's more recent rally appearances couldn't help but rub off on me as though she was implying Obama is a terrorist or works with them? you can say "well she wasn't saying that," but "Obama pals around with terrorists" is enough for me. John McCain is a better man than that. He should be above all of this, and so should Obama.

That's just my opinion on the election. I just don't expect McCain to make it to age 76, and I fear a Palin presidency more than about anything. Palin being president would be worse than a third term for Bush, which is why I wouldn't vote for McCain. If Romney was McCain's VP pick, I really wouldn't press for Obama as much as I do now.

So now that my "Palin is an incompetent, narrow-minded disaster" rant is finished, I can move on to the other issues.

Economy: Don't trust either candidate to fix things. I'd probably go with Obama just because McCain seems even more clueless than Obama on the matter, though they're both pretty poor in my opinion.

Global Warming: One of the most important issues to me, I don't think either candidate has seriously addressed the topic. I actually think they both have decent plans for it though, at least better than what Bush is doing for the environment, or more like what Bush has done to the environment.

Health Care: I don't know enough about this to comment, so I won't act like I do. It isn't really of importance to me for now but I'm sure it will be, haha.

War in Iraq: I don't know what to think. I just want the least amount of troops to die as possible without giving up too much (though I'm not sure what exactly that is).

Offshore Drilling: Totally useless. It only damages surrounding habitats and wildlife and doesn't really address the energy problems we have, it just band-aids them (and the band-aid won't even come for awhile). Sorry, I just find the whole "drill baby drill" thing a political device that neither candidate seriously believes will help.

There are other issues, but I'm really not in the position to comment on them. In case you haven't figured it out, I support Obama and am the least Conservative person you'll find. That last point kind of adds fuel to my anti-Palin fire, so to speak. :P

That being said, I'm not really a huge fan of Obama. I like him, but he's not amazing or anything. I generally don't like McCain but I don't hate him or anything. Then there's Palin...my least favorite presidential candidate ever, and she beat out Andrew Jackson. If you know my views on Jackson's presidency, you know that's saying a lot.

Eh, I'm not really optimistic either way. As long as we avoid a Palin presidency, I'd consider this year's election a success (sad how low Bush has raised the bar for a successful election lol). so yeah, Palin is the deciding factor for me. I really hope people look into her and see just how bad things could turn out...

Just my view on things. I kind of wish Hillary was still around.

TRIFORCE89 October 10th, 2008 8:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti Pop Culture Warrior (Post 4021608)
Also, I know the VP is supposed to be like "alpha attack dog 1.1 beta" or whatever, but I think the campaign just might be taking the mudslinging a little too far. First of all, both campaigns need to cut the crap and post negative advertising that's actually TRUE, especially McCain. But when I say taking it too far, I'm talking about the "Obama is a terrorist" and "kill him!" cries at the rallies that have gone ignored by the campaign. That needs to be STOPPED. Period. Also, one of Palin's more recent rally appearances couldn't help but rub off on me as though she was implying Obama is a terrorist or works with them? you can say "well she wasn't saying that," but "Obama pals around with terrorists" is enough for me. John McCain is a better man than that. He should be above all of this, and so should Obama.

John McCain is a better man than that. Today, at one of McCain's rallies, a couple of people were saying completely false and terrible things about Obama. Things like "We're afraid of him", "You NEED to beat him", "He's an Arab", etc.

McCain did not agree or encourage any of that. In fact, he immediately corrected them. McCain told them he never said that, that he doesn't encourage that, that he knows Obama, that Obama is a wonerful family man, and that put simply what they believe is totally false.

McCain and Obama don't hate each other. They're probably friends or at least chummy. But, we're late into the campaign now and that's when things get dirty. But, when things do get way out of hand they do stand up for each other.

Aurafire October 10th, 2008 8:53 PM

Everyone missed my post X(

But Triforce brings up an excellent point. Just because some McCain supporters hold false accusations of Obama's past doesn't mean he himself believes them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti Pop Culture Warrior (Post 4021608)

Offshore Drilling: Totally useless. It only damages surrounding habitats and wildlife and doesn't really address the energy problems we have, it just band-aids them (and the band-aid won't even come for awhile). Sorry, I just find the whole "drill baby drill" thing a political device that neither candidate seriously believes will help.

I was almost going to you post slide, but I just have to comment on the off shore drilling thing. The benefits clearly outweigh the losses, as we have new ways of drilling that have less of an impact on the environment. We'd be drilling in such an incredibly minute part of the ocean, the impacts on the environment would barely even be noticeable. Of course drilling doesn't address the whole problem (Hello, we're running out of oil), but there is little reason why the environmental risks out-weigh the gains, and there is certainly no reason as to why it wouldn't be beneficial economically. It's part of the solution for energy independence, not the whole solution. In case you haven't noticed, our economy needs oil like we need oxygen: Without it, the entire country would collapse.

