The PokéCommunity Forums

The PokéCommunity Forums (https://www.pokecommunity.com/index.php)
-   Pokémon Strategies & Movesets (archive) (https://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   A very new team that possibly fails [OU RMT] (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=166670)

Super Puppy January 19th, 2009 2:51 PM

A very new team that possibly fails [OU RMT]
 
EDIT: Changed with everything mentioned so far. Team is now: Gallade, Gengar, Gyarados, Lucario, Celebi, Snorlax (too lazy to find pictures, deal with it).

Gallade @ Expert Belt
Adamant
EVs: 200 Spe, 252 Atk, 52 HP
~Swords Dance
~Shadow Sneak
~Thunder Wave
~Close Combat

I'm still debating weather to lead with Gallade or not. Probably not, but I'm just leaving him here. Anyway, he's my physical sweeper. I made him fairly bulky, so I think he can afford to run SD. I like the addition of Shadow Sneak, as it has much more coverage then my previous moves.


Gengar @ Life Orb
Timid
EVs: 252 SAtk, 252 Spe, 4 SDef
~Focus Blast
~Shadow Ball
~Thunderbolt
~Will-o-wisp/ Hypnosis

Ah, Gengar. I essentially copied this from Smogon, which is probably why nobody made many changes. Sweep away. I know Hypnosis is standard, but WoW cripples many counters not expecting to be hit with it. It's sort of a surprise thing.


Gyarados @ Enigma Berry
Adamant/ Careful
EVs: 156 HP/180 Atk/74 Def/100 Spe
~Ice Fang (huzzah for now having something that kills Dragons!)
~Stone Edge
~Waterfall
~Dragon Dance


Bulkydos? Yes indeed. There must be some reason he's so hated, but meh. This works better than any spread I could come up with. He does a great job covering my Infernape weakness, as well as others.


Lucario @ Choice Scarf
40 Atk / 216 SAtk / 252 Speed
Naive/ Hasty
~Close Combat
~Dark Pulse
~Earthquake
~Hidden Power Ice (???)

Lucario is my mixed sweeper, as well as a Tyranitar counter. The only problem is I don't know if I can get HP Ice, so I might have to find something else to go there.



Snorlax @ Lefties
Careful
EVs: 244 HP / 28 Atk / 236 SDef
~Body Slam
~Rest
~Sleep Talk
~Crunch

Snorlax is my status absorber and special wall. I chose him over Blissey specifically because I like his attack power. The Resttalk combo is formidable and I really think Snorlax excels at this job.


Celebi @ Lefties
Calm/ Modest
EVs: 216 HP/ 220 Def/ 72 SAtk
~Recover
~Psychic
~Stealth Rock
~Grass Knot

Celebi is acting as my physical wall. I think the set is pretty self-explanatory; again, I basically copied it from Smogon. Status, Recovery, and a little attacking. Still debating Psychic.

Weavile1110101 January 19th, 2009 3:42 PM

With Togekiss, you could try increasing the Speed Evs and putting Encore on it. Always handy, especially against stat-boosters. (Maybe remove some SpAtk Evs...) And with Encore, you can always switch to something or force switches.

Not sure about the others. I haven't used any others except Gallade, and Ice Punch is definitely worthwhile. (Get it off Medicham)

Super Puppy January 19th, 2009 3:44 PM

Hmm, I'll consider that for Togekiss. That particular option never crossed my mind, but I rather like the sound of it. Which move do you think I should replace?

Spiritombreeder January 20th, 2009 1:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4295216)
As a note, I just built this team in about five minutes. I completely redid my old team because it went from OU to UU since the last time I was on Smogon. So anyway, I’m sure it’s riddled with flaws and whatnot because it was done so quickly, actually it probably sucks, but this is a very rough draft of a future team for me and I wanted to get some opinions before going much further. On that note, feel free to tear it into little tiny shreds. Enjoy!


Gallade @ ???
Adamant
EVs: 200 Spe, 252 Atk, 52 HP
~Stone Edge
~Night Slash
~Psycho Cut
~Close Combat

This is the one Pokemon I will not get rid of. He may now be in the same tier as Luvdisc (seriously?), but that won’t stop me. He’s my physical sweeper and my lead. I’m still working on his set, clearly (and no, I can’t get Ice Punch. I wish).

What's it doing as a lead, though. Its fine I guess, but why lead with it. It doesn't do anything a lead normally does (sleep, scout, lay rocks), and what it does do it can do better mid game. Use the Swords Dance set. Keep Close Combat, drop Psycho cut since it covers the same things Night Slash does and place Swords Dance over it. Night slash can be replaced with Ice punch, but eh. Move it to a different spot. Of course you can also band it, in which case I'd recommend Shadow Sneak over Night Slash do deal with gengar and the likes.

Gengar @ Life Orb
Timid
EVs: 252 SAtk, 252 Spe, 4 SDef
~Focus Blast
~Shadow Ball
~T-bolt
~Will-o-wisp

I think this is pretty standard. He’s fast, he’s tough, and he’s annoying as hell. A fine sweeper.

What do you plan to burn with Will-o-Wisp, though? Hypnosis is much better over it. It does what its supposed to do, I guess.

Donphan @ ???
Impish
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Atk / 252 Def
~Earthquake
~Ice Shard
~Rapid Spin
~Stealth Rock

I sure like Donphan. He’s very useful and a great asset to the team. Again, I wasn’t creative simply because I think the basic set for him works just fine.

