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-   -   Metagame Discussion Thread (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=162124)

sims796 December 9th, 2008 10:42 AM

Is Naive any good? Forgive me if I'm asking this in the wrong section, but I feel it has relevance.

Anti December 9th, 2008 12:40 PM

There is no point in Naive since Flygon really shouldn't be carrying any special attacks (Fire Punch is a good enough fire move - Fire Blast is generally inferior).

I don't even think Jolly should be an option. When something has 100 base attack (which may I remind you is less than Mesprit's), it needs all of the attack it can get. Outrage misses almost all of the KOs it needs with Jolly, and the speed boost doesn't really help against anything notable. Adamant is superior 99% of the time imo.

I haven't used Jolly if I'm being honest, but from using Adamant I can tell you that Flygon barely has enough power to get its kills (much like MixApe or MixMence). Jolly is so vastly inferior imo, unless there's something it should outspeed that is more important than 2HKOing every bulky water in the game given SR and doing more damage is general to physical tanks and walls.

It's a load of fun though <3 It's better than a lot of top pokemon like Electivire, Porygon-Z, and Sucknoir though.

sims796 December 9th, 2008 9:25 PM

Sounds almost as nice as Leafeon getting Swords Dance from level up. Cause getting to level 71 is easy enough as it is.

I'd like to speak of the UU metagame, if I may? Victrebell is looking mighty good now that it gets Leaf Blade.

Skip Shot December 9th, 2008 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4183471)
Sounds almost as nice as Leafeon getting Swords Dance from level up. Cause getting to level 71 is easy enough as it is.

I'd like to speak of the UU metagame, if I may? Victrebell is looking mighty good now that it gets Leaf Blade.

Whilst Victreebel can be somewhat good with its new Platinum moves as a physical sweeper, it can only work in Sun because of Bel's crap speed. Also, the set is horrendously walled by Steelix.

Here is the only physical set Victreebel can use IMO:

Victreebel @ Life Orb
Adamant/Jolly Nature(only in Sun)
252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 6 HP

Swords Dance
Leaf Blade
Body Slam/ Return
Sucker Punch

It doesn't have any other good phyiscal attacks.

sims796 December 10th, 2008 12:08 AM

Wait, what?

An SD Leaf Blade coming from Victre hurts even Steelix. Hell, especially Steelix, 2/3HKO'ing it. It also has Sleep Powder to stop any potential "counters", and Stun Spore can make up for his "speed". It also gets Knock Off, if it matters.

Speaking of Speed, it's 70. Not too bad for a[n?] UU poke.

I can also see Wrap working into its moveset. A fun little surprise.

Skip Shot December 10th, 2008 7:17 AM

Bel's speed isn't too bad, but its poor defenses and average speed aren't gonna help much against things like Tops, CB Scyther, etc. What I was trying to say is that although Victreebel can pull off some decent physical sweeping now, it still functions better as a statuser/ special sweeper.

Dark Azelf December 10th, 2008 7:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sc4rfCh0mp (Post 4184061)
Bel's speed isn't too bad, but its poor defenses and average speed aren't gonna help much against things like Tops, CB Scyther, etc. What I was trying to say is that although Victreebel can pull off some decent physical sweeping now, it still functions better as a statuser/ special sweeper.

+2 LO Sucker Punch OHKO's Scyther and does ~89% to kabutops.

Did you listen to sims ? Is speed really an issue with Stun Spore, Sleep Powder and Sucker Punch in its arsenal ? Heck one can even abuse the sun.

SD/Sleep Powder or stun spore/Leaf Blade/Sucker Punch is VERY good set (and it actually has higher base attack that sp.att, although minimal).

I see no logical reason as to why it "functions better as a statuser/ special sweeper"

sims796 December 10th, 2008 9:10 AM

Leafeon at lvl 41 now. Just 38 more to go, an it would have learned Swords Dance. God, I love that they added this move :\

I must ask, has Curselix been living up to teh hype?

Excuse my fanatics, but a poke like Vileplume makes the ideal statuser. He has the defence to stand there & throw Stun Spore & Sleep Powder. Victreebel can take his spot as a great Physical threat.

Dark Azelf December 10th, 2008 1:28 PM

Well for those of you who dont know, the usage statistics are out for November

- Rhyperior, Flygon and Empoleon are now OU.
- Scizor is #1 *shock* with Heatran and Salamence 2nd and 3rd respectively.
- Gallade and Yanmega are out of OU lol
- Vire is still OU and Gengar has gone down to 10th in usage o.o.
- Hitmontop is used more than charizard (and #1 used poke in uu <3, with clefable and claydol 2nd and 3rd respectively)
- Shaymin-S is 17th in usage lol, yet votes for uber still outnumber those for ou =/
- Azelf is still #1 lead in ou.
- Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza occupy the top 3 spots in uber.


Some food for though =] (If you wanna know more, its the stickied thread in stark mountain on smogon)

Samson December 10th, 2008 2:01 PM

i'd like to note that a lot of players have a shame level before resorting to Skymin, hence it's usage rank. thing is UBERTASTIC!

and hmm, suckerpunch might be pretty good on Victreebel. i've been using it defensively w/ Reflect as a decent primeape counter, nearly OHKOing w/ Leaf Storm. a +2 suckerpunch, adamant to 0hp/0def Primeape does about 65%. not bad. nice for a suprising finisher.

The Hero Without a Name December 10th, 2008 2:54 PM

I never thought I'd live to see the day when Empoleon would actually be OU...

Poor Yanmega =/

. December 10th, 2008 3:17 PM

Hahahaha, finally Yanmega got kicked down to the BL tier. It's about time it did. Anyway, I'm surprised Electivire is still OU. GOD, it's been said by nearly everyone how bad it sucks, yet people still use it. And the worst part, is that people are using the Physical Sweeper variant. Mixed set can actually leave a little dent, but don't worry, your team won't be swept by it (unless your name is Lunar Fang/Aquilae).