And don't argue full-on alternative energy, because there's no way we have the technology to do that (If we did, we wouldn't be arguing this right now).

Anti October 11th, 2008 1:09 PM

Gah, didn't mean to imply that McCain supports the awful things the supporters say lol. Yes, I can't agree more there. I wasn't aware McCain stopped them, but I know Palin didn't.

About offshore drilling, it might be because I'm a global warming junkie but I really don't like the idea of drilling when it doesn't even produce oil for a few years (I don't remember the exact number). I don't see the benefit of only increasing environmental problems when only temporarily prolonging the time we still have oil. For energy independence, I totally agree that we need a plan. I just don't think drilling is going to help a whole lot. I understand it's only a part of the plan, I just don't think it's necessary.

If and when the economy rebounds, I really hope energy independence and the environment become more prominant issues since they are very important.

I live in the swing state of Ohio so every college football game or CBS Tuesday night we get a whole load of those negative ads. That's probably why I'm so annoyed by them ;)

Netto Azure October 11th, 2008 3:29 PM

Replies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4020020)
I've been hearing from people I know (mostly in swing states) about receiving a DVD of this movie in the mail:

http://static.flickr.com/74/205817598_62708d72ab.jpg

Good grief. We sure don't mess around when it comes to propaganda. Apparently, they did something similar last election with United 93. I doubt you'd see something like this anywhere else in the world.

Well the election is in the next 3 weeks, so negative ads bloom like mushrooms. Propaganda?, I could see the fear mongering. Yes, the terrorists are out there but we already have invested so much in the War on Terror already, what about the other issues?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4021437)
Bah. War on Terror. Moar leik war on ninjas, amirite? I swear, I saw Ganadorf give Garaa a ride in that picture. And doesn't the one in the right look liek he's developing hand signals?

It's getting a bit hard to understand...where you stand. You say one thing, then swap to the opposite, and repeat just what I have on my post. It's confusing.

Well, regardless, I'm glad that this whole crash may blow over if all goes well. Of course, things are never that simple, but they aren't always complicated. Deep...I r an geneous. And this whole "pull out" thing people keep saying, well, it also ain't that easy. While my views are largley democratic, we lose the --how to say this for uderstanding-- "repsect" of the the other nations, and democracy as a whole takes a burn.

Oh, I so sorry, I know that my position has started to look contradicting on my past posts. I'll try to clear it up since my positions on things have changed over the past month:

Off-Shore Oil Drilling: Yes, but it should only be a stop-gap measure until we develop new technologies. And it should only be a part of the larger plan.
War on Terror: I still am not sure. But focus must be moved to Afganistan since Pakistan is starting to become the Front-lines.
Healthcare: FULL TRUE UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE FOR ALL! SIMILAR TO OTHER WESTERN NATIONS!
Education: I'm not an expert but I agree that NCLB MUST be improved. A lot of people here are under NCLB.
Energy Independence: No-brainer, Fossil-fuels are finite, New technologies are needed. Emphasis on Hydrogen and Cheap Solar technologies.
Immigration: Touchy subject since I am one myself. Legal Immigration I fully support. Undocumented Immigration, Congress must pass comprehensive reform to streamline the process. (Wow. The McCain-Kennedy Bill of 2006 almost got us started...But eh...)
The Economy: I support the development of a mixed economy . When all hell broke lose this past month it just proves that pure laizze-fair policy is big No-no. Responsible Restrictions must be put in place that is appropriate for the 21st Century. The answer is not Socialism, Fascism, Mercantilism nor pure Laizze-fair. The free-market works, but oversight and restrictions must be in place.
The Candidates "Skeletons": It really depends on what things pop up from the past.
Foreign Policy: Diplomacy is a must, Military action should only be taken as a last resort.

We should start rebuilding our image to the World. But in this heavily multi-polar and interdependent world we should also listen to other nations and cooperate with them especially our allies.

Edit: I fully support Barack Obama and the Democratic Party of the United States.

LilLoveGirl October 12th, 2008 12:42 AM

It's almost time so I really think Obama will win!

sims796 October 12th, 2008 11:57 AM

I vote for the third party canadite, Cobra Commander. I really think that his brand of evil beliefs may really turn this country in the right direction.

This really gets on my nerves, and it's the "skeletons" withi each canadite. oestly, who gives a frick. If Bill wants to cheat on his wife, they have no right to disbarr him (that isn't the word I am looking for, could somebody help?) from office, as he has not usurped his position. The same goes with any other canadite. I don't give a shark what the frick Palin reads on her frickin' spare time, I really don't.

Netto Azure October 12th, 2008 12:54 PM

Replies...*Call the Wahhhmmmbulance* Wahhh!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4028045)
I vote for the third party canadite, Cobra Commander. I really think that his brand of evil beliefs may really turn this country in the right direction.

