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-   -   Vileplume was only used 36 more times than Magikarp in OUs in December (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=167257)

sims796 January 26th, 2009 9:48 PM

Vileplume was only used 36 more times than Magikarp in OUs in December
 
Seeing as how I got more views, and no replies, I'd like to try this again. Hopefully someone will help me out. I think I've found a suitable replacemnt for my sixth member.


I haven't played much, mostly because I have been getting bored with the game, but with Platinum comming in (presumably)m a few months, I've decided to try & fashion a Platinum team. I have lost some knowledge of the game & don't have the time to research the changes & effects of em' (yet I have time to make this thread), so I pray that you'll be able to help.

My skills dropped so much, even Dark Azelf is beating me. That n00b. I used to always beet him, like when my Lucario OHKO'ed his Weezing (at full health). I mean, what a phailure. Please don't ban me. Please don't change the thread title.

I work with funtionallity, & don't like to be tied down by tier (other than uber, of course), but I won't be diluted. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Wigglytuff doesn't work, and just cause I love it, doesn't mean I won't use it. However, if it is outclassed, no need to suggest it, unless it will immediately hamper my performance (i.e, Infernape outclasses Blaze, but I may want Blaze for other reasons). If you suggest any changes, don't suggest legendaries (this may be primarily for Wifi). Certain pokes I may not want (like Mence), but feel free to suggest. I'd like people who are skilled in the usage of many pokes to help, not just a primary OU player who will refuse options on the bat because it won't work on paper (like some people on Serebii--I was just trolling, honestly, not a real member).

Without further ado, here is my team of win.


[email protected] Band
Nature:Adamant
Outrage
Fire Punch
Earthquake
U-Turn
EV:252 Atk, 252 Spe, 6 HP

I love Flygon. My favorite Dragon type. I love his resistances, and the fact that I can play a little more reckless makes him an asset. All those resistances just means I don't have to fret so much over an unproper switch. I hurd a lot about this set, & I was initially put off by Outraging Flygon, but if the reports are rite, then it seems sound enough.


[email protected]
Nature:Calm
Substitute/Aromatherapy
Leech Seed
Stun Spore
Sludge Bomb
EV:244 HP, 144 Sp.D, 70 Def, 52 Sp.Atk

Vileplume is on all my teams, no exceptions. I wonder how he will fare in Plat? Just as fine, probably better. Substitute is my move of choice, but I may switch into Aromatherapy if I find my prediction skills lacking.


[email protected]
Nature:Impish
Stealth Rock
Slack Off
Earthquake
Yawn/Ice Fang
EV:252 HP,168 Def,88 SpD

Well, I've always wanted to use Hippoman, and now seemed like the perfect chance. I hurd how badly Salamence is, and both Sandstorm & Stealth Rock seems like a great solution. Roar is to help stop that freak from setting up. I was thinking of putting Hyper Beam, cause it worked in the Animoo. At least that's what my little cousin says, & he beet the Elite 4 THREE times!!!

EDIT: I had originally given him Yawn, and I love that move with a passion. Smacking down such powerful threats, but it hurts if they accept the sleep. May use Ice Fang.

HE IS THE LEAD!


[email protected]
Nature:Impish
Leaf Blade
Roar
Knock Off/Roar
Protect/Knock Off
EV:132 HP, 160 Atk, 216 Def

I've decided to use Vance's Leafeon set, since a few pokes lacks a reliable recovery move.
EDIT:Forgot to fix him up. Anti may be right. However, I was thinking of making him a Wishpasser, as I regretted NOT having Protect on him. & how the #$%@ does he lose to a Water type move!!!! Damn you, critical hit!


[email protected] Orb
Nature:Adamant
Close Combat
Stone Edge
Swords Dance
Extremespeed
EV: 252 Atk, 252 Spd

I've decided in making Luke into a pure SD-er.

EDIT:Leafeon may not be passing SD anymore, as it usually goes o Luke, as Anti said. If an opponent sees both Luke AND Leafeon using SD, they may get wise on the spot.


[email protected] Scarf
Nature:Timid
Hydro Pump/Surf
Thunderbolt
IceBeam
Trick
EV:252 SP.A, 252 Spe, 6 HP

[email protected]
Nature:Calm
Psychic
Seismec Toss
Light Screen
Reflect/Signal Beam/Substitute


Grumpig may suit this team more, giving me a direct counter to many Special attackers. I may make him a double screener with both Reflect & Light Screen.

Well, that's my team in a nutshell. I'm open to suggestions, but I will not replace Vilpelume or Flygon. The whole point is to try using this new Outrage Flygon. I also would like ot keep Leafeon, but I will lose him if need be. Hopefully, I will be able to keep Leafeon.

Archer January 27th, 2009 9:15 PM

I'll do a proper rate later, but if you can predict decently, you should be able to switch in Flygon or Starmie when they trick, leaving you with a free attack or switchin. To be honest, I am rather worried about Leafeon. It's not bulky enough to make use of it's Defence andd could be wasting a spot. Gliscor effectively gives you a better SD Passer and a Physical wall of sorts. Your choice.

dewey January 27th, 2009 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4313564)

[email protected]
Nature:Impish
Leaf Blade
Swords Dance
Roar
EV:132 HP, 160 Atk, 216 Spe

Sd allows Luke to be SO diverse, hough Roar isn't doing much. Might get Protect or Knock Off instead.wheres ur 4th move? im assuming its baton pass

how do you deal with scizor btw? nothing can really switch into him safely. flygons ur only poke that can even kill him effectively. im just focusing hard on scizor because nearly every1 keeps it on their team now.

also whatre the evs for hippo

and what is your special wall? vileplume?

Anti January 28th, 2009 2:27 AM

Use Leftovers on Vileplume since Trick is on more than Alakazam now, lol.

You need something that can stop Starmie on this team. I mean, Lucario is one of the best late-game sweepers in the game, but Leafeon is almost totally for Lucario. You're better off running a lure for SDluke's most common counters than giving it an extra moveslot. Crunch is kind of useless anyways (Cresselia is still Thunder Waving Lucario so who cares -_-)

I would go SD >>> Crunch on Lucario and put in something like Grumpig which at least has a shot at stopping Starmie and also stuff like Gengar (though that is far less threatening).

The other thing I don't like, naturally, is Choice Scarf Starmie...but that extends out of a personal belief that all Scarfers with a few rare exceptions are useless (because they are...) I mean you can keep it if you want (not like you'd let me stop you lol), but I would suggest Porygon2 if you can get it. It sort of a little bit kind of counters physical Salamence, but it does counter Heatran and Gyarados, two Pokemon that can be troublesome. But eh, your team might need a revenge killer, so keeping Scarf Starmie (as bad as it is) might actually be in the best interest of your team. I mean, you might as well try it out.

EDIT: The picture would be funny but the "LOL UR FALE" makes it so 4chanish I wanted to puke >_> Needs more "Just kidding" and less "YOU FAIL LOLZ"

Critic Anti is a critic!

Dark Azelf January 28th, 2009 5:38 AM

Well from when i battled this team, you know what im gonna say... Empoleon. More specifially sub petaya sets, luckily mine has grass knot >> Ice Beam and so you can Roar it away with Leafeon (unless it crits lol). However if it uses Ice Beam then things will become stickier for you, leaving starmie as the only thing not to die.

82.76%-97.70% Active Torrent + Petaya berry surf on your starmie, and Hydro Pump is another story since it pretty much OHKO's it lol.

You can revenge with Starmie, but it it subs yeah its a problem. Just something to take note of.


And as said Scizor is a problem, since you cant hit it. I mean you could use Fire Fang or some garbage on Hippow >> Roar since Leafeon already has a PHazing move.

Ill come back later if i spot more.

EDIT : - Foe SD Lucario are idiots to you, i mean you could use a better revenge killer >> Starmie who as shown doesnt function well this metagame due to its Pursuit weak thus leaving you open to Mence etc.

Spoiler:


http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo233/D_A_album/team.png

Maria Santos told me to post this, it wasnt my idea X]



EDIT 2 : - That is one sweeeeeeeet thread title =x lol

Beginnings January 28th, 2009 6:30 AM

I'm sort of new to this, but here it goes:

~On Hippowdon, I'd consider Ice Fang over Roar, Leafeon already has Roar, seems like a waste imo.

