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-   -   Metagame Discussion Thread (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=162124)

mtr12 December 27th, 2008 8:30 PM

I agree w/ many of the earlier posts. When I go on Shoddy, it seems that every match is turning into a game to see who can set up and sweep first, compared to Netbattle's sub, toxic, and stall games that lasted over 60 turns. 2 SD's on my Scizor and I practically automatically win. If the enemy's Gyara gets a couple DD's on, I've lost.

But I haven't seen many Reversal/Flail sets yet, probably because of priority moves.

I always lead w/ Yanmega, and I am surprised to hardly see any other ones out there. He's a good guy w/ a beastly SpecA.

Course, this might not be news to any of you. But whatever. The game has taken on a pokerlike atmosphere as of now.

Archer December 28th, 2008 9:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtr12 (Post 4230195)
I agree w/ many of the earlier posts. When I go on Shoddy, it seems that every match is turning into a game to see who can set up and sweep first, compared to Netbattle's sub, toxic, and stall games that lasted over 60 turns. 2 SD's on my Scizor and I practically automatically win. If the enemy's Gyara gets a couple DD's on, I've lost.

But I haven't seen many Reversal/Flail sets yet, probably because of priority moves.

I always lead w/ Yanmega, and I am surprised to hardly see any other ones out there. He's a good guy w/ a beastly SpecA.

Course, this might not be news to any of you. But whatever. The game has taken on a pokerlike atmosphere as of now.

I'm assuming you mean an "all or nothing/fast wins and losses" atmosphere? It's been like this since early DP.

At least the game's starting to settle, now. We've all gotten used to the new threats and overcentralising ones have been removed. If [email protected] is brought it, it will create major chaos.

Anti December 28th, 2008 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4233106)
I'm assuming you mean an "all or nothing/fast wins and losses" atmosphere? It's been like this since early DP.

At least the game's starting to settle, now. We've all gotten used to the new threats and overcentralising ones have been removed. If [email protected] is brought it, it will create major chaos.

How has it been like this since early DP? There was a one or two month period of almost all stall because of obistall, and before that in early DP Garchomp was rarely seen with a Choice Band or Yache Berry and physical Electivire was considered a huge threat. It went from fairly balanced to stall to bulky offense to all-out offense.

Also Garchomp over centralizing was a myth at best that people used to justify its ban

also, Latias being brought in won't bring major chaos...how would you even know? It's actually a lot like Alakazam in the sense that status still screws it over and any strong physical attack will essentially do it in, only it trades extra bulk for less special attack and speed. I mean, I just don't see how you can make that conclusion when testing has only just begun and it is easily countered and still possible to revenge kill. o_O

Archer December 28th, 2008 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4233200)
How has it been like this since early DP? There was a one or two month period of almost all stall because of obistall, and before that in early DP Garchomp was rarely seen with a Choice Band or Yache Berry and physical Electivire was considered a huge threat. It went from fairly balanced to stall to bulky offense to all-out offense.

Also Garchomp over centralizing was a myth at best that people used to justify its ban

From the start, DP has been a more Offensively based Metagame. Sure, at first, it was not nearly as bad. And yes, there was a period of Stall, however, in all it has remained a more offensive and fragile Metagame. "Sir, I has an evidence. Offense got Life Orb, two new Choice Items and Nasty Plot. Defence got... Roost?"

Three things that you don't discuss with friends: Money, Politics and the Garchomp Ban. :D

Quote:

also, Latias being brought in won't bring major chaos...how would you even know? It's actually a lot like Alakazam in the sense that status still screws it over and any strong physical attack will essentially do it in, only it trades extra bulk for less special attack and speed. I mean, I just don't see how you can make that conclusion when testing has only just begun and it is easily countered and still possible to revenge kill. o_O
I was refering to making a mess of the finally settling Metagame. Sure, it might be perfectly viable, although it will still raise Metagross/TTar usage, people will freak out and carry more Ice Attacks. ...If you know what I mean. :D[/inside joke]

Anti December 28th, 2008 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4233239)
From the start, DP has been a more Offensively based Metagame. Sure, at first, it was not nearly as bad. And yes, there was a period of Stall, however, in all it has remained a more offensive and fragile Metagame.