It does a poor job as a spinner though. I'd place a Skarmory here and lead with it, or even lead azelf simply because Togekiss is not enough to warrant wasting a spot for a rapid spinner.

Togekiss @ ???
Modest/ Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 100 SAtk / 108 SDef/ 48 Spe
~Roost
~Air Slash
~Aura Sphere
~T-wave

I’m going for a sort of tank-like thing here. I think Togekiss is great for the job with her solid SDef and dangerous SAtk.

Special tank? I don't see why not. It gives you another levitator if anything. Give it leftovers.

Tangrowth @ Lefties
Impish
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def/ 28 Atk
~Power Whip
~Leech Seed
~Sleep Powder
~Earthquake

With my trend of not-doing-what-this-Pokemon-is-usually-used-for, I’ve created almost a wall here. Actually, I suppose it is a wall. And again, not caring that it’s UU.

But why use it when celebi is the much better choice? Celebi can leech seed, recover itself, and still do a great job of being a wall.

Snorlax @ Lefties
Careful
EVs: 244 HP / 28 Atk / 236 SDef
~Body Slam
~Rest
~Sleep Talk
~Crunch

What can I say? Snorlax is a fabulous special wall, through and through.

Why not blissey? I don't really see why you have snorlax.

Posting x pokemon is good because it is good for its y stat doesn't help. Raters want to know your team building process, and why you picked everything, not what a move does. We all know what gengar can do, but what does he do for your team.
Moreso, putting in a pokemon for the sake of liking it usually isn't the best idea, especially when your team isn't even built to support the pokemon. Lets take your Gallade. One of the listed counters is Gliscor. You don't carry Ice Punch on your Gallade, so what do you plan to do when it switches in? It can indefinitely stall you and none of your pokemon outside of Donphan can really harm it (Tangrowth too, I guess). It can just switch out to something else when it predicts the obvious Ice Shard, leaving you one step behind, again.

Elaborate on your process, is what I'm trying to say.

Super Puppy January 20th, 2009 4:10 PM

I suppose I didn't go very in-depth with my strategy, but as I said, this was rather rushed. My apologies, and thanks for rating anyway.

I could make something other than Gallade my lead. I'll have to debate what though.

Yeah, I'll switch Hypnosis for Will-o-Wisp. That was silly of me.

Donphan isn't the greatest Spinner, but that's not his main purpose. He's a tank and SRer, but I figured Rapid Spin couldn't hurt. If I did end up replacing him, a Spinner wouldn't necessarily take priority. But he has a high Def, which I need.

Thanks for the item tip on Togekiss. That just means I'll have to find another Leftovers.

I guess Tangrowth really isn't the greatest choice of Physical Wall. I was also thinking Weezing, but I guess he's not that fantastic either. Celebi sounds good to me.

I prefer Snorlax over Blissey namely because of his attacking capabilities. I could maybe change him too, though.

EDIT: I was thinking of possibly including a BPer as well. Perhaps Leafeon would work, it could pass Swords Dance (Gallade, Donphan, or maybe even Snorlax could recieve it, so I think it'd be more useful to this team than Nasty Plot) and put foes to sleep with Grasswhistle. Having two sleep-inducers on the team will be fun as well. Just a random thought, as I have no idea who it would replace. But I like Baton Pass, so I might try to work this out. I could maybe replace Togekiss, who's not incredibly helpful anyway. In that case, my team would now be:

Gengar
Gallade
Leafeaon/ other SD passer (possibly with high SDef to balance my defence capabilities)
Celebi
Donphan
Snorlax

I think a team like this might sync a little better. I also kind of like this status-inducing theme I'm beginning. Maybe I'll put a status-inflicting move on Gallade as well (T-wave...)

Thoughts?

EDIT2: NINJASK! I didn't even think of that for some reason... soooooo much better than Leafeon.

Archer January 21st, 2009 4:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4298037)
I suppose I didn't go very in-depth with my strategy, but as I said, this was rather rushed. My apologies, and thanks for rating anyway.

I could make something other than Gallade my lead. I'll have to debate what though.

Yeah, I'll switch Hypnosis for Will-o-Wisp. That was silly of me.

Keep in mind Gallade makes a better lead when it runs Shadow Sneak. It helps with stuff like Azelf.
Swords Dance/Shadow Sneak/Night Slash/Close Combat is probably your best bet.
Quote:

Originally Posted by OP, lol, I dunno.
Donphan isn't the greatest Spinner, but that's not his main purpose. He's a tank and SRer, but I figured Rapid Spin couldn't hurt. If I did end up replacing him, a Spinner wouldn't necessarily take priority. But he has a high Def, which I need.

In that case. Hippowdon is SO much better. It takes hits better, has recovery and SS Stall stuff. Trust me, you'll be fine with SS going. :D
Quote:

Originally Posted by Incredible Miniture Canine

Thanks for the item tip on Togekiss. That just means I'll have to find another Leftovers.

I guess Tangrowth really isn't the greatest choice of Physical Wall. I was also thinking Weezing, but I guess he's not that fantastic either. Celebi sounds good to me.

Tangrowth is, in most cases, better than Weezing. Celebi can be a great tank, but you really want to run it with a bug resist or Heracross gives you massive problems.
Quote:

I prefer Snorlax over Blissey namely because of his attacking capabilities. I could maybe change him too, though.

