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-   -   Fic idea: how to portray TMs (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=163232)

Venia Silente December 16th, 2008 3:45 PM

Fic idea: how to portray TMs
 
So... I spent a very productive nigh of writing a couple of days ago, when this strange idea came to my mind as a writing project for summer (winter for you Northern Hemisphere guys!).

The thing is, we all know how TM's work, right? You attach a damn CD to your Pokémon's head, watch the sparks, and BANG!!!! Move learnt. Right? --- Wrong. I guess...

What I want is to explore they way moves are taught in a somewhat more realistic view. Like, for example, a TM may actually be some kind of kit with materials for a crash course on <insert name of attack here>. As Swift is specified to never miss, maybe the course includes such things as discardable targets or a pointing laser device. What about TMs you can teach to Pokémon that may learn them naturally anyways? Like Flamethrower, for example. Maybe the TM is just a set of devices intended to prepare a younger, less mature Pokémon body, to withstand the energy needed for the attack. Or what about things like Taunt or Theft? They are more like an “attitude” or method of attacking than an actual skill or secret power, so maybe the TM for Theft includes a bandana that the Trainer must hold while he plays catch me if you can with their Pokémon.

And, of course, speaking of Trainers, why must be the technique taught “automatically” for the Trainer's use? It should require both the Pokémon and the trainer to learn, right? After all, the trainer has to learn to decide how to use the attack, what are the consequences, or what should be expect once he shouts a new command.

Bottom idea: present TMs in a manner more realistic that the classic Autorun CD you can find in these ISP packages.

How would I write this, anyway? Well, I thought first of a title, which would be something that refers to the concept of TM in more than one way. My candidate title right now is «TM: Training Moments».

I would basically write each “chapter” as a short story depicting how the Trainer, after (somehow) acquiring the “Teaching Mechanism”, actually spends some time with their Pokémon while teaching them how to use said technique. One chapter per TM. No HMs, they are too "common-sense" to be teachable like this, I think... And not all TMs however, or I'll never finish. I want to focus on the ones that seem less natural or more human for a Pokémon to have. For example, why would a Pokémon meddle with convincing the foe to use the same attack every time? What value has to a Pokémon an attack that upon contact forces him to return to his Poké Ball, even if he is winning the battle?

For characters I would mostly use anonymous “character-of-the-day” style trainers with their Pokémon. However, I will dedicate some chapters to my original characters, so that I can also improve my writing about them. Heck if this thing works and somehow becomes loved I may accept requests from other writers to have their OTs in a chapter, too. I doubt I will touch canon characters.

Note that, if this gets a go, it will be a project for (your) summer. That means that the first entries, assuming they are betaread, would be published as late as March, or even April. Also note that this will not be one of the two "????" announced projects on my signature. It will be more like an extra.

I would write it anyways, as I want to write more detailed trainer battles (one of my goals as a Pokémon FF writer), and learn how to write short stories, but I wanted to ask for advice, as well as for the more experienced writers' perceptions, before trying something like this. After all, this is one of “those areas” of canonness that are interesting and challenging to face. Like Pokéspeech, Pokémon storage, and stuff like that...

And thus, I await for opinions.

Rabbit December 16th, 2008 4:15 PM

From the title, I thought this was going to be an idea for all of us to use. You would allow that, right? xD Fan fic writers need a guideline for TMs, because they are hella useful - give Earthquake to almost anything and it becomes twice as dangerous - but the way they work in the games isn't realistic. I wouldn't dare to write about sticking a CD in my Pokemon's head that automatically teaches it a move.

One thing your TM idea is missing - TMs are one-time use. Are you going to change that? I can't see how it would work, frankly.

I think the chapters would really work. Better yet, they would show other fan fic writers how to do this right, and set the standard for later representations of TMs in fanfics. How cool is that?

Buoysel December 16th, 2008 4:44 PM

Referring to the anime: Episode 287; All Things Bright and Beautifly!

The Pokmon knows the move, but has to master it. They just can do the move, but they can't.

Whether it's not that powerfully, or they can't hold the attack for very long, it's your choice.

Astinus December 16th, 2008 7:46 PM

To add to Buoysel's post, because he brought up the anime, how TMs are used depends on the canon world the fic is written in. I know that, from what I last saw of the anime, that TM moves are taught to the Pokemon by the trainer training it. (Novel concept, no?)