This really gets on my nerves, and it's the "skeletons" withi each canadite. oestly, who gives a frick. If Bill wants to cheat on his wife, they have no right to disbarr him (that isn't the word I am looking for, could somebody help?) from office, as he has not usurped his position. The same goes with any other canadite. I don't give a shark what the frick Palin reads on her frickin' spare time, I really don't.

LOL! How are we supposed to vote for Cobra Commander if he's hiding in his little ship of death underwater. We haven't even seen him campaign and the election is within 3 weeks. How are we supposed to support him if we don't know what his positions on the issues are? Anyways with the economy as it is, How could we still fund G.I. Joe to hunt the Cobras down and bring them out to campaign? They use some pretty expexsive equipment you know... :P (j/k)

Also my position on Climate Change: It's real and it must be fought responsibly with an emphasis on clean green technologies. :D

You mean "Impeach" Prez. Clinton (Part of Congress' power in the balancing act of the US Constitution) Ay...Don't remind me of the Clinton Administration...We could have done so many of our major issues today on that administration, so many missed opportunities. First, Hillary Clinton's drive for Universal Healthcare, Second, The Passage of the Kyoto Treaty which would have also started us on the path to Energy independence and fight Climate Change! Why did the Republicans have to shoot those down?
Why?!!! Argh!!! It's like a bunch of students procrastinating on their homework until the last minute!
Look at where we are now, playing catch-up on Energy Independence and the fight against Climate Change. 50+ Million Americans without Health insurance (Now even increasing with the economic meltdown.) Seriously even John McCain now wants everyone to have the money to buy health-insurance! TT^TT *sob*
I just want to bang my head against the wall until I start hallucinating about a Parallel Universe where we have Universal Healthcare and started fighting Climate Change much earlier....:(

Eh...As I said earlier, It depends on what pops up from their past....:\

sims796 October 12th, 2008 12:58 PM

Well, it is my understadning that Obama was friends with the terrorist who started 9/11, or something like that. That instantly maekz him a terroists, and that instantly maekz not fit to run this country.

Also, Mclain littered on 43 St two days ago, so he obviously doesn't care about our enviormental issues.


Yeah,, propaganda has been reduced to catty BS like that within the past few years, and the entire campain was a joke.

CHG-Swampert October 12th, 2008 12:59 PM

lol i sorry i'm freakin stupid. I just moved to America a while ago and haven't listened to a word they've said :P. However after looking at how it's going, i say Obama/Biden will win =/ Also, my parents (who miraculously know everything about it WTF?) are going for Obama but cannot vote since we are no fully citizens (FAIL). meh Americans are mean lol

(and for those who are wondering: I am NOT changing my location... i miss my home...)

Netto Azure October 13th, 2008 12:51 PM

Oh my...
 
And I thought the US $850 Billion bail-out was big. Look at the European Union's combined bailout amounts: about $1 Trillion+

BBC: Europe acts to strengthen banks...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7667342.stm

Also, finally Obama puts forth some kind of economic plan in writing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7667772.stm

Red1530 October 13th, 2008 6:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4028355)
Well, it is my understadning that Obama was friends with the terrorist who started 9/11, or something like that.

You are wrong. The terrorist is Bill Ayers, a domestic terrorist that founded the terrorist group, Weather Underground. One of their targets was the Pentagon, so that is were the 9/11 mix up is coming from.

In Ohio ACORN is currently under investigation for voter registration fraud. Senator Obama recently had to change a FEC to show that he payed an ACORN subsidiary for a get out the vote operation.

Today's Washington Times printed a story showing a connection between Senator Obama and Kenyan Prime Minister Raila Odinga. Mr. Odinga has connection to radical Muslims and participated in a 1982 coup attempt.

Netto Azure October 14th, 2008 9:35 AM

Please....
 
Watch the PBS Frontline Special Tonight!: The Choice 2008
An Independent Documentary on the 2 Prez. candidates.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/choice2008/

Check your local listings.

Just to emphasize, Google the truth behind the smears YOURSELF:
http://images.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/10/14/tomo/story.jpg

It really would be a long 3 weeks...Lucky, Canadians...(Another Minority Government?) You guys only had to endure a month of campaigning, and actually know who the party leaders are...3 Major Parties and 2 Minor Parties....D=

Red1530 October 15th, 2008 12:10 PM

Tonight is the third and last Presidential debate and it is about domestic policy. I hope that it is more lively then the second debate and the moderator ask other domestic policy questions besides the economy and health care like immigration and gun control.

Allstories October 15th, 2008 7:04 PM

This election in a nutshell:

http://dylanimages2.googlepages.com/mccainblergh.jpg

TRIFORCE89 October 15th, 2008 7:21 PM

OMG Floating head with a camera!

Tonight's debate was much more boring than the other two.

Aurafire October 15th, 2008 7:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 (Post 4037897)
OMG Floating head with a camera!

Tonight's debate was much more boring than the other two.

I disagree. I thought McCain did as best as he could of done under the circumstances, and both candidates were much more direct with their answers. But meh, that's just one person's perspective.