~Black Sludge is fine, if someone tricks your Plume, they get poisoned

~Lucario: I would think about giving him Bullet Punch over Stone Edge, I used the dual priority set, and it works rather well.

~I'm not really digging Leafeon in OU, but that's really up to you, I would probably go with another Baton Passer, off the top of my head I can think of Gliscor, which is more or less leafeon minus the fire weakness.

~I would replace Starmie with a revenge killer, Starmie doesn't fair all that well these days, you could think about Gengar I suppose, or ScarfTran, which would help with your Scizor weakness.

Just my two cents.

sims796 January 28th, 2009 6:56 AM

Thank you all very, very much.

I have made a fewe changes & a few mistakes. First, I've tested this team, and I made undocumented changes. I'll add them in.

These changes I forgot to add may not be enough to fix the team, but it *may* change some advice. Of course, If those edits I forgot to do (as you see, I rushed them in, as Leafeon doesn't have four moves) doesn't *fix* the team, I will definatley change the team to match some advice I've gotten.

Edits away!

PS:I hate DA MOAR.

Remember, check out the first, original post I made, for cheap proposals I made. If they don't fix the problem, I will be open to more advice.

Anti January 28th, 2009 7:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beginnings (Post 4316198)
~Black Sludge is fine, if someone tricks your Plume, they get poisoned

~Lucario: I would think about giving him Bullet Punch over Stone Edge, I used the dual priority set, and it works rather well.

It's fine until they just use Trick again and poison your Gyarados -_-

I must also disagree about Bullet Punch. It you want "dual priority," Scizor is your guy (BP and Quick Attack). Lucario is walled by too many things (though then again, so is Scizor...which might be why you don't see those sets much =o)

Leafeon needs to be Jolly to outspeed Adamant/Modest Salamence, who otherwise is going to crush it before it can BP. Also good for +Spd base 90s and 85s.

And yeah, Grumpig would be nice, but I don't know if it beats Empoleon or not.

sims796 January 28th, 2009 1:50 PM

Leafeon is Jolly, I forgot tochange it :P

Yeah, I,ll try out Piggly Wiggly for a while.

Today was a good day.

EIDT: Wait, wait a minute--damn it, D_A!

Archer January 29th, 2009 8:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4316320)
It's fine until they just use Trick again and poison your Gyarados -_-

I must also disagree about Bullet Punch. It you want "dual priority," Scizor is your guy (BP and Quick Attack). Lucario is walled by too many things (though then again, so is Scizor...which might be why you don't see those sets much =o)

Leafeon needs to be Jolly to outspeed Adamant/Modest Salamence, who otherwise is going to crush it before it can BP. Also good for +Spd base 90s and 85s.

And yeah, Grumpig would be nice, but I don't know if it beats Empoleon or not.

This isn't just to you, Anti, but I thought I should mention it. Non-Poison types are not "poisoned" by Black Sludge, but receive 1/8th damage each turn. This is actually worse, as it cannot be cured by Cleric moves nor does it conflict with other status - you can still be poisoned/burned/paralysed.

Another thing that still doesn't seem right to me - Hippowdon with Yawn. It's not a reliable sleep move, as anything that you want to sleep gets an extra hit in. It's also not the most effective Phazing move, as many stat-uppers RestTalk, anyway.

And how is Grumpig supposed to counter Empoleon. Empoleon resists Toxic, Psychic, Signal Beam and everything else it usually runs aside from HP Fighting. I don't have access to a damage calulator at the moment, but you may want to check that Hydro Pump doesn't 2HKO.

I know you love it, but what is Leafeon actually doing? Can it handle any particular threats well?

Rhys29 January 30th, 2009 4:56 AM

Let's see what I can do (sorry for the wall of txt)...

Flygon should be running Jolly. Choice Band gives him plenty of power and hitting 299 is not a suggested speed tier for leads as you are not tieing nor really beating anything useful. With the increased speed to 328 you can tie Jirachi, Salamence, and Zapdos while outrunning Roserade and Yanmega leads while 299 doesn't. Not to mention you're getting plenty of power from the Choice Band anyways so speed investments should take priority. Your Ev's should stay the same unless you want a little bit of investment in Hp and just outrun both Roserade and Yanmega.

The only thing that your Vileplume is doing that isn't being outclassed by Celebi is Aromatherapy, and the fact that Celebi is a far more sturdy wall makes it a far better option since it can still act as a status absorber with Natural Cure. If you are willing to consider Celebi (though I know you have personal preference for Vileplume, not ignoring that), you will want to run a set that does basically the same thing and more:

[email protected] Leftovers
Bold, Natural Cure
240 Hp, X Def/Sp.A, 216 Sp.D, Y Spe
- Thunder Wave
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock/Recover
- Psychic/Grass Knot

Sorry, I do my Ev's in kind of a different way, however I try giving you as much freedom and customization as possible. Your Def/Sp.A Ev's are dependant on your Spe Ev's as they take priority. Here are some options (Def/Sp.A = X // Spe = Y)
X: 52 // Y: 0 - Maximum defenses.
X: 20 // Y: 32 - Outruns Jolly Tyranitar.
X: 12 // Y: 40 - Outruns other defensive Celebi, Mismagius, and Substitute Suicune.
Those are your best options. However, if you do plan on using Vileplume, you are in desperate need of Aromatherapy as you have no other status absorber.

Hippowdon seems very out of place with your team. I'm sure Starmie won't like taking constant damage with no way of recovery while Leafeon and Vileplume will no longer have constant recovery each turn. Since you also have no reliable recovery move on your Sp.D wall, you will be hindering your team by putting him on here. My suggestion is a Rotom-H. I would suggest Rotom-C as an alternative, but you have Swampert handled.

[email protected] Leftovers
Bold, Levitate
252 Hp, X Def, Y Spe, Z Sp.D
- Reflect/Rest
- Light Screen/Sleep Talk
- Discharge
- Overheat

This set will let you deal with 3 occuring problems: 1) You have nothing that can take atleast nuetral from BoltBeam coverage, 2) The screens and Discharge will help you deal with Agility Empoleon if you are still worried about that, and 3) Takes care of your Scizor problem as he resists all of Scizor's common moves. The Ev's are as such:
X: 176 // Y: 0 // Z: 80 - Provides maximum defenses. Best used with RstTlk set.
X: 100 // Y: 156 // Z: 0 - Outruns Jolly Tyranitar and allows you to get a Relfect up before it Crunches you.
Those are solid. However, I use a different set which is less defensive than most would like, but you're welcome to use it:
Timid: 252 Hp, 68 Def, 188 Spe
This prevents a +1 Gyarados from OHKOing with Waterfall so you can come in on the switch and OHKO with Discharge and outruns Adamant Lucario.

Having two Grass types on your team means you are open to a lot of the same weaknesses, Scizor to name the obvious. With Rotom you'll be in nice shape however. There is a set I would like to try out with him... you can use it if you wish, however it is still being tested.

[email protected] Salac Berry
Jolly, Leaf Guard
X Hp, Y Att, Z Def, 112 Spe
- Wish/Leaf Blade
- Endure
- Baton Pass
- Leaf Blade/Swords Dance

This is a nifty little set I had thought up for Leafeon in the past. The point is to use Wish as it switches in, then use Endure the following turn if you know the attack is going to OHKO you. This immediately activates the Salac Berry, allows you to survive an attack, and gives you 50% due to wish. You need Baton Pass as you can scout the opponent and pass the +1 stage of speed. Usually one would want Leaf Blade for an attempt at a late game sweep or alteast KOing one poke before passing or attempting a sweep if you've scouted enough.

However, you said you wanted to pass Swords Dance with him. This will be tricky, but you can pull it off. First of all, you would indeed be very Taunt weak. However, you will probably only get one clean shot at this, so they won't be able to stop you the second time (not to say you shouldn't attempt it if the opportunity arises). The plan is to SD on the switch, use Endure to activate the berry, then BP it to Lucario. If you know the move cannot OHKO you, then you can use SD as they switch, Wish as they hit you hard and fail to OHKO, Endure next to activate the Salac and boost your Hp back up to 50%, and then Baton Pass the next turn to avoid getting taken out. This means the technique can somewhat be repeated, as Leafeon can switch back in again. It's up to you.