EDIT: I was thinking of possibly including a BPer as well. Perhaps Leafeon would work, it could pass Swords Dance (Gallade, Donphan, or maybe even Snorlax could recieve it, so I think it'd be more useful to this team than Nasty Plot) and put foes to sleep with Grasswhistle. Having two sleep-inducers on the team will be fun as well. Just a random thought, as I have no idea who it would replace. But I like Baton Pass, so I might try to work this out. I could maybe replace Togekiss, who's not incredibly helpful anyway. In that case, my team would now be:
Gengar
Gallade
Leafeaon/ other SD passer (possibly with high SDef to balance my defence capabilities)
Celebi
Donphan
Snorlax

I think a team like this might sync a little better. I also kind of like this status-inducing theme I'm beginning. Maybe I'll put a status-inflicting move on Gallade as well (T-wave...)

Thoughts?

EDIT2: NINJASK! I didn't even think of that for some reason... soooooo much better than Leafeon.
Well, If you go with Celebi, that can be a Cleric, if you really need it, although you do already have Snorlax for taking status. (Restalk)

As for SD Passing, you can't really benefit from it properly. Gallade learns it already; Donphan and Snorlax are too slow and are easily forced out. Also, Togekiss is not too great at the moment for Shoddy Battle. It's better on Wifi, but Shoddy is rampant with Rotom and Zapdos, which make it hard to use effectively.

I don't mean to sound like I only have bad things to say. You've got potential, but a more structured approach couldn't hurt. :D

dark_seeker January 21st, 2009 4:55 AM

Quote:

Keep in mind Gallade makes a better lead when it runs Shadow Sneak. It helps with stuff like Azelf.
Swords Dance/Shadow Sneak/Night Slash/Close Combat is probably your best bet.
agreed but night slash and shadow sneak hit the same stuff so change out night slash for stone edge or ice punch!!

I dont see why you need a spinner when only 1 of your pokemon are SR weak.
I see mixape weak as after 1 Np he will ko your entire team except maybe togekiss who will take a chunk from flamethrower,and with Sr might get koed.
Gengar could revenge kill...but then again im not sure of that so mabe you wanna add something which can effectivly come in and kill/scare it off.
gyarados does'nt outrun ape but intimidate helps.perhaps gyara over togekiss seeing you have a special wall.

Gyarados @ Lifr Orb
Adamant
72hp/252att/184spd
Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Earthqake
Ice Fang/Sone edge
That would Really cover some of your weaknesses.
you could also try mence,this team has potential.

Dark Azelf January 21st, 2009 5:13 AM

Dos would work and it also helps with that nasty dual priority SD Lucario weakness, since Bullet Punch OHKO's Gengar, ES OHKO's Gallade and CC Finishes the rest of your team off after an SD. Possibly a bulkier set up may be in order for the Dos if you add it, idk but not standard bulkydos since that sucks quite frankly..

Also helps with Scizor weak kinda...

And i generally like the idea of W-O-W on Gengar since it screws up stuff like Meta, Scizor, Tar, Zong and what not in addition to other common switch ins..

Super Puppy January 21st, 2009 4:27 PM

I kind of like the idea of a Gyarados; it does seem useful. I could replace Ninjask for it. But I may do something a little different with the EVs, because right now Snorlax is the only thing I have that can switch in to Special Attackers (since replacing Togekiss). I'm gonna try and pump up it's SDef a little, so I have something like this:

Gyarados @ Enigma Berry/ Lefties
Adamant/ Careful
EVs: 146 HP, 104 Atk, 176 SDef, 80 Spe
Ice Fang (huzzah for now having something that kills Dragons!)
Stone Edge
Waterfall
Dragon Dance

Leaving me with:
Gallade (now at: Swords Dance, Close Combat, Psycho Cut, Shadow Sneak)
Gengar
Snorlax
Celebi
Gyarados
Donphan

The only thing that still concerns me about this team is my rate of physical attackers to special attackers, which is 4:2. But I don't know who to switch for something else. I definatley like where this team is going, though.

Samson January 21st, 2009 9:19 PM

i know you did not just say luvdisc is in the same tier as gallade :o

Super Puppy January 21st, 2009 9:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 4301854)
i know you did not just say luvdisc is in the same tier as gallade :o

They're both in UU. That's basically why I think this new system is awful: Too many Pokemon smushed together in one tier. It's the reason I had to build a new team as well.

The Hero Without a Name January 21st, 2009 9:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4301889)
They're both in UU. That's basically why I think this new system is awful: Too many Pokemon smushed together in one tier. It's the reason I had to build a new team as well.

Meh, it's just to make a NEW UU/BL tier, as well as a NU tier (probably).

dark_seeker January 22nd, 2009 1:24 AM

Quote:

Gyarados @ Enigma Berry/ Lefties
Adamant/ Careful
EVs: 146 HP, 104 Atk, 176 SDef, 80 Spe
Ice Fang (huzzah for now having something that kills Dragons!)
Stone Edge
Waterfall
Dragon Dance
looks ok but the idea of gyarados is to come in on physical sweepers intimidate them and proceed to dd and sweep.the thought of Gyara as a special wallish sweeper is a bad idea.
Go adamant and pump some more eves into attack and defence.

how about.
Gyarados @ Leftovers
156hp/180att/74def/100spd
~Dragon Dance
~Waterfall
~Ice Fang
~Earthquake

now that looks like it can counter some of your weaknesses.And it can still switch into heatrans and such cause of the hp eves.