TRIFORCE89 October 15th, 2008 8:04 PM

I am so disappointed in McCain and just what his campaign has become. The best thing you can do in any situation is be yourself, not who others want you to be. He didn't get to run the campaign he wanted, it had to be the way the Republican base wanted and it just shot him right down the toilet.

There's a whole lot that I disagree with Obama about, but I'm going to be backing him.

Netto Azure October 16th, 2008 11:26 AM

Reply
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurafire (Post 4037908)
I disagree. I thought McCain did as best as he could of done under the circumstances, and both candidates were much more direct with their answers. But meh, that's just one person's perspective.

True...But the fundamentals of the election are already in Obama's favor...The debate was a lot more aggressive but neither one really talked about what programs to cut due to the economic crisis....again...

Aurafire October 16th, 2008 11:57 AM

McCain is the one supporting the spending freeze on mostly everything except for military and I forget what else. Obama talks about how he can heal the pain and make things better. AKA: Taxation corporations and small business owners that are the ones creating jobs in the first place. How can you create jobs when you're taxing the very people creating them???

Obama's plans don't make sense, and if people would just listen to what he's saying instead of becoming infatuated with his pretty words, they would realize it. Half of what he says is fluff to make him sound more attractive, and the other half is policies that...how do I put this lightly....DON'T WORK. McCain is absolutely right when he said that the absolute worst thing to do in a crisis like this is to raise taxes on anyone. Does anyone else see that that Obama is going to raise taxes on the very people who are most important to the survival of the economy? How can he say that his tax increase won't hurt small businesses when he's going to tax them over 50% of their total income?

He's also going to end tax cuts for businesses that ship jobs over-seas. Well that's all fine and dandy, but why do you think those businesses ship the jobs in the first place? Cheaper labor. Asking a company to not ship jobs is like asking them to not take free money. I'd do the exact same thing if it cut costs. Meanwhile, Obama will end their tax cuts. Does anyone know what those businesses are going to do when they're paying over 50% of their income to the government? They're going to cut jobs. It's common sense, really...but for some reason people just don't want to step back and think for ONE SECOND.

But hey, more power to him if he can simultaneously raise taxes AND create jobs, provide the country with free healthcare AND keep spending money and get us energy independent in 10 years WITHOUT tapping into every oil reserve we have. Somehow, I'm sensing epic fail. Anyone else?

Yeah, Obama's probably going to win the election. I'm not holding out much more hope for McCain. But it's going to be 4 years of hell. We'll just have to suffer through and wait for someone competent to run against him in 2012.

Rant = Complete.

Netto Azure October 16th, 2008 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurafire (Post 4039264)
But hey, more power to him if he can simultaneously raise taxes AND create jobs, provide the country with free healthcare AND keep spending money and get us energy independent in 10 years WITHOUT tapping into every oil reserve we have. Somehow, I'm sensing epic fail. Anyone else?

Yeah, Obama's probably going to win the election. I'm not holding out much more hope for McCain. But it's going to be 4 years of hell. We'll just have to suffer through and wait for someone competent to run against him in 2012.

Rant = Complete.

Heh...OMG Aura you're too...."uptight" don't make decisions until he's there.....

Midnight Beat October 16th, 2008 12:51 PM

I promised myself I wouldn't post here, but I've just gotta say this, That debate was a total JOKE. Both candidates were completely immature. "He did this", "He did that", "He said this", "He said that". My ten year old brother is more mature than both of them....combined. And what sucks is that those are our only choices. Neither of these politicians are ready to lead with the current state of this country. Ten years ago, they both would of be viable candidates, but not now, we need someone who really knows what they're doing.

The fact is that America has a rough four years ahead of them.

Allstories October 16th, 2008 1:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurafire (Post 4039264)
He's also going to end tax cuts for businesses that ship jobs over-seas. Well that's all fine and dandy, but why do you think those businesses ship the jobs in the first place? Cheaper labor. Asking a company to not ship jobs is like asking them to not take free money. I'd do the exact same thing if it cut costs. Meanwhile, Obama will end their tax cuts. Does anyone know what those businesses are going to do when they're paying over 50% of their income to the government? They're going to cut jobs. It's common sense, really...but for some reason people just don't want to step back and think for ONE SECOND.

I'm not sure I follow. If a company is sending jobs overseas, then haven't they effectively removed the jobs already? Why should we reward this? Obama's plan is to give tax cuts to companies that create new jobs. So basically, he's rewarding the companies that stimulate our economy and help the people in it instead of the ones that are leaving them to die in the gutter. Why is this wrong?

Midnight Beat October 16th, 2008 1:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4039581)
I'm not sure I follow. If a company is sending jobs overseas, then haven't they effectively removed the jobs already? Why should we reward this? Obama's plan is to give tax cuts to companies that create new jobs. So basically, he's rewarding the companies that stimulate our economy and help the people in it instead of the ones that are leaving them to die in the gutter. Why is this wrong?

