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-   -   [email protected] Suspect Test Discussion (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=167860)

Pokedra February 3rd, 2009 12:08 AM

[email protected] Suspect Test Discussion
 
http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/dp/380.png

Overview

Latias (without Soul Dew) has been unbanned by Smogon, and since PokeCommunity follows their tier system, she is unbanned here as well.

After Latios is tested (see below), Latias will be tested with Soul Dew unbanned.

Information

Typing: Dragon / Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Base Stats:
HP: 80
Atk: 80
Def: 90
Spd: 110
SAtk: 110
SDef: 130

Weaknesses

- Bug (2x)
- Dark (2x)
- Dragon (2x)
- Ghost (2x)
- Ice (2x)

Resistances

- Electric
- Fighting
- Fire
- Grass
- Psychic
- Water

Immunities

- Ground (due to Levitate)

Movepool

Latias has a fairly diverse movepool, and the best options will be listed here. Since there is a section on Latios and their movepools are similar, moves that are exclusive to Latias will be bolded.

Notable Attack Moves

- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Energy Ball
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Surf
- Thunderbolt

Notable Defensive/Support Moves

- Calm Mind
- Light Screen
- Protect
- Psycho Shift
- Rain Dance
- Recover
- Reflect
- Roar
- Roost
- Safeguard
- Substitute
- Sunny Day
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave
- Wish

Movesets

Name: Defensive Calm Mind
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Dragon Pulse/Psychic/Surf
-Substitute
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
Evs: 128 HP / 128 SpAtk / 252 Spe

Very simple, throw up a Sub to guard against status problems then proceed to Calm Mind. Once the Sub is broken throw up another Sub again. If HP is low then Recover and get around 4-6 CM's then proceed to sweep with your sweeping move.

Latias can beat Blissey usually and can 2HKO the 148HP/0 SpD Bold Blissey which is still common. Remember you can use Modest nature and pump more SpAtk EV's to do more to Blissey at the expense of Spe and HP.
Here's some damage calculations to what I think Smogon will call counters.
These are with Timid nature and with 6 Calm Minds.

Dragon Pulse against 252HP/176 SpD Calm Blissey - 40.76% - 47.90%
Dragon Pulse against 0HP/216 SpD Calm Blissey - 43.47% - 51.15%
Dragon Pulse against 148HP/0 SpD Bold Blissey - 53.05% - 62.50%
Surf against 252HP/92 SpD Sassy Bronzong - 72.78% - 85.50%
Dragon Pulse against 168HP/220 SpD Careful Snorlax - 65.01% - 76.54%


Name: Choice Specs
-Draco Meteor
-Surf
-Ice Beam/HP Fire/HP Fighting
-Thunderbolt/HP Fire/HP Fighting
Item: Choice Specs
Nature: Timid/Modest
Evs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe

Latias is an powerful threat wth Choice Spec having massive coverage. Draco Meteor leaves dents in walls like Blissey and Snorlax. Surf is for Heatran, Bronzong, Tyranitar and Infernape. The rest is up to you, Boltbeam will give you at least a neutral hit on everything in the enitre game!

Here are some damage calculations for counters and top-OU threats to prove that Latias will be a threat.

Draco Meteor against 168HP/220 SpD Careful Snorlax - 46.52% - 54.67%
Draco Meteor against 4HP/0 SpD Adamant Snorlax - 67.32% - 79.22%
Ice Beam against 236HP/116 SpD Adamant Salamence - 165.64% - 194.87%
Surf against 248 HP/204 SpD Modest Heatran - 63.12% - 74.29%

Name: Special Wall
-Dragon Pulse/Psychic
-Thunder Wave/Roar
-Reflect
-Recover
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid/Modest
Evs: 252 HP/86 Def/140 SpD/28 Spe
Latias won't be as good as Blissey at special walling but it is a fair wall. This Latias is still faster then Scizor and Metagross and can throw up a Reflect to stop their immense attacks from denting Latias heavily. Roar is to pseudo-Haze away Pokemon who like to pad up their own stats. Recover is to recover HP when you need it. Dragon Pulse or Psychic is incase you need to attack.

With Reflect up, Scizors fails to 3HKO with Swords Dance Bullet Punch. Metagross fails to 2HKO with Meteor Mash and Snorlax falls to 2hKO with Crunch.

Damage Calculations against Latias with Reflect up:
Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Metagross with Meteor Mash - 38.19% - 44.78%
Adamant Life Orb-Swords Dance 252 Atk Scizor with Bullet Punch - 25.82% - 30.49%
Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Snorlax with Crunch - 35.16% - 41.48%
Counters


http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/dp/242.png
~Blissey~
Blissey is an obvious choice for a counter against Latias as she nearly always a special attackers however Latias could beat her with the Defensive Calm Mind set. Latias can throw up a Sub to protect against Toxic/Thunder Wave and then proceed to use Calm Mind and Recover when it needs to. With 6 CM's it can 2HKO most Blissey. However Blissey with Seismic Toss will win against Latias hwoever BoltBeam Blissey will probably not.

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/dp/143.png
~Snorlax~
Nice SpD and excellent HP and Crunch. Perfect counter? Well no, Snorlax can take hits from Latias and CB Snorlax can OHKO with Crunch but its not all good. If SR is up the CB Snorlax will take around 80-90% from Draco Meteor and SR just by switching in. The standard 168HP/220 SpD Careful Snorlax has a better chance taking 60-70% from SR and Draco Meteor. He isn't too good a counter but he totally destroys the Defensive Calm Mind since it needs a few Calm Mind's to hurt him while he uses Crunch for a 2HKO.


http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/dp/381.png

Overview

Latios, on the other hand, has not been banned, but Smogon is currently testing it without Soul Dew as their latest suspect. Since it is very similar to Latias, it will also be in the discussion.

Information

Typing: Dragon / Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Base Stats:
HP: 80
Atk: 90
Def: 80
Spd: 110
SAtk: 130
SDef: 110

NOTE: The following information regarding weaknesses, resistances, and immunities is the same as the information listed for Latias, so if you have already read that, there is no need to read this.

Weaknesses

- Bug (2x)
- Dark (2x)
- Dragon (2x)
- Ghost (2x)
- Ice (2x)

Resistances

- Electric (2x)
- Fighting (2x)
- Fire (2x)
- Grass (2x)
- Psychic (2x)
- Water (2x)

Immunities

- Ground (due to Levitate)

Movepool

Like Latias, Latios has a wide movepool. It learns mostly the same moves as Latias, but there are some notable differences. Like with Latias, any bolded moves are those that Latios can learn, but not its twin partner.

Notable Attack Moves

- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Pulse
- Earthquake
- Energy Ball
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Surf
- Thunderbolt

Notable Defensive/Support Moves

- Calm Mind
- Light Screen
- Protect
- Psycho Shift
- Rain Dance
- Recover
- Reflect
- Roar
- Roost
- Safeguard
- Substitute
- Sunny Day
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave

Counters

Coming soon!

They are mostly the same as Latias's counters, but Latios packs more power and the threat of Dragon Dance. If Latios is downgraded counters will be done by me and Anti.

Anti February 3rd, 2009 4:16 AM

Latios will be added to the first post eventually as it is the latest suspect, and is the a very similar Pokemon. Also, more movesets will be added in since we probably should have more than a defensive Calm Mind set if we want to discuss how threatening it is. Good thread though. Everything will be added to the first post since it is fairly incomplete right now. There is a thread about Latias here that will be helpful.

The main problems Latios faces are Steel-types and Tyranitar. It always needs a boosted Hidden Power Fire to hit Metagross, Scizor, Skarmory (though it takes a ton from Dragon Pulse already), and the rest of the gang. Heatran is really only threatened by HP Ground/Fighting or Surf. Tyranitar is the real problem, since Surf has to basically be coming from a Choice Specs Latias or it won't even 2HKO standard 176 HP/0 SDef Tyranitar. Of course, Pursuit will deal with Latias.

Also, with the defensive CM set, Latias will likely be stuck at low HP without a Substitute (unless you're playing against a no Seismic Toss Blissey, and they aren't exactly uncommon). With Seismic Toss, and can weaken Latias enough to force it to Recover without protection, and Blissey can hit it with status.

I'm largely okay with the downgrade, but I've hardly played against it at all, so that could definitely change. Offensively though, it is definitely counterable (though still threatening, for sure). Its list of weaknesses might be its greatest downfall so far, I don't know.

EDIT: I revamped the first post to make it a discussion thread rather than one person's opinion in the first post. Thanks for the start, Pokedra! Now we can discuss this.

Sebastien Loeb February 3rd, 2009 1:40 PM

For me they have to stay uber, I have played a lot in the Suspect Ladder, and I absolutely have to say that the metagame is worsened a lot of, all the teams in that ladders were composed from Tyranitar + Blissey + 2 Latias Counter + 2 Pokémon random, therefore not really the maximum one...

Aurafire February 3rd, 2009 3:14 PM

I never thought that Latias would be game-breaking if it got moved down to OU. Without soul dew, I still consider it just an "above average" OU pokemon. The CM set is easily walled, and it doesn't really have any other amazingly threatening options. That being said, I threw it on one of my shoddy teams to see for myself what it can do. I'm still not expecting much though...

Latios is kind of a different story since it has a significantly higher special attack stat, but again, it's easily walled by Blissey and steels. I'm thoroughly expecting Latios to get the downgrade as well. Honestly, they both wouldn't be coming down to OUs if they were going to be too much to handle.

. February 3rd, 2009 3:24 PM

The reason Latias was Uber is Soul Dew. The Special Defense and Attack (moreso the former) makes it able to take hits from the most terrifying threats and hit back hard. Latias works nicely in OU, having quite a decent sized amount of counters. Tyranitar, Metagross, Scizor, and even Heracross are all offensive threats that can beat the Calm Mind set, assuming it runs the standard Surf / Dragon Pulse / Recover / CM. Latias requires HP Fire to kill Scizor in one hit, and to prevent it from OHKOing with U-Turn / X-Scissor. Latias is always doomed against Tyranitar, as CB Crunch OHKOs and CB Pursuit kills it if it switches out. Furthermore, +1 LO Surf does a maximum of 67% to Max HP Tyranitar, never an OHKO even with Stealth Rock support. Metagross is in an even better situation; taking 60% maximum from Surf, and dealing 100.33% minimum to 6 HP / 0 Def specimens of Latias. Heracross can live even a boosted Dragon Pulse with HP EVs, or can come in on the Calm Mind, and OHKO it with Megahorn easily.