Rhyperior and Flygon are OU; the latter is okay with me. Rhyperior still sucks, I can't seem to find a way for it to sweep. Still, in my matches, I had to sacrifice at least one Pokemon per game in order to stop bulkier variants in the Sandstorm.

Syaoran December 10th, 2008 6:26 PM

This isn't even a temporary OU list, so I wouldn't get so excited just yet. Only next month the OU list will be calculated so Empoleon and friends need to get even higher this month if they wanna have a spot in the next official list. I doubt Yanmega is going anywhere, people are using it less probably due to the accuracy drop in Hypnosis... although personally I think the bug doesn't need this move to prove itself effective.

Victreebel likes Sucker Punch / Leaf Blade / Swords Dance / Sleep Power. I ran it with Focus Sash and it worked very well. It's somewhat like a physical Darkrai in Ubers, lol.

The Hero Without a Name December 10th, 2008 6:58 PM

I guess with pretty much every single competitive battler in a craze over Scizor's Bullet Punch and other priority moves, Reversal sets are not really viable in today's metagame.

Samson December 10th, 2008 7:09 PM

i never once thought of reversal sets to be viable and i don't know anyone who does.

. December 10th, 2008 7:14 PM

Reversal is a scary idea, but most of the users of it have Close Combat, so there's really no need to set up an entire Pokemon for one move that can last once.

Skip Shot December 10th, 2008 7:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vance (Post 4184771)
Hahahaha, finally Yanmega got kicked down to the BL tier. It's about time it did. Anyway, I'm surprised Electivire is still OU. GOD, it's been said by nearly everyone how bad it sucks, yet people still use it. And the worst part, is that people are using the Physical Sweeper variant. Mixed set can actually leave a little dent, but don't worry, your team won't be swept by it (unless your name is Lunar Fang/Aquilae).

Rhyperior and Flygon are OU; the latter is okay with me. Rhyperior still sucks, I can't seem to find a way for it to sweep. Still, in my matches, I had to sacrifice at least one Pokemon per game in order to stop bulkier variants in the Sandstorm.

GYara counter LOL *shot*

Azelf is still number 1 lead... odd, since Aero outspeeds it. I would actually think that Aero would see more usage... where was he on the usage list?

HOW is E-Vire still OU? They need to kick that thing out already. does nothing unless you use the old GyaraVire combo.

Scizor was obvious.

Syaoran December 10th, 2008 7:34 PM

It was explained exceptionally well on smogon why Electivire is still OU and has the potential to stay that way. Basically, in short, it has many chances to come in on the top most used pokemon, get a motor drive boost, and threaten to OHKO them. Expert Belt is probably ideal to use on him because he can still take an unstabbed hit while scoring a super effective hit on most (all?) of them. People just use him too early in the game, or just don't think he can come in a second time after losing the speed boost, which is underrating his power.

sims796 December 11th, 2008 6:25 AM

Level 40 now. Almost got that elusive Swords Dance.

I agree with Syaoran. I never understood all the Vire hate, it just has too much raw potential, with great stats (you'll be lying if you say otherwise), and such a diverse moveset, only seen on Normal types. Just because you seem to have a bit of trouble using it properly, doesn't mean they suck. Not particulary aiming this at anyone, mind you.

"Gotta know when to hold em'...know when to fold em..."

Dark Azelf December 11th, 2008 8:04 AM

Oh on the topic of skymin usage (well not really) if you dont know ,shaymin-s is now uber ... for at least a month and will be re-tested after the lati twins are (according to smogon). It's interesting to say the least on how the Lati's (without soul dew) will perform and how they will influence the metagame.

Archer December 11th, 2008 8:25 AM

I honestly think they'll be a bit overpowered for OU. 5 Weaknesses may help make up for the insane stats (even without Soul Dew).
The lack of a decent Fire Attack makes them easier to deal with, although even a +2 Dragon Pulse comes close to a 2HKO on the Standard Bronzong.

They're fast, bulky, offensively gifted and have one of the best Offensive Types in that game for a STAB. They'll be lucky to get in to OU even without Soul Dew.

Oh and good riddance to Shaymin-S. :D

Syaoran December 11th, 2008 9:09 AM

I remember when we had the [email protected] tourney here, everyone used a CB tar, while not even using [email protected] in their teams. We pretty much agreed that they weren't overpowered without Soul Dew, but then again if you have to use bulky CBTar in every team it's pretty much overcentralizing. Maybe stall is an alternative solution, particularly Blissey with Toxic.. but that's pretty situational too. I wonder what new counters people can come up with.

Samson December 11th, 2008 1:43 PM

latios has some serious potential. i really don't see much going on for latias, tho. they failed to give it reflect. CM and recover is the only 2 things that would make it a threat.

holy hell, i just noticed something -- Honchkrow got Heatwave!! can't wait to use SDKrow O_O

boo836 December 11th, 2008 2:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 4184530)
- Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza occupy the top 3 spots in uber.

Not suprised, since weather is really starting to matter more when everything is starting to revolve around full out attacking and with scizor, metagross and forry, people want to soften the blows, others want to hurt them and some wish to stop it.

I'm amazed that no one uses trick in ubers. And with kyogre lurking around, why don't people use the Rotom forms? Scarf Rotom-W didn't do too bad for me in ubers.

Gars129 December 11th, 2008 3:11 PM

Latios is very similar to azelf, trading attack for sp. def and better movepool. Latios is easier for blissey to wall and has 5 less speed, meanin gengar has a shot at defeating it.


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