Obama's plan is to cut taxes for the middle class. And yes, that does sound like a good idea if you take it at face value. By cutting taxes for the middle class you are only implementing a temporary solution. Yes they wont have to pay as high taxes, but they still wont have jobs. By cutting taxes for the bigger companies, it gives them room to bring jobs back to the US, therefore allowing the middle class to repair their income and pay their taxes as is.

Aurafire October 16th, 2008 1:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4039581)
I'm not sure I follow. If a company is sending jobs overseas, then haven't they effectively removed the jobs already? Why should we reward this? Obama's plan is to give tax cuts to companies that create new jobs. So basically, he's rewarding the companies that stimulate our economy and help the people in it instead of the ones that are leaving them to die in the gutter. Why is this wrong?

It's wrong because even though those companies are shipping jobs over-seas, they still employ a great deal of Americans. The economy is already crap, so they do what they have to to cut costs. I understand that this means less jobs here at home, but raising their taxes aren't going to do anything besides make it worse. It's a give and take situation, because sure, Obama is going to reward companies that are creating jobs here, but tax the crap out of those that have shipped jobs over-seas but still employ millions of Americans, thus forcing those companies to cut jobs. Why would you raise taxes on anyone during a situation like this?

Red1530 October 16th, 2008 5:32 PM

I found the third debate to be the best of the three. Senator McCain finally pointed out that Senator Obama's tax plan will hurt business. According to Keynesian economics, in times of recession you lower taxes for all people. Not just some people, but all people. According to some polls, the race is tightening up again.

Netto Azure October 16th, 2008 7:11 PM

HellCare
 
Eh...I know I talk too much about Healthcare Reform here, but with the economy and deficit as it is both candidates will be hard pressed to actually implement their healthcare plans (Finding sources for money)...Also China is closing down factories due to the lack of demand...

A video about healthcare made in 2000:

I can't help but laugh at the humor but also cry and be depressed at the same time towards the truth of it.
Yes, you guys shout "Socialized Medicine" but how can we give an American's Fundamental Right to Live to companies whose first allegiance is to stockholders and for profit? Make it more competitive? yeah we could apply that towards material things but not human beings. I might seem like a one-issue supporter to keep on pressing for UHC, yes I can form opinions on other to important issues, but a person can only take so much of a burden and attention on the world's vast array of problems. So I chose UHC as a topic I should focus on. Sorry if I appear as a single-issue supporter...:D

Edit: Is that picture on the top of the page real? I've seen on other screenshot from a different angle and I'm wondering is it Photoshopped?
I just don't have the time to watch the beginning of the debates again due to RL. I'm already hard pressed for Internet time as it is...

Red1530 October 19th, 2008 6:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 4040540)
Edit: Is that picture on the top of the page real? I've seen on other screenshot from a different angle and I'm wondering is it Photoshopped?

It is Photoshopped. I have to disagree with when it comes to health care. Health care is a responsibility, not a right. Currently in the United States the system is skewed to an employer-based health care system. John McCain proposal would try and level the playing field to make buying your health insurace not through your employer an atractive option.

Also the Supreme Court tossed out the Ohio Republican Party lawsuit to force the Ohio Seceretary of State to turn over information to county Board of Elections that could show regesteration irreguaraties. I can't belive I am typing this but I think that the United States is going to need international observers to make sure the election is fair.

Allstories October 19th, 2008 7:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red1530 (Post 4051555)
It is Photoshopped.

Haha, it's actually not Photoshopped. He's just turning around funny. It looks bizarre as a still frame but it's perfectly clear as to what he's doing when viewed in context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red1530 (Post 4051555)
Health care is a responsibility, not a right.

A responsibility to not be born poor and/or predisposed to a certain illness? Not to mention, there are times when you might feel ill and it might be serious, but then again it could just be nothing and if that's the case you'd stand to lose a significant amount of money. Should people be forced to take expensive gambles with their lives like that when they could just go in for free and prevent problems before they become serious?

Aurafire October 19th, 2008 7:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4051682)
A responsibility to not be born poor and/or predisposed to a certain illness? Not to mention, there are times when you might feel ill and it might be serious, but then again it could just be nothing and if that's the case you'd stand to lose a significant amount of money. Should people be forced to take expensive gambles with their lives like that when they could just go in for free and prevent problems before they become serious?

You act like every poor person in this country is poor because they some how drew the short straw in life and now the government needs to repay them for their bad luck. Is it not a responsibility to work hard, make a decent living and thusly keep your family safe? A little work goes a long way in America, and yet millions and millions of people choose to live off of government welfare programs. I can't hardly blame them: Why work when the government is paying all your bills and giving you food. Not to mention: The government already provides healthcare to 27% of those who have it.

So by all means. Lets take care of those who are already living off of tax-payer money even more by giving them free healthcare. Paid for by...you guessed it: tax-payers. Call me cold-hearted, but I draw the line when there are people in this country who barely have to lift a finger and all their needs are met. Is it regrettable that there are some people who can't afford healthcare, even if they are working hard? Of course it is. But why, may I ask, should the government now make it the small business owner's and large corporation's problem? Why is it a fundamental right to have something that you might not even deserve or even want to work for?