Aside from offensive monster, Snorlax and Blissey handle Latias relatively well. Choice Band Lax is the best Snorlax set to consider, as Crunch is an easy OHKO with Stealth Rock down. Blissey T-Waves / Toxics and alternates with Softboiled and Seismic Toss to bring it down. Latias is fine in OU.

Latios may prove to be different. Less bulk for more Special Attack isn't such a bad prospect considering lack of Soul Dew. We'll see how this turns out.

Anti February 3rd, 2009 3:27 PM

I stand corrected when I said it gets walled by steels to an extent...just look at these damage calculations:

All of this is a Modest max SAtk Choice Specs Latios:

Surf on 252 HP/0 SDef Metagross: 591 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (95 Base Power): 187 - 220 (51.37% - 60.44%) - guaranteed 2HKO with SR down or if it lacks Leftovers (almost always does since those are the CBer EVs)

HP Fire on 252 HP/92 SDef Bronzong: 591 Atk vs 320 Def & 338 HP (70 Base Power): 186 - 220 (55.03% - 65.09%)


...I could go on, but HP Fire and even Surf definitely take care of what they have to. This is what happens when half of my response is theorymon, lol.

Also, to show the power of Draco Meteor, here is the same Specs 394 SAtk Latios on 362 HP/216 SDef Metagross:

591 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (140 Base Power): 205 - 242 (56.32% - 66.48%)

It still isn't really switching in for free since it's getting mauled by Draco Meteor. ScarfTran runs into similar troubles, as it lacks Leftovers recovery and doesn't resist SR.

That being said, you do have to predict right or Latios is walled, as is true with all users of Choice Specs. However, I think that Soul Dew could cause them to gain a huge upgrade since they can throw in a recovery move if they want while retaining awesome power and great special defense...

...But that's just me theorymoning. Still, Latios has such huge power than it can still do heavy damage many Steel-types. Even Latias is a big threat. It has to predict spot-on and basically will have to run Choice Specs, but they CAN get past Steels if they really want to.

But it should also be noted that those calculations are with a Modest Latios, which probably won't be used so Latios can outspeed stuff like Jolly/Naive Salamence and tie with Gengar.

Either way, Latios can certainly get by Steel-types if it wants to. However, using HP Fire is basically begging Tyranitar to come in and punish it. Scizor and Weavile won't have such luck though.

If anything, I think what might hurt the [email protected] is lack of physical defense and their fairly long list of weaknesses. They do make perfect Mixape counters though.

Just some stuff to consider. I haven't watched or played enough battles to form any kind of opinion on the matter it seems, lol.

. February 3rd, 2009 3:51 PM

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Careful
252 HP / 82 Atk / 176 SpD
-Crunch
-Stone Edge
-Aqua Tail / Earthquake
-Pursuit

538 Atk vs 308 Def & 404 HP (90 Base Power): 152 - 180 (37.62% - 44.55%)

Basically, a Choice Specs Latios's Surf doesn't guarantee a 2HKO without Stealth Rock, even then it's not guaranteed. Crunch guarantees an OHKO on the same Choice Specs Latios. This is a check, although the rare Grass Knot is more threatening.


Snorlax @ Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk / 252 SpD / 6 HP
-Return
-Crunch / Fire Punch
-Earthquake
-Selfdestruct

538 Atk vs 319 Def & 461 HP (140 Base Power): 255 - 300 (55.31% - 65.08%)

That's Draco Meteor the first time. The second one does:

268 Atk vs 319 Def & 461 HP (140 Base Power): 127 - 150 (27.55% - 32.54%)

Not a 2HKO, whereas CB Crunch does:

525 Atk vs 196 Def & 302 HP (80 Base Power): 308 - 364 (101.99% - 120.53%)

OHKOs 100% of the time. Pursuit can be used, but Crunch is pretty much needed to kill Latios if he wants to be smart and stay in.

Anti February 3rd, 2009 4:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4330874)
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Careful
252 HP / 82 Atk / 176 SpD
-Crunch
-Stone Edge
-Aqua Tail / Earthquake
-Pursuit

538 Atk vs 308 Def & 404 HP (90 Base Power): 152 - 180 (37.62% - 44.55%)

Basically, a Choice Specs Latios's Surf doesn't guarantee a 2HKO without Stealth Rock, even then it's not guaranteed. Crunch guarantees an OHKO on the same Choice Specs Latios. This is a check, although the rare Grass Knot is more threatening.

How is this even relevant? 82% of Tyranitars used don't even run ANY special defense EVs, and 42% don't have HP EVs. Careful Nature is super rare as well (the "other" nature category for Tyranitar is >6.7%). Yeah, it's technically a counter, but it's very rare and generally not as effective as standard CBTar (seriously, getting outsped by Vaporeon is terrible).

On a standard CBtar, a Choice Specs Surf does this:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (95 Base Power): 208 - 246 (54.03% - 63.90%)

...Which is a 2HKO regardless of SR or Leftovers. Even if it uses the "wrong" move in Draco Meteor, it still hammers CBtar:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (140 Base Power): 229 - 270 (59.48% - 70.13%)

Draco Meteor will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock down (59% and 29% minimums for before and after the SAtk drop, respectively)

CBLax takes so much from Draco Meteor that it's essentially rendered useless as well. Also, there is a chance for a 2HKO there with Stealth Rock down (and don't forget the possibility of Snorlax having to face Sadnstorm damage or not being at full health - granted, this can be used for any counter mentioned, but CBLax needs all of its HP or it's going to die or be so horribly crushed that anything can come in and finish it off.

. February 3rd, 2009 4:22 PM

Quote:

How is this even relevant? 82% of Tyranitars used don't even run ANY special defense EVs, and 42% don't have HP EVs. Careful Nature is super rare as well (the "other" nature category for Tyranitar is >6.7%). Yeah, it's technically a counter, but it's very rare and generally not as effective as standard CBTar (seriously, getting outsped by Vaporeon is terrible).
That spread is the standard CBTar used in Ubers, with 40 EVs moved to Attack. It's used to sponge Special hits. And if you admit it to be a counter, why would you even bash it? So what if it's rare. The point is it handles Latios more often than not, thus it should considered.

Quote:

On a standard CBtar, a Choice Specs Surf does this:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (95 Base Power): 208 - 246 (54.03% - 63.90%)

...Which is a 2HKO regardless of SR or Leftovers. Even if it uses the "wrong" move in Draco Meteor, it still hammers CBtar:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (140 Base Power): 229 - 270 (59.48% - 70.13%)

Draco Meteor will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock down (59% and 29% minimums for before and after the SAtk drop, respectively)
Oh fantastic, but I don't care about the standard CBTar. I'm talking about the Specially Defensive CBTar, while it lacks the sheer destructive power of the standard CBTar, it takes hits better.

Quote:

CBLax takes so much from Draco Meteor that it's essentially rendered useless as well. Also, there is a chance for a 2HKO there with Stealth Rock down (and don't forget the possibility of Snorlax having to face Sadnstorm damage or not being at full health - granted, this can be used for any counter mentioned, but CBLax needs all of its HP or it's going to die or be so horribly crushed that anything can come in and finish it off.
Umm...

Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD CB Lax: 60%-71%

It gets hammered even harder with Max HP and Min SpD. So you're point about running Max HP is invalid, unless you're trying to say something else and I'm not catching on.


Honestly, just because something is not common, doesn't mean it's not going to work. Those sets can be used to handle [email protected] in a pinch.

Skip Shot February 3rd, 2009 4:25 PM

(Jumping into the line of gunfire here...) SD Luke can make a good revenge killer. According to Metalkid's, +2 Crunch will easily OHKO (147-172%) a max HP Latios. Just don't think about switching in, because every move that Latios carries bar GK can hit Luke hard due to Luke's frailty. (DM and Psychic are 2HKOs iirc).

. February 3rd, 2009 4:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sc4rfCh0mp (Post 4330957)
(Jumping into the line of gunfire here...) SD Luke can make a good revenge killer. According to Metalkid's, +2 Crunch will easily OHKO (147-172%) a max HP Latios. Just don't think about switching in, because every move that Latios carries bar GK can hit Luke hard due to Luke's frailty. (DM and Psychic are 2HKOs iirc).

Specs Surf 2HKOs it. Nevermind the fact that Lucario is outsped by the Lati twins.

Anti February 3rd, 2009 4:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .
That spread is the standard CBTar used in Ubers, with 40 EVs moved to Attack. It's used to sponge Special hits. And if you admit it to be a counter, why would you even bash it? So what if it's rare. The point is it handles Latios more often than not, thus it should considered.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered, I'm saying that what a special defensive CBTar does to Latios pretty much has no effect on its effectiveness in the tier. Being walled by a certain common type of Pokemon like bulky waters or steels is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by .
Oh fantastic, but I don't care about the standard CBTar. I'm talking about the Specially Defensive CBTar, while it lacks the sheer destructive power of the standard CBTar, it takes hits better.

None of this "oh fantastic" stuff, alright?. Anyway, I know you don't care what Latios does to standard CBTar, but considering it is one of the most grave threats to Latios with its high special defense and access to Pursuit, it certainly is relevant. Actually, it's way more relevant than "specially defensive CBTar" since nobody uses it and it's outclassed by standard CBTar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by .
Umm...

Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD CB Lax: 60%-71%

It gets hammered even harder with Max HP and Min SpD. So you're point about running Max HP is invalid, unless you're trying to say something else and I'm not catching on.

Indeed, I meant that if Snorlax has taken prior damage it loses, not that it should be investing in HP.

Quote:

Honestly, just because something is not common, doesn't mean it's not going to work. Those sets can be used to handle [email protected] in a pinch.
I'm not saying they won't work, I'm saying that they don't matter in the big picture (the effectiveness of the [email protected] in the tier and how that relates to their tier status with and without Soul Dew). Defensive CBTar is a solid counter (though I certainly don't think CBLax is), and I know all you were doing was listing counters, but it's not nearly as good as normal CBTar is, and it being able to counter the [email protected] probably won't help it much. That's all I was saying.

