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-   -   A very new team that possibly fails [OU RMT] (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=166670)

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4307619)
Okay, I guess I can try ScarfTran, ahtough Spe wasn't my top priority on the set. It's worth a test run at least. Thanks. I'll edit that into the first post.

I don't think I want to switch to Lucario though. I'd rather use Gallade because I like his stats and he makes a good Bulky sweeper, which is what I was going for. I also liked his status capabilities, but I guess that's gone now anyway...

Id probabaly just use Lucario for the resistances. Mainly for coming in on CB Tar on 4x resist on crunches and stone edges, since nothing on this team can currently. Gallade probably gets 2hko'd by CB Stone Edge


EDIT : Gallade takes like 80% from CB Stone Edge lol



Speaking of which, DD Tar is pretty nasty to you.

You might want to scarf Celebi so you can revenge kill it, and other threats.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 1:51 PM

Hm, scarfing Celebi sounds like it could work. I dunno, I've never scarfed a wall before, haha!

I dunno, I'm hesitant about replacing Gallade. I really, really want to keep him, so I'm trying to find another way.

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 2:03 PM

[email protected] Scarf
252 SP.ATT / 252 SPEED / 6 HP
Timid Naure
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice/Fire]
- Psychic
- Leaf Storm

Not with a wall set obv lol

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 2:09 PM

Hmm, I could do that, but I already have Gengar and Heatran for sweeping. I was planning on using Celebi as a wall. I guess I could get a new wall...

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4308237)
Hmm, I could do that, but I already have Gengar and Heatran for sweeping. I was planning on using Celebi as a wall. I guess I could get a new wall...

You dont need walls on every team to win.


With Celebi holding a scarf you can revenge kill things which quite frankly is much more effective than trying to wall something in such an offensive metagame as platinum/dp.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 2:16 PM

Well, I suppose that makes sense. However in that case, I don't necessarily have to use Celebi. Maybe I could try something with higher Spe and SAtk, or that better covers my weaknesses.

EDIT: I understand I don't really need walls, but I do need something that can take a hit. If I ditch walling Celebi, the only thing that can take any kind of physical hit is Gyarados. Maybe I should at least get another tank, since the metagame is so physical now.

. January 24th, 2009 2:26 PM

That Heatran is awful, seriously. Scarfed users can utilize SR effectively, but using both SR and WoW on a Scarfer is a bad idea. If you really want to get SR and Will O Wisp off, change that Heatran to this:

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Explosion / Will O Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

This set was made by Brawley (I believe) on Smogon. Basically, set up SR, live unboosted Earthquakes, and then you can either use Explosion to kill Blissey (almost like Baitran), or Will O Wisp to cripple Tyranitars and Swampert that are very common switch ins. Lava Plume is an option over Fire Blast, thus clearing up space for Explosion, but WoW is more reliable, and not burning TTar on the switch in isn't the most ideal situation to be in. This Heatran also can lead, thus you don't have to use the outdated Gallade lead. You could make it bulkier, to live some STAB Earthquakes, but the Speed is useful in most cases.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 2:29 PM

Everyone is turning my defenders into sweepers. -.-

I can run that on Heatran, I suppose. I didn't like the scarf idea much, anyway.

. January 24th, 2009 2:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4308301)
Everyone is turning my defenders into sweepers. -.-

I can run that on Heatran, I suppose. I didn't like the scarf idea much, anyway.

Like I said, you could make it a lot bulkier, but sacrificing Speed is pretty hard to do. A wise bulky spread to use is 248 HP / 56 SpA / 204 SpD. This is the ResTalk Heatran's EV spread, and while it won't be walling as effectively, it can cause havoc and take more damage than one would think. Or, you could just use an entirely different Heatran:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP/16 SpA/240 SpD
Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Will O Wisp
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast / Overheat
- Roar / Earth Power

Basically, it's Burn Support. Not as effective as a lead, but still has its merits.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 2:36 PM

Hm, I rather like that set. I could do that one. Though, I suppose I don't have to use Heatran either.

Well either way, for now, it's better than what I had. I'll edit it into my first post. Thanks!

EDIT: I wonder if I could use Magnezone as a bulky special attacker? He might work better then Celebi...

