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Metagame Discussion Thread
Metagame Discussion ThreadThis is the thread where PokéCommunity members can discuss the current OU, UU, and Uber metagames. Most of the Strategies and Movesets forum is dedicated to team rating and individual movesets, so a discussion thread is a refreshing change of pace from the usual moveset and team rating threads. This thread will also be much more heavily moderated than other threads on the forum since discussion threads are much more likely to melt down without strict control over the thread. Remember to follow the rules and have a good time discussing the metagame! I. How Discussions Will OperateDiscussions will not be limited by a selected topic, so everything will evolve naturally. If the topic slowly changes, that's okay. Heated debate is strongly encouraged (as long as your are being respectful and using logic and evidence when posting your opinions), but don't take anything too far and remember that it is just Pokémon. also, try to stick to one discussion to prevent this thread from turning this thread into a chaotic mess of random posts, which is anything but a discussion.Discussions will be limited to metagame discussions. However, some metagame discussions that will not be allowed to take place include tier discussions and moveset discussions, as they already have their own discussion threads. To discuss these topics, just follow the links provided. Almost everything else is fair game to discuss with your fellow PCers. Remember, this thread relies on you, the member, to be a success. Please do your part in being informed and logical while posting. This will ensure that this thread is the home of several quality discussions and a great place for PCers to voice their opinions about the current metagame. II. Rules And Regulations→ Explain your thoughts in full detail when necessary. If your thought is brief and does not require a lot of explanation, you do not need to go into unnecessarily long essays about what you think. On the other hand, if your thought is rather complex or your have a position to defend (or are disagreeing with somebody else's), then you will need to fully explain your thoughts. While any opinion can be voiced, it must be backed up or it will not be taken seriously or respected until you explain why you have the opinion you do. This will help to promote a thoughtful and interesting discussion. Any posts that do not follow this rule will be promptly deleted, and breaking this rule could result in receiving infractions from a moderator, so don't do it.→ Do not defy logic in your posts. This basically means that you should not be saying things that aren't true. Make sure that you are unbiased and always be sure that your evidence is relevant and solid. Saying that Snorlax is not a good way to deal with Choice Scarf Heatran is not adding to the discussion, and posts containing too much flawed logic will be promptly deleted. If you make too many posts deemed "bad" by the moderators, you will be infracted by them for posting low-quality posts. → Do not insult or flame other members. This should be very obvious, but discussion threads are often reduced to insults and useless flame wars. Anybody involved in a flame war will receive an infraction immediately, no exceptions. Flame wars are just spam and take away from the discussion as a whole, and they will not be tolerated. Insults are handled in the same way, only first offenders will be warned not to insult another member again. However, you will only get one warning before insults are treated like flame wars, which will result in an infraction no matter what. → A moderator's judgment on if you have broken a rule or not is final. This applies to all of the rules. Annoying the moderators with visitor messages and/or private messages about how your post should not have been deleted will not get you anywhere, so you might as well not even bother. Bothering moderators about their decisions will only get you into further trouble and will get you infracted in a heartbeat. III. Closing CommentsLet the discussion begin! Have a good time and feel free to voice your opinions (assuming they are properly backed up, of course). Let's try to bring out the full potential of this thread by informing and challenging each other, and let's have a good time doing it!Also, huge thanks to BeachBoy for the format design! |
'Kay, let's set down the "warning." Anti here made an excellent discussion thread, and this won't (unlike other failed S&M discussions) go up in flames. Ya'll have a track record of absolutely failing at discussion threads, but here's a chance to be good lil' cupcakes. :3 D_A and I won't be holding back. You try to derail this thread, we'll delete your post, and or infraction you. (Don't come crying to us either, you're at fault) So please, keep it intelligent and, overall, clean. D_A, Smarties, Britney, and I don't want to infract every other post here.
Now *cuts ribbon* gogogo. |
Yay first post =D Although it's not official, Shaymin-S is under voting on Smogon to see if it is uber or not, and apparently the Uber side is winning. It may be premature to pass judgement on Shaymin-S, but are there any opinions? I don't think it centralizes the metagame nearly as much as Garchomp did, nor will it ever be as broken (since it relies on luck rather than sheer power). If Shaymin-S is officially "OU", will there be any major changes in the way teams are constructed? Much like the way teams were constructed during the Garchomp era (Cresselia was seen a lot more, now it's virtually unused). Stall seems to be making a comeback, although from all the teams I've face, stall broke down after a few long turns. Scizor is also a major pain in the ass, since most of it's counters are Stealth Rock weak, and a lot of them also are easy to stop otherwise (Gyarados, Zapdos, and Rotoms are the major counters, and Tyranitar can take 2/3 of these mentioend threats). Another Pokemon I've noticed coming into the metagame is Rhyperior. I underestimated quite a bit, but I've found that I had to sacrifice almost 1 Pokemon per match to handle the Sub Swords Dance set. It packs immense power, and can set up on quite a few things; Blissey, Bronzong, Cresselia, etc...It's easy to stop once the Sub is gone, however. It's piss poor speed and common weaknesses are oh so easy to handle. The Rock Polish set worries me, since with Jolly it outruns even Base 125's, and is outsped by Base 130's by 2 measly points. Adamant still has the potential to outrun all Base 110s (358), although Max Speed 115's stop it. Trick on basically every Psychic/Ghost type hurts the ability to stop them with Blissey/Snorlax, the latter of which is almost never seen anymore since the special threats hit too hard. It's ridiculous how powerful the Special Attackers have become, and the possible addition of Latios in OU doesn't help Snorlax's case at all. Choice Band Lax is still a very potent threat, and actually a great way to stop Heatran, who is at an all time high.