. February 3rd, 2009 4:40 PM

Quote:

I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered, I'm saying that what a special defensive CBTar does to Latios pretty much has no effect on its effectiveness in the tier. Being walled by a certain common type of Pokemon like bulky waters or steels is.
I'm suggesting CB Tar to give people an example of what counters [email protected] No harm in that, eh? Unless I'm mistaken, and we're not allowed to post counters.



Quote:

Enough of this crap. I know you don't care what Latios does to standard CBTar, but considering it is one of the most grave threats to Latios with its high special defense and access to Pursuit, it certainly is relevant. Actually, it's way more relevant than "specially defensive CBTar" since nobody uses it. If you're looking for a Latios counter it is, but that's not the purpose of this thread, and sassing me for not conforming to what you think the focus should be isn't going to fly with me.
Getting angry at me isn't going to solve anything. So I'll disregard the first part of your post. I can understand what you're saying, but what I'm trying to post is a counter to the standard [email protected]. I honestly don't see why you have to try and bash the moveset I'm reccomending. If it works, it works. I'm not expecting it to rise in usage, nor do I expect it to become a staple for countering [email protected], but I am suggesting it to give people an idea of what counters [email protected]

Quote:

And if you absolutely MUST dispute this with me, please do it over PM. Otherwise this thread is going to get messy.


If you're going to start getting emotional/angry over a discussion I have nothing else to say but "Lol".



Quote:

Indeed, I meant that if Snorlax has taken prior damage it loses, not that it should be investing in HP.
Okay



Quote:

I'm not saying they won't work, I'm saying that they don't matter in the big picture (the effectiveness of the [email protected] in the tier and how that relates to their tier status with and without Soul Dew). Defensive CBTar is a solid counter (though I certainly don't think CBLax is), and I know all you were doing was listing counters, but it's not nearly as good as normal CBTar is, and it being able to counter the [email protected] probably won't help it much. That's all I was saying.
And all I'm saying is that they do counter [email protected] (CBTar doing it better of course. I don't see the need to go and bash them for either "not being common enough" or "dying after it kills [email protected]".

Anti February 3rd, 2009 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4330994)
I'm suggesting CB Tar to give people an example of what counters [email protected] No harm in that, eh? Unless I'm mistaken, and we're not allowed to post counters.

We are, but CBLax is a shaky counter at best and the fact that Def. CBTar is almost completely outclassed by standard CBTar hardly makes it notable.

Getting angry at me isn't going to solve anything. So I'll disregard the first part of your post. I can understand what you're saying, but what I'm trying to post is a counter to the standard [email protected]. I honestly don't see why you have to try and bash the moveset I'm reccomending. If it works, it works. I'm not expecting it to rise in usage, nor do I expect it to become a staple for countering [email protected], but I am suggesting it to give people an idea of what counters [email protected]

If you're going to start getting emotional/angry over a discussion I have nothing else to say but "Lol".

Expect a PM message soon since you clearly aren't willing to take that initiative.

Okay

And all I'm saying is that they do counter [email protected] (CBTar doing it better of course. I don't see the need to go and bash them for either "not being common enough" or "dying after it kills [email protected]".

There isn't any harm at all, I agree, and I never said there was. I was disagreeing with them being viable counters which is why I wasn't so hot about you posting them. The reason I brought up how common Def. CBTar is is because it illustrates my point for me - Standard CBTar outclasses it, which makes it a poor choice on teams.

It's kind of like why nobody used Choice Scarf Cresselia to counter YacheChomp (other than YacheChomp being way worse than advertised)...Choice Scarf Cresselia isn't good. You could list it in a "Counters" section, but it's really not notable since it's really only useful over other versions of Cresselia for that one use.

. February 3rd, 2009 4:56 PM

Quote:

We are, but CBLax is a shaky counter at best and the fact that Def. CBTar is almost completely outclassed by standard CBTar hardly makes it notable.


So? Standard CBTar outclasses Special CBTar in terms of brute power, yes, and in terms of doing damage, yes, but Special CBTar handles [email protected], which can be useful if your team is in need of a [email protected] check, as well as a hard hitter.

Quote:

There isn't any harm at all, I agree, and I never said there was. I was disagreeing with them being viable counters which is why I wasn't so hot about you posting them. The reason I brought up how common Def. CBTar is is because it illustrates my point for me - Standard CBTar outclasses it, which makes it a poor choice on teams.
Read above.

Quote:

It's kind of like why nobody used Choice Scarf Cresselia to counter YacheChomp (other than YacheChomp being way worse than advertised)...Choice Scarf Cresselia isn't good. You could list it in a "Counters" section, but it's really not notable since it's really only useful over other versions of Cresselia for that one use.
Choice Scarf Cresselia was sadly the victim of being labeled as an overcentralized counter. You could say the same about Special CBTar, but hey, if it works, it works. And I'm willing to use it if it works.

Quote:

Expect a PM message soon since you clearly aren't willing to take that initiative.


Expect no response because there is nothing wrong with leaving this discussion in the open.

Anti February 3rd, 2009 6:20 PM

I'm not angry about our CBTar/Lax debate and I encourage it (as long as it remains on-topic and whatnot). The rest is being taken care of by PM so let's move on then.

And hey, Scarf Cresselia actually worked alright when I tested it for a short while (you know, before Plat changes and whatnot). Even if something works, if it is outclassed, why use it? I see your point, but Def. CBTar is an "Other Options" counter. I'm not disputing you bringing it up, since it is relevant in the sense that it counters Latios, but it isn't in the sense that Def. CBTar probably shouldn't be used and is turned into a "notable" counter but definitely not the ideal one. Especially since Surf and Draco Meteor still take off a ton of its health in the process and it can't recover off previously-taken damage.

As for CBLax, it's kind of like using a Ground-type that takes 90%-99% from Close Combat...it's technically a counter and even with SR damage it can survive the hit, but it HAS to be a full health switching in or it's almost certain to lose. Even if it doesn't, it is essentially a sacrifice (not to undermine how useful they can be) and is killed. I don't think CB Snorlax is even notable because of how shaky it is. that's why people don't say "yeah, Swampert is my SDLuke counter."

Again, I don't have a problem with you posting counters, I just don't like the ones you posted. Especially Snorlax, it needs a defensive set or it's toast.

Archer February 3rd, 2009 10:01 PM

People seem to be under the wrong impression about CBLax and CBTar.. Neither of the two are actually walls/as sturdy as they think, but can use their high SDef to switch in easily. Snorlax needs Max SDef/HP to take big hits even when it has access to ResTalk. It seems to be that when you're playing with heavy hitters, it's become 'standard' to rely on typing rather than pure stats.

I think the best way to deal with it is to cripple it with TWave/Body Slam and switch in Bulky Steels or whatever resists the type it's going to use. The fact is that it's in OU, now so this should be a "New Threat" Discussion, rather than a OU/Uber debate.

No-one can decide on the 'best' EV Spread for the bulky CMer, so I think that's worth looking into.
I'm thinking it needs 300/329 Spd to outspeed Salamence/Flygon and enough SAtk the OHKO Blissey at +6. Opinions?

Pokedra February 3rd, 2009 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4330806)
The reason Latias was Uber is Soul Dew. The Special Defense and Attack (moreso the former) makes it able to take hits from the most terrifying threats and hit back hard. Latias works nicely in OU, having quite a decent sized amount of counters. Tyranitar, Metagross, Scizor, and even Heracross are all offensive threats that can beat the Calm Mind set, assuming it runs the standard Surf / Dragon Pulse / Recover / CM. Latias requires HP Fire to kill Scizor in one hit, and to prevent it from OHKOing with U-Turn / X-Scissor. Latias is always doomed against Tyranitar, as CB Crunch OHKOs and CB Pursuit kills it if it switches out. Furthermore, +1 LO Surf does a maximum of 67% to Max HP Tyranitar, never an OHKO even with Stealth Rock support. Metagross is in an even better situation; taking 60% maximum from Surf, and dealing 100.33% minimum to 6 HP / 0 Def specimens of Latias. Heracross can live even a boosted Dragon Pulse with HP EVs, or can come in on the Calm Mind, and OHKO it with Megahorn easily.

Aside from offensive monster, Snorlax and Blissey handle Latias relatively well. Choice Band Lax is the best Snorlax set to consider, as Crunch is an easy OHKO with Stealth Rock down. Blissey T-Waves / Toxics and alternates with Softboiled and Seismic Toss to bring it down. Latias is fine in OU.

Latios may prove to be different. Less bulk for more Special Attack isn't such a bad prospect considering lack of Soul Dew. We'll see how this turns out.

Note : This is for the Smogon Choice Specs set :
Heracross doesn't count as a counter. It usually gets 2HKO by Dragon Pulse with HP EV's and Latias is faster then it so unless it is a Choice Scarf variant it will usually be slower and also Choice Scarf variants don't invest EV's in HP so Heracross is probably not a counter.

Blissey and Snorlax do handle Latias pretty well but there are still ways for her to beat them.

Latias will be threat in OU even without Soul Dew. Sure Blissey and Snorlax can wall it to an extent but it still has huge coverage and 110 Spe, 110 SpAtk and 130 Spd.

Latios is NOT better then Latias. He may have better Attack but he is far less bulky 80/80/110 compared to 80/90/130 is quite a difference. He is better offensively but Latias is bulkier and can support.

I know the Choice Band set looks really bad but it actually works pretty well. Please take a look at the damage calculations. Don't randomly say "You're a noob! Latias can't use physical attacks!" because Togekiss can and it has base 50 Atk. :P

Dark Azelf February 5th, 2009 7:16 AM

Quote:

Latios is NOT better then Latias. He may have better Attack but he is far less bulky 80/80/110 compared to 80/90/130 is quite a difference. He is better offensively but Latias is bulkier and can support.
Define "better". They both do different jobs so really cannot be compared.

Quote:

I know the Choice Band set looks really bad but it actually works pretty well. Please take a look at the damage calculations. Don't randomly say "You're a noob! Latias can't use physical attacks!" because Togekiss can and it has base 50 Atk.
But Togekiss gets Hustle which kinda
Quote:

Pokémon with this ability do 50% more damage with physical attacks
.....does this o_0


There is little to no reason to use physical [email protected] EVER, pretty much every OU physical oriented Dragon outclasses it (bar like Trick?). So until Salamence and friends either die or becomes uber, please prove me wrong.