The Ev's are as following with your game plan:
X: 208 // Y: 188 // Z: 0 - This is used with Leaf Blade in mind. Gives you plenty of bulk and makes sure you OHKO standard Swampert 100% of the time with Leaf Blade.
X: 252 // Y: 0 // Z: 144 - This is used with Swords Dance in mind. Gives you the maximum amount of bulk and provides excellent defenses so it will be easier to pull the Swords Dance > Wish > Endure > Baton Pass combination.
Speed should always be at 112 so it can outrun Timid Heatran before the boost and Scarf Heatran after the boost (since you could also technically pass to Flygon who could take Fire Blast and then go for a late game sweep with a move such as Outrage).

Remember, this set can work, but not necessarily thanks to SS being common. Otherwise simply go with Roar (as you need a phazer) on your original set and move your Att to 188 or ditch him completely and invest in a mixsweeper.

Lucario should have Swords Dance by itself just in case you lose the passer. Never be too reliant on one part of your team, especially if it is to set up for a sweeper as you can also lose the sweeper (which would make either pointless if you lost either one). Instead of cuttin Crunch, you need to drop Stone Edge (which is more for Scarf or CB Lucario sets). Crunch makes sure Dusknoir cannot properly wall you and cuts the defense of walls that could normally only be 3HKO'd by him. You could, however, run Ice Punch and Bullet Punch > Crunch and Extremespeed respectively. This would make sure that Gengar cannot completely hinder your sweep. Ice Punch also makes sure Salamence or Gliscor cannot switch into you easily and attempt to wall/KO you.

Why is Starmie running maximum speed on a Scarf set 0_____0. What are you trying to tie, other Scarf Starmies or Scarf Azelf's (non-existant)? You should cut your speed down to 216 and put 40 more Ev's into Hp. This makes it so you outrun Scarf Gengar and Scarf Infernape while still have a little bit of Hp to toss around.

Once again, sorry for the huge wall of txt! Hope I help.

The Hero Without a Name January 30th, 2009 6:50 AM

Rhys, if CB Flygon goes Jolly, he lacks the power needed in order to 2HKO bulky waters, and especially Suicune (provided you have Stealth Rock down). He absolutely needs the power boost from Adamant nature in order to score these crucial 2HKO's.

Rhys29 January 30th, 2009 7:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiroi Togekiss (Post 4320495)
Rhys, if CB Flygon goes Jolly, he lacks the power needed in order to 2HKO bulky waters, and especially Suicune (provided you have Stealth Rock down). He absolutely needs the power boost from Adamant nature in order to score these crucial 2HKO's.

Flygon can only 2KHO Suicune with Adamant Outrage 10% of the time. He has no way of getting SR down on this team thus far, so that part is pointless. That being said, he doesn't have any reason to keep Flygon in on Suicune unless it is INSURED that it will indeed be OHKO'd next turn. The only bulky water that would be 2HKO'd by the switch is Swampert and it is not a threat in the least to this team. Obviously outrunning/tieing common leads takes priority over 2HKOing Swampert (where a lead Swampert would OHKO you with Ice Beam) on a team that doesn't need it.

Besides, Flygon is not used as a power hitter. He is used as a scouter since he is the only Dragon type to carry U-Turn. Outrage is saved for a mop up move, not a straight up sweeping move. His use is similar to that of Choice Band Scizor's: use U-Turn for a solid hit and effective scouting and use the other moves only when it is the best option.

However props to you for looking for the possible 2HKO. On a non-lead Flygon I probably would agree with you. However, his job is mainly to U-Turn first move and either break something's Focus Sash or scout the opponent for Dragon counters for him to be more cautious around.

sims796 January 30th, 2009 2:39 PM

Rhys, thank you for your help, but your advice is prety much outdated. Flygon with Outrage is a ver yhard hitter, 2HKO'ing many threats with the help of Sandstorm and/orStealth Rock. Without Adamant, Flygon isn't useful with Outrage at all. Heck, look at Smogon, they said it better.

Hippowdon doesn't really hurt my team, at all. Just because Sandstorm hurts a few members doesn't mean much. Not every member has to directly bbenifit. In fact, Sanfdstorm is so common, it is on almost every team, whether or not I use it. As I said, Yawn is not meant to be used as a direct sleep move, it is used to promote switching amonst the enemy (& did just that in quite a few battles).

I don't entirely need a special wall, as this team plays more on resistances. The conventional layout may not always be the best.

Max Spe IV's was an oversight that I was too lazy to fix both here & on shoddy. I was hoping someone would notice & correct me.

Most importantly, not to be snippy, but you don't have to explain the basics to me. I understand that using a Passer leaves me Taunt weak, that much is obvious.



Last, as I stated in the first post, no legends, as I cannot obtain them on wifi. Also, Plume always stays. I like using his resistances, and since he is my favorite, I play to his strentghs.

However, I thank you for your help regardless, but next time, remember that I have the IQ of a brick. Long posts confuse me...

Calum. January 30th, 2009 5:57 PM

replace leafeon with gliscor and if the whole idea is around flygon dont lead with him...

lead with starmie if you are using the trick variant as it can really stuff up some leads

Anti January 30th, 2009 6:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4320014)
This isn't just to you, Anti, but I thought I should mention it. Non-Poison types are not "poisoned" by Black Sludge, but receive 1/8th damage each turn. This is actually worse, as it cannot be cured by Cleric moves nor does it conflict with other status - you can still be poisoned/burned/paralysed.

Another thing that still doesn't seem right to me - Hippowdon with Yawn. It's not a reliable sleep move, as anything that you want to sleep gets an extra hit in. It's also not the most effective Phazing move, as many stat-uppers RestTalk, anyway.

And how is Grumpig supposed to counter Empoleon. Empoleon resists Toxic, Psychic, Signal Beam and everything else it usually runs aside from HP Fighting. I don't have access to a damage calulator at the moment, but you may want to check that Hydro Pump doesn't 2HKO.

I know you love it, but what is Leafeon actually doing? Can it handle any particular threats well?

Hydro Pump sucks (and nobody uses it for that reason). The reason I figured Grumpig has a shot is because not all Agility variants have Sub, which makes them vulnerable to status. The Sub ones can't actually hurt Grumpig without a Torrent boost (which it won't get unless it basically commits suicide, which is putting it in KO range for Starmie anyways).

Also, the only two Resttalk stat-uppers I know that are actually used are Suicune and Kingdra.

As far as the Flygon debate is concerned, Adamant is better 99% of the time. If you want a quick scout at the beginning of a match, that's one of the few uses of Choice Scarf so you could go that route. I agree though, Flygon isn't sweeping straight away, but then again, superdefensive Suicune isn't all that common anymore and many are more worried about beating Gyarados.

Otherwise I posted stuff before and not to take away from the originality of this team but Blissey would really help a lot here, lol. I'ts like Grumpig on speed, and your steam is still kind of efighedhoghk about fast special attackers like Starmie. Grumpig's lack of reliable recovery really sucks.

Rhys29 January 30th, 2009 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4321259)
Rhys, thank you for your help, but your advice is prety much outdated. Flygon with Outrage is a ver yhard hitter, 2HKO'ing many threats with the help of Sandstorm and/orStealth Rock. Without Adamant, Flygon isn't useful with Outrage at all. Heck, look at Smogon, they said it better.

Hippowdon doesn't really hurt my team, at all. Just because Sandstorm hurts a few members doesn't mean much. Not every member has to directly bbenifit. In fact, Sanfdstorm is so common, it is on almost every team, whether or not I use it. As I said, Yawn is not meant to be used as a direct sleep move, it is used to promote switching amonst the enemy (& did just that in quite a few battles).

I don't entirely need a special wall, as this team plays more on resistances. The conventional layout may not always be the best.

Max Spe IV's was an oversight that I was too lazy to fix both here & on shoddy. I was hoping someone would notice & correct me.

Most importantly, not to be snippy, but you don't have to explain the basics to me. I understand that using a Passer leaves me Taunt weak, that much is obvious.

Last, as I stated in the first post, no legends, as I cannot obtain them on wifi. Also, Plume always stays. I like using his resistances, and since he is my favorite, I play to his strentghs.

However, I thank you for your help regardless, but next time, remember that I have the IQ of a brick. Long posts confuse me...

Sorry for the long post as I had stated before hand. And I also tried to edit the noted snippiness as it did come off kind of offensive, but my comp spazzed and then I had work 0.0 As for what you said:

Do note that the reason Flygon is not the best user of Outrage is simply because Salamence completely overshadows it. Even a CB Flygon falls notably short of an Adamant LO Mence. If you are using Flygon to simply use Outrage then you want to switch to Mence as it outclasses it in every way but STAB EQ and U-Turn. As I said earlier: the main reason to use Flygon over every other Dragon is because it is the only one to carry U-Turn.