Taking a turn to UU, Absol hasn't been breaking the metagame as I had predicted. It has no solid counter per se, but it has a lot of checks. Technitop is the best check for it, as Mach Punch OHKO's and Sucker Punch from even a +2 LO Absol never OHKOs. Technitop in general is a great overall choice for teams with the growing popularity of things like Omastar, Kabutops, and Sharpedo. Drapion is not a counter anymore, since Superpower comes close to OHKOing, and Sucker Punch finishes off whatever Superpower leaves behind. Fire Blast is not needed for Steelix, who is OHKO'd. Probopass and Aggron aren't checks, Skuntank is in the same boat as Drapion as well. PC may have moved Absol to BL, but it still remains UU on Smogon. Kabutops remains a UU Limbo, correct? I think testing of it sounds good, since the counters for it have a chance to be stopped by the mixed/SD set. Both of them are very viable choices. Uber metagame is in the worst shape it's ever been. Nasty Plot Darkrai REALLY screws over its counters, as the mono attacker is scarier than ever. There's no need for Focus Punch to handle Blissey, as +2 Focus Blast is an easy 2HKO, and +2 Dark Pulse still shaves a good percent off. I don't know what counters this guy yet =p. Giratina-O is very overlooked, as Blissey can do nothing to stop it. Immune to Seismic Toss means a Sub/CM/Dragon Pulse/Shadow Ball set rips apart the entire Uber metagame. Revenge killers that are common (Palkia, Darkrai, Dialga, etc...) are all special based, meaning that G-O can soften the blows as well as hit them for super effective/high damage. That's my rant =] |
Alright, awesome. I think an appropriate way to start off would be the Platinum OU metagame getting kicked off, and how new moveset additions have changed everything. Pokémon usage has flipped all over the place. Usage statistics are here (though they will be getting an update for this last month soon).
Some Pokémon have not really moved much (like Salamence, Metagross, and Lucario) since DP, but Pokémon like Scizor and Zapdos have obviously skyrocketed in usage due to gaining Bullet Punch and Heat Wave, respectively. Heatran has also gone way up for its ability to effectively revenge kill so many Pokémon that's it's tough to count. Kingdra also benefited from the transition thanks to getting Outrage, which makes it an effective DD sweeper (and it is still the best Rain Dance sweeper in the OU tier as well). Meanwhile, Spiritomb took a big hit with the addition of Trick allowing the Pokémon it's supposed to counter beat it up and cripple it. Gliscor also took a hit with Lucario getting Ice Punch, and it has generally lost its ability to reliably beat a lot of physical threats. It also seems that Hypnosis going back to 60 accuracy hurt its users, as Bronzong and Gengar both fell fairly significantly in usage. They both got Trick though. Speaking of Trick, when battling, that has been my number one problem. It has had a big impact on the game, and it has helped in neutering SR suicide leads like Azelf. Still, TrickScarf makes Blissey less reliable and gives slow teams (especially stall) a really rough time. The addition of Trick has added as many problems to the game as it has fixed, easily. Other additions have hurt stall too, in my mind. Outrage Salamence and Superpower Dragonite make two formidable sweepers that stall can easily have trouble taking down. Kingdra getting Outrage, as previously mentioned, really helped it and now gives stall another problem to deal with. Shaymin-S/Skymin also gave stall yet another problem, but it could be banned. The vote is currently very close on Smogon as the link shows (currently 57-53 in favor of banning it to the Uber tier). If the margin holds up, stall will be spared from a solid subseeder and special sweeper. Its ban could have a fairly large effect on the metagame though, as the top Pokémon used might be used in part to beat Skymin. Time will tell. Tyranitar gaining Aqua Tail to take down Hippowdon and Gliscor did not help either. It's an even grimmer world for stall in my opinion, though it's still an effective strategy; I just feel it's outclassed by most forms of offensive teams right now. Oh, and did I mention Scizor? Platinum seems to be more widely hated then DP was way back when, which might be overreaction to change that might not be as big as people think, or maybe it isn't. Platinum is such a mixed bag for me: Trick is very annoying, and sweepers becoming even more powerful is not helpful, but on the other hand, Pokémon that used to be low OU or BL now are wisely used, which is a nice breath of fresh air. Teams are very predictable now though, almost to the extent of how you would just expect to be Garchomp on the opponent's team before its ban. I prefer DP, as I feel that it is more skill-oriented. Platinum will hopefully get better as it goes on like DP did, but right now, it's a largely monotonous metagame at this point. What do all of you think about Platinum's updates' effects on the metagame? EDIT: Yipes, beaten by Vance. lol I would agree/disagree but I don't know much about Ubers or UUs :( Also I'm glad you brought up the Rotom forms. They seem like very capable defensive Pokémon from the battles I've played in as well as those I've watched, but the Pursuit weakness can be troublesome (much like it was with ScarfGar in DP). Also, I'd rather keep Skymin's tier status debate to the tier thread itself, but if we're just stating what we think, then for me, it's not uber. Just my take though, lol. Guess I'm not easy to impress =p |
Since I dropped from UU for now, and I've never done Ubers, I'll give my two words.
Skymin: Skymin is definitely one of the most feared Pokemon at the time with Serene Grace, Air Slash, Seed Flare, Leech Seed, and great coverage. I personally see it going to Uber with its stall-breaking powers. If it didn't get Earth Power, then I would probably say OU at that point. If it does go Uber, then Shaymin-land might actually try to take its place since it too gets those moves, is more durable, and not weak to SR. It can still Sub-Seed, Specs (It gets Air Slash too, as well as Earth Power), and it can pull an LO set just as easily. Also, with its increased bulk, it can tank rather well, showing its usefulness with Aromatherapy and Natural Cure to absorb status. So, to conclude, Skymin's shift to Ubers should mean an increase in Shaymin usage. If Skymin remains OU, then Shaymin will barely ever be seen. Heatran: Heatran didn't get any better. It's just that the current metagame favors it to revenge certain threats, coming in with its extremely useful resistances. Its use actually started to rise late D/P from my knowledge. It's a staple to many teams, capable on coming in against the likes of a Skymin Seed Flare or a Scizor Bullet Punch (Beware Superpower!). It can come in on various fire attacks going at Scizor, giving it a Flash Fire boost and causing some serious damage. I don't expect Heatran usage dropping anytime soon. It's just too good, but it's nowhere near Uber. Scizor: Mediocrity to superb. Simply said, Scizor is now a dominant force with its Technician Bullet Punch. It really causes some damage to teams that don't have a steel/bug resist. With only one weakness, good defenses, and some resistances, it can trap the likes of Gengar with a Pursuit, decimate teams by setting up on Blissey that lacks Flamethrower, and pound away with a Swords Danced Bullet Punch. 90 base power isn't a lot, but 130 base attack that is doubled sure sounds threatening in my books. This bug is just awesome (Personally a favorite bug of mine) Salamence: Salamence took Dragonite's secret recipe of DD/Outrage and gave it not only to himself, but Kingdra. DD LO Outrage from this thing OHKOs Vaporeon (It did mine anyway), and it's a true menace to the OU metagame. Seriously, bring a Timid ScarfGar to check this thing, or suffer a horrible fate. Kingdra: What used to be an average Pokemon is now a beast to handle. Having no weaknesses and above average defenses, Kingdra can easily Substitute and Dragon Dance up. Most non-STAB attacks from walls don't break this thing's Sub, which usually results in a horrible defeat for the opponent. However, we can't forget that Kingdra has Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam as solid special attacks to take down typical physical walls. Bring a decently hard hitter with good defenses to help stop Kingdra. Metagame status: Unbalanced...definitely. Seriously, Platinum didn't make D/P's offensive metagame better. In fact, it made it almost over-offensive with a thousand stallbreaking sets and Trick. Stall is extremely difficult to do now (still possible), and teams usually rely on resistances. I'm not saying it's a bad thing (more prediction based rather than send in a wall to block an attack), but it is unbalanced. Stealth Rock destroys some teams, which makes teams even trickier to assemble a team not weak to it. Various teams pull the aforementioned "Suicide lead" that tries to prevent the foe's Stealth Rock from entering the field, as well as setting up its own (Think Azelf and Aerodactyl). My opinions are just opinions. My logic may be flawed, but I'm giving my thoughts on Platinum. As unbalanced it is, I still like playing it except for Gaymin-S taking my hax god skills away. |
I almost forgot about Salamence! Maybe because it's amazingly threatening Dragon Dance set has been passed over for the mediocre MixMence version with Outrage > Brick Break. Salamence with a Yache Berry, with the moveset of Fire Fang/Earthquake/Outrage destroys the entire metagame with little trouble. Life Orb isn't necessary, as after a single Dragon Dance, an Adamant Salamence has 607 Attack. That's pretty damn impressive. Now, Dragon Dance with Outrage was exclusive to Dragonite in D/P, but Salamence's advantages over Dragonite are numberless. Better speed, higher Attack, better ability, etc...Dragonite is just plain outclassed as a Dragon Dancer.