In regards to Heracross, i believe the one he was referring to was/is indeed scarfed.


Anyways i keep seeing the word "counter", as said by Tangerine on smogon "You should be trying to get over this countering mentality". Its an extremely outdated view on how to go about discussing things and really doesnt work well in D/P/P. Sure if you can counter stuff go ahead (and [email protected] DOES have counters), no one is stopping you and it still works in some cases. However, checks and revenge killers are MUCH more efficient this gen/metagame, fact.


EDIT : And no, im not back posting in s+m for good yet, and yes i still feel bad.

Pokedra February 5th, 2009 12:10 PM

Quote:

Define "better". They both do different jobs so really cannot be compared.



But Togekiss gets Hustle which kinda

.....does this o_0


There is little to no reason to use physical [email protected] EVER, pretty much every OU physical oriented Dragon outclasses it (bar like Trick?). So until Salamence and friends either die or becomes uber, please prove me wrong.

In regards to Heracross, i believe the one he was referring to was/is indeed scarfed.

Anyways i keep seeing the word "counter", as said by Tangerine on smogon "You should be trying to get over this countering mentality". Its an extremely outdated view on how to go about discussing things and really doesnt work well in D/P/P. Sure if you can counter stuff go ahead (and [email protected] DOES have counters), no one is stopping you and it still works in some cases. However, checks and revenge killers are MUCH more efficient this gen/metagame, fact.
Physical Latias gets the jump on stuff like Blissey/Snorlax who try to wall it. Heracross is a viable counter somewhat but he still needs some HP EV's to survive a Choice Specs Draco Meteor if he can at all and I'm pretty sure most people invest in Atk and Spe so they wouldn't drop Atk EV's just for Latias unless they have a big problem with her.

I agree though Salamence outclasses her when it comes to physical sets though but it's usable.

Sebastien Loeb February 5th, 2009 12:53 PM

Have I played very today, and me trail immediately the desire to play on Shoddy Battle, and have I immediately returned to use NB, because? The metagame has become really very bad, it is inconceivable that a Pokémon as Latias both OU, the Toxic of the various Blissey, Cresselia and others that I am not here to quote, clears come as if nothing pits from moves as Substitute/Safeguard/Rest+Chesto Berry, the proper Special Wall cannot take for ever hits in switch because of Stealth Rock and Spikes, without counting whether to demolish a Blissey Latias can be accompanied by a Dugtrio, let's show up us if Blissey doesn't have Ice Beam, you don't come to speak to me of Tyranitar and Heracross, since nobody would leave Latias in front of that Pokémon them, therefore in theory it serves the I help some following moves: Pursuit.

ABYAY February 5th, 2009 1:44 PM

Now that I can post this because last night the site stopped working...

Latias is going to cause an increase in Blissey and the use of Steels like Metagross, Bronzong, and even Registeel. HP Fire hurts them, but...

-Metagross can be defensive and set up Stealth Rock (Think Draco Meteor), hit hard with Meteor Mash, or hit with Pursuit.
-Bronzong can Toxic/Gyro Ball Latias, or in some rare cases now, hit with Hypnosis.
-Registeel has Thunder Wave/Toxic, and can at least hit with Ice Punch. Also, some sets can set up Curses on Latias.

Although not a "counter", Weavile outpaces and smacks with STAB moves. Mamoswine can come in on the revenge, a Specs Thunderbolt, or Calm Mind and hit hard with CB Ice Shard. I'm probably underestimating the bulkiness of Latias though.

Really, either use S.Toss Blissey or be a good predictor in its attacks. Defensive Snorlax is enough to deal damage to it, considering what move it uses.

The Hero Without a Name February 5th, 2009 2:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4331596)
I know the Choice Band set looks really bad but it actually works pretty well. Please take a look at the damage calculations. Don't randomly say "You're a noob! Latias can't use physical attacks!" because Togekiss can and it has base 50 Atk. :P

And I suppose nobody ever told you that CBKiss is just like Chain Chomp; you get your surprise value, but after that, it fails HARD.

Anti February 5th, 2009 3:14 PM

Quote:

Outrage will always OHKO the standard 252HP/176 SpD Blissey
252 HP/176 SDef Blissey isn't standard Blissey though. The "standard" set would probably be either 252 Def / 80 SAtk / 176 SDef or 252 Def / 40 SAtk / 216 SDef.

Either way, 651 HP/119 Def Blissey takes from Outrage:

426 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 460 - 543 (70.66% - 83.41%)

Novelty at best. There are WAY better lures (which is all that will be doing), and the fact that it doesn't ensure the kill on Blissey with a STAB CB 120 base power attack is pretty sad.

Shiroi Togekiss is right (although Chain Chomp wasn't too bad...just horribly outclassed by everything else Garchomp carried).

Either way, I'm definitely editing the Counters section to include revenge killers and checks (and I'll throw in Def. CBTar too since it gets the job done though I won't be hyping it by any means). I'll also add in stuff for Latios since it's pretty much the same thing but +power -defenses, obviously.

EDIT: The effect the [email protected] will have on the metagame is probably going to be a better discussion than what counters it since that's becoming well-known very quickly.

. February 5th, 2009 3:19 PM

Quote:

Heracross doesn't count as a counter. It usually gets 2HKO by Dragon Pulse with HP EV's and Latias is faster then it so unless it is a Choice Scarf variant it will usually be slower and also Choice Scarf variants don't invest EV's in HP so Heracross is probably not a counter.
Never called it a counter, and I am referring to Scarf Heracross, which is why I said living a Dragon Pulse is possible, since if Hera comes in on a Dragon Pulse, it can live and OHKO with Megahorn. Specs D-Pulse is an issue, but I am referring to the Calm Minder.

Quote:

Blissey and Snorlax do handle Latias pretty well but there are still ways for her to beat them.
Not Blissey. Not unless she uses some gimmicky ResTalk or Safeguard set.

Quote:

Latias will be threat in OU even without Soul Dew. Sure Blissey and Snorlax can wall it to an extent but it still has huge coverage and 110 Spe, 110 SpAtk and 130 Spd.
Soul Dew was never mentioned to be tested in OU (unless Smogon did, which is ridiculous).

Quote:

Latios is NOT better then Latias. He may have better Attack but he is far less bulky 80/80/110 compared to 80/90/130 is quite a difference. He is better offensively but Latias is bulkier and can support.
Offensively he is much better. Defensively she is much better. I'd choose offense personally, and with people actually running Specs sets on Latias, Latios will probably be preferred over his female counterpart.

Quote:

I know the Choice Band set looks really bad but it actually works pretty well. Please take a look at the damage calculations. Don't randomly say "You're a noob! Latias can't use physical attacks!" because Togekiss can and it has base 50 Atk. :P
Uhhh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiroi Togekiss (Post 4334751)
And I suppose nobody ever told you that CBKiss is just like Chain Chomp; you get your surprise value, but after that, it fails HARD.

Exactly. CB Latias sucks.

Anti:

Quote:

And hey, Scarf Cresselia actually worked alright when I tested it for a short while (you know, before Plat changes and whatnot). Even if something works, if it is outclassed, why use it? I see your point, but Def. CBTar is an "Other Options" counter. I'm not disputing you bringing it up, since it is relevant in the sense that it counters Latios, but it isn't in the sense that Def. CBTar probably shouldn't be used and is turned into a "notable" counter but definitely not the ideal one. Especially since Surf and Draco Meteor still take off a ton of its health in the process and it can't recover off previously-taken damage.
The reason someone would use Special CBTar is that it can take hits as well as hit back hard. The same Tyranitar is used in Ubers to take hits from the likes of Mewtwo and Kyogre (not in the Rain of course).

Quote:

As for CBLax, it's kind of like using a Ground-type that takes 90%-99% from Close Combat...it's technically a counter and even with SR damage it can survive the hit, but it HAS to be a full health switching in or it's almost certain to lose. Even if it doesn't, it is essentially a sacrifice (not to undermine how useful they can be) and is killed. I don't think CB Snorlax is even notable because of how shaky it is.
It's shaky, but it has other uses. I'm mentioning it because it can work, and not be "overcentralizing" or some garbage such as that.

Quote:

that's why people don't say "yeah, Swampert is my SDLuke counter."
Unlike Swampert, Snorlax isn't OHKOed by Latios.

Rhys29 February 5th, 2009 3:40 PM

Latias is acceptable as T-Tar, Snorlax, and sometimes Blissey (only CM sets) counter it. However, I believe Latios would absolutely wreck OU in every way shape and form. This is 'theorymon' of course, but a Specs Boosted 130 base Draco Meteor will take out everything everywhere. It also has Trick and potential Dragon Dance/MixSweeper sets, so it will be rediculous imo. Latias can do pretty dang beastly though. When you are doing your calcs with T-Tar make sure you take Reflect sets into account btw.

Anti February 5th, 2009 3:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4334804)
Anti:

The reason someone would use Special CBTar is that it can take hits as well as hit back hard. The same Tyranitar is used in Ubers to take hits from the likes of Mewtwo and Kyogre (not in the Rain of course).

It's shaky, but it has other uses. I'm mentioning it because it can work, and not be "overcentralizing" or some garbage such as that.

Unlike Swampert, Snorlax isn't OHKOed by Latios.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti
I'm definitely editing the Counters section to include revenge killers and checks (and I'll throw in Def. CBTar too since it gets the job done though I won't be hyping it by any means).

^Let that be the end of it. I'm not including CBLax though since it's simply too shaky. I'll mention Snorlax as a whole though and might throw in a mention of CBLax being an okay check since it works well if it avoids Draco after all. But a counter it is not.

I agree with Rhys for the most part but I refuse to jump on the physical or even mixed Latios bandwagon. Salamence is better suited for that stuff anyway. The DD set is equally "ugh" since Salamence does that infinitely better. Also, I'm not going to call Latios a lock for the Uber tier just yet since Latias was decisively voted to OUs, and while they do different things and everything because of stat differences, they really aren't THAT different (not to imply that the differences don't mean anything because they can mean everything, but just saying).

I think Latios will be deemed Uber but I would not be surprised if it went the other way. I'm kind of eh about it since I don't really OU anymore, and as previously mentioned, a lot of this IS theorymon.