Some of those below the poverty line did not choose to be poor. Obviously. I'm not saying that every poor person is lazy. I want government programs that help people help themselves and not ones that just give them handouts.

I'm not trying to make you angry. It's clear that we have incredibly different opinions on most of the issues. I understand your viewpoint, and hopefully you understand mine.

TRIFORCE89 October 20th, 2008 5:17 AM

Food? No I don't think think the government should give you? House? Nope. It's not that I'm not for such things, but it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. Charities and other organizations can do it better. A little welfare is okay from the government, but nothing more than that.

But I don't see health care as welfare. It makes as much sense to me as having the Police. Living in Canada, I can say that health care is a must. If it works elsewhere why can't you guys do it?

In other news, Powell backs Obama. And Powell will be Obama's top presidential adviser should he win.

doesn't matter October 20th, 2008 6:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurafire (Post 4051753)
You act like every poor person in this country is poor because they some how drew the short straw in life and now the government needs to repay them for their bad luck. Is it not a responsibility to work hard, make a decent living and thusly keep your family safe? A little work goes a long way in America, and yet millions and millions of people choose to live off of government welfare programs. I can't hardly blame them: Why work when the government is paying all your bills and giving you food. Not to mention: The government already provides healthcare to 27% of those who have it.

So by all means. Lets take care of those who are already living off of tax-payer money even more by giving them free healthcare. Paid for by...you guessed it: tax-payers. Call me cold-hearted, but I draw the line when there are people in this country who barely have to lift a finger and all their needs are met. Is it regrettable that there are some people who can't afford healthcare, even if they are working hard? Of course it is. But why, may I ask, should the government now make it the small business owner's and large corporation's problem? Why is it a fundamental right to have something that you might not even deserve or even want to work for?

Some of those below the poverty line did not choose to be poor. Obviously. I'm not saying that every poor person is lazy. I want government programs that help people help themselves and not ones that just give them handouts.

I'm not trying to make you angry. It's clear that we have incredibly different opinions on most of the issues. I understand your viewpoint, and hopefully you understand mine.

No, it's still disgusting. Why in a country as successful as yours can you not provide for the health of the entire nation?

Besides, due to the significant part of the system that is private, that means it's about making profit and not about helping the people. Why yes, people do need to get their bling, but the fact is that if you don't have money and/or you're one of the 15.3% who don't have the funds to access medical care, you're gonna have a hard time getting better.

Your viewpoint is understandable, but it lacks virtue. Yeah, you have the whole "teach a man how to fish" thing going on, but if a man needs medical attention you just help him - not teach how to fix what ails him.

Also, about your "not trying" crap - it isn't possible to have zero unemployment (and you have those that can't earn enough), so some people have no choice but to depend on the state for the essentials. Furthermore with the downturn in the U.S. economy as of late many have lost their jobs and can't even afford to pay insurance premiums, so think about that.

Red1530 October 20th, 2008 8:50 AM

Earlier this year I talked to my Aunt who is a doctor. She said that an European-styled health care would be detrimental to our health care system. I occasionally read news reports that talk about the short comings of the universal health-care system.

Allstories October 20th, 2008 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red1530 (Post 4052826)
Earlier this year I talked to my Aunt who is a doctor. She said that an European-styled health care would be detrimental to our health care system. I occasionally read news reports that talk about the short comings of the universal health-care system.

Ok. Can you elaborate on this?

Netto Azure October 20th, 2008 12:52 PM

Reply...
 
PBS (One of the best source of media!) Frontline: The Choice 2008 (An Unbiased Documentary on both Candidates =D)

This documentary has given me a newfound respect to both candidates. John McCain was a great candidate, Moderate & Independent, but he is no longer the McCain of 2000, now he has to compromise with the Religious Right Fundamentalists. (and Karl Rove) It saddens me that the US Political System forces great people to conform & find their niche in it....:(

It's highly unlikely that Obama's Tax plan to be the final version 'cuz it has to go through Congress...Also McCain's Tax plan won't go through too due to the high probability of a Hostile Democratic Congress (With majorities in both houses, even a filibuster proof 60-40 Senate...) Scary...but I reluctantly approve...???

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 (Post 4052480)
In other news, Powell backs Obama. And Powell will be Obama's top presidential adviser should he win.

Not much of a surprise since I've been hearing about it for a while...

Some Numbers that I want to bring up: (Shift in the balance of power in government?)
Legislative (Congress): Senate: 60-40=Filibuster-proof Senate,
House: 218= Simple Majority or 290= 2/3 Majority to overturn vetoes

Judicial (Supreme Court): Possible retirements (maybe even 2...)
There has been a lot of 5-4 decisions for the past decade...That may change...

