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Marauding Master November 5th, 2007 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichaste Pekoni (Post 3053276)
If you have Solemn Judgement down, then, uh...why not just use it to negate the card in the first place!!!?????? DUH. In that case, you don't even have to worry about what your opponent drew because they won't draw anything. >_>; Oh, and that record (as if it's for real) can't exactly be credited to two cards...



*points at Yubel's effect in its entirety* Smashing, Fissure, & Exiled only help you and DDWL will still be met with damage before removing.

If you run the other dead topdecksmonsters, yes then Smashing would only help you, yes.

And good players go Double Dutch with two counters. Of course you'll use Bribe first. What if exiled hits, allowing his 3stars to slip under my Gbind, for example. Or even worse, imagine LaDD or Des Wombat. You need the Solemn much more than Bribe.

Forci Stikane November 5th, 2007 8:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marauding Master (Post 3053316)
If you run the other dead topdecksmonsters, yes then Smashing would only help you, yes.

ANY Tribute monster is a dead topdeck without anything to tribute for it, so stop using that as an excuse. ...Besides, the chances of Smashing hitting Yubel are actually pretty low, it having 0 DEF and all...

And good players go Double Dutch with two counters. Of course you'll use Bribe first. What if exiled hits, allowing his 3stars to slip under my Gbind, for example. Or even worse, imagine LaDD or Des Wombat. You need the Solemn much more than Bribe.

If that's the card they draw due to Bribe, then you're still paying the Life Points one way or another. At least activating Solemn on the original card gives you a turn to draw into & set another one...or something even worse for your opponent. Oh, and LaDD is about as difficult to get out in the first place as Yubel's other forms (and certainly just as bad of a topdeck), and just one negation puts it at weaker than Monarch/Jinzo, at which point it gets killed and you have to get rid of ALL your played cards for what will probably be a useless monster.

.......By the way, Exiled is 4 stars, not 3. I think that any good player would know that...

Frostweaver November 5th, 2007 8:53 PM

What is LaDD? ^_^;;;

Actually Yubel being hit by Smashing Ground is reasonably high because of its own effect of eating monsters on its own side of the field to maintain itself. More often than not, unless there is tokens of some kind or CotH/Premature, it is alone and thus, fissure and smashing ground will both target the same thing.

Indeed you want to use Dark Bribe first if you have the option to choose which to activate. In a usual deck, there are more monsters than there are spells that can destroy the back row. Solemn the Jinzo/Mobius/Mei kei (more than 2/40) (whatever that name is... I actually got a question about it. If Skill Drain is out already, you can't activate his ability right?), and leave the Bribe to handle the heavy storm/MST (2/40). Dark Bribe is simply not as flexible as solemn, you want to conserve the most flexible card for the worse situation to come.

Possible that Dark Bribe stops the heavy storm but draws the breaker, yes, but chance of that is sooo slim.

Forci Stikane November 5th, 2007 9:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 3053568)
What is LaDD? ^_^;;;

Actually Yubel being hit by Smashing Ground is reasonably high because of its own effect of eating monsters on its own side of the field to maintain itself. More often than not, unless there is tokens of some kind or CotH/Premature, it is alone and thus, fissure and smashing ground will both target the same thing.

Indeed you want to use Dark Bribe first if you have the option to choose which to activate. In a usual deck, there are more monsters than there are spells that can destroy the back row. Solemn the Jinzo/Mobius/Mei kei (more than 2/40) (whatever that name is... I actually got a question about it. If Skill Drain is out already, you can't activate his ability right?), and leave the Bribe to handle the heavy storm/MST (2/40). Dark Bribe is simply not as flexible as solemn, you want to conserve the most flexible card for the worse situation to come.

Possible that Dark Bribe stops the heavy storm but draws the breaker, yes, but chance of that is sooo slim.

Light & Darkness Dragon ......I assume.

Right, right...but ideally you'll have a CotH or something (maybe even a Trap Monster) ready to sacrifice for Yubel without wasting your Normal Summon, so those can also be activated in response to Smashing to take the hit in case you indeed do NOT have the other monsters for it (although I have doubts whether or not a competitive player would use Smashing in the first place and risk it). I'm not going to argue that Fissure's going to always hit it, though.