Three things that you don't discuss with friends: Money, Politics and the Garchomp Ban. :D


I was refering to making a mess of the finally settling Metagame. Sure, it might be perfectly viable, although it will still raise Metagross/TTar usage, people will freak out and carry more Ice Attacks. ...If you know what I mean. :D[/inside joke]

wat

It was never offensive in early DP. Early DP was very balanced, probably leaning towards offense, but "offensive" is an overstatement. Offensive is when the goal is to sweep, not just carrying 2 or 3 sweepers. I think bulkygyara is the perfect analogy for the evolution of the DP metagame: It started being able to take hits and sweep okay and then started adding all these attack EVs and a Life Orb. BulkyGyara was considered one of the toughest sweepers around...if that's offensive then this is "wall are obsolete Blissey is BL at best" stuff ._.

Besides, you can't just ignore the very long period of stall that had a huge impact on stall as well as the time Wobbuffet was around, which basically kept stall intact as it was coming apart. Early DP was at most bulky offense (but it really wasn't - it was balanced) and after came heavy stall...it's only very recently that it's been heavy offense (basically when husk had his team, which wasn't that long ago). Saying that DP has been "fragile" from the outset when Blissey, Bronzong, and Cresselia were right up there the whole time...I don't get it to be frank.

I don't see how a slight increase in a couple of pokemons' usage is creating "major chaos" though >_> I don't even think that minor of a shift is even notable.

Archer December 28th, 2008 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4233259)
wat

It was never offensive in early DP. Early DP was very balanced, probably leaning towards offense, but "offensive" is an overstatement. Offensive is when the goal is to sweep, not just carrying 2 or 3 sweepers. I think bulkygyara is the perfect analogy for the evolution of the DP metagame: It started being able to take hits and sweep okay and then started adding all these attack EVs and a Life Orb. BulkyGyara was considered one of the toughest sweepers around...if that's offensive then this is "wall are obsolete Blissey is BL at best" stuff ._.

Besides, you can't just ignore the very long period of stall that had a huge impact on stall as well as the time Wobbuffet was around, which basically kept stall intact as it was coming apart. Early DP was at most bulky offense (but it really wasn't - it was balanced) and after came heavy stall...it's only very recently that it's been heavy offense (basically when husk had his team, which wasn't that long ago). Saying that DP has been "fragile" from the outset when Blissey, Bronzong, and Cresselia were right up there the whole time...I don't get it to be frank.

I don't see how a slight increase in a couple of pokemons' usage is creating "major chaos" though >_> I don't even think that minor of a shift is even notable.

Okay, I see what you're saying, although I was merely saying that DP has been slighlty more offensive than RSE to begin with. Normal sweepers could suddenly break walls. SkarmBliss died as a massive combo, etc. Even if players didn't make it that much more offensive, the new additions seemed to be all in favour of Offense.

I still maintain that [email protected] will create some impact, considering it will be a threat and people have never had to deal with it before. Look at the Deoxys craze; Bronzong and Metagross usage went up, and there was quite a bit of movement going on there. Even if [email protected] isn't as much of a threat.

Anti December 28th, 2008 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4233281)
Okay, I see what you're saying, although I was merely saying that DP has been slighlty more offensive than RSE to begin with. Normal sweepers could suddenly break walls. SkarmBliss died as a massive combo, etc. Even if players didn't make it that much more offensive, the new additions seemed to be all in favour of Offense.

I still maintain that [email protected] will create some impact, considering it will be a threat and people have never had to deal with it before. Look at the Deoxys craze; Bronzong and Metagross usage went up, and there was quite a bit of movement going on there. Even if [email protected] isn't as much of a threat.

"all or nothing/fast wins and loses" is a lot different than "it's a little more offensive than ADV" ._.

And of course they will create an impact, but seeing that like half of the top ten doesn't really fear it I don't see how the impact will be big. Maybe I'm severely underestimating Latias but in our original test it didn't do much at all :x Besides, all that is is overreaction, and in due time (like, a week since this is no Deoxys-Speed) it will have settled in. Yeah people have never had to deal with it before, but people have had CM Suicune and Raikou and they have had SpecsMence...so it's not the adjustment that is was when Deoxys-S came when the game had never seen anything like it before.

Archer December 29th, 2008 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4233303)
"all or nothing/fast wins and loses" is a lot different than "it's a little more offensive than ADV" ._.

I was trying to make sense of mtr12's comment of "he game has taken on a pokerlike atmosphere as of now."

Anti December 29th, 2008 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4233385)
I was trying to make sense of mtr12's comment of "he game has taken on a pokerlike atmosphere as of now."

...But he was right. It's not like it's been that way forever either.


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