In D/P, Cresselia was the best Garchomp counter availible, but even that took between 46-55% from Choice Banded Outrage. Salamence is even stronger than Garchomp, and a +1 Outrage with Life Orb does between 62-73%. Keep in mind, Salamence will not be breaking the metagame like Garchomp did, but it has definite counter, especially with a Life Orb attatched. Hippowdon is your best, and perhaps only bet. |
I haven't played the game recently, but according to the new changes (and pokemon additions) it seems like stall could still be a reliable strategy; The new Rotom forms and the removal of Garchomp and possibly Skymin plays a big part in this - Rotom's access to W-o-W, decent speed and defences, fits perfectly into a stall metagame, or at least a really defensive one since a physical sweeper will be burned instead of being poisoned. Coupled with the queen of special defence, Blissey, it looks like a very reliable strategy. The main wall-breakers like Infernape and Tyraniboah are still a big problem here, but aren't hard to stop if you play it right.
ScarfHeatran is pretty much the only useful form of that pokemon now, at least to me. The ability to outspeed many pokemon who would otherwise OHKO it and exploding on a designated counter is what makes Scarf so valuable. Scizor is a great clean up sweeper, especially with the addition of Bullet Punch. Running both Quick Attack and BP isn't a bad idea, as it helps getting rid of annoying "counters" such as Zapdos and other water pokemon who laugh at BP. Hypnosis being at 60% is the icing on the cake. I hated how Gengar could rule the entire game depending if it scored a hit. That leaves pokemon like Venomoth and Roserade much more desired for inflicting sleep. Even Trick-Scarf-Smeargle seems more viable now in this new environment. There's nothing to talk about UU since no one really cares, or just other issues are more important to be resolved before attempting to redo it. |
Celebi hurts normal Shaymin enough as it is (below 100th in usage before Skymin came into the picture, which shocked me), so Skymin doesn't help. I've personally found it underwhelming, and it does have several checks (though few counters), so I never had a problem with it. Scarftran revenge revenge + not letting it come in was enough for me.
Also, I see what you mean by "Heatran didn't get any better," but I really think it did since as you mentioned, the metagame around it favors it more. It's kind of like how Boah is a lot better when stall is omnipresent than when things are like they are now. I mean, I see what you mean since Heatran itself didn't get any notable improvements, but I still think it got "better." Guess it's just how you define "better," lol. With Scizor, I actually find the SDer an inferior SDluke. It has no way of beating aerial Pokémon like Salamence and Gyarados (though Bullet Punch actually does a lot to Mence, but half the time it can Roost anyways). Zapdos is also a problem and one cannot forget Heatran, who doesn't even need a Choice Scarf to revenge kill it. Scizor can get by Heatran though, as it does learn Agility and Superpower. Agility would be great to beat Heatran, but it probably would be inferior to the Swords Dancer since bullet Punch is all the "speed" it needs. Back to my point about it being an inferior SDluke though...Lucario can get past those flyers with Stone Edge (though it usually needs Jolly to beat Salamence). Extremespeed also shaves a lot off of Zapdos, and with Stealth Rock damage accounted for, Zapdos will be in KO range for almost any revenge killer (which could open up a Scizor or Skymin sweep). Close Combat has a way better offensive type than Bullet Punch and it has greater base power. Scizor can't wall break like Lucario can at all, and being walled by the top Pokémon in OUs is bad. CB Scizor is more effective in my view, as U-Turn is a great scouting tool, and Bullet Punch can pick off any ~60% enemy that doesn't resist it. Heatran isn't safe at all either, and Pursuit is so insanely useful for slaying ScarfGar that I couldn't even begin to describe it. As for Outrage Salamence, I can vouch for its effectiveness both as a user of it and as somebody who has taken a beating from it. The DDer has swept through most of my team many times before (though I actually win a majority of those battles because the opposing teams seem so centralized around a DDmence sweep). Either way, it reminds me of Garchomp, only it's tough to revenge kill but easier to wall (oh, and Stealth Rock weakness). The one thing about Salamence that Garchomp could never do is threaten Draco Meteor at the same time as that CB Outrage (which is also very effective, might I add). Salamence and Dragonite too are both very versatile threats. EDIT: While I agree with pretty much everything you said Sya, walls have to worry about TrickBand/specs/Scarf a lot more than they had to in DP. Sweepers have gotten so many upgrades too. Also, Toxic Spikes have almost no effect on the top ten Pokémon at all, and Toxic doesn't effect the many steels that are around. That being said, all of my losses have been against stall with one exception, but you could probably blame that on my team structure. What I'm trying to say is that stall can work still, but it's way harder to pull off (though agreed, the likely ban of Skymin will help) in this new environment. Also not like it really matters, but RestTalk Heatran makes a great special tank and doesn't mind taking TrickSpecs/Scarf. Scarftran is obviously more useful in the current metagame, but ScarfTran is one of the most useful Pokémon around. That we can all agree on. |
With Platinum's debut, I am disappointed that Heat Wave is the only common change in terms of Egg Move (Slugma only) that I have noticed.