...Well, Dark Bribe can't stop monster effects, anyway, so you don't exactly have a choice on Jinzo/Mobius. Also, may I remind you once again that that was just an example? It isn't just negating Heavy to draw into Breaker but rather negating a dangerous Spell only for your opponent to draw one just as damaging, if not worse (Shield Crush into NoC, Fissure into Vortex, etc). However, negate the first one with Solemn and not only does your opponent not draw that card, but the card under it is delayed a turn from being drawn as well, giving a sort of Raiza or Jar of Greed-like situation (depending on how you look at it).

Marauding Master November 6th, 2007 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichaste Pekoni (Post 3053553)
If that's the card they draw due to Bribe, then you're still paying the Life Points one way or another. At least activating Solemn on the original card gives you a turn to draw into & set another one...or something even worse for your opponent. Oh, and LaDD is about as difficult to get out in the first place as Yubel's other forms (and certainly just as bad of a topdeck), and just one negation puts it at weaker than Monarch/Jinzo, at which point it gets killed and you have to get rid of ALL your played cards for what will probably be a useless monster.

.......By the way, Exiled is 4 stars, not 3. I think that any good player would know that...

Lol. Useless monster? The last effect is his best one. If you've been doing it right, you'll have a Green Baboon/DMoC/Disk Commander. And yes, I wasn't referring to Exiled attacking. I was referring to him blowing up your monster defense. And it doesn't matter if you pay life points or not. It's just a case of knowing what to chain against. Would you rather not have played Bribe and let his Storm hit you?

To end my discussion on Bribes. In a lockdown deck, 3/40 is just not going to cut it. You need the Bribes to maintain presence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichaste Pekoni (Post 3053590)
Light & Darkness Dragon ......I assume.

Right, right...but ideally you'll have a CotH or something (maybe even a Trap Monster) ready to sacrifice for Yubel without wasting your Normal Summon, so those can also be activated in response to Smashing to take the hit in case you indeed do NOT have the other monsters for it (although I have doubts whether or not a competitive player would use Smashing in the first place and risk it). I'm not going to argue that Fissure's going to always hit it, though.

...Well, Dark Bribe can't stop monster effects, anyway, so you don't exactly have a choice on Jinzo/Mobius. Also, may I remind you once again that that was just an example? It isn't just negating Heavy to draw into Breaker but rather negating a dangerous Spell only for your opponent to draw one just as damaging, if not worse (Shield Crush into NoC, Fissure into Vortex, etc). However, negate the first one with Solemn and not only does your opponent not draw that card, but the card under it is delayed a turn from being drawn as well, giving a sort of Raiza or Jar of Greed-like situation (depending on how you look at it).

If you want to preserve Yubel's from Smashings then I recommend using Interdimensional Matter Transporter. And players would play Smashing on him, if not hitting him, it will at least draw out something.

Scarlet Weather November 6th, 2007 2:24 PM

Once again, I say it: Yubel will want to get killed. Also, as far as useless topdeck goes you need only run one copy of Ritter and Trauren, since both of them get called from the deck. A 2/40 means you have a maybe one in twenty chance of drawing them at all, and if you do you've always got other (albeit extremely situational) uses for them, like dumping them from the hand with Dark World Dealing or tossing them from the deck with Card Trooper in order to set up for Dark Nephtys. (Oh, how I love the corrupted monsters. XD) Anyway, I'm taking notes either way. I don't care how much of a nomi Yubel is, I'm building my deck around it when WC08 comes out. Whether I'll actually use it is another story.

Forci Stikane November 6th, 2007 3:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marauding Master (Post 3054718)
Lol. Useless monster? The last effect is his best one. If you've been doing it right, you'll have a Green Baboon/DMoC/Disk Commander.

Okay, let's run that real quick:

-I kill your LaDD with my Jinzo/Monarch.
-You Special Summon Green Baboon.

-ENEMY CONTROLLER.

-Follow up by tributing for another Jinzo/Monarch.

Really, if somebody like me can poke holes in these plans so easily...there's definitely something wrong with them.

Now, as for Yubel, the last part of the effect still stands. Either you play Smashing and you let your opponent get something worse out or you end up getting blocked.

Frostweaver November 6th, 2007 5:23 PM

I'm not going to comment on LaDD honestly because I admit that somehow I can't get that darn thing out fast enough =( I'm still toying around with it against computer duelists first (regardless of how they're technically incompetent) until I get something I'm decently satisfied with, then I'll talk about LaDD. Certainly it's going to completely influence the metagame, but the question is just how should LaDD be implemented in a deck, and what should go with it. Japanese uses all kinds of monsters to go with LaDD, even samurai (I heard of it a lot but still can't get a deck list of LaDD Samurai... it sounds absurd to me and I'll love to know how the heck does that work.)