Take, for instance, Ash's Treecko/Grovyle. He wanted to teach it Bullet Seed, so Ash showed the Pokemon what to do by actually spitting watermelon seeds, and having the Pokemon do the same. Once the basic idea was down, it was up to the Pokemon to practice getting control of the energy inside of it well enough to actually perform the attack, and then perform the attack well.

I also remember that in Toshiro Ono's manga, that the TM was a box that could be cracked open, and a powder would fall onto the Pokemon, instantly giving the Pokemon knowledge of the attack.

So there is that to consider, that there have already been other canon views on how TMs work.

Also, a lot of writers have their own views. Some use the CDs idea. Others follow the anime. And then there are other ideas.

That said, you can write this, which you will anyhow. Just know that some writers will still follow their own ways.

One last thing...

Quote:

Heck if this thing works and somehow becomes loved I may accept requests from other writers to have their OTs in a chapter, too. I doubt I will touch canon characters.
So, you're not touching the canon characters, which are easily possible to get in canon without arguments. But you are willing to write about other people's original characters, which are more difficult for other writers to get in character.

Okay!

DGexe December 16th, 2008 8:17 PM

Great, now that I've found this, I had an idea.

Right now... this only works for Pokegears, and there is a HUGE chance that this wouldn't work because of the size of the TM/HM CD vs a Pokegear. Ahem, on to my point.

What if there was a slot in the bottom of the 'gear where one could slot in the TM/HM CD? Then, from there, you could activate the info within the disc, hold it close to the Pokemon in question, and its aura/energy power would absorb the data? ... You can turn them into PC data in the games, after all...

From there... well, the Pokemon could practice the newly acquire move? Yes, it would have the knowledge, but it wouldn't have the expertise to use it yet. It'd have to... well, practice.

Venia Silente December 16th, 2008 8:39 PM

Thanks for the input, Buoysel, Rabbit, DGExe and Astinus.

You're right, Rabbit, in that I had not considered the idea of TM's being one-time-use. Probably the interpretation of a "training kit", or that of the powder box that Astinus mentioned and that I was not aware of (I haven't read much of the manga which is unfortunate, as I've enjoyed it a lot) take quite care of this. Think, for example, a DRM-locked training video of an exploding Charizard flamethrowering Sentret (wait a moment, that one does actually have sense!).

That would bring quite an interesting point. TMs may be one-time-use because of both a commercial interest (some of the moves are qite powerful, after all) and because of (intended) design (on one wants a world of flamethrowering Sentrets, right? RIGHT?). It is there where HMs come. Being moves so common (like, come on, "Cut"? "Surf"?), they may be either a social byproduct of the sell of TMs (we're so rich we can even patent and sell everyday moves for a nickel), or a completely paralell concept such as "free TMs" (with "free" as in "free software"). It would also pretty easily accomodate DGExe's view in that HMs can be somewhat ofa hacked TM", after all the games do state that they are very, very rare and that one has to go through somewhat less than of a hell to get one. Or be very lucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGExe
Right now... this only works for Pokegears, and there is a HUGE chance that this wouldn't work because of the size of the TM/HM CD vs a Pokegear. Ahem, on to my point.

No, DGExe, yours is actually a very good point. Unless the same technology for Poké Balls is used somehow, the idea of training kits has pretty much no future. At least for a roaming/traveling trainer.

And so, with the insta-learn-but-has-to-practice thing, that is exactly one of the what I anted to portray. After all, some of the TMs are actually latent moves, and the ones that are not, are similar enough to other attacks that except for a particular force imbued in the Pokémon by the device (think Swift), it can be learned by imitation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus
...TM moves are taught to the Pokemon by the trainer training it. (Novel concept, no?)

Between its probably intended seriousness and the intent I could actually read, that made my day. :D

And, Astinus, I of course do not intend to write a guide on TMs or something. Just a more well-documented attempt to a realistic expression. If it ends up being somewhat of a guide, that is determined by how valuable do other writers see the final result. Best case scenario? The thread becomes stickied. Worst case scenario? It falls to the back of the post pool, where only the purists and the "Advance Search" users will find it, anway.

