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Notice I said threats like Jolly Lucario. His team has no answers for Salamence, Zapdos, in fact anything with mediocre power over base 100 gives this team intense trouble. Salamence absolutely crushes this team after 1 DD as nothing can switch into it. Zapdos is unresisted, so having it can just OHKO half your members and 2HKO your walls. I would think that you would want atleast a way to attempt to stop them.
Have you noticed why no one uses Jolly Flygon? Because it has basically the same % as CB Flygon, which no one runs. Adamant is for Scarf which is extremely useful, Jolly is for Choice Band, and Naughty is for Life Orb. About 1/5th of the people who run CB run Adamant, so obviously that is saying something about collective opinion and knowledge. You mentioned Cresselia as the need for power. This I actually lol at because if Cresselia can take Salamence with grace, it can most certainly take Flygon just as easily. You still have yet to show any hard evidence of anything common that can be prevented by increasing the attack power. The only arguement so far is that it will 2HKO the non-threatening Swampert which I found anyways. If you can list things that it will now for sure OHKO or 2HKO (and outrun) with the attack boost you would have a stronger arguement. For now you are simply saying attack > speed because this team itself lacks power. This does not give the lead which can be OHKO'd quite easily by common leads the right to sacrifice its speed for the extra boost if it will not be around to supply the power. Flygon without Fire Blast/Draco Meteor cannot break walls btw as it cannont hit from the special side. @ OP: Once again, Outrage Flygon is completely outclassed by Salamence. There is no point is using Flygon if you are using it for Outrage. You are basically saying you want to use Altaria instead of Salamence because it looks bulkier, has DD as well, and has Natural Cure. Just because it has better resistances does NOT make it a better user of Outrage. Not using a poke that is clearly outclassed by another just because 'it doesn't work for you' isn't really a reason. You can do it, but seeing as you are using a poke that is completely overshadowed, I don't see your reasoning. |
I've never, ever had any Mence issues. Before I change her, Starmie stopped any DDMence, & Hippowdown stopped Mence cold. Plus, as I stated, a Sp.Wall is comming in, so Zapdos is a non issue (not that I ever had any problems beating it before, what with Sandstorm/Stealth Rock).
I've also seen quite a few Flygon out there, & based on how they were outrun, I'd say they were Banded. I'm confused by that logic that BandGon isn't used much. But for the only thing really directed at me, yes, I will use Outragon over OutrageMence, simply because unlike Altaria, he still hits very hard, 2HKO'ing & 3HKO'ing after SR/SS damage, while maintaining resistances. |
Before I start my rate, my I say that Anti is correct that Flygon requires Adamant to be an effective Choice Bander. The main reasons you'd use Flygon over something like Salamence include Flygon's Stealth Rock resistance, U-Turn, and of course, the STAB Earthquake. Almost everything else, including Specs, Mixed, Bulky, etc...are done better by Salamence. Salamence has a lot more power, more than 100 points of Attack when factoring in Adamant and a Choice Band. Still, this team needs something to come in and automatically cause a problem without any consequences. Salamence can do the same thing, but the lack of a Rapid Spinner on this team means Stealth Rock eats up 25% of its health. Flygon is superb for opening up sweeps, and softening the oppositions team.
That aside, I hope you're leading with Hippowdon, because if you're not, your lead Flygon will be dying a lot quicker to Azelf and Infernape. Sure he can break their sash, but both outspeed and can either OHKO (Explosion on Azelf, Fake Out + Endeavor + Vacuum Wave on Infernape). Hippowdon breaks their sash, and can Roar them both out, or just set up his own rocks. With an established lead, I must say, Swords Dance is the better option. Sometimes, the Baton Passes don't work. I can name a few scenarios where Leafeon would be successful with something else such as Wishpassing. I'd personally use something like this: Leafeon @ Leftovers Impish 252 HP / 114 Def / 144 Spe -Leaf Blade -Wish -Roar -Protect / Knock Off Maximum HP and 114 Defense EVs grants 334 HP / 356 Defense. 144 Speed EVs allows you to outrun Adamant Gyarados, Jolly Tyranitar, and anything below. Wish and Protect are standard, and aid with handling Gyarados (whom can deal 70% maximum with Ice Fang, so be careful). If you come in quickly, you can Roar it out, or kill a weakened Gyarados with Leaf Blade. You could also go Maximum HP and Maximum Defense, to better take hits, but you now fail to outrun Adamant Gyarados and Jolly Tyranitar. Use Aromatherapy on Vileplume. It's the only thing keeping it different from things like Venusaur and Tangrowth. Other than that, nothing else really. DD Tyranitar is troublesome, as is MixMence, as you have no safe switch in, nor a reliable way to kill it outside of Starmie, who could die to a CB Pursuit. Among other things, this team has trouble with hard core Special Attacks. Things like Specs Jolteon is a real ass to this team, as are SubGar (Sub / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / Hypnosis or Thunderbolt). You could try a Special Wall, or even a Tank like Snorlax. I don't know, it's your team. EDIT Quote:
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Ah, vance, a few things I neglected to mention in my first post:
Flygon was NEVER my lead, just the first poke I happend to list. I've tried the Hippo lead, & it worked out thus far. I may or may not use Aroma. I feel Plume is different from Tangasaur, simply because he can use Stun Spore (Vena) & he has an added resist (Tang). However, I lack a stat absorber, so I may take your advice on that. I like that Leafeon set. Last, I am planning on adding in Grumpig w/Light Screen, to better block sp.attackers. Worked wonders before. Thanks. |
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Also, you can't just assign natures to certain sets since it totally varies, and given the amount of new players that follow Smogon's analysis pages religiously, you can't say that Flygon is always Jolly when CBed. Most of those Jolly natures are probably on the LO set actually, since that what the site recommends and that's what most people follow (whether or not it's right). I mean, there is no "right" answer for Adamant vs. Jolly, I think we can agree. It's down to personal preference. I think it would probably be wise to agree to disagree at this point and let sims make the decision so this thread can move forward. And while I agree that using Flygon just for Outrage when Salamence is usually a better user of it (that's taking into account SR weakness and all of that), sims is still taking advantage of the advantages of Flygon (U-turn, as you mentioned), so I don't see how it's a big deal. |
Yeah, for the sake of argument, I am using Adamant. Lets move on.
Now, if anyone still cares, I am going to make a few changes to my first, original post. I will remove Starmie (--:'( --) for Grumpig. I don't wanna go into detail, but lets just say that Seismec Toss pig is available, while ST Bliss is not. I was thinking of making him a dual Scren setter, I dunno, but his set will be (so far) [email protected] Nature:Calm Trait-Thick Fat Psychic Seismec Toss Light Screen Signal Beam/Substitute/Rest/Reflect/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat EV:??? I'll work on EV's later. I shall use Vance's (.) set for Leafeon. Vance, U r a idiot! Yawn iz teh best moove. I *may* change it to Ice Fang, but Yawn has been going great. But with Star gone, I may use Ice Fang. |
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With Starmie gone, Gyarados, namely a Dragon Dance variant, runs over your whole team. I mentioned Leafeon mainly since it can outspeed and Roar those that don't DD early on, but Leafeon gets 2HKOed by Ice Fang, and the rest of your team dies to it outside of that. For this reason alone, I strongly reccomend you replace Leafeon with Tangrowth.
Tangrowth @ Leftovers Impish 252 HP / 214 Def / 44 Spe -Power Whip -Sleep Power -Knock Off -Reflect Tangrowth's options are unlimited! Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Toxic, and even Earthquake can go in the last slot. Reflect is the best option though, very underrated as well. 44 Speed EVs are for outspeeding 0 Speed Blissey for the Sleep Power, before it can Ice Beam and own you. This may seem foolish, but it can be quite important in situations. 44 Speed EVs also outruns 0 Speed Machamp, Relaxed Swampert, etc...All can be stopped with Power Whip / Sleep Powder. Knock It Off, Mojonbo Rules here! |
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I wish people would read my post more carefully 0.0 do not judge on post count if you are. PS-If Gyarados is an issue, Vaporeon handles it easily. |
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And Vaporeon is always a solid choice in that respect. Also helps pass Wish to keep everything (especially Grumpig) healthy. |
Rhys. No one cares about post count. :|
Also, every person has varying opinions on what's necessary and what's not. Not everyone is going to conform to what you view as correct. You've argued your points soundly and people disagree. Just drop it. |
Please, I don't wanna hear anymoar of this. Gon is not my lead. I will be using Addy. Take it to VM, and there is a Group for these disscusions. I want no more mention from anyone at all.
Now, I didn't really want to, but Vance may have a good point. So I'll be replacing Leaf with Tangrowth (--:'<). Quick question, does Substitute block Trick? EDIT: AHA ANTI BEAT MEH |
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New Cress is: Calm - 204 Hp, 196 Def, 108 Sp.D Will never be OHKO'd by Adamant LO +1 Outrage or 2HKO'd by SpecsMence Draco Meteor.
I also mentioned in my first post (maybe my second) what it would gain to outrun by running Jolly as a lead. Now that it has been clarified as a non-lead I am 100% with both of you on Adamant. |
Im sure there are much more important things to argue/discuss in this topic than about than "which nature is best for flygon" the argument has been presented by both sides and all you are all doing is flogging a dead horse. At the end of the day its up to the op, so just drop it.
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And as I said five times, I am using Addy. I will hear no more of this, please.
Now, as I said, I will sadly replace Leaf with Growth, and Star with Grumpig. |
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