Syaoran January 24th, 2009 2:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4308287)
That Heatran is awful, seriously. Scarfed users can utilize SR effectively, but using both SR and WoW on a Scarfer is a bad idea. If you really want to get SR and Will O Wisp off, change that Heatran to this:

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Explosion / Will O Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

This set was made by Brawley (I believe) on Smogon. Basically, set up SR, live unboosted Earthquakes, and then you can either use Explosion to kill Blissey (almost like Baitran), or Will O Wisp to cripple Tyranitars and Swampert that are very common switch ins. Lava Plume is an option over Fire Blast, thus clearing up space for Explosion, but WoW is more reliable, and not burning TTar on the switch in isn't the most ideal situation to be in. This Heatran also can lead, thus you don't have to use the outdated Gallade lead. You could make it bulkier, to live some STAB Earthquakes, but the Speed is useful in most cases.

Don't listen to him, this set sucks. Just because Brawly made it doesn't make it good.

I would agree that Scarf Heatran with WoW is pretty lame. SR/Fire Blast/Earth Power/Explosion or HP Ice like I've told you is good enough.

If you wish to use Gallade, then use his status moves. Otherwise he's just an inferior Lucario. Also, Expert Belt looks like a waste. You rather be using Lum Berry in case he gets burned or paralysed.

Scarf Celebi isn't so great, especially when Scizor can come in so easily and Pursuit you. If you want a durable Celebi, try Reflect.

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 2:59 PM

Well the whole reason i suggested Scarf Celebi was to revenge DD Tar since some of them still use it and then using Lucario >> Gallade for CB Tar since this team dies to both. Sure there are better revenge killers however celebi was the easiest thing to change without messing with the team too much.

However there is one thing that needs to be established, you need a way to deal with Tyranitar.

You could also scarf that gallade and use that as a revenge killer, but yeah as said you need either a counter or check/ revenge killer to it.


Use Leftovers >> Enigma Berry on Gyarados. Bulky dos is meant to take hits and with enigma berry its leftovers recovers is stolen which makes it much harder to take hits.

. January 24th, 2009 3:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syaoran (Post 4308365)
Don't listen to him, this set sucks. Just because Brawly made it doesn't make it good.

I would agree that Scarf Heatran with WoW is pretty lame. SR/Fire Blast/Earth Power/Explosion or HP Ice like I've told you is good enough.

If you wish to use Gallade, then use his status moves. Otherwise he's just an inferior Lucario. Also, Expert Belt looks like a waste. You rather be using Lum Berry in case he gets burned or paralysed.

Scarf Celebi isn't so great, especially when Scizor can come in so easily and Pursuit you. If you want a durable Celebi, try Reflect.

How does it suck? It may not be the best lead, but if he wishes for Stealth Rock and Will O Wisp, as well as a lead, Heatran fills the spot nicely. Saying "it sucks" doesn't make your argument valid.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 3:19 PM

I'm not going to Scarf my Celebi. I'll make him less wall-like and pump some more into SAtk, but I think he can pretty much own T-tar with a STAB Grass Knot.

I'll switch Gyarados' item. I just figured the berry would help him with that awful 4x Electric weakness.

I'm going to put T-wave on Gallade to cripple faster enemies or force switches since his speed isn't so great.

I like the Heatran set I edited my post with, so I think I'll stick with that one for now.

Syaoran January 24th, 2009 3:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4308437)
How does it suck? It may not be the best lead, but if he wishes for Stealth Rock and Will O Wisp, as well as a lead, Heatran fills the spot nicely. Saying "it sucks" doesn't make your argument valid.

I was hoping you could see it for yourself as to why it sucks. "barring STAB'd EQ" is just dumb dumb dumb, because almost every user of EQ has STAB on it. It's so much better to outspeed these threats with scarf, rather getting OHKO'd or at least almost OHKO that even a BP Scizor can finish you off. When presenting something like this set, it is necessary to post damage calcs to prove how "useful" it is. Furthermore, EQ is not the only move Heatran has to fear: Close Combat is also very common, which makes scarf even more valuable.

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 3:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4308466)
I'm not going to Scarf my Celebi. I'll make him less wall-like and pump some more into SAtk, but I think he can pretty much own T-tar with a STAB Grass Knot.