How useful is Ice Punch on a Lucario? Wonder if my Hippowdon will still hold up against this Outrage Salamence... |
I'm still not very fond of the metagame changes to Togekiss. He got nothing in Platinum, while the new Rotom formes are major hindrances to him. As an additional slap in the face, his #1 counter--Zapdos--has jumped to the 4th most used Pokemon.
To my surprise, the #1 most driving force in the current metagame wasn't Skymin; it's Scizor. This thing humiliates teams that rely on a sweeper to set up and sweep late-game. Either way, the metagame is extremely unpredictable now and very volatile. |
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Platinum has brought the Golden Age for offensive teams, leaving stall teams having to worry about more threats, Trick just going "HAHAHA" at them, yeah...Platinum really is a load of anti-stall material. "Lala post more you lazy boy" Platinum has basically slapped Scizor and Heatran in everyone's face and made them seem so good you just can't resist them. The same can be said about other common threats such as Outrage Mence, Heat Wave Zapdos, and Earth Power Celebi etc. Just don't expect to see something new even after laddering for a while, I bet most likely at least 1 in every 10 matches will have a Skymin, 2 or more out of 10 will have Scizor and Heatran. Oh, and just don't switch Hippowdon into Outrage, because it's a guaranteed 2HKO from LO Outrage after a Dragon Dance, but even switching in like that is lol. Bullet Punch Scizor is obviously a good Pokemon, otherwise why would it be so common, for it has a priority move of 90 BP =p. |
Nintendo has brought new moves to the table in every new game, in the form of Move Tutors, etc.
This time, they went overboard in most cases. Outrage would be a constructive upgrade to pokemon such as Kingdra and Flygon. Instead, they insist on giving it to Salamence. Superpower is also rampant, however it's not nearly as bad. It does give several pokemon the ability to break sturdy walls, though. Dragonite couldn't previously run a decent mixed set, it can now OHKO Blissey. On top of this, they had to spam Trick across the board. It removes the element of strategy for wall-breaking and made the few viable users obsolete. I can't see why they didn't hand out Recover or Slack Off. It would mean more pokemon have access to reliable recovery. I mean seriously, why does Infernape have Slack Off and not Snorlax? Here's the worst of it: These changes can't be undone without seriously hurting the next generation of competitive play. What I mean, is that they can't remove access to these moves without denying the transferal of pokemon across from 4th Gen to 5th Gen. They've really dug themselves into a hole here... I've got an idea for the next topic. :D |
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i think it's pretty obvious there wasn't much thought put into who needed what. it looks like a matter of matching colors with each other, if you get what i mean. there are very few cases were beneficial stretches were made (e.g. Superpower... on Flareon o_O) to boost capabilities. there are so many more that could use the same kind of stretches for their movepool.
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I want to know how useful Mixmence is in the the seriously imbalanced platinum metagame
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Someone May Of Posted This But
Bullet Punch/SwordDance/Agility/Baton Pass Scizor is a Pain Along With A Team Of Gliscor+ Other Annoying Sub/Baton pass?stat Increaser/ Stat Increaser Smeargle Is Seeing Alot More Play Thanks To Its Unlimited Movepool Trick Is The Biggest Problem Ive Faced So Far Giving You A Choice Scarf Which May Turn To Your Advantage If You Running A DD/OR/SUB Kingdra Like I Do:) Kingdra Seeing More Play Than Specsmence And Mixmence Hippodon Being Replaced With Aerodactyl Mamoswine and Weavile Seeing More Play Due To Skymin/Gliscor Over Use T-tar Seeing Less Play For Reasons I Dont Know Steelix seeing More Play As a Physical Wall Pinsir Seeing More Play for reasons i dont know... Weezing UU No Idea Why Everyones Using Him With Sludge Bomb/Flamethrower/Explosion/and another move Yanmega Seeing More Play As Sub/u-turn/Hypnosis/Bug Buzz Thats All I Can ThinkOF @ The Top Of My head |
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Seriously. That Scizor is pointless with Bullet Punch and Agility. Outside of Bullet Punch, it's an old set. Smeargles options haven't changed. I agree with Trick, it causes problems although. Kingdra is good, however I don't think it sees that much usage. Mixmence with Outrage>Brick Break is rising in usage. (I've been running it since the beginning.) Aerodactyl and Hippowdon are completely different. Mamo and Weavile still have to deal with Scizor's Bullet Punch and the Heatran usage. Ttar is rampant. I don't play UU, although in OU, Yanmega is seeing less usage, gaining no new moves of interest. You may want to think things through a little better. :D |
My opinion on the current world of Pokemon in the American circuit:
Pokemon in America today is pretty one-dimensional. It wasn't too long ago where you had various sites to compete in and more than one gen to test your expertise in. Even when RSE came out, the decline of the previous two gens was more of a slow build-up, but when DP emerged as a competitive entity, the other gens died out much quicker. There are a few things we have to look at to figure out WHY Pokemon in America appears smaller than it's ever been before. One attribute is Smogon, which has more-or-less monopolized Pokemon in the American scene. I feel as if the domination of Smogon has intimidated people from even trying sites, as Shoddy has gotten people thinking that Netbattle is a waste of time. A site is useless without a venue to battle in, which leaves only Shoddy. Since Shoddy only offers DP, sites don't have a lot to work with. They have to compete with Smogon and they have nothing to offer that Smogon doesn't, making any efforts futile. Another attribute is obviously Shoddy, which killed Netbattle in the American scene. When RSE came out on Netbattle, it gathered flocks of people wanting to play it. Netbattle expanded and became much bigger, but the difference is that Netbattle was originally invented for RBY and GSC. Therefore, Netbattle didn't completely eradicate the previous two gens and the thousands of newcomers to the competitive scene would have options if they didn't like RSE, or wanted to try something new. However, Shoddy only has one gen so new players are basically forced to adapt if they want to play on a competitive level. The new limits that have been imposed on the competitive scene on America have greatly downsized Pokemon in the American circuit. But I think another attribute that I'd like to mention is that I feel competitive Pokemon isn't taken as seriously in America as it is in Europe. Having battled in the European circuit for 2 and 1/2 years now, I think Pokemon is treated with more value and respect in Europe. It's almost as if it's a sport, which may come across as silly to many casual people but I like this attitude. It's created a much greater atmosphere and the thought of playing in a site where all four gens are treated equally is a site I think everyone should go. Everyone who thinks they're really good at least. |
It could just be that D/P brought in a lot of new players. Many new players that came because of D/P (myself included) have no interest in previous generations.