As for Yubel, it depends... there are certainly possibilities and reasons why you'll run Yubel, but not any of the other in the same line. Raiou still walks in triplets in OCG, and its effect will just negate and destroy Yubel's attempt to summon the rest of its family. Not to mention, Stun always have the 3 Skull Descalibur too. Talking about Yubel now is really not doing much unless we're talking about OCG setting. TCG is just missing too much to be on the same level to talk about an OCG card.

Marauding Master November 6th, 2007 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichaste Pekoni (Post 3055417)
Okay, let's run that real quick:

-I kill your LaDD with my Jinzo/Monarch.
-You Special Summon Green Baboon.

-ENEMY CONTROLLER.

-Follow up by tributing for another Jinzo/Monarch.

Really, if somebody like me can poke holes in these plans so easily...there's definitely something wrong with them.

Now, as for Yubel, the last part of the effect still stands. Either you play Smashing and you let your opponent get something worse out or you end up getting blocked.

Jinzo doesn't get negated. And it's not a 'plan'. You use Disk or DMoC to get more advantage, and if you have the opening, you go for something stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 3055752)
Japanese uses all kinds of monsters to go with LaDD, even samurai (I heard of it a lot but still can't get a deck list of LaDD Samurai... it sounds absurd to me and I'll love to know how the heck does that work.)

I'm testing Samsam-RaiDa this sunday.

Forci Stikane November 7th, 2007 3:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marauding Master (Post 3056382)
Jinzo doesn't get negated. And it's not a 'plan'. You use Disk or DMoC to get more advantage, and if you have the opening, you go for something stronger.

I didn't say it did.

That actually sounds a lot like a "plan" to me. Disk Commander gets switched into Attack mode for a hit to your LP and DMoC is a solid 2800 when EC'd. My overall point here is that LaDD's revival effect leaves your field wide open for something to hit your monster back at you, Enemy Controller being one of the bigger examples. Granted, if you're hoping for the recursion effect, you won't have that many cards out on the field (if at all), so you'll have to deal exclusively with what's in your hand (which, may I remind you, has a size limit). However, if you're topdecking, that leaves you with only a few cards to go against whatever's left over after LaDD dies. This, the two-tribute, and the impossibility of a dump/revive makes it an incredibly horrible topdeck, especially compared to something more flexible like Monarch.

Oh, and LaDD is usually going to get killed on your opponent's turn, giving them time to counter whatever you pull out. Most good players will probably have either a Fissure/Smashing that they saved or some Quick-Play in their hand, like Enemy Controller. Even if you suicide LaDD, the monster you bring out will still be vulnerable to anything your opponent had set while waiting for LaDD to die. The best you could get here would be either Disk Commander in defense, whose two cards would just negate the -2 for tributing it, or DMoC's spell right before he gets killed by something.

All in all, I'm calling LaDD not worth it right now. Most competent players will probably only let two cards MAX get negated before killing it (loses to Breaker w/counter at that point), unless of course they're trying to DDWL it, at which case that's three (I wonder how that would work, actually...would LaDD's effect still trigger if it was already determined to be destroyed in battle?). Then, the monster that comes out with its effect after nuking your entire field will be expected and almost immediately destroyed, ruining the majority of your work. The "No Special Summoning" part only makes it harder to come out. I could only see it getting teched in a Phoenix deck, if even that.

That's all I have to say on it.

Frostweaver November 7th, 2007 4:55 PM

LaDD is definitely worth the double tribute. We really need more powerful effects like that to be persuaded of double tribute summon. LaDD pays itself for every card negated, and althought you can say the usual 2400 can kill it after just after one negation, but again it's a tempo card and a lock. People may actually put out more monster out with LaDD to add to pressure. Shien, Jinzo and other continuous monster effect cards go decently well with LaDD. Afterall, the less card they can activate, then the less capable they are of lowering LaDD enough to a point of defeating it in battle.

You can still use spell/traps with LaDD out as long as you chain it after LaDD's effect too, so keep that in mind.