I'll switch Gyarados' item. I just figured the berry would help him with that awful 4x Electric weakness.

I'm going to put T-wave on Gallade to cripple faster enemies or force switches since his speed isn't so great.

I like the Heatran set I edited my post with, so I think I'll stick with that one for now.

You are missing the point, nothing on your team can switch into CB Tyranitar, hence the Lucario >> Gallade thing to come in its STAB moves.

Scarf Celebi is for DD tar who outpaces Lucario after a Dragon Dance and to act as your revenge killer to other threats namely things who cant counter currently and serves as an insurance policy. However a better scarfer, as said, may be in order.

Also Grass Knot doesnt do that much to tar due to its good base sp.def and the sandstorm boost.

. January 24th, 2009 3:36 PM

Quote:

I was hoping you could see it for yourself as to why it sucks. "barring STAB'd EQ" is just dumb dumb dumb, because almost every user of EQ has STAB on it.
False statement.

Quote:

It's so much better to outspeed these threats with scarf, rather getting OHKO'd or at least almost OHKO that even a BP Scizor can finish you off.
Uh, if you burn something such as a Tyranitar or Salamence as they switch in, you won't be "left with enough HP that a BP Scizor can finish you off". Lead Tran's focus is to get SR up and then just launch Will O Wisps off at things like Salamence, Tyranitar, etc...common switch ins. Crippling them makes it easier for the team to handle overall, for sure.

Quote:

When presenting something like this set, it is necessary to post damage calcs to prove how "useful" it is. Furthermore, EQ is not the only move Heatran has to fear: Close Combat is also very common, which makes scarf even more valuable.
I'm not saying Heatran is going to sponge hits here and there. But the point of a lead Heatran is to get Stealth Rock off. WoW helps with common switch ins such as Tyranitar and Salamence, as once they're burned they struggle to do much if they rely on physical offense. Close Combat is an obvious SWITCH.

I dunno what you're trying to say. Scarftran and Lead Tran are two different Pokemon.

Syaoran January 24th, 2009 4:01 PM

You slashed WoW with Explosion so it obviously didn't look so important in that set.

Quote:

False statement.
You're saying I don't provide explanations then you post something like that? How bad at trolling can you get, jeez <__<;

WoW is terribly unreliable with its 75% accuracy on a pokemon with below mediocre speed that gets OHKO'd so easily. Setting SR and shooting out WoW seems like a difficult job for Heatran.

You know what, I'll do the calcs for you!
405 Atk Salamence @ LO vs Timid Heatran EQ - 94.74%~111.46%
You have a 1/3 chance to survive! OOH! and maybe you'll hit it with 75% WoW! niiice!

Your entire argument to why this set is "viable" relies on switching. Of course if my opponent was switching the entire battle I'd eventually win. This is just dumb.

. January 24th, 2009 4:15 PM

Quote:

You slashed WoW with Explosion so it obviously didn't look so important in that set.
Umm...You're right. A slash basically means "disregard this move entirely!"


Quote:

You're saying I don't provide explanations then you post something like that? How bad at trolling can you get, jeez <__<;
?

Quote:

WoW is terribly unreliable with its 75% accuracy on a pokemon with below mediocre speed that gets OHKO'd so easily. Setting SR and shooting out WoW seems like a difficult job for Heatran.
Prediction ?

Quote:

You know what, I'll do the calcs for you!
405 Atk Salamence @ LO vs Timid Heatran EQ - 94.74%~111.46%
You have a 1/3 chance to survive! OOH! and maybe you'll hit it with 75% WoW! niiice!
Will O Wisp it on the switch. It's not supposed to be staying in to burn it. That's a waste of a Pokemon. Actually read what I post

Quote:

WoW helps with common switch ins such as Tyranitar and Salamence
Quote:

Uh, if you burn something such as a Tyranitar or Salamence as they switch in,
Quote:

Will O Wisp to cripple Tyranitars and Swampert that are very common switch ins.
Quote:

but WoW is more reliable, and not burning TTar on the switch in isn't the most ideal situation to be in.
Quote:

Your entire argument to why this set is "viable" relies on switching. Of course if my opponent was switching the entire battle I'd eventually win. This is just dumb.
What are you trying to say? That Tyranitar doesn't switch in on Heatran? If so, that's false. I wouldn't advise it, but Heatran can stay in on DDTar, burn it while it DDs (it will likely have the illusion of a Scarftran due to lack of Leftovers). This is not reccomended of course, so if you're going to quote me on this, I won't even bother responding.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 6:04 PM

I am going to use a Lucario, but I'm not going to replace Gallade. I'm gonna do a mixed sweeper set.