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Well, why would a new player be interested in older generations? That's like playing Team Fortress Classic when we already have Team Fortress 2: TFC may have its unique features, but TF2 offers enough gameplay (as well as a larger player base) to keep a new player playing- leaving the old 'hardcore' as the sole players of TFC.
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TF2 isn't better than TFC, just different (better in my opinion, but there are many who would refute that). I don't see how the comparison fails.
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Guys, this isn't a Team Fortress thread or which metagame is better thread. It's discussing the changes within the Fourth Generation of Pokemon battling. Let's stay on topic please.
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Airconditioning: If it's only different then it just agrees with what I'm saying.
Britney Spears: I don't see how we're going off-topic. My posts pertain to the current status of the American metagame and it's decline. Would I be more on-topic if I discussed what Smogon was doing, even though this site isn't Smogon? |
GGFan, Please keep in mind that Shoddy Battle is not the "American Metagame". Everyone has access to it, so a large section of the players are from outside the US. English Metagame would be more appropriate, although there are players that I have seen on Shoddy that do not speak English. Regardless, I can't see how there are either less players in this generation (with the introduction of Wifi) or how Smogon is to blame for the "Decline" in the Metagame. These Superpowers exist to provide new players with somewhere to start and a central hub for more experienced players to keep an eye on things.
To sum up the 4th Generation as opposed to the 3rd, I would say: The 4th Generation has evolved (pardon the pun) into a faster-paced, more Offensive Metagame, where Sweepers now have more powerful moves with better coverage and most walls gained nothing outside of entry hazards, which sweepers have begun to use. |
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Superpower is great for CB Scizor, but it doesn't really help the SDer. However I do agree that it really helps the CBer a lot. then there's Superpower Mamoswine which you didn't mention, though I don't blame you since it's hardly worth mentioning. Shaving 50% from Bronzong is kind of neat, but that would only be useful in a world with Deoxys-S (using "useful" loosely). Mamoswine is much better off beating Gliscor and Hippowdon more reliably (as well as Celebi) rather than worrying about 3HKOing something. I don't see Superpower as going overboard by any means though, as Dragonite is very slow and easy to beat before it can beat you (unless, of course, you're running stall), and Scizor would just Run Brick Break instead (though Superpower is admittedly superior on the CBer). As for Salamence, Outrage is no worse than what we had with Garchomp. Salamence can only boost its attack with Dragon Dance, so it's not "uncounterable" or anything. The Life Orber dies much the same way LO SDchomp did, and the CBer has to worry about Stealth Rock and Sandstorm damage. I mean, it's not like they're overboard, just maybe piling onto a generation that has already hampered stall compared to GSC and Advance. Quote:
I will say that how "good" or "bad" Platinum made the metagame is just personal preference; if you like stall or even some forms of bulky offense, then you're probably going to hate it (that's me), but if you love heavy offense, you're probably going to like it way more. |
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I also didn't say this generation produced less players, maybe you just misread what I said. What I'm saying is that the quality of play has decreased thanks to Smogon's monopolization of battling and because of Shoddy. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're wrong or bad, but the level of competitive play has taken a huge hit because of these elements. However, I'm not sure if Smogon is still as political as they've usually been so maybe there are some faulty measures there. And to say multiple superpowers exist is just a joke. Smogon is the only place left for Americans. You have to go back years to find superpowers. |
Perhaps I did not specify in the first post what exactly I meant by "metagame discussion."
This thread isn't for discussing who is to blame for the current state of any metagame that is outside of the Pokemon themselves. This thread is for the discussion of purely the Pokemon and how they affect each other and play against each other and all of that stuff, not about Pokemon websites or battle simulators. GGfan, your opinions are probably best suited for another thread, but this just isn't the one. There's a lot of blame to go around for the decline of previous generations and the problems with our current one, but this isn't the thread to discuss that. Let the discussion resume. Thank You. |
SD Scizor actually can use Superpower effectively, although the CBer uses it with much better results. The reason to use Superpower is simply this: Skarmory. Unlike Bronzong, it's not 2HKO'd by +4 LO Bullet Punch, and it 4x resists X-Scissor. Superpower 2HKOs Skarmory after a single Swords Dance (63% minimum the first time, 47% percent minimum the second time). Bullet Punch can only manage 42% maximum after 2 Sword Dances, and X-Scissor does a laughable 28% maximum. Skarm can Whirlwind Scizor out, but if it decides to Roost, X-Scissor 2HKOs it.
Anyway, the metagame revolves around Scizor now. Skymin isn't at dominant as I believed it to be. It's uber when you use reasoning, but it either dies or doesn't do enough damage, not to mention its 4x Ice weakness makes it no harder to kill than Salamence. Scizor has a ton of checks and counters, but with most of them being Stealth Rock weak, and a majority of them being unable to handle things like Tyranitar, it's easy to work around it. |
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I see absolutely no reason to use Superpower on Scizor. Its speed doesn't allow to hit the Superpower weak pokemon (like Heatran) in time, it's only practical when you catch them on the switch, but that isn't likely to happen most of the time. Skarmory doesn't have to Roost either - Brave Bird hits Scizor naturally as he won't enjoy it with the LO recoil damage. I would only consider Quick Attack and X-Scissor as the 2nd or 3rd move besides Bullet Punch and Swords Dance. Roost is optional (if I intend to use all 3 attacks). Scizor should be running enough speed to outrun base 85 non speed pokes like Cresselia and Suicune. Salamence strikes me as the biggest threat currently, solely for Outrage. It practically forces you to have SR on your team so this dragon doesn't come in for free everytime. I guess Scizor helps balancing him out with a powerful BP and Ice Shard is also good for stopping it completely if you don't mind sacrificing a pokemon so you can bring Mamoswine / Weavile safely. At least they will score a 100% hit, not worrying about friggin Sand Veil. |
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To be fair, with "prediction," you can beat about any "check" that comes in. Besides, Brick Break can hit hit them too (though not as hard, but at least you can use it after a SD and not have your sweep completely ruined). Yeah 2HKOing Skarmory is probably cool and all if you actually see it, but it's 30th in usage. I'd rather be using that moveslot to better deal with counters and checks that are far more common like Zapdos and Gyarados (not like Scizor can really hurt them, but still).