Dark Azelf January 22nd, 2009 4:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark_seeker (Post 4302182)
looks ok but the idea of gyarados is to come in on physical sweepers intimidate them and proceed to dd and sweep.the thought of Gyara as a special wallish sweeper is a bad idea.
Go adamant and pump some more eves into attack and defence.

how about.
Gyarados @ Leftovers
156hp/180att/74def/100spd
~Dragon Dance
~Waterfall
~Ice Fang
~Earthquake

now that looks like it can counter some of your weaknesses.And it can still switch into heatrans and such cause of the hp eves.

If your gonna do that you might aswell use *shudder* Bulkydos

[email protected]
156 HP / 108 Atk / 100 Def / 144 Speed
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance

*Washes self* ew lol


But yeah it needs more speed to actually outspeed something after a DD to even pose a threat, namely Gengar.

Super Puppy January 22nd, 2009 6:36 AM

I can do a spread something like: 108 HP, 116 Atk, 100 Def, 184 Spe.

I took a little out of HP to increase Spe and Atk, but it's still relativley bulky. I just kind of made that up (I hope I calculated corectly... hehehe), but what do you think?

Syaoran January 22nd, 2009 10:40 AM

The lack of steel type here disappoints me.. Salamence will be having a field day with your team.. Ice Shard Donphan isn't strong enough to OHKO. Infernape is also a problem since nothing here is safe to switch.

Super Puppy January 22nd, 2009 7:31 PM

I'm going to run Ice Fang on Gyarados to take care of Mence and other Dragons.

I also want to replace Donphan I think, but I dunno what to use.

EDIT: Heatran?

Heatran @ Lefties
Modest
EVs: 196 HP / 104 SAtk / 208 SDef
Will-o-Wisp
Stealth Rock
Earth Power
Lava Plume/ Fire Blast

Syaoran January 22nd, 2009 8:35 PM

Scarf Heatran with SR is a good idea, but I'm not that keen about using SR on choiced pokes. Then again, SR is too good to give up on.

Noir Lancer January 23rd, 2009 3:06 AM

You are Weavile, Infernape, Mamoswine and Scizor weak, you should have used Gyarados over Ninjask/ Togekiss if you so desperately wanted a flying type on board, it also makes a fairly good lead since you lack that as well. Dark+Azelf's spread, though standard, is far better. Use it instead.



- Shadow Sneak > Night Slash on Gallade to kill off weakened Ghosts and Psychics, Night Slash really isnt needed when Lax takes care of all them very well. Ice Punch < Psycho Cut, Psychic gets terrible coverage, Close Combat is enough in terms of STAB. With Ice Punch Gliscor no longer walls you and hits Salamence switch-ins far harder.

As for Gallade's item, it can use Life Orb well to some extent, seeing as it does get minimal Life Orb recoil with the 56 HP EVs. Choice Band is also pretty good since it can 2HKO Skarmory and negate Intimidate switch-ins Attack drops.Expert Belt is an option if you don't like the LO recoil or being locked into 1 move.

- 236 HP/ 216 Def/ 56 Spe on Tangrowth

I honestly dislike small Attack EV investments that are put "just because", they serve no real purpose and are usually a waste of EVs. The spread I suggested above reaches optimal Leftovers recovery, reaches a jump point in defense, and outspeeds Relaxed natured Swampert, Blissey and Machamp, and enough to outspeed the latter two if they decide to play the speed game. All without wasting a single EV in the process.

- 204 HP/ 56 Def/ 252 SpD on Snorlax

It is a well known fact that pokes with impressive base HP should be maxing out their defenses before their HP to reduce the damage they take. The HP investment reaches optimal Leftovers recovery if you are wondering, the Def EVs are extra.

Archer January 23rd, 2009 6:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noir Lancer (Post 4304311)
- 204 HP/ 56 Def/ 252 SpD on Snorlax

It is a well known fact that pokes with impressive base HP should be maxing out their defenses before their HP to reduce the damage they take. The HP investment reaches optimal Leftovers recovery if you are wondering, the Def EVs are extra.

Uh, I don't really like this Idea. Snorlax should not be taking Physical hits, so there's little point in running Def, when you are reducing it's viability as a Special Wall. Considering Snorlax can ResTalk, an optimal Leftovers Stat is not necessary for longevity. In most cases, unless the Optimal HP Stat is around the 252-232 mark, you don't really gain anything, as you begin to lose bulk. Just run 252 HP/4 Def/252 SDef, unless there's a specific hit it's meant to take.

Super Puppy January 23rd, 2009 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syaoran
Scarf Heatran with SR is a good idea, but I'm not that keen about using SR on choiced pokes. Then again, SR is too good to give up on.

I don't think I'm running a Scarf, but thanks anyway. I do want SR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noir Lancer (Post 4304311)
You are Weavile, Infernape, Mamoswine and Scizor weak, you should have used Gyarados over Ninjask/ Togekiss if you so desperately wanted a flying type on board, it also makes a fairly good lead since you lack that as well. Dark+Azelf's spread, though standard, is far better. Use it instead.