Lucario @ Choice Scarf (???)
Lonely/ Naughty/ Mild/ Rash
EVs: I dunno yet, depends on the nature
~Extremespeed
~Aura Sphere
~Stone Edge
~Dark Pulse

It's tentative, but still. I think my team will now run something like:

Gyarados
Lucario
Gallade
Gengar
Snorlax
Celebi (??? - maybe replace?)

I want to get a second opinion on this before I edit my first post again. I know I'm replacing Heatran which may upset the heated debate up there, but like I said, this is just a thought. It might not happen.

Dark Azelf January 24th, 2009 6:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Puppy (Post 4308810)
I am going to use a Lucario, but I'm not going to replace Gallade. I'm gonna do a mixed sweeper set.

Lucario @ Choice Scarf (???)
Lonely/ Naughty/ Mild/ Rash
EVs: I dunno yet, depends on the nature
~Extremespeed
~Aura Sphere
~Stone Edge
~Dark Pulse

It's tentative, but still. I think my team will now run something like:

Gyarados
Lucario
Gallade
Gengar
Snorlax
Celebi (??? - maybe replace?)

I want to get a second opinion on this before I edit my first post again. I know I'm replacing Heatran which may upset the heated debate up there, but like I said, this is just a thought. It might not happen.

No need for ES since you have a scarf

If you are gonna run mix scarf luke, use

[email protected] Scarf
40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Speed
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Dark Pulse
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power Ice



Since you replaced heatran, you can shove Stealth Rock on Celebi >> earth power.

Super Puppy January 24th, 2009 7:04 PM

Okay, I'll do that. Thanks.

The only problem is that I don't know if I can get HP Ice for Lucario. Is there anything else I could use?

EDIT: I edited these changes into the first post.

Syaoran January 25th, 2009 8:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4308604)
Umm...You're right. A slash basically means "disregard this move entirely!"




?



Prediction ?



Will O Wisp it on the switch. It's not supposed to be staying in to burn it. That's a waste of a Pokemon. Actually read what I post











What are you trying to say? That Tyranitar doesn't switch in on Heatran? If so, that's false. I wouldn't advise it, but Heatran can stay in on DDTar, burn it while it DDs (it will likely have the illusion of a Scarftran due to lack of Leftovers). This is not reccomended of course, so if you're going to quote me on this, I won't even bother responding.

Your entire argument for a good "lead" is based on it having WoW. When you slash it with Explosion, then yeah, you give it less importance. -____-

Your entire argument for a good "lead" is based on it setting up SR and burning incoming switch ins. You can't do both. You can only use 1 move in 1 turn. So when you set up SR, they switch in to Salamence/TTar, and you're pretty much forced to switch again. If you use WoW the first turn, it means you have to stay for another turn if you wanna set up SR as quickly as possible. Again, you run the risk of 1/4 not hitting with WoW and giving them a free switch in. This is why sub is so much better, because it lets you choose your moves accordingly while scouting for "counters".

-----

As for Scarf Lucario, why not just run an entirely physical one? CC/Crunch/Stone Edge/Ice Punch is just as good, while giving CC more power.

Super Puppy January 25th, 2009 8:21 PM

I'm not running an all-physical Lucario because I already have enough physical attackers, and I find that a mixed set is more versatile.

Super Puppy January 25th, 2009 9:34 PM

I know it seems like I'm going in circles, but I may actually bring Tangrowth back over Celebi, but this time as a special attacking tank/ wall.

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Bold/ Modest
EVs: 228 HP/ 200 Def/ 62 SAtk/ 28 Spe
~Sleep Powder
~Grass Knot
~Leech Seed
~Ancientpower/ Stun Spore

Tangrowth may be better for the job then Celebi, I think. He does have higher base stats for Defence and Special Attack, and is equal in HP. Plus Tangrowth has the ability to status, which is always fun.


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