Besides, like Sya said, the defense drop added to 120 base power STAB Brave Bird and LO recoil...Scizor actually isn't going to last very long at all. Superpower could work on the SD set I suppose, but if you want to "predict" what is coming in on it and deal with it, CB Scizor is probably a better choice for you anyways. Brick Break doesn't halt its sweep once he uses it, so Brick Break is probably going to be much more useful than Superpower. EDIT: If Salamence switches in on SR, Yache Berry won't save it from CB Mamo's Ice Shard: 591 Atk vs 196 Def & 332 HP (40 Base Power): 260 - 308 (78.31% - 92.77%) Add in the damage it will probably take switching in and Ice Shard has a really good shot at beating YacheDDmence. |
I never use Superpower on the SD set, but when someone says there's "no reason to use it" then they're obviously wrong. There IS a reason to use it, and I've addressed that reason.
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So it really isn't like Fire Fang/Blast on the dragons since it's actually essential to their sets, while Superpower is hardly essential (unless you have a REALLy bad Skarmory problem). I mean I see where you're coming from trying to say Superpower can be useful, but Brick Break is better 98% of the time so it's hardly notable. It is notable, but again, in an "Other Options" type of way. =p |
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See my point? |
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If this set was something where Roost >>> Swords Dance, then I would agree with you a lot more. Swords Dance + Superpower is kind of like using Nasty Plot + Overheat. |
I think it's time we address an overlooked threat in the new metagame; Flygon. Yeah, in D/P, all the Dragons (especially Garchomp) outclassed it, nearly entirely. But with Garchomp being Uber, the addition of Outrage, and the prevelance of stall, Flygon can fit quite well in the new metagame. Not only is it either resistant or immune to all forms of entry hazards, but it can't be paralysed, nor can it be hit by one of the game's most common attack, Earthquake. Ground and Dragon STAB hits everything bar Skarmory and Bronzong for neutral, and Fire Blast lets it destroy Skarmory, though it cannot touch Bronzong. U-Turn is very good on Flygon; letting it hurt switch ins and turnign 3HKO's into 2HKOs. It's also perfect for Flygon's build, as Flygon doesn't fear entry hazards one bit. For example, a 333 Def/444 HP Cresselia takes 42%-50% from a Choice Banded Outrage. It'll never 2HKO, unless SR/SS is taken into account. U-Turn does 33%-40% to the same Cresselia. In other words, that U-Turn turns the 3HKO into a 2HKO 100% of them time. If you're feeling lucky punk then you can just spam U-Turn and 3-4HKO Cresselia. Alternatively, a Max HP/Max Defense Suicune takes between 44%-51%. That'll never 2HKO without Leftovers or Stealth Rock, but U-Turn guarantees the 2HKO on the next switch in.
Flygon can also make a "subpar" Tyranitar switch in, taking, at maximum, 63% from Choice Banded Stone Edge. Still, a CB Crunch can 2HKO it, but only 2.56% of the time. You can use some more bulk, but then again, Flygon isn't a Tyranitar counter, just a last minute check (at best). Fire Punch 2HKOs Bronzong and Shed Shell Skarmory (very rare) if Stealth Rock is in play, meaning there is little need for Fire Blast (it won't do anything to Bronzong). Outrage 2HKOs Gyarados after Intimidate, and Salamence is obviously going to get murdered. As far as counters go, the whole U-Turn switch idea ruins them. Hippowdon is the best thing to handle Flygon, as it's immune to Sandstorm, and can live a U-Turn and 2 CB Outrages (it does 48% max, and 41% min). Hippowdon also can Ice Fang it, or just plain Roar the poor bug/dragon/thing out. Still, Draco Meteor for the Mixed/Specs set can 2HKO most Hippowdon. Cresselia can remain a slightly good counter, since it has Ice Beam to guarantee a solid KO on the dragon. Anyway, I think Flygon needs more lovin ;( |
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Flygon does have several advantages over Mence and Dragonite too, most notably U-Turn and its SR resistance. Fire Punch is has over Mence, and the (Toxi)spikes immunity is really cool. Given that Outrage 2HKOs every bulky water in the game given SR (and it only needs SR to beat Suicune), you could say that the power drop isn't that noticeable (but it IS noticeable). Still, Garchomp wasn't immune to Toxic Spikes, so in a sense (emphasizing that), Flygon is better against stall since it's REALLY hard to actually stall out of damage. Hippowdon and Skarmory are the only real trouble Pokémon for it. Even though it's no CBchomp, I don't get how CBchomp is number one in usage but this is BL. lol Just from watching Vance ladder with this I can tell you that it's not just theorymon - this set is REALLY good. |
Flygon, hmm..? I should try it out sometime.
What would the best strategy for a sceptile be, if I got one? SubSeedPetayaSunnyBeam? |
Ninja Cateprie, this is a metagame discussion thread. Ask for movesets in the Individual Movesets thread.
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I'll be honest, I thought before that Flygon sucked in every way. :| However, when I watched Anti the other night, it was both very surprising and ... kinda shocking. U-turn laughs at too much, and it's like people don't know how to properly handle it. Needless to say I'm impressed with Flygon's ability to perform in today's metagame.
Kinda makes me want to use it on the ol' revamped Haymakers. XD |
Flygon was one of those off-the-beaten-path type of Pokemon that showed great usage in R/S/E, plummeted in D/P, and is seeing a comeback in Platinum with Garchomp banished to Ubers. Outrage, unique typing that gives it the easiest switching in possible (resists SR, immune to all Spikes, Quake, and having a few resistances, as well as decent bulk), and great coverage are all going with Flygon. U-Turn, as stated before, causes trouble against most of the metagame since CB U-Turn hurts things, period. Steels that resist U-Turn and Outrage eat a nice Fire Punch or Fire Blast. Also, unlike Salamence and Dragonite, Flygon gets STAB on Earthquake, the most common move in today's metagame. However, Flygon kills to have better stats. If it did, then we'd be looking at a top OU Pokemon easily. I guess we can't choose what we want these days...