Also, I know you may all hate me for this, but Smogon is not as great as they seem. I do have to note that they are doing better and their updates are slowly getting better, but they only carry the basics. Do not take their advice/Ev's before thoroughly investigating what said poke can do. Smogon has done very well for itself otherwise though, so I can't really say they are bad since they really aren't. I use some of their sets when I don't have the time to make my Ev's specific.

A special wall will help you deal with fast BoltBeam users such as Gengar or Starmie whom, if you remember, I noted would tear your team apart since you have nothing that resists them. The fact that Hippowdown provides support that can easily be replaced and improved on by Swampert makes it kind of dead weight. The fact that other people carry SS doesn't really give you a reason to put it on your team itself since you lack a Rock type or a Sand Veil user, so it isn't helping your party. Btw: Hippowdon is far more effective with Roar as it forces a switch where Yawn is only hoping the opponent switches out.

If you cannot use Rotom, can you atleast use Cresselia? This would give you a way to stop Salamence (and I made the new Salamence specific wall, so you'll be getting a great set). It would also give you away around Empoleon and Bolt Beamers, however it will not benefit your team against Scizor, so a Zapdos could definitely benefit your team if you see a place for it (it can even replace Hippowdon with a bulky set).

I was not treating you like someone who didn't see Taunt weakness, I was mearly bringing it up before someone called me stupid for not noticing it.

I am sorry I keep contradicting you, but please do not call my advice dated.

Anti January 31st, 2009 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4322213)
Do note that the reason Flygon is not the best user of Outrage is simply because Salamence completely overshadows it. Even a CB Flygon falls notably short of an Adamant LO Mence. If you are using Flygon to simply use Outrage then you want to switch to Mence as it outclasses it in every way but STAB EQ and U-Turn. As I said earlier: the main reason to use Flygon over every other Dragon is because it is the only one to carry U-Turn.

A special wall will help you deal with fast BoltBeam users such as Gengar or Starmie whom, if you remember, I noted would tear your team apart since you have nothing that resists them. The fact that Hippowdown provides support that can easily be replaced and improved on by Swampert makes it kind of dead weight. The fact that other people carry SS doesn't really give you a reason to put it on your team itself since you lack a Rock type or a Sand Veil user, so it isn't helping your party. Btw: Hippowdon is far more effective with Roar as it forces a switch where Yawn is only hoping the opponent switches out.

Don't forget that Salamence has a Stealth Rock weakness, though. that's very important since it's on 99% of teams (the 1% being MythTrainerInfinity), and Flygon is also immune to SS damage. Flygon doesn't hit as hard, and it's impossible to deny that. However, Flygon is a lot harder to bring down by throwing passive damage at it, something that is quite frankly the only thing that really holds Salamence back. Flygon also has a STAB EQ...a much better secondary STAB than Aerial Ace. They almost serve different purposes, as Flygon lasts longer and can scout, while Salamence hits way harder. Saying Flygon is outclassed is a little misleading though.

I agree with the second paragraph as I've mentioned before. A special wall is what will help this team a lot, more than anything else.

Rhys29 January 31st, 2009 3:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4322534)
Don't forget that Salamence has a Stealth Rock weakness, though. that's very important since it's on 99% of teams (the 1% being MythTrainerInfinity), and Flygon is also immune to SS damage. Flygon doesn't hit as hard, and it's impossible to deny that. However, Flygon is a lot harder to bring down by throwing passive damage at it, something that is quite frankly the only thing that really holds Salamence back. Flygon also has a STAB EQ...a much better secondary STAB than Aerial Ace. They almost serve different purposes, as Flygon lasts longer and can scout, while Salamence hits way harder. Saying Flygon is outclassed is a little misleading though.

I agree with the second paragraph as I've mentioned before. A special wall is what will help this team a lot, more than anything else.

I had mentioned the STAB EQ as one reason. However it's SR weakness is outweighed by it's power and adversability. Hell, I use a Wish/Pass set and it still KO's about 2 pokes a game. Stealth Rock is not as common as you think, it is really only used about 60% of the time. A lot of teams have it but that doesn't mean it's something that will always be up turn one. It should only be applied when you are doing calculations on something you need to survive.

Anti January 31st, 2009 4:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4323382)
I had mentioned the STAB EQ as one reason. However it's SR weakness is outweighed by it's power and adversability. Hell, I use a Wish/Pass set and it still KO's about 2 pokes a game. Stealth Rock is not as common as you think, it is really only used about 60% of the time. A lot of teams have it but that doesn't mean it's something that will always be up turn one. It should only be applied when you are doing calculations on something you need to survive.

Salamence can't hurt anything if it's dead, just saying >_> SR is on every stall team for obvious reasons and almost every offensive team so that stuff like Flygon and Gyarados can get kills. 60% is waaaaaay too low. 99% might be too high, but it's at least 90%. It's everywhere.

But really, why can't you just get over sims' choice of dragon? You're either severely underestimating Flygon or hyping Salamence too much, because I have used both as CBers, and the extra power is really awesome, but Flygon is no slouch. It's not like Flygon is completely outclassed for the reasons I brought up in my previous post.

o_O

Rhys29 January 31st, 2009 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4323478)
Salamence can't hurt anything if it's dead, just saying >_> SR is on every stall team for obvious reasons and almost every offensive team so that stuff like Flygon and Gyarados can get kills. 60% is waaaaaay too low. 99% might be too high, but it's at least 90%. It's everywhere.

But really, why can't you just get over sims' choice of dragon? You're either severely underestimating Flygon or hyping Salamence too much, because I have used both as CBers, and the extra power is really awesome, but Flygon is no slouch. It's not like Flygon is completely outclassed for the reasons I brought up in my previous post.

o_O

SR is everywhere, that doesn't mean it's going to be out 24/7. I am not underestimating Flygon nor am I hyping up Salamence: they are simply different and I am pointing this out. Mence does attacking much better than Flygon as it has access to Dragon Dance and much higher attacking stats. Flygon is built to use moves like U-Turn as it is actually quite frail but it has useful resistances which allow it to switch in easier. Since Salamence can't switch in and out as easy as Flygon, Flygon is usually more effective as a Choice user as they need to switch often. Flygon, however, lacks the brute force needed to stay in or cause a threat as big as Salamence who can hit from both sides much harder.

The point I am trying to make is that in order to utilize Flygon's effectiveness, you need a speedy first hit to switch out so he can come back in later. However, the point has been made that it could use the power boost. It is simply my preference to outrun threats with a CB user. The CB powers up the attacking stat, so the power comes at a second priority to me. Sorry that this arguement is taking up this thread :\

Anti February 1st, 2009 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4324065)
SR is everywhere, that doesn't mean it's going to be out 24/7.

Yeah, but it's out almost always. Yeah, it won't be out sometimes, but it usually is (just look at the top leads and see how many set up SR).

I am not underestimating Flygon nor am I hyping up Salamence: they are simply different and I am pointing this out.

But we already know that.

Mence does attacking much better than Flygon as it has access to Dragon Dance and much higher attacking stats.

Buuuuuut sims is using a Choice Bander so DDmence is largely irrelevant. Yeah, Salamence has higher attack (WAY higher, actually), but Flygon isn't weak to SR, SS, and doesn't have a STAB Earthquake. Salamence's Outrage and its ability to break walls beats the crap out of Flygon's, but Salamence doesn't have a move that it can be conservative with (outside of Dragon Claw if anybody actually uses that) while still doing a lot of damage.

Your point before was exactly right - they are different, and with that I can tell you that CB Flygon is not outclassed by CBmence and CBmence is not outclassed by CB Flygon.

Also, just saying, but Flygon is usually U-turing right away anyways, so its counters are going to be in KO range for Outrage as it is. Just because it doesn't do as much doesn't mean it doesn't do enough.


Flygon is built to use moves like U-Turn as it is actually quite frail but it has useful resistances which allow it to switch in easier. Since Salamence can't switch in and out as easy as Flygon, Flygon is usually more effective as a Choice user as they need to switch often. Flygon, however, lacks the brute force needed to stay in or cause a threat as big as Salamence who can hit from both sides much harder.