. February 5th, 2009 4:42 PM

I don't see the point of DD Latios honestly. If you're using an inferior offensive set for the sake of "surprising" your enemy, you're better off using something with more Attack. For example, Specs Luke is pretty underrated, and Calm Mind Lucario is also unexpected but packs a nasty punch. DD Latios gets 418 Attack after a Dragon Dance (excluding Life Orb). That's not that impressive, and it still misses a good deal of OHKOs after a Dragon Dance. +1 LO Earthquake doesn't OHKO Max HP Tyranitar, and even with Stealth Rock it only OHKOs 7.69% of the time. Max HP Metagross is never OHKOd; regardless of SR or not.

I guess an argument can be made against Blissey, since Blissey takes 90% minimum from a DD boosted Outrage and is always OHKOed with Stealth Rock present.

Pokedra February 5th, 2009 10:09 PM

I admit that Heracross can come in and OHKO Calm Mind Latias but it is also weak to Latias so it can beat her at times but it also can't at times.

CB Latias isn't the great I admit but it can suprise people. Anti I think the EV's are standard now since Blissey has become a more Special-based waller due to the increasing Special attacker threats.

Latios and Latias are equal. It's generally up to preference. I prefer Latias over Latios for the same reason as I prefer Mesprit over Azelf cause it can take a better then the latter but still has amzing offensive stats.

Anti February 6th, 2009 2:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
CB Latias isn't the great I admit but it can suprise people. Anti I think the EV's are standard now since Blissey has become a more Special-based waller due to the increasing Special attacker threats.

Surprising people doesn't matter. Being effective is what matters. CB Latias isn't effective. It's that simple.

And you're wrong, those are the two most common special wall Blissey EV spreads. Bold Blissey is still common as well (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk) and makes CB Latias even more of a joke. Blissey without Defense EVs is so horrible that even the weakest of physical attackers can 2HKO. I'm 100% sure I'm right on this one, check the usage statistics if you want. But Blissey is almost always running 119 Def or 130 Def (the final stat).

Quote:

Latios and Latias are equal. It's generally up to preference. I prefer Latias over Latios for the same reason as I prefer Mesprit over Azelf cause it can take a better then the latter but still has amzing offensive stats.
That isn't true either >_> Azelf and Mesprit are two totally different Pokemon and both are used for completely different things. If it was simply "personal preference," Mesprit wouldn't be almost completely unseen in OUs while Azelf shines as the number one lead on the ladder. Latios and Latias are similar in many ways, but they're not similar enough that you can call them equal. Otherwise there wouldn't be two separate suspect tests.

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 2:44 AM

Quote:

Surprising people doesn't matter. Being effective is what matters. CB Latias isn't effective. It's that simple.

And you're wrong, those are the two most common special wall Blissey EV spreads. Bold Blissey is still common as well (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk) and makes CB Latias even more of a joke. Blissey without Defense EVs is so horrible that even the weakest of physical attackers can 2HKO. I'm 100% sure I'm right on this one, check the usage statistics if you want. But Blissey is almost always running 119 Def or 130 Def (the final stat).
Yeah but more people are running Special-based walling Blissey. Bold is still common but I read somewhere on a Smogon forum more and more Blissey special-bsed walling variations are being used.

It's still an optional set though, you don't have to use it :).

Quote:

That isn't true either >_> Azelf and Mesprit are two totally different Pokemon and both are used for completely different things. If it was simply "personal preference," Mesprit wouldn't be almost completely unseen in OUs while Azelf shines as the number one lead on the ladder. Latios and Latias are similar in many ways, but they're not similar enough that you can call them equal. Otherwise there wouldn't be two separate suspect tests.
They are different but not completely different. Mesprit functions as a wall or a sweeper. I reckon Mesprit is a bit underated. It doesn't get Nasty Plot or Explosion but it still is very balanced with 4 105 base stats plus CM and Boltbeam. The speed really lets it down.

Latias/Latios are not totally equals but they're very similar with Latias more defensive while Latios is offensive. I think Latios will be dropped to OU, it is a bigger threat then Latias but it isn't as bulky as her so it dies faster.

Archer February 6th, 2009 3:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4334970)
I don't see the point of DD Latios honestly. If you're using an inferior offensive set for the sake of "surprising" your enemy, you're better off using something with more Attack. For example, Specs Luke is pretty underrated, and Calm Mind Lucario is also unexpected but packs a nasty punch. DD Latios gets 418 Attack after a Dragon Dance (excluding Life Orb). That's not that impressive, and it still misses a good deal of OHKOs after a Dragon Dance. +1 LO Earthquake doesn't OHKO Max HP Tyranitar, and even with Stealth Rock it only OHKOs 7.69% of the time. Max HP Metagross is never OHKOd; regardless of SR or not.

I guess an argument can be made against Blissey, since Blissey takes 90% minimum from a DD boosted Outrage and is always OHKOed with Stealth Rock present.

To elaborate more on this, Adamant Salamence has 405 Attack before a Dragon Dance. Neither of which have a STAB on anything that complements Dragon Claw/Outrage, so Salamence outclasses it in that regard. Unless it really complements your team, where Salamence doesn't.... in that case you should still run another set. :D

As with any over-hyped addition to the Metagame, Latias will centralise the metagame until people get used to it; meaning its (Thankyou Anti) activity will drop and people will learn to deal with it better, as they do all threats.

One thing that is interesting about tier changes is that all new additions seem to be offensive threats and this manipulates the Metagame into a more offensive and extreme (as in, you almost have to stick to total Offence or Defence). I'd quite like to see the effect Deoxys-D would have on the Metagame, as the Defensive side of the spectrum has received little new material to work with. Anyway...

Pokedra, see if this get's its point across:
Code:

Azelf      | Move        | Stealth Rock    |    53.0
 Azelf      | Move        | Nasty Plot      |    14.7


Azelf isn't even a primary sweeper, so trying to compare it with Mesprit and Uxie is pointless. Every Pokemon is different to another in some way, so unless one completely outclasses another in every regard, there is a time and a place in which one similar pokemon will excel more than another. Latios and Latias are different, they play differently and have a different movepool. End of story.

The Hero Without a Name February 6th, 2009 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4335905)
Yeah but more people are running Special-based walling Blissey.

All of which ALWAYS have 252 Def EV's.
Quote:

Bold is still common but I read somewhere on a Smogon forum more and more Blissey special-bsed walling variations are being used.
Yeah, because people just don't learn >_> here's some Smogoner's post on that regard:
Quote:

Originally Posted by EeveeTrainer (Post 1703294)
You are all wrong about Blissey. Defense is its most important stat, it should be made to withstand physical hits as much as possible.

714/130 Blissey forever. Maximize its ability to take physical hits. If you were to move its HP EV's into Special Defense (652/369), you'd only gain a little bit more Special survivability (versus 714/306) at the cost of Physical survivability. With all the mixed attackers out there, you need to make Blissey as able as possible to take the random Brick Breaks and such.

wtf? and Jumpman backed him up on that post, leaving me beaten -.-

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 12:15 PM

Quote:

One thing that is interesting about tier changes is that all new additions seem to be offensive threats and this manipulates the Metagame into a more offensive and extreme (as in, you almost have to stick to total Offence or Defence). I'd quite like to see the effect Deoxys-D would have on the Metagame, as the Defensive side of the spectrum has received little new material to work with. Anyway...

Pokedra, see if this get's its point across:
Code:

Azelf      | Move        | Stealth Rock    |    53.0
 Azelf      | Move        | Nasty Plot      |    14.7


Azelf isn't even a primary sweeper, so trying to compare it with Mesprit and Uxie is pointless. Every Pokemon is different to another in some way, so unless one completely outclasses another in every regard, there is a time and a place in which one similar pokemon will excel more than another. Latios and Latias are different, they play differently and have a different movepool. End of story.
Whoops I forgot about the Anti-lead with Stealth Rock. Let's just say Azelf is good at both. It's fast so it can lay down Stealth Rock but it stats kinda point to a sweeper 125/125/115.

Quote:

All of which ALWAYS have 252 Def EV's.
Not ALWAYS,it is still very, very common but apparently Special-walling based Blissey's are increasing in usage.

To prove my point go check the statistics of Smogon. Blissey runs Bold 50.7% of the time and Calm 43.2%. People run 150-200 SpD EV's around 20% of the time while and most people run 252 Def EV's 90% of the time. Yes, Bold Blissey is still FAR more popular but I've never really seen many Special-based walling Blissey's being used.

We're going off topic let's keep discussing Latias.

Anti February 6th, 2009 12:38 PM

Okay seriously, enough of this CB Latias nonsense. I don't care what EV spread you're running on Blissey or on Latias, CB Latias is NOT a notable set. Neither is Calm 252 HP/216 SDef Blissey, but that's another story. I know you don't have to use it, but you can say that about any novelty set, but that doesn't make it notable, ever. Surprise value doesn't either, especially since Blissey actually survives your CBed STAB 120 base power hit (which is absolutely pathetic). I'm not saying it's unusable, I'm saying it's not notable in this thread or in any serious discussion or analysis about [email protected] It's not going in and it never will be, end of story.

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 1:23 PM

It's not a great set and we should stop discussing it. Sorry Anti :(

Could you edit the counters and put Tyranitar as a counter because it fares pretty well due to Crunch and Sand Stream boost? I've never used Tyranitar much so could you do a him in the counters?

. February 6th, 2009 4:15 PM

Quote:

To elaborate more on this, Adamant Salamence has 405 Attack before a Dragon Dance. Neither of which have a STAB on anything that complements Dragon Claw/Outrage, so Salamence outclasses it in that regard. Unless it really complements your team, where Salamence doesn't.... in that case you should still run another set.
I love it when people read. Who brings a Blissey into a Salamence? Unless you know for certain it's a SpecsMence (impossible without luck). It's suprise factor, although it still sucks outside of that.

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 6:27 PM

I'll update the Counters section soon and I suppose I'll the CB set from Latias. Please everyone stick to discussing Latias not Salamence and Blissey.

. February 6th, 2009 6:48 PM

I really advise against Choice Bander, honestly, it's just too weak. If you're going to mention it, at least Trick a slash so it can screw up things like Skarmory, Forretress, and other physical (lol) walls. Also is a nice Blissey screw-upper without resorting to Outrage.

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 9:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4338077)
I really advise against Choice Bander, honestly, it's just too weak. If you're going to mention it, at least Trick a slash so it can screw up things like Skarmory, Forretress, and other physical (lol) walls. Also is a nice Blissey screw-upper without resorting to Outrage.