That said, the "training kit" idea is intended to actually expand, on the commercial sense TMs would have, on things such as the trainer mimicking attacks to teach them to their Pokémon, like what DGExe said. It's nowhere stated that a Trainer can not teach a Pokémon a move by doing things like those, and in fact I think even the games address that issue by having Move Tutors (note the intials...). You can always pick a branch and teach your Cubone how to Bone Club first-hand, right? But having a quality product that will ease your work and probably automate and shorten most of the process, adds another layer to actual Pokémon training.

It's just that I have seen no one actually expand on the idea. Probably because of the multitude of canons.

Oh, canons! On the thing of not using canon characters, Astinus, that's because I'm somewhat afraid of doing so. So far my only involvement with canon has been mention-by-passing, or very short and easily acommodable guest starrings such as the case of Giovanni. I could dare, once I get lots of EXP, but... just not yet. Of course some one else will. So I would invite everyone else to write about their characters. They can do them better than me.

If that worked, it would build on the idea of an "attack library". And to avoid flooding the forum with new threads of "My own version of <insert TM here>" fics, mine -- or, more strictly, the first published-- could work as an index of sorts where people can submit their ideas. I don't know the rules for collaborative fics here, if any. So I should check that out.

See? That's why I was asking for Ideas. It's nice to see various broad perceptions on the subject. And I highly appreciate that Buoysel has somehow survived me flooding his Inbox for the day, and found the time to post his opinion.

Now, I should really go and do some TM44. Or else I'll get into an TM87.

JX Valentine December 16th, 2008 9:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solovino (Post 4200886)
TMs may be one-time-use because of both a commercial interest (some of the moves are qite powerful, after all)

Surf = base 95 power, 100% accuracy, and possibly the most common offensive Water-type move to encounter in PvP play.
Waterfall and Strength = base 80 power, 100% accuracy.
Rock Climb = base 90 power, 85% accuracy.

Compare to the likes of Dig and Rock Tomb.

Quote:

and because of (intended) design (on one wants a world of flamethrowering Sentrets, right? RIGHT?).
What about Thunderbolt, which could potentially serve as an emergency generator?

Quote:

Being moves so common (like, come on, "Cut"? "Surf"?),
Waterfall?

Quote:

after all the games do state that they are very, very rare and that one has to go through somewhat less than of a hell to get one. Or be very lucky.
Most TMs tend to be one-of-a-kind and in hard-to-reach areas as well, so I'd say they're also very rare. (This is implied when it's emphasized by the first person who gives you a TM that you should be extremely careful with which Pokemon you give it to.)

Compare this with Cut, which is always obtained by walking up to someone and asking for it. (In fact, in gens III and IV, you didn't even really have to complete any tasks to get it.)

Quote:

It falls to the back of the post pool, where only the purists
...Purists?

Seriously, it's cool that you're looking to explain how each TM is taught, but I'll have to warn you about a couple of things:

1. I really hope you don't actually expect this to become the end-all of the debate as to what TMs actually do. Lots of people have come up with their own ideas, and yes, there are some canon examples (such as Toshihiro Ono's suggestion involving the boxes). It'd be cool to see how you interpret it, but in the end, it'll still be fan interpretation, not a guide as to how things should be done.

2. Depending on how you're eventually going to straighten things out, it sounds like the story may become redundant. As in, once we've seen how you think one TM should be taught, wouldn't it follow essentially the same manner? To further clear this example, think of it like this. Let's say you decide that a TM is actually a training kit. So, your first installment will have the kid go out with this kit he found, set up the training routine he found inside, and send his Pokemon off to go through it until that Pokemon finally learns whatever it is they're setting out to learn.

Okay, fine. Great. That's one move. Then, for your second installment, you have this other kid go out with this kit he found, set up the training routine he found inside, and send his Pokemon off to go through it until that Pokemon finally learns whatever it is they're setting out to learn.

...Okay. Great. Got it. Training regimen. Obstacle course. Refining maneuvers until Pokemon gets it. The reader's starting to get the idea. So, for your third installment, you have this other kid go out with... Yeah.

I don't mean to discourage you, of course, but I'm just saying that it'd be great to see your own take on the issue, so long as you sit down and really think about what you're doing and how you're executing it. The problem with your format as it is is that you're expecting yourself to write a whole ninety-two short stories (assuming you don't go back into previous generations, which had TMs that don't exist anymore, like Teleport) with basically the same concept over and over again. That's, frankly, probably going to get as thrilling as watching a marathon of the Johto fillers.