Yeah, but that's not what CB Flygon is trying to do. Its lack of brute force doesn't matter when Outrage already crushed everything with SR damage (or if they had taken U-turn previously, which is the scenario this team will be familiar with).

Obviously it's not going to be the thread Salamence is because Flygon's Draco Meteor hits like a paper airplane and as you mentioned, Salamence's attacking stats are much higher. That's still no reason to sideline Flygon though, and it is easier to switch in and out without having to worry about passive damage and all. This team isn't an offensive force where Salamence's lack of longevity won't mean anything or where Flygon's lack of power is going to make or break the game. If this was an offensive team, I would see your point a lot more, but Flygon is a conservative attacker (that hits pretty damn hard for one) that fits well on this conservative team. This argument isn't/shouldn't be Salamence vs. Flygon - it should be Salamence vs. Flygon for this team. Flygon fits this team better...and that's what sims built it around. I don't know why you would want to replace it for Salamence knowing that.


The point I am trying to make is that in order to utilize Flygon's effectiveness, you need a speedy first hit to switch out so he can come back in later.

Yeah...it's not like you're bringing Flygon in on Starmie to get massacred. The opponent will probably be switching out once Flygon comes in since you should be bringing Flygon in on something it'll scare away. If the opponent is switching, Speed doesn't matter. Even if they don't, 299 speed isn't exactly bad.

However, the point has been made that it could use the power boost.

Well absolutely, Scarf Flygon hits like a paper airplane made out of Kleenex tissues, lol.

It is simply my preference to outrun threats with a CB user. The CB powers up the attacking stat, so the power comes at a second priority to me.

Yeah, your preference. It's okay to voice your opinion but the whole point of this team was to utilize CB Flygon, so I don't see how that matters. This is sims's team after all, you can't lose sight of that.

Sorry that this arguement is taking up this thread :\

I'm actually not, since PC lacks any real discussion these days anyways. Besides, at least it gives sims some information and two passionately argued sides that is probably more helpful than a lot of what could be posted. Besides, it's not like it's preventing other stuff from being posted, so eh.

Responses in bold...

I just don't see the point of you arguing this on when your original point was in fact this:

"Do note that the reason Flygon is not the best user of Outrage is simply because Salamence completely overshadows it. Even a CB Flygon falls notably short of an Adamant LO Mence. If you are using Flygon to simply use Outrage then you want to switch to Mence as it outclasses it in every way but STAB EQ and U-Turn. As I said earlier: the main reason to use Flygon over every other Dragon is because it is the only one to carry U-Turn."

...But it's not like sims isn't using U-turn. Just because he's using Flygon for U-turn doesn't mean it's blocking out the other advantages that come with it (that set him apart from Salamence). It's kind of like arguing Hippowdon vs. Gliscor when they go about their jobs differently. In this case, Flygon probably fits better.

Rhys29 February 1st, 2009 3:20 AM

I never actually told him to switch to Salamence. I said,
Quote:

If you are using Flygon to simply use Outrage then you want to switch to Mence
I agree that Flygon is the better choice for this team as it needs plenty of scouting to pull off.

You were arguing that Flygon has a powerful Outrage and it should be invested in. However, I am arguing it should be more invested in utilizing U-Turn effectively as to serve its role better. If it wants to use U-Turn first turn without being OHKOed, it should be more invested in outrunning threats so it can safely pull off a U-Turn and thus not waste your first turn by switching. For this reason, he can lose some of his attack power for speed.

Flygon should not be so invested for the use of Outrage as it is outclassed by Salamence in this prospect. It is similar to how Espeon and Alakazam are compared (in a way). Alakazam obviously has more power, more speed, and a better opportunity to sweep. This would mean that there would be no point in using Espeon for sweeping purposes in OU. However, Espeon has moves that Alakazam cannot take advantage of such as Wish and Baton Pass. This allows Espeon versatility in its uses where as Alakazam can really only attempt to sweep or use Trick. So to compare, Salamence has more power and a higher ability to sweep so it would be like Alakazam. Flygon has nice resistences and has the move U-Turn so it would have versatility like Espeon. This is the difference I am trying to point out.

So my point is that instead of investing in extra power, it may be wiser to invest in the speed more than the power. As with Espeon, it's versatility is what sets it apart from Alakazam and prevents it from being completely overshadowed by it in that aspect. This would be the same with Flygon: it should be less invested in sweeping when the ability to use the move it is ment to use is put in jeapordy. If it is indeed too slow to pull off U-Turn and is OHKO'd, it is indeed completely outclassed as it cannot perform the move that would set it apart. This is why one would be far more inclined to invest in speed on Espeon than on Sp.A as it would help it's ability to actually pull off the moves that make it useful.

Flygon already hits very hard with the CB and Jolly nature.
CB Jolly Att: 448.5
CB Adamant Att: 492
Yes, there is a difference and I know that. The gap seems pretty large, but the loss of speed is bigger. Without that speed boost, it cannot outrun threats such as Ice Punch Jolly Lucario (now being run as to counter speedy Gliscor and Salamence).

Btw: I am not trying to argue about using CB Salamence as it is suckage. In terms of sweeping power, CB Salamence is outclassed by Dragon Dance LO Salamence who also outclasses CB Flygon. CB Flygon is a far better choice than CB Salamence.

Anti February 1st, 2009 9:53 AM

Yeah, but it's not like using Adamant Flygon means it's overshadowed. I guess you could use the extra speed, but you really lose a lot of power with Outrage and everything else for that matter. I honestly don't see the need to outrun something like Lucario either, since it would never dare switch into Flygon and Flygon gets crushed by a boosted Extremespeed. I would much rather be able to 2HKO common walls after U-turing at them once then to beat Jolly Lucario if the both come in at the same time. Jolly Lucario isn't really common either (it's on ~20% of Lucario which isn't a whole...at least not enough to change the nature).

This team already has enough trouble breaking walls, so power > speed here. This team can take anything faster than Flygon that would threaten it (well, if hew put in Blissey or something to that effect). He can't really afford to keep so many walls around or his team is going to get stalled out (since walls are more often than not on stall or defensive teams these days).

There's a reason nobody uses Jolly Flygon...the metagame might be Speed-driven, but for this team it sure as hell won't make a difference and sims has things like Suicune and Cresselia to worry about, who he has to damage quickly or risk being swept/stalled (swept applies to Suicune only obviously, lol)

sims796 February 1st, 2009 10:12 AM

First, the main thing I must post on is this--I do not need to lose Sandstorm just because Iack a Sand Veiler, or because it hurts some walls. As I said, not every poke needs to resist Sandstorm, and when I battle, I must assume that SS is up before the match begins. Yawn is not only useful for Hazing, but for stopping threats cold, such as Mence, or Sub users switching in. If I find the move hurting me, I will definatly lose it. It was a key move in my last match.

As for Jolly vs Adamant, I may have to lean with Ant-Pop on this one. I do love the debate, it really gives me more reasoning, and gives me a solid direction. I pick Addy because I am not using him to take advantage of U-Turn, but to take advantage of his Outrage & resistances, which is what I mentioned in the first post. If I use anything but, there would be no reason to use Outrage at all.

Speaking of first post, I mentioned no legends. Not to be difficult, but I won't use em. I just don't care for em', so no Cressy, no Celebic, & no Rotom (only from lack of obtainability). Also, & this is for Anti in particular, I ain't really trying to be "original", but I only try to use pokes that brings me the most enjoyment to play with. It just so happens a few (too many :P) OU pokes don't do it for me, such as Mence. That said, I actually like Blissey, but you never see me use her, simply because I have no acess to Seismec Toss (I mean, really, still no D/P/P tutor).

I implore you two to keep debating till you see anything that fixes my team.

Also, Anti, how do you feel about TrickPig over Starmie on this team? I may turn Leaf back into a Wishpasser to back him up.

At this moment, I bet Anti beet me at posting.

EDIT:TOLD YA!!!

EDIT 2: P.S., I freakin' hate you, D_A!

Rhys29 February 1st, 2009 12:39 PM

Notice I said threats like Jolly Lucario. His team has no answers for Salamence, Zapdos, in fact anything with mediocre power over base 100 gives this team intense trouble. Salamence absolutely crushes this team after 1 DD as nothing can switch into it. Zapdos is unresisted, so having it can just OHKO half your members and 2HKO your walls. I would think that you would want atleast a way to attempt to stop them.