Executive (White House): Barack Obama (Democrat) or John McCain (Republican)

Things could go either way...If you catch my drift....

Also most of our foreign oil comes from Canada, Saudi Arabia, and Mexico in that order...So just something to think about. Hockey moms get our money!!! LOL

Education: Obama: Increase spending for Public Education by $19 Billion more. (Highly unlikely due to the Economic "Rescue" Plan)
McCain: Vouchers for Private/Charter Schools for the States. (Eh...not a lot of people are going to Private Schools you know, Charter Schools? What about standards?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red1530 (Post 4051555)
Also the Supreme Court tossed out the Ohio Republican Party lawsuit to force the Ohio Seceretary of State to turn over information to county Board of Elections that could show regesteration irreguaraties. I can't belive I am typing this but I think that the United States is going to need international observers to make sure the election is fair.

I'm afraid so, International Observers are needed for this election since a lot of Americans are paying attention. Alongside the vast US and local election observers throughout the political spectrum with the YouTube/Internet observers this election will be more historic. O_O Even the voting methods and equipment are not standardized which immediately points out irregularities and unfairness *coughElectoralCollegeCough* Both sides are trading jabs: the Republicans "Voter Registration Fraud" and the Democrats "Voter Suppression". I think both are true to be frank. It's "normal" in the Philippines so I'm used to it...D=

Sorry....I'll answer the Healthcare replies later...I have a couple of things to say...But Period 6 is starting...

TRIFORCE89 October 20th, 2008 1:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 4053427)
PBS (One of the best source of media!) Frontline: The Choice 2008 (An Unbiased Documentary on both Candidates =D)
This documentary has given me a newfound respect to both candidates. John McCain was a great candidate, Moderate & Independent, but he is no longer the McCain of 2000, now he has to compromise with the Religious Right Fundamentalists. (and Karl Rove) It saddens me that the US Political System forces great people to conform &find their niche in it....:(

To paraphrase PBS "superstar" Rick Steves. PBS is for people with attention spans. XD

But, yeah. That's what I've changed who I'm backing :c

Volkner's Apprentice October 22nd, 2008 6:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amachi (Post 4052525)
No, it's still disgusting. Why in a country as successful as yours can you not provide for the health of the entire nation?

Besides, due to the significant part of the system that is private, that means it's about making profit and not about helping the people. Why yes, people do need to get their bling, but the fact is that if you don't have money and/or you're one of the 15.3% who don't have the funds to access medical care, you're gonna have a hard time getting better.

Your viewpoint is understandable, but it lacks virtue. Yeah, you have the whole "teach a man how to fish" thing going on, but if a man needs medical attention you just help him - not teach how to fix what ails him.

Also, about your "not trying" crap - it isn't possible to have zero unemployment (and you have those that can't earn enough), so some people have no choice but to depend on the state for the essentials. Furthermore with the downturn in the U.S. economy as of late many have lost their jobs and can't even afford to pay insurance premiums, so think about that.

He's not trying to stress that "oh my God, these low class citizens are living off our money and it's sickeningggg", he's simply saying that these lower class people who AT SOME POINT are mentally and physically capable of earning an education (and actually trying during it to earn something-this is a matter that is severely overlooked in early education. A lot of lack of motivation comes directly from elementary/middle school where children should receive the most help to make sure they're ALL hardworking students so that American high schools and colleges can be competitive for a good reason.)

Once these people have their education, the doors for higher society open quite well. Alright, so yeah, we're going to have a large handful of people who are leftovers from the 50s, 60s, 70s and didn't receive or care about a great education all that much. If those people are willing to get out there, work, be healthy, be an active member of society and contribute all they can, of course they deserve to get care, treatment, etc. in case all they can do just isn't enough. But for those out there who have pretty much given up on life and are just blankly living in areas where garbage piles up everywhere, personalities and loved ones are warped by hopelessness, and all they can do is sit on their front porch and sigh, it's not the government's fault they're in that position. If someone has given all they've had to be the best person they can be, there'll be a record of that. People will take notice. They can be assisted and taken care of. I just don't think simply "giving up" is EVER the answer. People do it all the time, but they don't realize all that creates is even more widespread hopelessness.

It might seem like you can just say "there's no point in avoiding hopelessness" but there totally is. It's really easy too. You'd be surprised at the power that one involved and caring, outgoing and direct individual (even better-a group!) can have on an area in society.

Anyway, Amachi, I'm not stabbing what you said, I just wanted to help clarify Aura's post. He definitely wasn't saying if someone was bleeding in the streets that the world wouldn't stop to help him (and probably even help him pay for medical bills, if necessary.) Just that those who don't try/care shouldn't be freely handed money just for them to barely get by. I understand some people don't make enough, but perhaps they should have considered career choices, where they planned on living, how they planned on going about living, etc. before they had four kids prior to even being married. I'd bet getting better grades in early school and taking advantage of all the early life opportunities looks pretty good to them now.