Good idea! I'll add it, the set is pretty bad but it can kinda work. Don't bite my head off, the CM sets and Choice Specs are WAY better.

Anti February 7th, 2009 6:24 AM

I deleted CB Latias from the first post. No, Trick doesn't suddenly make it notable either. First of all, physical walls actually use physical attacks, so if you want to screw them up, Tricking them a Choice Band of all things is probably really stupid. TrickScarf is much better for messing up walls, since all of them except Gliscor (lol) are really slow. Not only that, but TrickScarf would be taking advantage of one of the most powerful Draco Meteors in OUs and Latias's awesome Special Attack.

And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty. In a discussion that is geared towards what impact Latias will have on the metagame and what the tier status of both of them should be, novelty sets are irrelevant. Unless you can tell me that CB Latias can work without the surprise factor or whatever you want to call it and be an effective set, this matter is closed.

Lila February 7th, 2009 9:45 AM

When I first found out that Latias was taken off of the uber list and listed as OU, I thought it was going to be a disaster because of her very high stats. I'm not the best at pokemon, but I was playing on Shoddy the other day and encountered a few Latias - they weren't easy to beat or anything like that, but I certainly didn't have as much trouble with them as I thought I would.

But, Latios is a different story. I haven't battled him lately since he's still being tested, but I think (and hope) that he'll stay as an uber. The reason why Latias isn't too powerful for OU is because, while she has high defenses, her attack stats aren't the greatest, and most people seem to use her very defensively so I haven't had to worry about her 110 Sp. Atk. I also find that she has enough weaknesses to make her quite easy to KO, as long as you're careful.

I think Latios would be too physically powerful to be used effectively in OU, but chances are that he'll be put in OU with Latias, anyway. : / I already encounter people in the OU category of Shoddy who use Giratina and Darkrai anyway, so maybe it won't make such a huge difference. :P

The Hero Without a Name February 7th, 2009 10:00 AM

Latios... physically powerful? His ATK is pretty mediocre =/

Lila February 7th, 2009 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiroi Togekiss (Post 4339664)
Latios... physically powerful? His ATK is pretty mediocre =/

I meant his special attack, sorry. XD I'm not used to discussing pokemon, so I get some of the terms mixed up. What I meant is that in a strict offensive way, he's much more dangerous than Latias and can cause many more problems. Latias has decent special attack as well, but most people I've battled used her more defensively, so I didn't have to worry about that too much - with Latios, most people will play with him offensively, which makes him much bigger nuisance, in my opinion.

Pokedra February 7th, 2009 1:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4339022)
I deleted CB Latias from the first post. No, Trick doesn't suddenly make it notable either. First of all, physical walls actually use physical attacks, so if you want to screw them up, Tricking them a Choice Band of all things is probably really stupid. TrickScarf is much better for messing up walls, since all of them except Gliscor (lol) are really slow. Not only that, but TrickScarf would be taking advantage of one of the most powerful Draco Meteors in OUs and Latias's awesome Special Attack.

And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty. In a discussion that is geared towards what impact Latias will have on the metagame and what the tier status of both of them should be, novelty sets are irrelevant. Unless you can tell me that CB Latias can work without the surprise factor or whatever you want to call it and be an effective set, this matter is closed.

Alright Anti, I was going to take it off anyway but I forgot but do you find the other sets satisfoactory?

Samson February 7th, 2009 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4339022)
And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty.

ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.

Archer February 8th, 2009 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 4341928)
ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.

What you're saying is valid to a degree, although in this case, Salamence is even more versatile and can trick the opponent by pretending to use a Specs set, but using a DD one. Considering that after a DD, it has about the same Atk as +0 Mence, but can't switch out then, for fear of losing the boost. I just don't see how it acheives anything.

Samson February 8th, 2009 12:55 AM

i wasn't actually speaking about certain sets, i was just saying that you can't go rule out what you assume to be novelty when common usage is just as much as an assumption of the current metagame.

but since you brought it up, i think the main idea for Latios as a DDer is that it isn't as vulnerable to srock and ice attacks. definitely not as bulky as salamence who has intimidate to boot, but damage reducing berries are just as viable with the perfect amount of hp investment to allow for a game changing sweep. sure, it's ballsy, but the metagame is what it is.

Archer February 8th, 2009 1:00 AM

It's worth a mention that with a Yache Berry, Salamence effectively has better typing. It can maintain a better attack stat at the same time.

Anti February 8th, 2009 8:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 4341928)
ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.

But CB Latias isn't even killing what it's meant to kill. It can only do serious damage to weak Pokemon that don't resist Outrage. Sure it beats Blissey in two hits, but you are taking a huge risk in locking yourself into Outrage and hoping that it is in fact Blissey or Snorlax that is coming in when it is just as likely that it's Metagross or Bronzong coming in to absorb Draco Meteor. Besides, you may need Latias for something before it can lure in Blissey, usually something like revenge killing where you are forced to give away the "Surprise." It's way too shaky.

I agree that surprise value can be a reason to use a moveset, but it has to be of some value after the initial surprise is revealed or you're basically playing down one Pokemon. I was referring to "surprise" Pokemon that aren't useful after the surprise is up or those whose surprise isn't exactly useful, and CB Latias fits into both of those categories (seeing that it actually leaves Blissey with health to spare and can let it come in on Swampert's Ice Beam or something like that and heal up later). Besides, TrickScarf is crippling Blissey while letting Latias use attacks that do more damage.

Pokedra February 9th, 2009 9:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4342634)
But CB Latias isn't even killing what it's meant to kill. It can only do serious damage to weak Pokemon that don't resist Outrage. Sure it beats Blissey in two hits, but you are taking a huge risk in locking yourself into Outrage and hoping that it is in fact Blissey or Snorlax that is coming in when it is just as likely that it's Metagross or Bronzong coming in to absorb Draco Meteor. Besides, you may need Latias for something before it can lure in Blissey, usually something like revenge killing where you are forced to give away the "Surprise." It's way too shaky.

I agree that surprise value can be a reason to use a moveset, but it has to be of some value after the initial surprise is revealed or you're basically playing down one Pokemon. I was referring to "surprise" Pokemon that aren't useful after the surprise is up or those whose surprise isn't exactly useful, and CB Latias fits into both of those categories (seeing that it actually leaves Blissey with health to spare and can let it come in on Swampert's Ice Beam or something like that and heal up later). Besides, TrickScarf is crippling Blissey while letting Latias use attacks that do more damage.

The CB set is gone. There's no need for more discussion on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4341981)
It's worth a mention that with a Yache Berry, Salamence effectively has better typing. It can maintain a better attack stat at the same time.

This is a Latias discussion not a Salamence one.

Anti February 10th, 2009 5:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
The CB set is gone. There's no need for more discussion on it.

I was responding to something about "surprise" sets in general which is actually pretty relevant seeing how people want to throw Flame Orb or a Choice Band on this thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
This is a Latias discussion not a Salamence one.

Leave the moderating to me. His point is relevant because there is no point to use DD Latios if Salamence does it better, which is true and is pretty much the reason not to use DD Latios (that and DD Latios isn't very good anyway).

Now how about instead of discussing sets that are done better by everything else, we talk about what isn't? The Choice Specs and defensive Calm Mind sets come to mind.

Pokedra February 11th, 2009 12:01 AM

Sorry Anti. I heard someone say that they will test Latias w/th the Soul Dew in OU? Is that true?

Archer February 14th, 2009 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4349324)
Sorry Anti. I heard someone say that they will test Latias w/th the Soul Dew in OU? Is that true?

That is just over-powered. Latios without Soul Dew is the only thing currently being tested, but Soul Dew is a thought on a few people's minds at the moment. It depends on the Suspect "Order of Operations".

. February 15th, 2009 12:18 AM

I'm afraid of Latios's placement in OU. Using my Suspect team, I've noticed how he breaks through things usually supposed to counter him. Specs Draco Meteor is monstrous, 2HKOing even Steel types with relative ease. Grass Knot destroys Tyranitar and hits a lot of Water types harder than Draco Meteor according to their weight. I've seen a few Dual Screen users, so it seems that some people prefer to use Latios over Latias even in support sets sheerly for his higher Special Attack.

Pokedra February 15th, 2009 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4353199)
I'm afraid of Latios's placement in OU. Using my Suspect team, I've noticed how he breaks through things usually supposed to counter him. Specs Draco Meteor is monstrous, 2HKOing even Steel types with relative ease. Grass Knot destroys Tyranitar and hits a lot of Water types harder than Draco Meteor according to their weight. I've seen a few Dual Screen users, so it seems that some people prefer to use Latios over Latias even in support sets sheerly for his higher Special Attack.

I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.

Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.

Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.

Anti February 15th, 2009 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.

Irrelevant. Tyranitar can't switch in and beat Latios, period. Here is Timid Choice specs Latios' Surf on standard Choice Band Tyranitar:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (95 Base Power): 208 - 246 (54.03% - 63.90%)

It's always a 2HKO regardless of SR. Grass Knot does even more though I really don't know why you would use it. Draco Meteor will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock down. Not a counter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.

CBGross is almost never seen (so little that Choice Band isn't even mentioned under Metagross in this month's usage statistics). Neither of them have any business staying in to get smashed by Tyranitar either if they're setting up screens. Snorlax is another example of something they don't have any business messing with. The bulk helps, but so does extra special attack. You can't forget that what switches in on Latios might also be different (less threatening stuff usually since only special walls can take its hits). You can't just declare one better since "better" completely relies on the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.

Isn't that kind of a given though? Nobody is arguing against that.

. February 15th, 2009 12:55 AM

Quote:

I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.
I know that, however, the majority of TTar I see are the standard 176 HP / 0 SpD versions. Even bulkier versions get hurt badly by Grass Knot.

Quote:

Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.
Um...thanks for telling me something I already know?

Quote:

Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.
My bet is Latios will be a sweeper and Latias will be a support Pokemon. Yes.