I'm running Gyarados now; I didn't think of it when building. I wasn't desperate for a Flying-type, those three all just came up. And I guess I can use DA's EV spread, but I figured there's a reason everyone hates Bulkydos.

Quote:

- Shadow Sneak > Night Slash on Gallade to kill off weakened Ghosts and Psychics, Night Slash really isnt needed when Lax takes care of all them very well. Ice Punch < Psycho Cut, Psychic gets terrible coverage, Close Combat is enough in terms of STAB. With Ice Punch Gliscor no longer walls you and hits Salamence switch-ins far harder.
I CAN'T GET ICE PUNCH! How many times do I have to say it? But I can invest in Shadow Sneak; that sounds like a good idea.

Quote:

As for Gallade's item, it can use Life Orb well to some extent, seeing as it does get minimal Life Orb recoil with the 56 HP EVs. Choice Band is also pretty good since it can 2HKO Skarmory and negate Intimidate switch-ins Attack drops.Expert Belt is an option if you don't like the LO recoil or being locked into 1 move.
I think I might go Expert Belt. I'm already running LO on Gengar and I don't need two dying sweepers. Plus I don't like the Choice items in general; I tend to have problems using them. But thanks for the tip.

Quote:

- 236 HP/ 216 Def/ 56 Spe on Tangrowth
... I nixed Tangrowth a while ago. But thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer
Just run 252 HP/4 Def/252 SDef, unless there's a specific hit it's meant to take.

That could work. I put a little in to Atk so he could pack a punch, but I guess he doesn't really need it. Most Lax sets I see have some invested in Def though, so it might not be a bad idea to try that.

Noir Lancer January 23rd, 2009 11:38 PM

You really should edit your original post, to show what changes you have made to the team and to see it's current status... =/

Super Puppy January 23rd, 2009 11:41 PM

That's probably a good idea, huh. Okay, I'll get right on that.

EDIT: Done. That should clear up some confusion.

Syaoran January 24th, 2009 4:08 AM

I mentioned Scarf because I personally believe it's the only viable Heatran in the current metagame, otherwise it gets outsped by too many things. SubSalac Heatran is another option but it doesn't have room for SR in its moves. If you test your team and see that this Heatran isn't working, try Scarf with SR/Fire Blast/Earth Power/HP Ice or Explosion.

As for Gallade, he seems quite inferior to Lucario with the SD set. You could try SD/CC/Extremespeed/Bullet Punch. Ghosts won't enjoy Bullet Punch.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 10:29 AM

Okay, I guess I can try ScarfTran, ahtough Spe wasn't my top priority on the set. It's worth a test run at least. Thanks. I'll edit that into the first post.

I don't think I want to switch to Lucario though. I'd rather use Gallade because I like his stats and he makes a good Bulky sweeper, which is what I was going for. I also liked his status capabilities, but I guess that's gone now anyway...

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4307619)
Okay, I guess I can try ScarfTran, ahtough Spe wasn't my top priority on the set. It's worth a test run at least. Thanks. I'll edit that into the first post.

I don't think I want to switch to Lucario though. I'd rather use Gallade because I like his stats and he makes a good Bulky sweeper, which is what I was going for. I also liked his status capabilities, but I guess that's gone now anyway...

Id probabaly just use Lucario for the resistances. Mainly for coming in on CB Tar on 4x resist on crunches and stone edges, since nothing on this team can currently. Gallade probably gets 2hko'd by CB Stone Edge


EDIT : Gallade takes like 80% from CB Stone Edge lol



Speaking of which, DD Tar is pretty nasty to you.

You might want to scarf Celebi so you can revenge kill it, and other threats.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 1:51 PM

Hm, scarfing Celebi sounds like it could work. I dunno, I've never scarfed a wall before, haha!

I dunno, I'm hesitant about replacing Gallade. I really, really want to keep him, so I'm trying to find another way.

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 2:03 PM

[email protected] Scarf
252 SP.ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 HP
Timid Naure
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice/Fire]
- Psychic
- Leaf Storm

Not with a wall set obv lol

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 2:09 PM

Hmm, I could do that, but I already have Gengar and Heatran for sweeping. I was planning on using Celebi as a wall. I guess I could get a new wall...

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4308237)
Hmm, I could do that, but I already have Gengar and Heatran for sweeping. I was planning on using Celebi as a wall. I guess I could get a new wall...

You dont need walls on every team to win.


With Celebi holding a scarf you can revenge kill things which quite frankly is much more effective than trying to wall something in such an offensive metagame as platinum/dp.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 2:16 PM

Well, I suppose that makes sense. However in that case, I don't necessarily have to use Celebi. Maybe I could try something with higher Spe and SAtk, or that better covers my weaknesses.

EDIT: I understand I don't really need walls, but I do need something that can take a hit. If I ditch walling Celebi, the only thing that can take any kind of physical hit is Gyarados. Maybe I should at least get another tank, since the metagame is so physical now.

