The PokéCommunity Forums

The PokéCommunity Forums (https://www.pokecommunity.com/index.php)
-   Off-Topic (https://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23)
-   -   Concerned about validation?? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=159551)

prolific_rhapsody November 7th, 2008 4:52 PM

Concerned about validation??
 
I'm taking classes at my local community college towards getting my CIW grand master certification, and something that we've been really discussing as of late is website validation.
Validation is the process by which your HTML/XHTML/CSS, etc., is evaluated to see that all of your code is properly constructed.
As some of you may already know, it's almost a requirement that your website be "validated" through the W3C validation tool. (Disability Discrimination Act 2005).

Website operators that are non-compliant run the risk of claims being made against them under the Act. There has already been a case in Australia under similar legislation where the claimant was awarded substantial compensation for disability discrimination as a result of a non-compliant website. This means that if you don't have a text-only option for those using disability-tailored browsers, you can get in trouble.


What are your thoughts on this, as webmasters? Is this a good move, something to be worried about, or a bad one?

Red1530 November 8th, 2008 7:21 PM

I don't understand your post. In one paragraph you talk about web standards and in the second paragraph you talk about a law that may affect web sites. Can you post more information?

蜃気楼 November 9th, 2008 12:35 PM

I am not concerned, I always produce valid HTML.
If you indent code well, and use an IDE such as Visual Studio/Komodo Edit/IDE, you can get a valid code.
Accessibility is also important, your site must be accessible with mobile phones, video game systems, blind people,
If my favorite Linux guide site is not accessible on my Nintendo DS, I cannot go to that site to find guides if my Linux is not working.

Just try to make your code valid, and accessible.
Validator: http://validator.w3.org
Accessibility:http://www.w3.org/WAI/

prolific_rhapsody November 9th, 2008 3:18 PM

I believe that SpaceMan++ produced a pretty thorough explanation. :).

Rukario November 9th, 2008 3:26 PM

valid code != accessibility

Just remember, these 2 things are separate issues. Both do need to be addressed by modern website coders however.

Faltzer November 9th, 2008 8:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rukario (Post 4109788)
valid code != accessibility

Just remember, these 2 things are separate issues. Both do need to be addressed by modern website coders however.

I don't think so. Valid HTML takes a role in accessibility though, mind you.

http://www.mcu.org.uk/training/usestandardmarkup.php
http://www.netmechanic.com/news/vol6/html_no20.htm
http://www.hobo-web.co.uk/tips/42.htm

[QUOTE=SpaceMan++;4109315]I am not concerned, I always produce valid HTML.

Quote:

If you indent code well, and use an IDE such as Visual Studio/Komodo Edit/IDE, you can get a valid code.
Indenting is irrelevant to the validity of your code, because it only influences on how your source code looks. Plus, whichever IDE you use is irrelevant. Real men use raw tools (Notepad, Cream, SCiTe, Notepad++, etc.).

蜃気楼 November 9th, 2008 8:27 PM

If you dont indent, it's hard to find errors by hand
IDEs has automatically validation, so it's just faster, easier and make you care about validation.
I use Komodo Edit, which doesn't have Design Mode.
Yes, valid code = accessibility, different browser handles errors differently

Tyler November 9th, 2008 8:30 PM

I completely agree with Faltzer.

Whenever I code, all my coding is validated from the start, most of the time.

I think real coders should use NotePad, even tho I use NotePad++. But I bet professional web designers use Dreamweaver and Frontpage (or w/e the new Microsoft program is called).

蜃気楼 November 9th, 2008 8:32 PM

Invalid code are produced by users who keep in Design mode in Dreamweaver and FrontPage They are invalid and not well-indented.

Faltzer November 9th, 2008 8:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyler (Post 4110457)
professional web designers

Quote:

Dreamweaver
Does not compute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMan++ (Post 4110452)
If you dont indent, it's hard to find errors by hand
IDEs has automatically validation, so it's just faster, easier and make you care about validation.
I use Komodo Edit, which doesn't have Design Mode.
Yes, valid code = accessibility, different browser handles errors differently

But indenting has nothing to do with validating. Again, you missed my point. Indenting is in regards to better looking source code, but it affects validity not.

蜃気楼 November 9th, 2008 8:38 PM

If I don't indent, it's so hard to find errors.
Then you give up at fixing errors.

Tyler November 9th, 2008 8:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faltzer (Post 4110471)
Does not compute.

By Professional I meant people going to college for Web Design.

Faltzer November 9th, 2008 8:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyler (Post 4110481)
By Professional I meant people going to college for Web Design.

This is probably what pisses me off the most about people wanting to learn web design. Dreamweaver is an over-priced piece of crap, novice magnet software that encourages bad habits in coding when in design mode. Either way you have it, dishing out the money for a crappy WYSIWYG editor is just pointless, and Notepad++ can do so much better if it tried.

蜃気楼 November 9th, 2008 8:45 PM

Yes, you don't need Dreamweaver or FrontPage,
Komodo Edit are Notepad++ are all good.

Tyler November 9th, 2008 8:47 PM

Tho, a lot of people do start off using something like Dreamweaver. Then they realize it's a joke. But I bet, for the most part, that people just use Pirated versions of Dreamweaver.

蜃気楼 November 9th, 2008 8:49 PM

I used the Trial version of Dreamweaver and I did not like it because it doesn't check PHP syntax.
I produced a lots of Flash crap with Design Mode on Visual Studio.

Faltzer November 9th, 2008 8:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyler (Post 4110496)
Tho, a lot of people do start off using something like Dreamweaver. Then they realize it's a joke.

Not many. There's a certain webmaster I know that whores over Dreamweaver, and thinks that professionals use it, while the novice use normal text editors.