Sebastien Loeb February 15th, 2009 1:45 AM

For the chronicle, if you don't like the actual metagame another simulator he has gone out for hardly Diamond & Pearl (and therefore I decidedly find opportune to modify the name of the section Shoddy Lounge) where the dictatorship of Smogon there is not to create problems on the metagame, says this Latias he can quietly be stopped by a defensive Tyranitar with Pursuit, and if he is good battler also wanting from a Bulky Scizor (or a Scizor with many HP and Special Defense) Swords Dance is used while Latias uses Calm Mind and immediately later him him abbate with Bullet Punch, totally talked different as it regards Latios, it is a real it unswathes team, in the Suspect Ladder it is practically impossible to be stopped, even Pokémon as Skymin or Garchomp were less dangerous, therefore it has to stay uber or otherwise goodbye Shoddy.

Pokedra February 18th, 2009 12:30 AM

Latios is a huge threat I agree Sebestian but Latios will probably be OU as well. We'll see.

Syaoran February 18th, 2009 2:59 AM

Latios will not be OU imo. It is far too deadly, OU is enough having 2 pokemon with extremely overpowered (and yeah, it is over an overpowered move) Draco Meteor - Latias and Salamence. Even steels don't enjoy switching in, as some of them (like Metagross), with 252 HP EVs, get stripped over 50% damage. 130 base SAtk Draco Meteor is really pushing it, backed up by incredible speed and no double weaknesses to exploit.

dark_seeker February 18th, 2009 4:35 AM

Quote:

Latios will not be OU imo. It is far too deadly, OU is enough having 2 pokemon with extremely overpowered (and yeah, it is over an overpowered move) Draco Meteor - Latias and Salamence. Even steels don't enjoy switching in, as some of them (like Metagross), with 252 HP EVs, get stripped over 50% damage. 130 base SAtk Draco Meteor is really pushing it, backed up by incredible speed and no double weaknesses to exploit.
agreed on the point that it is deadly but it gets revenge killed pretty decently by a number of pokes and it would not have its signature item soul dew so i think there will be chances that it may be put into ou.and the fact that its got not one 4x and 1 2x but a no. of weaknesses so wide range of pokes can hit it hard.
Question:lucario was brought up at one point..can choice scarf dark pulse ko latios?(mild/216 sp.att)

Syaoran February 18th, 2009 4:56 AM

How exactly is it revenge killed so easily >>;

Shen February 18th, 2009 7:05 AM

Latios will not be moved down to OU. Latias was moved down due to the way the metagame works now. It's all about hitting hard and fast and the use of walls have greatly diminished. Latios remains a very potent sweeper in the Uber environment from what I can tell, whereas Latias doesn't have the sheer stats to really compete. Correct me if I'm wrong, I very rarely Uber.

dark_seeker February 18th, 2009 8:12 AM

i have been playing ubers latly and i have'nt seen to many latios as there other pokes in that enviorment which hit equally hard if not harder.latias is used but only defesive sets as latias doesn't have the sheer power to break uber walls.

EDIT : Scarf mixLucario(Mild,216 sp.att)cannot revenge kill latios 6 hp/0 sp.def.As it only manages definite 2ko.52.98-62.88 or some such.

Quote:

How exactly is it revenge killed so easily >>;
I did not say easily but i said effectivly.i mean weavile,tyranitar and scarf heracross.Revenge kill it with pursuit/megahorn.im sure there are other effective revenge killers out there who can take on latios.
Revenge killing is the easy part.The hard part is choosing which pokemon is going to go so you can get a free switch.there's were the point about counters come which i dont see to many of speaking of,can cressilia counter and still have enough health to moonlight it of ?

. February 18th, 2009 9:03 AM

I think the reason people rarely use Latios is because something like Palkia is usually a lot more threatening. Plus there are many things to incapitate it, and it doesn't switch in as easily. Let's not forget the one and only Blissey stops it.

Latios is still good in Ubers, albeit not fantastic, like it is in OU.

Anti February 18th, 2009 1:14 PM

Um who cares if you can revenge kill a Choice Specs Pokemon lol ? Unless it's Pursuiting Latios (which is really its only big weakness), it's pretty much irrelevant. I mean how much sense does "Hey, let's sacrifice something to force Latios to switch out!" make? ._. for the Calm Minder that argument is a lot better, but for something that is hit and run anyways I don't see how that's an argument against Specs Latios at all.

Picking our revenge killers to beat it isn't an intelligent way to go about it - I assure you, I could round up a few solid revenge killers for a lot of Uber Pokemon. "Revenge kill Pokemon X" is such stupid theorymon anyway seeing as they just switch. This isn't Garchomp where it's locked into Outrage and loses a Swords Dance boost when it switches out...this is a simple Choice Specs Pokemon. If revenge killing is the best argument against Specs Latios then I will fight to the end for it to be banned.

That being said, I haven't played suspect so I wouldn't know if it's Uber or not. I just wanted to mention how useless revenge killing a Choice user is unless they can't escape.

Shen February 18th, 2009 3:05 PM

If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

. February 18th, 2009 3:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shen (Post 4363830)
If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

Why?

If it can be dealt with, it can be dealt with. Latios can be dealt with by the best revenge killing move in the game (Pursuit). It's not like the "X switches out of Y's attempt to revenge kill".

Syaoran February 18th, 2009 4:39 PM

Because losing a pokemon in the process defeats the purpose.

. February 18th, 2009 4:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syaoran (Post 4364120)
Because losing a pokemon in the process defeats the purpose.

So every Pokemon without a true counter is uber? Let's get rid of Dragonite and Salamence, why don't we?

Syaoran February 18th, 2009 5:23 PM

You see, that's only 1 thing. Many reasons are factored when deciding if a pokemon is uber or not. In the case of Latios, 130 Draco Meteor is just too darn powerful. Salamence's Draco Meteor can be handled to an extent, and the SR weakness doesn't help it either. Latios doesn't have quad weaknesses, no SR weakness, and great speed to work with.

You don't necessarily "lose" a pokemon when switching in Salamence (or Dragonite lol). To make steel pokemon more "capable" of taking on Latios with SDef EVs, the entire OU metagame will start resembling the Uber metagame.

. February 18th, 2009 5:34 PM

Quote:

You see, that's only 1 thing. Many reasons are factored when deciding if a pokemon is uber or not. In the case of Latios, 130 Draco Meteor is just too darn powerful. Salamence's Draco Meteor can be handled to an extent, and the SR weakness doesn't help it either. Latios doesn't have quad weaknesses, no SR weakness, and great speed to work with.
This I can understand. Latios's Draco Meteor is pretty damn powerful.

Quote:

You don't necessarily "lose" a pokemon when switching in Salamence (or Dragonite lol). To make steel pokemon more "capable" of taking on Latios with SDef EVs, the entire OU metagame will start resembling the Uber metagame.
Salamence sometimes DOES require sacrificing a Pokemon in order to kill it, but I can understand your point.

Lila February 18th, 2009 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4364273)



Salamence sometimes DOES require sacrificing a Pokemon in order to kill it, but I can understand your point.

Any pokemon can require another pokemon being sacrificed to kill it, so the point is moot. The difference is that with Latios, you almost always have to sacrifice a pokemon to kill it. The only times I haven't had to sacrifice a pokemon is when my opponent was being dumb, and even then I found the pokemon to be so strong that even a stupid person could abuse it easily. -_-;

Latios one-shots pretty much any pokemon, even steels with high special defense, and if he doesn't one-shot them he'll get them down to low health and will be able to finish them off the next turn. As said above, Latios doesn't have a SR weakness, nor a double weakness. Also, there aren't priority moves that can easily take him down, like Ice Shard. I can deal with Latias in OU, but Latios? It seems like it's pushing it a little bit, and too many people are saying "oh Latias and Latios are like the same so if one goes down to OU both should". : /

Pokedra February 18th, 2009 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shen (Post 4362414)
Latios will not be moved down to OU. Latias was moved down due to the way the metagame works now. It's all about hitting hard and fast and the use of walls have greatly diminished. Latios remains a very potent sweeper in the Uber environment from what I can tell, whereas Latias doesn't have the sheer stats to really compete. Correct me if I'm wrong, I very rarely Uber.

No offense but that's wrong. Latias in Ubers was more popular then Latias or so Smogon says. Latias can function as a tank but in Ubers it took its far better then Latios and could KO something. Most importantly it can actually take a hit or two. According to statistics Latias is used more then double Latios and even Tyranitar and Scizor is used more then Latios. 194 Defense can't cope with the Uber metagame so it will be downgraded.

130 SpAtk is fearsome but it's easily revenge killed. Weavile or Dugtrio can used Pursuit/Sucker Punch repesctively to land a huge hit on him. Even when he's full health Pokemon with Sucker Punch can land a huge hit on him. 305 HP /194 Def is even less bulky then Salamence who has Intimidate to cope with his wose Def and higher HP.

Here's some damage calcs for Latios with 0HP/0 Def/0 SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 76.41% - 89.70%(Sometimes OHKO w/Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 87.71% - 102.99%(OHKO with Stealth Rock 100%)
Jolly CB 252 Atk Weavile w/ Night Slash - 130.90% - 154.15%(OHKO no matter what)
Timid CS 252 SpAtk Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 56.48% - 66.45%(2HKO no matter what)

Now some for Latias with 0HP/0 Def/0SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 69.44% - 81.73%(Never OHKO even w/ Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 79.73% - 93.69%(W/ Stealth Rock never OHKO'ed w/ Stealth Rock OHKO is possible)
Timid 252 SpAtk CS Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 48.84% - 57.48%(Sometimes 3HKO or 2HKO)

Latias's extra bulk helps. She can survive Dugtrio and OHKO back with Ice Beam and since these EV spreads are for Choice Specs Latias can easily OHKO Toxicroak and Jolteon will fall to Choice Specs Dragon Pulse in 1-2 hits. Look none of these Pokemon are counter so don't bite my head off but seriously Latios isn't that scary. These Pokemon make good revenge killers against Latios and he can't really beat them as usually he will be damaged when they come in.

And sheer stats? No offense what are Latios's sheer stats? Base 110 Spe? Well Latias has that too. Base 80 Defense? Don't make me laugh. Base 90 Atk? Pah Salamence runs a DD set much better. Base 110 Sp Def? Pretty good but he never invests in it so it sits at a meh 255 SpDef which is pretty nice but not sheer. Base 130 SpAtk is his only sheer stat which is great, no one can deny that.

I'm not saying Latias is better or Latios is better. They are both great Pokemon but I think some people are overestimating Latios. I've faced a few, he wrecks havoc with Draco Meteor but he is beatable and personally I like Latias better.