. January 24th, 2009 2:26 PM

That Heatran is awful, seriously. Scarfed users can utilize SR effectively, but using both SR and WoW on a Scarfer is a bad idea. If you really want to get SR and Will O Wisp off, change that Heatran to this:

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Explosion / Will O Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

This set was made by Brawley (I believe) on Smogon. Basically, set up SR, live unboosted Earthquakes, and then you can either use Explosion to kill Blissey (almost like Baitran), or Will O Wisp to cripple Tyranitars and Swampert that are very common switch ins. Lava Plume is an option over Fire Blast, thus clearing up space for Explosion, but WoW is more reliable, and not burning TTar on the switch in isn't the most ideal situation to be in. This Heatran also can lead, thus you don't have to use the outdated Gallade lead. You could make it bulkier, to live some STAB Earthquakes, but the Speed is useful in most cases.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 2:29 PM

Everyone is turning my defenders into sweepers. -.-

I can run that on Heatran, I suppose. I didn't like the scarf idea much, anyway.

. January 24th, 2009 2:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4308301)
Everyone is turning my defenders into sweepers. -.-

I can run that on Heatran, I suppose. I didn't like the scarf idea much, anyway.

Like I said, you could make it a lot bulkier, but sacrificing Speed is pretty hard to do. A wise bulky spread to use is 248 HP / 56 SpA / 204 SpD. This is the ResTalk Heatran's EV spread, and while it won't be walling as effectively, it can cause havoc and take more damage than one would think. Or, you could just use an entirely different Heatran:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP/16 SpA/240 SpD
Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Will O Wisp
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast / Overheat
- Roar / Earth Power

Basically, it's Burn Support. Not as effective as a lead, but still has its merits.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 2:36 PM

Hm, I rather like that set. I could do that one. Though, I suppose I don't have to use Heatran either.

Well either way, for now, it's better than what I had. I'll edit it into my first post. Thanks!

EDIT: I wonder if I could use Magnezone as a bulky special attacker? He might work better then Celebi...

Syaoran January 24th, 2009 2:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4308287)
That Heatran is awful, seriously. Scarfed users can utilize SR effectively, but using both SR and WoW on a Scarfer is a bad idea. If you really want to get SR and Will O Wisp off, change that Heatran to this:

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Explosion / Will O Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

This set was made by Brawley (I believe) on Smogon. Basically, set up SR, live unboosted Earthquakes, and then you can either use Explosion to kill Blissey (almost like Baitran), or Will O Wisp to cripple Tyranitars and Swampert that are very common switch ins. Lava Plume is an option over Fire Blast, thus clearing up space for Explosion, but WoW is more reliable, and not burning TTar on the switch in isn't the most ideal situation to be in. This Heatran also can lead, thus you don't have to use the outdated Gallade lead. You could make it bulkier, to live some STAB Earthquakes, but the Speed is useful in most cases.

Don't listen to him, this set sucks. Just because Brawly made it doesn't make it good.

I would agree that Scarf Heatran with WoW is pretty lame. SR/Fire Blast/Earth Power/Explosion or HP Ice like I've told you is good enough.

If you wish to use Gallade, then use his status moves. Otherwise he's just an inferior Lucario. Also, Expert Belt looks like a waste. You rather be using Lum Berry in case he gets burned or paralysed.

Scarf Celebi isn't so great, especially when Scizor can come in so easily and Pursuit you. If you want a durable Celebi, try Reflect.

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 2:59 PM

Well the whole reason i suggested Scarf Celebi was to revenge DD Tar since some of them still use it and then using Lucario >> Gallade for CB Tar since this team dies to both. Sure there are better revenge killers however celebi was the easiest thing to change without messing with the team too much.

However there is one thing that needs to be established, you need a way to deal with Tyranitar.

You could also scarf that gallade and use that as a revenge killer, but yeah as said you need either a counter or check/ revenge killer to it.


Use Leftovers >> Enigma Berry on Gyarados. Bulky dos is meant to take hits and with enigma berry its leftovers recovers is stolen which makes it much harder to take hits.

. January 24th, 2009 3:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syaoran (Post 4308365)
Don't listen to him, this set sucks. Just because Brawly made it doesn't make it good.

I would agree that Scarf Heatran with WoW is pretty lame. SR/Fire Blast/Earth Power/Explosion or HP Ice like I've told you is good enough.

If you wish to use Gallade, then use his status moves. Otherwise he's just an inferior Lucario. Also, Expert Belt looks like a waste. You rather be using Lum Berry in case he gets burned or paralysed.

Scarf Celebi isn't so great, especially when Scizor can come in so easily and Pursuit you. If you want a durable Celebi, try Reflect.

How does it suck? It may not be the best lead, but if he wishes for Stealth Rock and Will O Wisp, as well as a lead, Heatran fills the spot nicely. Saying "it sucks" doesn't make your argument valid.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 3:19 PM

I'm not going to Scarf my Celebi. I'll make him less wall-like and pump some more into SAtk, but I think he can pretty much own T-tar with a STAB Grass Knot.

I'll switch Gyarados' item. I just figured the berry would help him with that awful 4x Electric weakness.

I'm going to put T-wave on Gallade to cripple faster enemies or force switches since his speed isn't so great.

I like the Heatran set I edited my post with, so I think I'll stick with that one for now.

Syaoran January 24th, 2009 3:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4308437)
How does it suck? It may not be the best lead, but if he wishes for Stealth Rock and Will O Wisp, as well as a lead, Heatran fills the spot nicely. Saying "it sucks" doesn't make your argument valid.