Have you noticed why no one uses Jolly Flygon? Because it has basically the same % as CB Flygon, which no one runs. Adamant is for Scarf which is extremely useful, Jolly is for Choice Band, and Naughty is for Life Orb. About 1/5th of the people who run CB run Adamant, so obviously that is saying something about collective opinion and knowledge.

You mentioned Cresselia as the need for power. This I actually lol at because if Cresselia can take Salamence with grace, it can most certainly take Flygon just as easily. You still have yet to show any hard evidence of anything common that can be prevented by increasing the attack power. The only arguement so far is that it will 2HKO the non-threatening Swampert which I found anyways. If you can list things that it will now for sure OHKO or 2HKO (and outrun) with the attack boost you would have a stronger arguement. For now you are simply saying attack > speed because this team itself lacks power. This does not give the lead which can be OHKO'd quite easily by common leads the right to sacrifice its speed for the extra boost if it will not be around to supply the power. Flygon without Fire Blast/Draco Meteor cannot break walls btw as it cannont hit from the special side.

@ OP: Once again, Outrage Flygon is completely outclassed by Salamence. There is no point is using Flygon if you are using it for Outrage. You are basically saying you want to use Altaria instead of Salamence because it looks bulkier, has DD as well, and has Natural Cure. Just because it has better resistances does NOT make it a better user of Outrage. Not using a poke that is clearly outclassed by another just because 'it doesn't work for you' isn't really a reason. You can do it, but seeing as you are using a poke that is completely overshadowed, I don't see your reasoning.

sims796 February 1st, 2009 12:54 PM

I've never, ever had any Mence issues. Before I change her, Starmie stopped any DDMence, & Hippowdown stopped Mence cold. Plus, as I stated, a Sp.Wall is comming in, so Zapdos is a non issue (not that I ever had any problems beating it before, what with Sandstorm/Stealth Rock).

I've also seen quite a few Flygon out there, & based on how they were outrun, I'd say they were Banded. I'm confused by that logic that BandGon isn't used much.

But for the only thing really directed at me, yes, I will use Outragon over OutrageMence, simply because unlike Altaria, he still hits very hard, 2HKO'ing & 3HKO'ing after SR/SS damage, while maintaining resistances.

. February 1st, 2009 1:00 PM

Before I start my rate, my I say that Anti is correct that Flygon requires Adamant to be an effective Choice Bander. The main reasons you'd use Flygon over something like Salamence include Flygon's Stealth Rock resistance, U-Turn, and of course, the STAB Earthquake. Almost everything else, including Specs, Mixed, Bulky, etc...are done better by Salamence. Salamence has a lot more power, more than 100 points of Attack when factoring in Adamant and a Choice Band. Still, this team needs something to come in and automatically cause a problem without any consequences. Salamence can do the same thing, but the lack of a Rapid Spinner on this team means Stealth Rock eats up 25% of its health. Flygon is superb for opening up sweeps, and softening the oppositions team.

That aside, I hope you're leading with Hippowdon, because if you're not, your lead Flygon will be dying a lot quicker to Azelf and Infernape. Sure he can break their sash, but both outspeed and can either OHKO (Explosion on Azelf, Fake Out + Endeavor + Vacuum Wave on Infernape). Hippowdon breaks their sash, and can Roar them both out, or just set up his own rocks. With an established lead, I must say, Swords Dance is the better option. Sometimes, the Baton Passes don't work. I can name a few scenarios where Leafeon would be successful with something else such as Wishpassing. I'd personally use something like this:

Leafeon @ Leftovers
Impish
252 HP / 114 Def / 144 Spe
-Leaf Blade
-Wish
-Roar
-Protect / Knock Off

Maximum HP and 114 Defense EVs grants 334 HP / 356 Defense. 144 Speed EVs allows you to outrun Adamant Gyarados, Jolly Tyranitar, and anything below. Wish and Protect are standard, and aid with handling Gyarados (whom can deal 70% maximum with Ice Fang, so be careful). If you come in quickly, you can Roar it out, or kill a weakened Gyarados with Leaf Blade. You could also go Maximum HP and Maximum Defense, to better take hits, but you now fail to outrun Adamant Gyarados and Jolly Tyranitar.

Use Aromatherapy on Vileplume. It's the only thing keeping it different from things like Venusaur and Tangrowth. Other than that, nothing else really. DD Tyranitar is troublesome, as is MixMence, as you have no safe switch in, nor a reliable way to kill it outside of Starmie, who could die to a CB Pursuit. Among other things, this team has trouble with hard core Special Attacks. Things like Specs Jolteon is a real ass to this team, as are SubGar (Sub / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / Hypnosis or Thunderbolt). You could try a Special Wall, or even a Tank like Snorlax. I don't know, it's your team.


EDIT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
Notice I said threats like Jolly Lucario. His team has no answers for Salamence, Zapdos, in fact anything with mediocre power over base 100 gives this team intense trouble. Salamence absolutely crushes this team after 1 DD as nothing can switch into it. Zapdos is unresisted, so having it can just OHKO half your members and 2HKO your walls. I would think that you would want atleast a way to attempt to stop them.

Salamence is a huge problem, as is Zapdos. However, I disagree with DD Mence destroying this team. Hippowdon is the best check today for it, although sims using Yawn is just idiotic. Ice Fang or Roar are much better alternatives. Ice Fang if he uses my Leafeon (=]).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
Have you noticed why no one uses Jolly Flygon? Because it has basically the same % as CB Flygon, which no one runs. Adamant is for Scarf which is extremely useful, Jolly is for Choice Band, and Naughty is for Life Orb. About 1/5th of the people who run CB run Adamant, so obviously that is saying something about collective opinion and knowledge.

I don't listen to statistics all the time, since there are many stupid people laddering everywhere. Adamant is the superior nature for this team, which doesn't have a lot of offensive power whatsoever. Thus, the extra power supplied by Adamant is superior in this case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
You mentioned Cresselia as the need for power. This I actually lol at because if Cresselia can take Salamence with grace,

2HKOed by CB Outrage 100% of the time when factoring in SR. 2HKOed by DD LO Outrage 100% of the time, regardless of SR or not. 2HKOed by Specs Draco Meteor when SR is down. Cresselia is a very shaky answer to Mence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
it can most certainly take Flygon just as easily.

Fair enough. U-Turning still is very annoying, especially with no Leftovers thanks to Sandstorm. Flygon can come out on top with enough prior damage, but yeah, Cresselia forces Flygon out in early game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
You still have yet to show any hard evidence of anything common that can be prevented by increasing the attack power. The only arguement so far is that it will 2HKO the non-threatening Swampert which I found anyways. If you can list things that it will now for sure OHKO or 2HKO (and outrun) with the attack boost you would have a stronger arguement. For now you are simply saying attack > speed because this team itself lacks power.

Vaporeon at times is not 2HKOed by Outrage from a Jolly specimen. That's important, since Vaporeon has the strongest bulky water Ice Beam in OU. Outrage loses a lot of power besides that, for example, Flygon can't 2HKO Porygon2 100% if Jolly. With Adamant, Flygon has a small, yet existing chance to 2HKO Shed Shell Skarmory with Stealth Rock down with Fire Punch. There is no such chance with Jolly. Flygon 2HKOs Suicune 100% of the time with Stealth Rock, but with Jolly, the chance lowers to 35%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
This does not give the lead which can be OHKO'd quite easily by common leads the right to sacrifice its speed for the extra boost if it will not be around to supply the power. Flygon without Fire Blast/Draco Meteor cannot break walls btw as it cannont hit from the special side.

Flygon should not be using Draco Meteor. It sucks coming off its Base 80 Special Attack. Fire Blast is good on the Scarf set, for Skarmory and Forretress. Otherwise, on CBer, Fire Punch is superior. I agree with your last point though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
@ OP: Once again, Outrage Flygon is completely outclassed by Salamence.

Earthquake Salamence is completely outclassed by Flygon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
@ There is no point is using Flygon if you are using it for Outrage. You are basically saying you want to use Altaria instead of Salamence because it looks bulkier, has DD as well, and has Natural Cure.

False statement. The Stealth Rock weakness and resistance can play a major role in what switches in and what does not switch in. And Altaria can be used over Salamence. It's not a smart idea whatsoever, since Altaria has the same weaknesses, same SR weakness, and only has Natural Cure to offer over Mence and a little bit of special bulk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
@ Just because it has better resistances does NOT make it a better user of Outrage. Not using a poke that is clearly outclassed by another just because 'it doesn't work for you' isn't really a reason. You can do it, but seeing as you are using a poke that is completely overshadowed, I don't see your reasoning.