Why? Maybe I'm crazy but 110SpAtk is good enough for me and I like the fact even without EV's she still has 216 Def/295 SpD which is pretty bulky.

Anti February 19th, 2009 2:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
No offense but that's wrong. Latias in Ubers was more popular then Latias or so Smogon says. Latias can function as a tank but in Ubers it took its far better then Latios and could KO something. Most importantly it can actually take a hit or two. According to statistics Latias is used more then double Latios and even Tyranitar and Scizor is used more then Latios. 194 Defense can't cope with the Uber metagame so it will be downgraded.

Uber metagame is irrelevant in this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
130 SpAtk is fearsome but it's easily revenge killed. Weavile or Dugtrio can used Pursuit/Sucker Punch repesctively to land a huge hit on him. Even when he's full health Pokemon with Sucker Punch can land a huge hit on him. 305 HP /194 Def is even less bulky then Salamence who has Intimidate to cope with his wose Def and higher HP.

Here's some damage calcs for Latios with 0HP/0 Def/0 SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 76.41% - 89.70%(Sometimes OHKO w/Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 87.71% - 102.99%(OHKO with Stealth Rock 100%)
Jolly CB 252 Atk Weavile w/ Night Slash - 130.90% - 154.15%(OHKO no matter what)
Timid CS 252 SpAtk Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 56.48% - 66.45%(2HKO no matter what)

Now some for Latias with 0HP/0 Def/0SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 69.44% - 81.73%(Never OHKO even w/ Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 79.73% - 93.69%(W/ Stealth Rock never OHKO'ed w/ Stealth Rock OHKO is possible)
Timid 252 SpAtk CS Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 48.84% - 57.48%(Sometimes 3HKO or 2HKO)

Latias's extra bulk helps. She can survive Dugtrio and OHKO back with Ice Beam and since these EV spreads are for Choice Specs Latias can easily OHKO Toxicroak and Jolteon will fall to Choice Specs Dragon Pulse in 1-2 hits. Look none of these Pokemon are counter so don't bite my head off but seriously Latios isn't that scary. These Pokemon make good revenge killers against Latios and he can't really beat them as usually he will be damaged when they come in.

How are those calculations even close to relevant? Weavile beating both [email protected] is a foregone conclusion (assuming it's on the revenge lol). I mean, I guess if they're both at half health Jolteon matters, but it will probably just Shadow Ball and 2HKO BOTH of them anyway (not like anybody in their right mind switches Jolteon in to take out the [email protected] whether it's on the revenge or not). And really, if somebody brings in Dugtrio to deal with Latios, it's either using Pursuit or Sucker Punch, the latter much more likely. It can just escape. Toxicroak is even more obvious since it's slower, and bringing that in to revenge is a dead giveaway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
And sheer stats? No offense what are Latios's sheer stats? Base 110 Spe? Well Latias has that too. Base 80 Defense? Don't make me laugh. Base 90 Atk? Pah Salamence runs a DD set much better. Base 110 Sp Def? Pretty good but he never invests in it so it sits at a meh 255 SpDef which is pretty nice but not sheer. Base 130 SpAtk is his only sheer stat which is great, no one can deny that.

I'm not saying Latias is better or Latios is better.[/B] They are both great Pokemon but I think some people are overestimating Latios. I've faced a few, he wrecks havoc with Draco Meteor but he is beatable and personally I like Latias better.

Why? Maybe I'm crazy but 110SpAtk is good enough for me and I like the fact even without EV's she still has 216 Def/295 SpD which is pretty bulky.

Comparing the two isn't getting anybody anywhere, especially since your comparison is pretty much an opinion hardly backed up by anything besides stats? Stats don't prove a thing. But I must say, you call Latias' base 90 bulky but Latios' base 90 a joke. There's hardly a difference. The SDef is a larger difference but both still take special hits well so I don't see any reason to use Specs Latias over Specs Latios when it is almost completely outclassed. They're both suitable for different things since they're so similar. If either of them is better, it's probably Latios since it's way more controversial and powerful for that matter. But seriously, what does comparing the two do exactly? Outline differences we already know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shen (Post 4363830)
If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

So you want Dragon and Salamence banned because they can both slap on a Choice Band and 2HKO literally the entire OU tier?

The counter mentality is so early DP I can't even begin to describe it. Countering isn't a bad strategy or anything (quite the opposite, actually), but if you think that should determine tier status completely, I want your Salamence ban thread please. And what happens if a Pokemon has counters? Does that make it OU? Hey guys, I countered Deoxys-A with my special defensive Metagross! Definitely OU !!!!!! By the way, Latios can't do a thing to Blissey besides maybe Trick it. But that gets rid of its Choice Specs and all of a sudden Draco Meteor doesn't hurt so bad. Just saying.

I would totally fish out the new definition of Uber everyone is going by now but I can tell you that "omg no counters" is not one of them. "It has counters" is an equally bad way of going about things. If Blassey gets Sticky Hold (as in it can't be Tricked) and it has its 100% counter, that doesn't make Latios any more Uber or less Uber (well, perhaps by a small amount, but not so much that it would change its tier status).

Pokedra February 20th, 2009 3:10 AM

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Uber metagame is irrelevant in this discussion.
Some people were saying that Latios is common in Ubers when Latias is used more then 3x he is. Even Scizor and Tyranitar get more usage.


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How are those calculations even close to relevant? Weavile beating both [email protected] is a foregone conclusion (assuming it's on the revenge lol). I mean, I guess if they're both at half health Jolteon matters, but it will probably just Shadow Ball and 2HKO BOTH of them anyway (not like anybody in their right mind switches Jolteon in to take out the [email protected] whether it's on the revenge or not). And really, if somebody brings in Dugtrio to deal with Latios, it's either using Pursuit or Sucker Punch, the latter much more likely. It can just escape. Toxicroak is even more obvious since it's slower, and bringing that in to revenge is a dead giveaway.
My point is if Latios has to actually deal with one of those Pokemon he will get killed wheres Latias can stand up to them(just barely) and OHKO them usually.



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Comparing the two isn't getting anybody anywhere, especially since your comparison is pretty much an opinion hardly backed up by anything besides stats? Stats don't prove a thing. But I must say, you call Latias' base 90 bulky but Latios' base 90 a joke. There's hardly a difference. The SDef is a larger difference but both still take special hits well so I don't see any reason to use Specs Latias over Specs Latios when it is almost completely outclassed. They're both suitable for different things since they're so similar. If either of them is better, it's probably Latios since it's way more controversial and powerful for that matter. But seriously, what does comparing the two do exactly? Outline differences we already know?
It is nearly always outclasseed when using Specs but Latias has less trouble dealing with physical hits as she doesn't usually get OHKO'ed by a non-STAB super-effective attack like Pursuit or Sucker Punch. 110SpAtk is still fearsome you can't deny that. Also 130 doesn't totally outclass 110.

The Hero Without a Name February 20th, 2009 7:08 AM

Really? Latios can go Timid, and yet he still gets 359 SpA, 9 points higher than Modest Latias. (Thanks Vance!)

. February 20th, 2009 11:02 AM

I agree with Togekiss, Latios outclasses Latias and Salamence as Specs users, although Salamence does have Fire Blast, it gets outclassed in every other way. Simply put, Latios can do one of the following (all are assuming Modest Salamence):

Go Modest, have 394 SpA (591 after Specs), have 66 more Special Attack than Salamence, and be 20 points faster.

Go Timid, have 359 SpA (539 after Specs), have 14 more Special Attack than Salamence, and be 51 points faster.

Even Latias gets outclassed. Latias commonly runs Timid, meaning Latios can run the same exact nature, be the same Speed, but have only 478 Special Attack after Specs. Latios will have 539 Special Attack, a very, very noticable difference.

Please stop reccomending Latias for Specs just because "she's bulkier". She's not THAT much bulkier on the physical side (80 / 90 isn't that much better than 80 / 80). On the special side, they're both very good at taking hits, but the point of a Specs set is to hit and destroy, not necessarily tank.

Anti February 20th, 2009 11:28 AM

Vance pretty much said it all but I'll throw in my two cents as well =/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
Some people were saying that Latios is common in Ubers when Latias is used more then 3x he is. Even Scizor and Tyranitar get more usage.

Yeah I know, I'm saying that nobody cares because it's not relevant. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
My point is if Latios has to actually deal with one of those Pokemon he will get killed wheres Latias can stand up to them(just barely) and OHKO them usually.

Assuming it's at full health, which is a completely unrealistic view given how common SS and SR are (the latter being on virtually every team). All of that crap is theorymon and you know it (and if you don't, this isn't the discussion for you). We all know Latias is bulkier, we just don't care. If you really value "taking hits better" from a few select threats in the OU metagame over a huge power difference on an offensive Pokemon, I don't know what to tell you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
It is nearly always outclasseed when using Specs but Latias has less trouble dealing with physical hits as she doesn't usually get OHKO'ed by a non-STAB super-effective attack like Pursuit or Sucker Punch. 110SpAtk is still fearsome you can't deny that. Also 130 doesn't totally outclass 110.

Um, 130 does completely outclass 110, because it's always higher? I mean it's really obvious. Yeah both OHKO Hippotatas, but the difference against stuff that could potentially take a few hits is HUGE. If you prefer Latias that's fine, but don't even think about trying to argue it's better because "110 is still pretty good". 130 is still way better and there is no way to get around that. Pursuit is crushing both of them regardless and so is Sucker Punch (but that's only if you can't predict since it's insanely predictable).

All this thread has been is a bunch of useless arguments when we still haven't even scratched the surface of what effect they're actually going to have. This is not a Latios vs. Latias debate and it's never going to be, and any post that focuses on that will be infracted right away for off-topic posting. I've been pretty loose about what can be discussed in this thread but this is pretty ridiculous. Let's discuss relevant things, like Latias' or Latios' impact on the metagame and how patterns are shifted (like your typical Steels + Dragons teams). It doesn't have to be that necessarily but something with some kind of relevance to the OU metagame and/or their tier status. If this withers away any further I'm closing this thread.

Pokedra February 20th, 2009 1:45 PM

Okay we'll stop arguing. Vance, I never said Latias was better then Latios in the Specs set just less vunerable to priotiy moves. No more arguing from me.

I'm going to add some more sets for Latias like the Dual Screen and Psycho Shift sets from Smogon.


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