This also leads me back to something I'm pretty sure was mentioned sometime ago. Weren't they (and by they, I have no clue who I mean) planning on doing some type of major revamp in certain areas of New York City? I can't remember if that was an announcement, a side-mention idea, or just gossip. Either way, I think we could definitely use it. New York is a great place, it's just...messy.

Allstories October 22nd, 2008 7:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volkner's Apprentice (Post 4057604)
perhaps they should have considered career choices, where they planned on living, how they planned on going about living, etc. before they had four kids prior to even being married. I'd bet getting better grades in early school and taking advantage of all the early life opportunities looks pretty good to them now.

YOUNG PEOPLE MAKING UNWISE DECISIONS? NOT IN MY AMERICA! http://www.deanmitchell.net/assets/images/US-Flag.jpg

Volkner's Apprentice October 22nd, 2008 7:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allstories (Post 4057635)
YOUNG PEOPLE MAKING UNWISE DECISIONS? NOT IN MY AMERICA! http://www.deanmitchell.net/assets/images/US-Flag.jpg

Haha, you know what I meant :P

A little more persuasive positivity never hurt anybody. Developing after school programs like clubs and sports for kids at younger ages could also help them focus on their studies. I also think my early schooling could have been waaaay better scheduled.

The youth make a lot of their decisions and thoughts based on those above them. It's a fact, we have influence over the little ones. If an older brother is smoking, hanging out with friends when he should be home finishing chores or studying for that six-chapter test the next day, or getting fired from every part time job he has, you can't say that doesn't impact how his seven year old sibling is going to look at life.

I digress, though, that's psychology not politics.

So um, yeah..elections. haha.

Netto Azure October 22nd, 2008 10:03 AM

Health-Care in the United States of America
 
Under Construction: Rough Draft, Please bear with me.

Some viewpoints and analysis from media on the Candidates Healthcare Plans:
PBS: POV (Critical Condition): http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2008/criticalcondition/special_background.html
NewsWeek (Got Insurance?):http://www.newsweek.com/id/161203

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurafire (Post 4051753)
You act like every poor person in this country is poor because they some how drew the short straw in life and now the government needs to repay them for their bad luck. Is it not a responsibility to work hard, make a decent living and thusly keep your family safe? A little work goes a long way in America, and yet millions and millions of people choose to live off of government welfare programs. I can't hardly blame them: Why work when the government is paying all your bills and giving you food. Not to mention: The government already provides healthcare to 27% of those who have it.

So by all means. Lets take care of those who are already living off of tax-payer money even more by giving them free healthcare. Paid for by...you guessed it: tax-payers. Call me cold-hearted, but I draw the line when there are people in this country who barely have to lift a finger and all their needs are met. Is it regrettable that there are some people who can't afford healthcare, even if they are working hard? Of course it is. But why, may I ask, should the government now make it the small business owner's and large corporation's problem? Why is it a fundamental right to have something that you might not even deserve or even want to work for?

Some of those below the poverty line did not choose to be poor. Obviously. I'm not saying that every poor person is lazy. I want government programs that help people help themselves and not ones that just give them handouts.

I'm not trying to make you angry. It's clear that we have incredibly different opinions on most of the issues. I understand your viewpoint, and hopefully you understand mine.

First of all hard work and education is one of the cornerstones of the US Culture so I do not believe in Full blown communism nor it's ideals of a classless society. No, Aura I do not believe that the basic fundamental right to live is something to be tossed aside. Want me to quote BOTH the US Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to US Constitution to back me up on that?

The Healthcare system here in the USA is dysfunctional. The fact that the richest (Most Americans believe in this) Country on Earth, The only superpower cannot even provide the benefit of life to it's own citizens while the rest of the Western Democracies (Canada, Western Europe, Japan, and Australia to name a few...) has Universal Healthcare makes the US appear philosophically backward. Hmm...Call it "Socialism" but can you say that to our own Western Democratic Allies are a bunch of Socialists in front of their faces? I doubt that, a Social Democracy and Universal Healthcare works! Did you know that most people who don't have insurance ACTUALLY WORKS HARD. They support and they are the backbone of the US Capitalist system! Did you even think what will you do if you were laid off for a job that provided great benefits such as the US Detroit car companies? What will you do if you had an accident while looking for a job because your job was shipped overseas? (Capitalism works like that, no matter what we do)

Think about it this way if we take the burden of providing Healthcare away from employers, more money can be put on wages and salaries. Also your argument that "helping people help themselves"... Isn't that what providing access to Universal Healthcare all about? Giving them the TOOLS to be healthy? Most people don't go to their primary doctors for being afraid that their premiums will rise. And the fact is every time we have a person go to the Emergency Room for a simple problem like the cold, we have to pay for it! The Tax Payer! Our overcrowded Emergency Rooms can be relieved if we give them the tools to go to a Doctor first!

Sorry this is a rough draft, please don't comment until I'm finished or get around to it. I'll continue tomorrow...


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