Indeed you can always use enemy controller (but that's a 2/40) to switch the Disc Commander from LaDD's recursion to score major damage, but then I think the LaDD player will know the potential risk and got some LP to withstand a hit or two. 2 cards are very tempting (and according to the very old CA/LP ratio a few banlists ago in the days where CA goes crazy with tsukuyomi, 2 cards worth 3000 LP.)

LaDD is definitely worth it. The challenge is who can think of the best tribute fodder setup than the others for LaDD. I don't think LaDD will win the SJC in Dec because it still needs some experience and time to be tempered with, but it will win after a few SJC just like Samurai. Samurai didn't win SJC the moment it came out, but instead a few SJC later.

Marauding Master November 7th, 2007 11:24 PM

I tried SPoN/LaDD. Doesn't work at all. I tried Beat/LaDD and it doesn't work too well either so I have only Perfect Circle, Samurai and Pure to test.

Anyway Ichaste, usually, to kill LaDD you have to go -2 or lower, while I get a +1 or +3 depending on the monster I summon. Maybe a -1 or so too if I have a good backrow card. You'll probably destroy it with attacking as well so I don't see the use of Quick-Plays if I summon my monster in defense position(Which I probably will, you can't usually hammer through Baboon or DMoC anyways. Sure you can kill the monster but if it's DMoC or Disk Commander, I already got a plus out of it anyway.

So while you're left with basically no cards. I have a 3 card minimum with Disk Commander the next turn. Not that I usually have to topdeck anyway.

I hope Gameking updates soon.

Forci Stikane November 9th, 2007 2:02 PM

......I know I said that I was done, but I did some testing with LaDD just to be fair, and I discovered one very giant loophole: Treeborn Frog. That is ALL it takes to stop LaDD's negation effect. Seriously, all you need to do is keep trying to summon Frog and LaDD will just drain itself out, making your loss actually a -0. Afterwards, Fissure/Zaborg it or something, then Brain Control whatever comes up and go for the kill...or just DDWL it and leave it at that. So,...I don't exactly call that an advantage.

If you don't believe me, Frostweaver can try it for himself to confirm it.

Marauding Master November 10th, 2007 8:45 AM

3 sidedecked D. D. Crows will do the trick.

Frostweaver November 10th, 2007 9:52 AM

2 or 3 D.D.Crow is in every sidedeck nowadays anyway... because we're still stuck in the era of recursion tricks in most decks, but mainly the zombies still. Destiny Heroes are also related of course.

Not sure if LaDD will try to negate Crow since technically Crow is never played on the field... if it does, then you'll have to be sure to chain it after LaDD's effect so it doesn't get negated.

Marauding Master November 10th, 2007 5:07 PM

It's negated, LaDD negates all (multi) triggers.

Scarlet Weather November 12th, 2007 7:31 PM

NEW CARD FTW!!!! (In America)

Knight of the End
Monster/Dark/Warrior/Effect/4*
Atk 1400/ Def 1300
When this monster is normal summoned, flip summoned, or special summoned send one dark-attribute monster from your deck to the graveyard.

Ah, Phantom of Darkness, how we adore thee. Zombie has a new method of tossing big hitters to the graveyard, methinks. To top that off, we're paving the way for new "Corrupted" monsters who take advantage of darks in the graveyard. Hooboy.

Frostweaver November 12th, 2007 10:34 PM

Besides those more obvious tricks, there's of course, the dumping of Exodia pieces to speed up the recollection from the graveyard (but this won't work due to DD Crow being everywhere lately.) There has to be other dump/revive tricks too besides zombie... Apart from that, I can't think of too many goodies to use with the free dump yet x.x; Not too many other cards need a dark monsters in the graveyard... Sky Scourges worry about the light fairy more than the dark fiend. Necrofear I guess...? o_o;

It's not coming up to my mind right now x.x;

Marauding Master November 13th, 2007 3:23 PM

Foolish Burial anyone? But this card is good. Free Disk Commander.

Frostweaver November 13th, 2007 6:18 PM

Still, like you said, it's going to be compared with foolish burial if you want disc commander... o_o; More flexible that it's still a normal monster if you already dumped everything you want to dump, while Foolish Burial may be a dead card in those situation, but Foolish Burial can send anything to the graveyard.

Haseo, the Sliver Twilight November 15th, 2007 3:51 PM

Light and Darkness Dragon... Isn't that thing at least limited? My friend keeps loking me down with THREE OF THEM!!! I hate it!!! I want one! They're such a pain... I have to waste a lot of useful cards to make it weak enough to kill.