That and you'll want to see about addressing canon somehow as well, even if you're thinking of going strictly by game canon.

Venia Silente December 16th, 2008 10:15 PM

Oh come on Xanthine, you know I appreciate when you are blunt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthine
Rock Climb = base 90 power, 85% accuracy.

Rock Climb? I really should get up to date with Gen IV, it seems...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthine
What about Thunderbolt, which could potentially serve as an emergency generator?

Like pretty much any non-physical, continuous Electric attack? But I do get your point here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthine
Quote:

Originally Posted by solovino
after all the games do state that they are very, very rare and that one has to go through somewhat less than of a hell to get one. Or be very lucky.

Most TMs tend to be one-of-a-kind and in hard-to-reach areas as well, so I'd say they're also very rare. (This is implied when it's emphasized by the first person who gives you a TM that you should be extremely careful with which Pokemon you give it to.)

Compare this with Cut, which is always obtained by walking up to someone and asking for it. (In fact, in gens III and IV, you didn't even really have to complete any tasks to get it.)

Yeah, but I was talking specifically about why that view of HMs as "rare". I fail to remark enough the concept of "hacked", as in "not normaly done", thus one would expect to find/receive an HM only after a very specific chain of events, no matter how easy those tasks or events are... to beat everyone in the ship, plus a Rival, and watch the captain to throw up, for example. Compare to the alternative in the manga, where Red tried to go down the depths of the Seafoam sea to get a Surf HM, move of which had not been shown up to that point, and not only does he find the object guarded by a wild Pokémon, but the containing device it is destroyed quite easily; whereas, in comparison, the concept of the Fly HM is shown as something that "simply happened" in the cases of Blue and Green.

TMs do have to be more "rare" in the sense of "difficult to find". HMs would be rare in a sense of "why would anyone create them anyways?" (except for some cases, like maybe Rock Smash).

And, Xanthine, don't worry, I explicitly stated that I was not to do the complete :paranoid: 132 (I think) different TMs. That would be a frenzy. It is a summer (winter) project for Giratina's sake. I do, however, intend to do ones that would be somehow interesting. Taunt/Torment and *‑Power seem very interesting to do. Beat Up too, for other reasons :bandit: ... That of course means I can't do the "GaryStu #1 finds TM, GaryStu#2 finds TM, GaryStu #3 finds TM, rinse, lathe, repeat..." routine. Of course I've got to study case by case to find how can I bring something new into the equation, like, I don't know, having the trainer be the one to actively poke his Pokémon for Frustration. Or have one Pokémon teach its move to another (the Bug and Ground types are ideal for this).

Again, I do not intend for a guide, but for something better than the average at least in a realistic sense. As usual, that's why I'm asking. And even now, it is turning out somewhat useful.

Of course, if it ends up with some of the TMs, like the *‑Beam family, going more striclty with game canon, which is something I would actually expect, then the better, sort of. And then we have that particular case where a fourteen-year-old Gym Leader actually discovered a move and made it a TM. But it's difficult trying to get rid of the mental image of a trainer trying to teach Attract, Roost or (even better) Facade to their Pokémon, when it turns out to be a somewhat funny image. My first idea for Facade was actually...
Spoiler:
A fighting trainer teaching Drunken Boxing to her Pokémon


Oh, and before leaving, I'll have no time for a TM44, because:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthine
That's, frankly, probably going to get as thrilling as watching a marathon of the Johto fillers.

Quoted for yottabytes of :laugh:. Despite how much I liked some of the Johto series, I have to admit it was too much filler for anyone's good.

Miz en Scène December 17th, 2008 12:51 AM

Sorry to Intrude, but I have a suggestion, maybe TM's could be a CD that you slot into some sort of headgear. And after using the TM, the CD will be rendered useless like some Antivirus CD's in the real world. HM's however could be as Solovino said

Quote:

(we're so rich we can even patent and sell everyday moves for a nickel)
This is one of the many possible theories.

Ninja Caterpie December 17th, 2008 1:24 AM

The answer to TMs, HMs and general impossible-stuff in the Pokémon world - the Pokédex. :P You stick the TM (in my fic it's a NDS-cartridge sized thing) into the Pokédex/DS/GBA/Pokégear/PokéNav and it goes pow and transfers stuff into the Pogeyman at hand. Then, it gets the ability to do it but is majorly pathetic at it without training.


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