Outrage is not the only move on the set. Once you realize that, then maybe I can better understand where you're coming from.

sims796 February 1st, 2009 1:08 PM

Ah, vance, a few things I neglected to mention in my first post:

Flygon was NEVER my lead, just the first poke I happend to list. I've tried the Hippo lead, & it worked out thus far.

I may or may not use Aroma. I feel Plume is different from Tangasaur, simply because he can use Stun Spore (Vena) & he has an added resist (Tang). However, I lack a stat absorber, so I may take your advice on that.

I like that Leafeon set.

Last, I am planning on adding in Grumpig w/Light Screen, to better block sp.attackers. Worked wonders before.

Thanks.

Anti February 1st, 2009 1:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325678)
Notice I said threats like Jolly Lucario. His team has no answers for Salamence, Zapdos, in fact anything with mediocre power over base 100 gives this team intense trouble. Salamence absolutely crushes this team after 1 DD as nothing can switch into it. Zapdos is unresisted, so having it can just OHKO half your members and 2HKO your walls. I would think that you would want atleast a way to attempt to stop them.

Have you noticed why no one uses Jolly Flygon? Because it has basically the same % as CB Flygon, which no one runs. Adamant is for Scarf which is extremely useful, Jolly is for Choice Band, and Naughty is for Life Orb. About 1/5th of the people who run CB run Adamant, so obviously that is saying something about collective opinion and knowledge.

You mentioned Cresselia as the need for power. This I actually lol at because if Cresselia can take Salamence with grace, it can most certainly take Flygon just as easily. You still have yet to show any hard evidence of anything common that can be prevented by increasing the attack power. The only arguement so far is that it will 2HKO the non-threatening Swampert which I found anyways. If you can list things that it will now for sure OHKO or 2HKO (and outrun) with the attack boost you would have a stronger arguement. For now you are simply saying attack > speed because this team itself lacks power. This does not give the lead which can be OHKO'd quite easily by common leads the right to sacrifice its speed for the extra boost if it will not be around to supply the power. Flygon without Fire Blast/Draco Meteor cannot break walls btw as it cannont hit from the special side.

@ OP: Once again, Outrage Flygon is completely outclassed by Salamence. There is no point is using Flygon if you are using it for Outrage. You are basically saying you want to use Altaria instead of Salamence because it looks bulkier, has DD as well, and has Natural Cure. Just because it has better resistances does NOT make it a better user of Outrage. Not using a poke that is clearly outclassed by another just because 'it doesn't work for you' isn't really a reason. You can do it, but seeing as you are using a poke that is completely overshadowed, I don't see your reasoning.

Adamant is for the sake of hitting things harder. You don't net many more KOs at all (as in turning 2HKOs into OHKOs and all that jazz), but you hit harder. I'm not even taking him leading with Flygon into account since he shouldn't even be leading with Flygon (because it's not a good lead). This is Flygon itself. And I know "just hitting harder" might seem like really faulty reasoning, but it's not like these things are going to be at 100% the entire match, and sometimes you need a 2HKO on 85% Suicune. That's the problem with theorymoning the whole thing. The extra power doesn't help with things that are at 100% health, but they rarely are. The extra power isn't for anything specific, but being an avid user of CB Flygon, there have been countless times where the extra power has indeed saved Flygon (and the match). Also, Cresselia doesn't take Salamnence with grace at all considering it's nearly killed by two LO Outrages and running max HP/max Def makes it way more vulnerable to Draco Meteor.

Also, you can't just assign natures to certain sets since it totally varies, and given the amount of new players that follow Smogon's analysis pages religiously, you can't say that Flygon is always Jolly when CBed. Most of those Jolly natures are probably on the LO set actually, since that what the site recommends and that's what most people follow (whether or not it's right).

I mean, there is no "right" answer for Adamant vs. Jolly, I think we can agree. It's down to personal preference. I think it would probably be wise to agree to disagree at this point and let sims make the decision so this thread can move forward.

And while I agree that using Flygon just for Outrage when Salamence is usually a better user of it (that's taking into account SR weakness and all of that), sims is still taking advantage of the advantages of Flygon (U-turn, as you mentioned), so I don't see how it's a big deal.

sims796 February 1st, 2009 1:43 PM

Yeah, for the sake of argument, I am using Adamant. Lets move on.

Now, if anyone still cares, I am going to make a few changes to my first, original post.

I will remove Starmie (--:'( --) for Grumpig. I don't wanna go into detail, but lets just say that Seismec Toss pig is available, while ST Bliss is not. I was thinking of making him a dual Scren setter, I dunno, but his set will be (so far)

[email protected]
Nature:Calm
Trait-Thick Fat
Psychic
Seismec Toss
Light Screen
Signal Beam/Substitute/Rest/Reflect/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat
EV:???

I'll work on EV's later.

I shall use Vance's (.) set for Leafeon.

Vance, U r a idiot! Yawn iz teh best moove.

I *may* change it to Ice Fang, but Yawn has been going great. But with Star gone, I may use Ice Fang.

Anti February 1st, 2009 1:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 4325908)
Yeah, for the sake of argument, I am using Adamant. Lets move on.

Now, if anyone still cares, I am going to make a few changes to my first, original post.

I will remove Starmie (--:'( --) for Grumpig. I don't wanna go into detail, but lets just say that Seismec Toss pig is available, while ST Bliss is not. I was thinking of making him a dual Scren setter, I dunno, but his set will be (so far)

[email protected]
Nature:Calm
Trait-Thick Fat
Psychic
Seismec Toss
Light Screen
Signal Beam/Substitute/Rest/Reflect/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat
EV:???

I'll work on EV's later.

I shall use Vance's (.) set for Leafeon.

Vance, U r a idiot! Yawn iz teh best moove.

I *may* change it to Ice Fang, but Yawn has been going great. But with Star gone, I may use Ice Fang.

Reflect and (if you can get it) Thunder Wave in the last two slots. Helps a ton with Pursuiters, though they'll usually still crush you. It's better than nothing. Either way, Use Reflect >>> Light Screen. Rest can also work since Grumpig is a pretty huge part of this team's defenses.

. February 1st, 2009 1:59 PM

With Starmie gone, Gyarados, namely a Dragon Dance variant, runs over your whole team. I mentioned Leafeon mainly since it can outspeed and Roar those that don't DD early on, but Leafeon gets 2HKOed by Ice Fang, and the rest of your team dies to it outside of that. For this reason alone, I strongly reccomend you replace Leafeon with Tangrowth.

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Impish
252 HP / 214 Def / 44 Spe
-Power Whip
-Sleep Power
-Knock Off
-Reflect

Tangrowth's options are unlimited! Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Toxic, and even Earthquake can go in the last slot. Reflect is the best option though, very underrated as well. 44 Speed EVs are for outspeeding 0 Speed Blissey for the Sleep Power, before it can Ice Beam and own you. This may seem foolish, but it can be quite important in situations. 44 Speed EVs also outruns 0 Speed Machamp, Relaxed Swampert, etc...All can be stopped with Power Whip / Sleep Powder. Knock It Off, Mojonbo Rules here!

Rhys29 February 1st, 2009 2:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4325763)
Salamence is a huge problem, as is Zapdos. However, I disagree with DD Mence destroying this team. Hippowdon is the best check today for it, although sims using Yawn is just idiotic. Ice Fang or Roar are much better alternatives. Ice Fang if he uses my Leafeon (=]).

Hippowdon is 2HKO'd by LO and Specs Mence. By your same logic as Cresselia it is not a counter though I do agree on the check.

Quote:

I don't listen to statistics all the time, since there are many stupid people laddering everywhere.
I wonder if there are also smart people out there laddering and know how to use Flygon.
Quote:

2HKOed by CB Outrage 100% of the time when factoring in SR. 2HKOed by DD LO Outrage 100% of the time, regardless of SR or not. 2HKOed by Specs Draco Meteor when SR is down. Cresselia is a very shaky answer to Mence.
Please list something that isn't 2HKO'd by any Salamence variation in OU. Also bolded is 100% false. The new designed Cresselia will never be OHKO'd by Adamant LO +1 Outrage or 2HKO'd by SpecsMence's Draco Meteor. Cresselia is the only thing in OU that can truely call itself a Salamence counter. Once agian, CB Salamence is non-existant.