Flygon's an awesome Pokemon, both game-wise and artistic wise, although slightly weird. It appears as a bug of some sort, but never does it have the bug type. Instead, it's made a dragon! That's just strange to me. But, back to Flygon...if you need a simple dragon to use, Flygon's your choice. Roost, easy entry, and good coverage make it great to use, and it can be either a pain or a killer to your opponent. |
Hum...Flygon's one of those Pokemon that doesn't lose anything from roost, just gains the ability to be hit by Ground moves... It's got everything going for it except stats, but with a base Attack of 100, it's still pretty scary. Although, too much stronger and it'll uberise itself like Garchomp. :\
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btw, Flygon doesn't ever gain the ability to get hit by ground moves because it is not a typing, it is an ability. mold breaker is what would cause this to occur.
ooh i just noticed flygon got tpunch. not bad, not bad at all. |
Yeah, Roost only negates a flying sub-type, never does it negate Levitate. It shows why every Pokemon now has a type that goes with Flying.
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Maybeb the reason I've had such trouble [LIE] is because I wasn't utilizing Flygon properly. Hmmm....
If it's ok to ask here, Smarties, what would the ideal nature for said CBGon be? |
For CBGon, I'd have to say something like Adamant or Jolly. Adamant for pure power, or Jolly for a little more speed. You hit 299 and 328, respectively. For the attack, I think you hit 494 and 449, respectively (factoring in CB here.)
You could use Lax for the extreme awesome value though. |
Is Naive any good? Forgive me if I'm asking this in the wrong section, but I feel it has relevance.
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There is no point in Naive since Flygon really shouldn't be carrying any special attacks (Fire Punch is a good enough fire move - Fire Blast is generally inferior).
I don't even think Jolly should be an option. When something has 100 base attack (which may I remind you is less than Mesprit's), it needs all of the attack it can get. Outrage misses almost all of the KOs it needs with Jolly, and the speed boost doesn't really help against anything notable. Adamant is superior 99% of the time imo. I haven't used Jolly if I'm being honest, but from using Adamant I can tell you that Flygon barely has enough power to get its kills (much like MixApe or MixMence). Jolly is so vastly inferior imo, unless there's something it should outspeed that is more important than 2HKOing every bulky water in the game given SR and doing more damage is general to physical tanks and walls. It's a load of fun though <3 It's better than a lot of top pokemon like Electivire, Porygon-Z, and Sucknoir though. |
Sounds almost as nice as Leafeon getting Swords Dance from level up. Cause getting to level 71 is easy enough as it is.
I'd like to speak of the UU metagame, if I may? Victrebell is looking mighty good now that it gets Leaf Blade. |
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Here is the only physical set Victreebel can use IMO: Victreebel @ Life Orb Adamant/Jolly Nature(only in Sun) 252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 6 HP Swords Dance Leaf Blade Body Slam/ Return Sucker Punch It doesn't have any other good phyiscal attacks. |
Wait, what?
An SD Leaf Blade coming from Victre hurts even Steelix. Hell, especially Steelix, 2/3HKO'ing it. It also has Sleep Powder to stop any potential "counters", and Stun Spore can make up for his "speed". It also gets Knock Off, if it matters. Speaking of Speed, it's 70. Not too bad for a[n?] UU poke. I can also see Wrap working into its moveset. A fun little surprise. |
Bel's speed isn't too bad, but its poor defenses and average speed aren't gonna help much against things like Tops, CB Scyther, etc. What I was trying to say is that although Victreebel can pull off some decent physical sweeping now, it still functions better as a statuser/ special sweeper.
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Did you listen to sims ? Is speed really an issue with Stun Spore, Sleep Powder and Sucker Punch in its arsenal ? Heck one can even abuse the sun. SD/Sleep Powder or stun spore/Leaf Blade/Sucker Punch is VERY good set (and it actually has higher base attack that sp.att, although minimal). I see no logical reason as to why it "functions better as a statuser/ special sweeper" |
Leafeon at lvl 41 now. Just 38 more to go, an it would have learned Swords Dance. God, I love that they added this move :\
I must ask, has Curselix been living up to teh hype? Excuse my fanatics, but a poke like Vileplume makes the ideal statuser. He has the defence to stand there & throw Stun Spore & Sleep Powder. Victreebel can take his spot as a great Physical threat. |
Well for those of you who dont know, the usage statistics are out for November
- Rhyperior, Flygon and Empoleon are now OU. - Scizor is #1 *shock* with Heatran and Salamence 2nd and 3rd respectively. - Gallade and Yanmega are out of OU lol - Vire is still OU and Gengar has gone down to 10th in usage o.o. - Hitmontop is used more than charizard (and #1 used poke in uu <3, with clefable and claydol 2nd and 3rd respectively) - Shaymin-S is 17th in usage lol, yet votes for uber still outnumber those for ou =/ - Azelf is still #1 lead in ou. - Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza occupy the top 3 spots in uber. Some food for though =] (If you wanna know more, its the stickied thread in stark mountain on smogon) |
i'd like to note that a lot of players have a shame level before resorting to Skymin, hence it's usage rank. thing is UBERTASTIC!
and hmm, suckerpunch might be pretty good on Victreebel. i've been using it defensively w/ Reflect as a decent primeape counter, nearly OHKOing w/ Leaf Storm. a +2 suckerpunch, adamant to 0hp/0def Primeape does about 65%. not bad. nice for a suprising finisher. |
I never thought I'd live to see the day when Empoleon would actually be OU...
Poor Yanmega =/ |
Hahahaha, finally Yanmega got kicked down to the BL tier. It's about time it did. Anyway, I'm surprised Electivire is still OU. GOD, it's been said by nearly everyone how bad it sucks, yet people still use it. And the worst part, is that people are using the Physical Sweeper variant. Mixed set can actually leave a little dent, but don't worry, your team won't be swept by it (unless your name is Lunar Fang/Aquilae).
Rhyperior and Flygon are OU; the latter is okay with me. Rhyperior still sucks, I can't seem to find a way for it to sweep. Still, in my matches, I had to sacrifice at least one Pokemon per game in order to stop bulkier variants in the Sandstorm. |
This isn't even a temporary OU list, so I wouldn't get so excited just yet. Only next month the OU list will be calculated so Empoleon and friends need to get even higher this month if they wanna have a spot in the next official list. I doubt Yanmega is going anywhere, people are using it less probably due to the accuracy drop in Hypnosis... although personally I think the bug doesn't need this move to prove itself effective.