I was hoping you could see it for yourself as to why it sucks. "barring STAB'd EQ" is just dumb dumb dumb, because almost every user of EQ has STAB on it. It's so much better to outspeed these threats with scarf, rather getting OHKO'd or at least almost OHKO that even a BP Scizor can finish you off. When presenting something like this set, it is necessary to post damage calcs to prove how "useful" it is. Furthermore, EQ is not the only move Heatran has to fear: Close Combat is also very common, which makes scarf even more valuable.

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 3:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4308466)
I'm not going to Scarf my Celebi. I'll make him less wall-like and pump some more into SAtk, but I think he can pretty much own T-tar with a STAB Grass Knot.

I'll switch Gyarados' item. I just figured the berry would help him with that awful 4x Electric weakness.

I'm going to put T-wave on Gallade to cripple faster enemies or force switches since his speed isn't so great.

I like the Heatran set I edited my post with, so I think I'll stick with that one for now.

You are missing the point, nothing on your team can switch into CB Tyranitar, hence the Lucario >> Gallade thing to come in its STAB moves.

Scarf Celebi is for DD tar who outpaces Lucario after a Dragon Dance and to act as your revenge killer to other threats namely things who cant counter currently and serves as an insurance policy. However a better scarfer, as said, may be in order.

Also Grass Knot doesnt do that much to tar due to its good base sp.def and the sandstorm boost.

. January 24th, 2009 3:36 PM

Quote:

I was hoping you could see it for yourself as to why it sucks. "barring STAB'd EQ" is just dumb dumb dumb, because almost every user of EQ has STAB on it.
False statement.

Quote:

It's so much better to outspeed these threats with scarf, rather getting OHKO'd or at least almost OHKO that even a BP Scizor can finish you off.
Uh, if you burn something such as a Tyranitar or Salamence as they switch in, you won't be "left with enough HP that a BP Scizor can finish you off". Lead Tran's focus is to get SR up and then just launch Will O Wisps off at things like Salamence, Tyranitar, etc...common switch ins. Crippling them makes it easier for the team to handle overall, for sure.

Quote:

When presenting something like this set, it is necessary to post damage calcs to prove how "useful" it is. Furthermore, EQ is not the only move Heatran has to fear: Close Combat is also very common, which makes scarf even more valuable.
I'm not saying Heatran is going to sponge hits here and there. But the point of a lead Heatran is to get Stealth Rock off. WoW helps with common switch ins such as Tyranitar and Salamence, as once they're burned they struggle to do much if they rely on physical offense. Close Combat is an obvious SWITCH.

I dunno what you're trying to say. Scarftran and Lead Tran are two different Pokemon.

Syaoran January 24th, 2009 4:01 PM

You slashed WoW with Explosion so it obviously didn't look so important in that set.

Quote:

False statement.
You're saying I don't provide explanations then you post something like that? How bad at trolling can you get, jeez <__<;

WoW is terribly unreliable with its 75% accuracy on a pokemon with below mediocre speed that gets OHKO'd so easily. Setting SR and shooting out WoW seems like a difficult job for Heatran.

You know what, I'll do the calcs for you!
405 Atk Salamence @ LO vs Timid Heatran EQ - 94.74%~111.46%
You have a 1/3 chance to survive! OOH! and maybe you'll hit it with 75% WoW! niiice!

Your entire argument to why this set is "viable" relies on switching. Of course if my opponent was switching the entire battle I'd eventually win. This is just dumb.

. January 24th, 2009 4:15 PM

Quote:

You slashed WoW with Explosion so it obviously didn't look so important in that set.
Umm...You're right. A slash basically means "disregard this move entirely!"


Quote:

You're saying I don't provide explanations then you post something like that? How bad at trolling can you get, jeez <__<;
?

Quote:

WoW is terribly unreliable with its 75% accuracy on a pokemon with below mediocre speed that gets OHKO'd so easily. Setting SR and shooting out WoW seems like a difficult job for Heatran.
Prediction ?

Quote:

You know what, I'll do the calcs for you!
405 Atk Salamence @ LO vs Timid Heatran EQ - 94.74%~111.46%
You have a 1/3 chance to survive! OOH! and maybe you'll hit it with 75% WoW! niiice!
Will O Wisp it on the switch. It's not supposed to be staying in to burn it. That's a waste of a Pokemon. Actually read what I post

Quote:

WoW helps with common switch ins such as Tyranitar and Salamence
Quote:

Uh, if you burn something such as a Tyranitar or Salamence as they switch in,
Quote:

Will O Wisp to cripple Tyranitars and Swampert that are very common switch ins.
Quote:

but WoW is more reliable, and not burning TTar on the switch in isn't the most ideal situation to be in.
Quote:

Your entire argument to why this set is "viable" relies on switching. Of course if my opponent was switching the entire battle I'd eventually win. This is just dumb.
What are you trying to say? That Tyranitar doesn't switch in on Heatran? If so, that's false. I wouldn't advise it, but Heatran can stay in on DDTar, burn it while it DDs (it will likely have the illusion of a Scarftran due to lack of Leftovers). This is not reccomended of course, so if you're going to quote me on this, I won't even bother responding.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 6:04 PM

I am going to use a Lucario, but I'm not going to replace Gallade. I'm gonna do a mixed sweeper set.