Quote:

Vaporeon at times is not 2HKOed by Outrage from a Jolly specimen. That's important, since Vaporeon has the strongest bulky water Ice Beam in OU. Outrage loses a lot of power besides that, for example, Flygon can't 2HKO Porygon2 100% if Jolly. With Adamant, Flygon has a small, yet existing chance to 2HKO Shed Shell Skarmory with Stealth Rock down with Fire Punch. There is no such chance with Jolly. Flygon 2HKOs Suicune 100% of the time with Stealth Rock, but with Jolly, the chance lowers to 35%.
SR will not be down if Flygon is the lead. Taking SR into account is smart but taking it into account when it is not applicable is different. If you are not leading with something with SR, do not count on it. You also list things that are no where near close to being threats or are not garaunteed, which was my point in the first place.

Quote:

Flygon should not be using Draco Meteor. It sucks coming off its Base 80 Special Attack. Fire Blast is good on the Scarf set, for Skarmory and Forretress. Otherwise, on CBer, Fire Punch is superior. I agree with your last point though.
LO Naughty Flygon hits much harder than you would think with Draco Meteor. Kingdra is only base 95 and its Draco Meteor is something to be feared.

Quote:

Earthquake Salamence is completely outclassed by Flygon.
Please state when I said this wasn't true 0.0

Quote:

False statement. The Stealth Rock weakness and resistance can play a major role in what switches in and what does not switch in. And Altaria can be used over Salamence. It's not a smart idea whatsoever, since Altaria has the same weaknesses, same SR weakness, and only has Natural Cure to offer over Mence and a little bit of special bulk.
Outrage should be used to KO everything remaining the opponents party. This means the said user should not switch out. It should also mean it should switch in on something that would force a switch. This means you would not be switching out if everything is done correctly. Thus resistances and such are not needed. Welcomed, but not necessary.

Quote:

Outrage is not the only move on the set. Once you realize that, then maybe I can better understand where you're coming from.
My entire arguement is against the power boost for Outrage and for the speed boost for U-Turn. Everyone else seems to be the one obsessed with Outrage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4325821)
I mean, there is no "right" answer for Adamant vs. Jolly, I think we can agree.

OP has just now brought up that it is not his lead after all this. As I stated earlier Adamant is for non-leads. Jolly is for leads. If you are not a bulky lead, you need the speed so you don't take hits. If you are bulky, there isn't as much use for speed. However, since it is not a lead, Adamant is the right decision.

I wish people would read my post more carefully 0.0 do not judge on post count if you are.

PS-If Gyarados is an issue, Vaporeon handles it easily.

Anti February 1st, 2009 2:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys29 (Post 4325973)
I wish people would read my post more carefully 0.0 do not judge on post count if you are.

PS-If Gyarados is an issue, Vaporeon handles it easily.

We aren't. We need knowledgeable people around here anyways with the "departure" of Vance and the general lack of activity. all it was was a debate, we don't think anything less of you and I ask that you not think any less of us ;D You seem knowledgeable, a mere disagreement should make anybody think less of anybody else. The issue can die now, lol.

And Vaporeon is always a solid choice in that respect. Also helps pass Wish to keep everything (especially Grumpig) healthy.

luke February 1st, 2009 2:06 PM

Rhys. No one cares about post count. :|

Also, every person has varying opinions on what's necessary and what's not. Not everyone is going to conform to what you view as correct. You've argued your points soundly and people disagree. Just drop it.

sims796 February 1st, 2009 2:06 PM

Please, I don't wanna hear anymoar of this. Gon is not my lead. I will be using Addy. Take it to VM, and there is a Group for these disscusions. I want no more mention from anyone at all.

Now, I didn't really want to, but Vance may have a good point. So I'll be replacing Leaf with Tangrowth (--:'<).

Quick question, does Substitute block Trick?

EDIT: AHA ANTI BEAT MEH

. February 1st, 2009 2:11 PM

Quote:

Hippowdon is 2HKO'd by LO and Specs Mence. By your same logic as Cresselia it is not a counter though I do agree on the check.
Forgive me, I meant physical Salamence. It's obvious Hippowdon doesn't stop LO/Specs Mence.

Quote:

I wonder if there are also smart people out there laddering and know how to use Flygon.
The ones using Adamant Flygon.

Quote:

Please list something that isn't 2HKO'd by any Salamence variation in OU. Also bolded is 100% false. The new designed Cresselia will never be OHKO'd by Adamant LO +1 Outrage or 2HKO'd by SpecsMence's Draco Meteor. Cresselia is the only thing in OU that can truely call itself a Salamence counter. Once agian, CB Salamence is non-existant.
"New Cresselia" <--- Clarification please. Cresselia also is a decent Salamence check. There are no Salamence counters. You have to split them into groups: MixMence counters, DD Mence counters, CB Mence counters, Specsmence counters, etc...It's tough, but that's because Salamence is so powerful.

Quote:

SR will not be down if Flygon is the lead. Taking SR into account is smart but taking it into account when it is not applicable is different. If you are not leading with something with SR, do not count on it. You also list things that are no where near close to being threats or are not garaunteed, which was my point in the first place.
Flygon is not the lead.

Quote:

LO Naughty Flygon hits much harder than you would think with Draco Meteor. Kingdra is only base 95 and its Draco Meteor is something to be feared.
LO Naughty Flygon is outclassed by LO Naive Salamence. Draco Meteor is pretty strong, but what I was referring to was mainly Scarf Draco Meteor, which is terrible.

Quote:

Please state when I said this wasn't true 0.0
I was trying to make a point, that this entire "___ using ___ move is outclassed by ____ using the same move" is a bad argument. You're not using Flygon primarily because of Outrage. It's a great addition, but Flygon has other selling points, such as SR resistance, STAB EQ, U-Turn, and the underrated Electric immunity.

Quote:

Outrage should be used to KO everything remaining the opponents party. This means the said user should not switch out. It should also mean it should switch in on something that would force a switch. This means you would not be switching out if everything is done correctly. Thus resistances and such are not needed. Welcomed, but not necessary.
So by this logic, one should ONLY bring in "Outrage User ___" when the opponents team is weak? This shows how you can play Salamence and Flygon differently. Flygon isn't a giant monster that destroys everything like Salamence. It's like a scout of sorts, but it can indeed cause mayhem with Outrage in late game. Of course, the same could be said for Salamence, minus the scouting part and not being a monster.

Quote:

My entire arguement is against the power boost for Outrage and for the speed boost for U-Turn. Everyone else seems to be the one obsessed with Outrage
I use CB Flygon on my teams since it's not SR weak. Call it crazy, but that's literally THE reason I use it over Salamence or Dragonite. Losing 25% each turn is completely ridiculous. SR resistance eases up on the prediction, which is, by the way, very welcoming.

Quote:

OP has just now brought up that it is not his lead after all this. As I stated earlier Adamant is for non-leads. Jolly is for leads. If you are not a bulky lead, you need the speed so you don't take hits. If you are bulky, there isn't as much use for speed. However, since it is not a lead, Adamant is the right decision.
Wait, what? Flygon shouldn't be leading, and while I realize you were confused (I was too), tell me what Jolly outspeeds from the common leads and stops that Adamant doesn't. Adamant is overall better.

Quote:

I wish people would read my post more carefully 0.0 do not judge on post count if you are.
No one does that.

Rhys29 February 1st, 2009 2:18 PM

New Cress is: Calm - 204 Hp, 196 Def, 108 Sp.D Will never be OHKO'd by Adamant LO +1 Outrage or 2HKO'd by SpecsMence Draco Meteor.

I also mentioned in my first post (maybe my second) what it would gain to outrun by running Jolly as a lead. Now that it has been clarified as a non-lead I am 100% with both of you on Adamant.

Dark Azelf February 1st, 2009 2:18 PM

Im sure there are much more important things to argue/discuss in this topic than about than "which nature is best for flygon" the argument has been presented by both sides and all you are all doing is flogging a dead horse. At the end of the day its up to the op, so just drop it.

sims796 February 1st, 2009 2:20 PM

And as I said five times, I am using Addy. I will hear no more of this, please.

Now, as I said, I will sadly replace Leaf with Growth, and Star with Grumpig.


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