I hate that card.

Alter Ego November 16th, 2007 5:35 AM

If you want to kill Light and Darkness just bring Treeborn Frog like Icha said. It will keep spamming its effect on the Standby Phase and just completely screws the dragon over as Treeborn can activate its effect as many times per Standby Phase as it wants, but there's a limit to how long Light and Darkness Dragon can keep negating it. (and here's the fun/cruel part: because of the way it's worded, it has to keep negating until it runs out of Atk or Def) xD It's also a once-per-chain negation, so if you chain something like Phoenix Wing Wind Blast or Raigeki Break to Light and Darkness when it tries to negate you can blow it off the field. ^^

Anyways, I don't think it's limited (at least not yet) since it can only be summoned by two tributes (no special summon games) and both its effects can bite you if you're not careful. Really, I think the question here is why the flip are you letting your opponent get into a position where they can do three two-tribute normal summons in a single duel. x.O Anyway, it's an interesting card to say the least, but I'm sort of vary of the second effect as it has the potential to completely decimate CA and field presence alike. If you haven't invested much on the field the sure, you've got your Disc Commander or whatever to enjoy, but otherwise it's a pain. (In some freaky Beast/LaDD deck, you could get both your pick of choice from the graveyard and Green Baboon if you had at least one beast out when the dragon went boom, though, but I have no idea what would make that work. xP)

Anyway, Knight of the End looks fun enough. Tomato-searchable precision dump ftw! It's just too bad that it's dark attribute only. I think I'll stick with Foolish Burial myself, because dropping down Treeborn, Dandylion and big recurrable beatsticks is fun that this card just doesn't afford me. I mean, what's it gonna' dump besides Disc Commander, Dasher, Malicious and (lawl) Necroshade or Necro Gardna? (Oh yeah, Vampire Lord and his buddies, right?) Ah well, maybe these new dark monsters that the upcoming booster is all about will answer that.

Speaking of which...Dark Nepthys could do some pretty cool things in combination with Shroud of Darkness (I think that's what it's called? Continuous Spell, let's you discard any dark monster you get on your draw phase and draw again and can be used as many times per phase as you like). Yay for mass dumping. (In a Yubel Deck it ensures that you aren't stuck with one of the nomis in your hand either)


Aaand yeah, bad topdecks are everywhere. Card of Safe Return is the epitome of crappy topdecks yet it's still run in threes because of its high synergy with zombies. Dimension Fusion sucks as a topdeck unless you have made some serious preparations. Future Fusion is a crappy topdeck no matter how you look at it. Yet all of those have been played on a competitive level. As long as the number of bad topdecks is kept in check and balanced by high-utility cards the benefits certainly outweigh the occasional bad draw. And let's face it: what deck doesn't run anything they wouldn't want to topdeck? xP

Marauding Master November 22nd, 2007 1:58 PM

http://shriek.twoday.net/stories/4457830/

Know it's not allowed, etc. But I cannot copypasta things on that site so YA.

Scarlet Weather November 25th, 2007 7:41 PM

Alright...

Warrior Lars
Monster/Earth/Warrior/Effect/4*
Atk 1600/Def 1200
When this monster is successfully normal or special summoned, select one warrior-type monster in your deck other than a "Warrior Lars" and place it on top of your deck.

In other news Exiled Force has just become insanely easy to topdeck into, as well as D.D. Assailant, D.D. Survivor, D.D. Warrior Lady, and all those other fun warrior monsters who do not have "D.D." in their names.

Seriously, I love this card. Pity you can't search it with Sangan, although that would be a bit broken. Warriors Toolbox will probably be running at least a copy or two of this guy, especially since he makes Survivor and Assailant searchable monsters.

Frostweaver November 25th, 2007 9:25 PM

Try a better version of that same card with just lower stats (aka, recruiter-able).


Deep Diver
Aqua/Effect
Lv 3/Water
1000 Atk / 1100 Def

If this card is destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard, at the end of the Battle Phase, select 1 monster from your Deck and place it on top of your Deck.


This is the promo card for WC2008. Fear it when it comes out.

Not restricted by warrior (who got RotA anyway... and there's no really that many good warriors that can't be searched by RotA. There's just Neo, which is sort of stretching it, and even that got E Emergency Call).


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