Lucario @ Choice Scarf (???)
Lonely/ Naughty/ Mild/ Rash
EVs: I dunno yet, depends on the nature
~Extremespeed
~Aura Sphere
~Stone Edge
~Dark Pulse

It's tentative, but still. I think my team will now run something like:

Gyarados
Lucario
Gallade
Gengar
Snorlax
Celebi (??? - maybe replace?)

I want to get a second opinion on this before I edit my first post again. I know I'm replacing Heatran which may upset the heated debate up there, but like I said, this is just a thought. It might not happen.

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 6:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4308810)
I am going to use a Lucario, but I'm not going to replace Gallade. I'm gonna do a mixed sweeper set.

Lucario @ Choice Scarf (???)
Lonely/ Naughty/ Mild/ Rash
EVs: I dunno yet, depends on the nature
~Extremespeed
~Aura Sphere
~Stone Edge
~Dark Pulse

It's tentative, but still. I think my team will now run something like:

Gyarados
Lucario
Gallade
Gengar
Snorlax
Celebi (??? - maybe replace?)

I want to get a second opinion on this before I edit my first post again. I know I'm replacing Heatran which may upset the heated debate up there, but like I said, this is just a thought. It might not happen.

No need for ES since you have a scarf

If you are gonna run mix scarf luke, use

[email protected] Scarf
40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Speed
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Dark Pulse
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power Ice



Since you replaced heatran, you can shove Stealth Rock on Celebi >> earth power.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 7:04 PM

Okay, I'll do that. Thanks.

The only problem is that I don't know if I can get HP Ice for Lucario. Is there anything else I could use?

EDIT: I edited these changes into the first post.

Syaoran January 25th, 2009 8:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4308604)
Umm...You're right. A slash basically means "disregard this move entirely!"




?



Prediction ?



Will O Wisp it on the switch. It's not supposed to be staying in to burn it. That's a waste of a Pokemon. Actually read what I post











What are you trying to say? That Tyranitar doesn't switch in on Heatran? If so, that's false. I wouldn't advise it, but Heatran can stay in on DDTar, burn it while it DDs (it will likely have the illusion of a Scarftran due to lack of Leftovers). This is not reccomended of course, so if you're going to quote me on this, I won't even bother responding.

Your entire argument for a good "lead" is based on it having WoW. When you slash it with Explosion, then yeah, you give it less importance. -____-

Your entire argument for a good "lead" is based on it setting up SR and burning incoming switch ins. You can't do both. You can only use 1 move in 1 turn. So when you set up SR, they switch in to Salamence/TTar, and you're pretty much forced to switch again. If you use WoW the first turn, it means you have to stay for another turn if you wanna set up SR as quickly as possible. Again, you run the risk of 1/4 not hitting with WoW and giving them a free switch in. This is why sub is so much better, because it lets you choose your moves accordingly while scouting for "counters".

-----

As for Scarf Lucario, why not just run an entirely physical one? CC/Crunch/Stone Edge/Ice Punch is just as good, while giving CC more power.

Super Puppy January 25th, 2009 8:21 PM

I'm not running an all-physical Lucario because I already have enough physical attackers, and I find that a mixed set is more versatile.

Super Puppy January 25th, 2009 9:34 PM

I know it seems like I'm going in circles, but I may actually bring Tangrowth back over Celebi, but this time as a special attacking tank/ wall.

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Bold/ Modest
EVs: 228 HP/ 200 Def/ 62 SAtk/ 28 Spe
~Sleep Powder
~Grass Knot
~Leech Seed
~Ancientpower/ Stun Spore

Tangrowth may be better for the job then Celebi, I think. He does have higher base stats for Defence and Special Attack, and is equal in HP. Plus Tangrowth has the ability to status, which is always fun.

Syaoran January 26th, 2009 3:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4311191)
I'm not running an all-physical Lucario because I already have enough physical attackers, and I find that a mixed set is more versatile.

That's a very dumb reason.. I would understand if Lucario had STAB on Dark Pulse or HP Ice, but he doesn't. These will hit just as hard as 252 ATK Crunch/Ice Punch, while giving more power to his STAB move, Close Combat.

Tangrowth may have better stats, but it lacks recover which is very important when you're trying to wall stuff. Recover/Reflect/Grass Knot/HP fire is quite good at handling common threats.

Super Puppy January 26th, 2009 6:46 AM

I'm thinking of changing Lucario's moveset. I'd like to include Aura Sphere as well. I can't get HP Ice, so I'll need another move anyway. Perhaps even Flash Cannon? It's a longshot though.

Well, Tangrowth does have Leech Seed for HP gain. That plus lefties might add up. Though I know a recovery move is important.

The Hero Without a Name January 26th, 2009 7:00 AM

Why Flash Cannon? Everything you hit SE with it (Rocks, Ice types) are already hit super effective by Close Combat/Aura Sphere.

Super Puppy January 26th, 2009 3:42 PM

I dunno. Flash Cannon was a random thought. I do need something better, but I'm still working on the set.

EDIT: I know I keep coming up with random ideas, but what about Honchcrow?

Honchcrow @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 200 SAtk/ 212 Atk/ 96 Spe
Mild
~Dark Pulse
~Dill Peck
~Superpower
~Heat Wave

Heat Wave decimates Steels, Superpower takes Blissey and Heatran, others for STAB and basic coverage.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:12 AM.


Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2018 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2016 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.

Acknowledgements
Use of PokéCommunity Assets
vB Optimise by DragonByte Technologies Ltd © 2023.