Victreebel likes Sucker Punch / Leaf Blade / Swords Dance / Sleep Power. I ran it with Focus Sash and it worked very well. It's somewhat like a physical Darkrai in Ubers, lol. |
I guess with pretty much every single competitive battler in a craze over Scizor's Bullet Punch and other priority moves, Reversal sets are not really viable in today's metagame.
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i never once thought of reversal sets to be viable and i don't know anyone who does.
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Reversal is a scary idea, but most of the users of it have Close Combat, so there's really no need to set up an entire Pokemon for one move that can last once.
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Azelf is still number 1 lead... odd, since Aero outspeeds it. I would actually think that Aero would see more usage... where was he on the usage list? HOW is E-Vire still OU? They need to kick that thing out already. does nothing unless you use the old GyaraVire combo. Scizor was obvious. |
It was explained exceptionally well on smogon why Electivire is still OU and has the potential to stay that way. Basically, in short, it has many chances to come in on the top most used pokemon, get a motor drive boost, and threaten to OHKO them. Expert Belt is probably ideal to use on him because he can still take an unstabbed hit while scoring a super effective hit on most (all?) of them. People just use him too early in the game, or just don't think he can come in a second time after losing the speed boost, which is underrating his power.
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Level 40 now. Almost got that elusive Swords Dance.
I agree with Syaoran. I never understood all the Vire hate, it just has too much raw potential, with great stats (you'll be lying if you say otherwise), and such a diverse moveset, only seen on Normal types. Just because you seem to have a bit of trouble using it properly, doesn't mean they suck. Not particulary aiming this at anyone, mind you. "Gotta know when to hold em'...know when to fold em..." |
Oh on the topic of skymin usage (well not really) if you dont know ,shaymin-s is now uber ... for at least a month and will be re-tested after the lati twins are (according to smogon). It's interesting to say the least on how the Lati's (without soul dew) will perform and how they will influence the metagame.
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I honestly think they'll be a bit overpowered for OU. 5 Weaknesses may help make up for the insane stats (even without Soul Dew).
The lack of a decent Fire Attack makes them easier to deal with, although even a +2 Dragon Pulse comes close to a 2HKO on the Standard Bronzong. They're fast, bulky, offensively gifted and have one of the best Offensive Types in that game for a STAB. They'll be lucky to get in to OU even without Soul Dew. Oh and good riddance to Shaymin-S. :D |
I remember when we had the [email protected] tourney here, everyone used a CB tar, while not even using [email protected] in their teams. We pretty much agreed that they weren't overpowered without Soul Dew, but then again if you have to use bulky CBTar in every team it's pretty much overcentralizing. Maybe stall is an alternative solution, particularly Blissey with Toxic.. but that's pretty situational too. I wonder what new counters people can come up with.
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latios has some serious potential. i really don't see much going on for latias, tho. they failed to give it reflect. CM and recover is the only 2 things that would make it a threat.
holy hell, i just noticed something -- Honchkrow got Heatwave!! can't wait to use SDKrow O_O |
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I'm amazed that no one uses trick in ubers. And with kyogre lurking around, why don't people use the Rotom forms? Scarf Rotom-W didn't do too bad for me in ubers. |
Latios is very similar to azelf, trading attack for sp. def and better movepool. Latios is easier for blissey to wall and has 5 less speed, meanin gengar has a shot at defeating it.
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I agree w/ many of the earlier posts. When I go on Shoddy, it seems that every match is turning into a game to see who can set up and sweep first, compared to Netbattle's sub, toxic, and stall games that lasted over 60 turns. 2 SD's on my Scizor and I practically automatically win. If the enemy's Gyara gets a couple DD's on, I've lost.
But I haven't seen many Reversal/Flail sets yet, probably because of priority moves. I always lead w/ Yanmega, and I am surprised to hardly see any other ones out there. He's a good guy w/ a beastly SpecA. Course, this might not be news to any of you. But whatever. The game has taken on a pokerlike atmosphere as of now. |
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At least the game's starting to settle, now. We've all gotten used to the new threats and overcentralising ones have been removed. If [email protected] is brought it, it will create major chaos. |
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Also Garchomp over centralizing was a myth at best that people used to justify its ban also, Latias being brought in won't bring major chaos...how would you even know? It's actually a lot like Alakazam in the sense that status still screws it over and any strong physical attack will essentially do it in, only it trades extra bulk for less special attack and speed. I mean, I just don't see how you can make that conclusion when testing has only just begun and it is easily countered and still possible to revenge kill. o_O |
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Three things that you don't discuss with friends: Money, Politics and the Garchomp Ban. :D Quote:
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It was never offensive in early DP. Early DP was very balanced, probably leaning towards offense, but "offensive" is an overstatement. Offensive is when the goal is to sweep, not just carrying 2 or 3 sweepers. I think bulkygyara is the perfect analogy for the evolution of the DP metagame: It started being able to take hits and sweep okay and then started adding all these attack EVs and a Life Orb. BulkyGyara was considered one of the toughest sweepers around...if that's offensive then this is "wall are obsolete Blissey is BL at best" stuff ._. Besides, you can't just ignore the very long period of stall that had a huge impact on stall as well as the time Wobbuffet was around, which basically kept stall intact as it was coming apart. Early DP was at most bulky offense (but it really wasn't - it was balanced) and after came heavy stall...it's only very recently that it's been heavy offense (basically when husk had his team, which wasn't that long ago). Saying that DP has been "fragile" from the outset when Blissey, Bronzong, and Cresselia were right up there the whole time...I don't get it to be frank. I don't see how a slight increase in a couple of pokemons' usage is creating "major chaos" though >_> I don't even think that minor of a shift is even notable. |
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I still maintain that [email protected] will create some impact, considering it will be a threat and people have never had to deal with it before. Look at the Deoxys craze; Bronzong and Metagross usage went up, and there was quite a bit of movement going on there. Even if [email protected] isn't as much of a threat. |
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And of course they will create an impact, but seeing that like half of the top ten doesn't really fear it I don't see how the impact will be big. Maybe I'm severely underestimating Latias but in our original test it didn't do much at all :x Besides, all that is is overreaction, and in due time (like, a week since this is no Deoxys-Speed) it will have settled in. Yeah people have never had to deal with it before, but people have had CM Suicune and Raikou and they have had SpecsMence...so it's not the adjustment that is was when Deoxys-S came when the game had never seen anything like it before. |
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