Quote:

But I bet, for the most part, that people just use Pirated versions of Dreamweaver.
Yeah, but schools or companies definitely don't.

prolific_rhapsody November 14th, 2008 9:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faltzer (Post 4110485)
This is probably what pisses me off the most about people wanting to learn web design. Dreamweaver is an over-priced piece of crap, novice magnet software that encourages bad habits in coding when in design mode. Either way you have it, dishing out the money for a crappy WYSIWYG editor is just pointless, and Notepad++ can do so much better if it tried.

Yeah, straight old-fashioned notepad is the way to go. I have a four hour class twice a week in HTML/XHTML, CSS, Flash, and all that, and if it so happens that he sees us using anything but Notepad for the code, we're as good as dead. He doesn't play. I suppose that in an instructor that's a good quality, though, because in the end, we're hardened and trained to take on the worst of situations (i.e. validation; taking over a website for someone when the person who had it before you did didn't know what they were doing).

Cherrim November 14th, 2008 11:44 AM

I don't think code validation and ensuring your site is accessible to even the disabled is necessarily the same thing, but I do feel both are important aspects of designing and coding. I know a lot of people ensure their code validates okay at W3C, that their page looks the same in all the major browsers, and consider that the gold standard when there's a lot more to it than that to ensure a website works well for everyone.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Faltzer (Post 4110507)
Not many. There's a certain webmaster I know that whores over Dreamweaver, and thinks that professionals use it, while the novice use normal text editors.

A lot of professionals DO use it. Whether it's a decent program or not, it's practically a standard for professional web development; most jobs in the industry require proficiency in it. I think it's ridiculous but... almost any web design job I've applied for in the last year has it listed specifically so that certain webmaster is right in that aspect.

Faltzer November 14th, 2008 1:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning (Post 4120936)
A lot of professionals DO use it. Whether it's a decent program or not, it's practically a standard for professional web development; most jobs in the industry require proficiency in it. I think it's ridiculous but... almost any web design job I've applied for in the last year has it listed specifically so that certain webmaster is right in that aspect.[/font]

But unless you're a complete novice, you should just stick to raw tools, and not something that is aimed for that share of the web. I can understand the industry having it as a requirement for getting a job in it, but what I don't approve of is people blatantly abusing the little capabilities built for convenience and then them calling themselves a 'professional'. Also, I like how you assume that you know who he is to be adopting a conclusion like that.

蜃気楼 November 14th, 2008 4:11 PM

Accessibility is important.
Validation is just a part of accessibility. You must add alt attributes to every images and use <abbr> tag for acronyms.<noscript> for browsers who does not support scripts.
You can still use Dreamweaver or other commercial authoring tools, but don't stay in Design Mode all the time.

I viewed many fansite's source codes, they used HTML 4.0 and I had a hard time to view it, after I validated it, it had hundreds of errors.
My site always get Valid HTML, Valid CSS, and WAI-A icons, and at least you should write a valid CSS.

If you use Komodo Edit or other IDEs, it can validate as you type.

Cherrim November 17th, 2008 6:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faltzer (Post 4121279)
But unless you're a complete novice, you should just stick to raw tools, and not something that is aimed for that share of the web. I can understand the industry having it as a requirement for getting a job in it, but what I don't approve of is people blatantly abusing the little capabilities built for convenience and then them calling themselves a 'professional'. Also, I like how you assume that you know who he is to be adopting a conclusion like that.

...I don't know who the person is nor do I even care. Lol, I don't know anyone these days anyway. :[ Fact remains that he's not totally running his mouth on the Dreamweaver & professionals part and that's the sad truth. Like you, I completely disagree on that "novices use text editors" thing, but Dreamweaver IS an industry-standard whether it's a good editor or not.

To be honest, I don't think even novices should be touching Dreamweaver since it's far too easy to get dependent on the preview/WYSIWYG pane and that, in turn, encourages lazy coding. Buuut, they will anyway because it's easy to make something that looks professional, whether or not it's even viewable in most browers (and obviously won't be very accessible in specialty browsers, etc.)

Faltzer November 17th, 2008 1:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning (Post 4128490)
...I don't know who the person is nor do I even care. Lol, I don't know anyone these days anyway. :[ Fact remains that he's not totally running his mouth on the Dreamweaver & professionals part and that's the sad truth. Like you, I completely disagree on that "novices use text editors" thing, but Dreamweaver IS an industry-standard whether it's a good editor or not.

To be honest, I don't think even novices should be touching Dreamweaver since it's far too easy to get dependent on the preview/WYSIWYG pane and that, in turn, encourages lazy coding. Buuut, they will anyway because it's easy to make something that looks professional, whether or not it's even viewable in most browers (and obviously won't be very accessible in specialty browsers, etc.)

Yes, it is the industry standard. However, it doesn't change the fact that it's an awful standard set by people who whore over an awful editor.

蜃気楼 November 17th, 2008 7:52 PM

Dreamweaver, Photoshop are all industry standards.
Don't use Microsoft authoring tools such as FrontPage because they used IE's rendering engine.

Stuart444 November 18th, 2008 1:33 AM

Last year (and possibly later this year) we used dreamweaver to make a website in college. I didn't like it but meh. I did alot of it in code/split view though since I prefer coding than the design view. At the end, all my webpages (which I don't have anymore ;-; since something happened to my mem stick that had the stuff on it) were validated HTML/CSS and I think I was the only one in the class who had valid code, others didn't care so much.

when I have it my way, I prefer to use notepad or notepad++* (i think thats the one? colours syntax or something like that)

edit: it wasn't notepad++ it was notepad2*, but might check out notepad++ at some point then >_>


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:22 PM.


Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2018 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2016 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.

Acknowledgements
Use of PokéCommunity Assets
vB Optimise by DragonByte Technologies Ltd © 2023.