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Latias is acceptable as T-Tar, Snorlax, and sometimes Blissey (only CM sets) counter it. However, I believe Latios would absolutely wreck OU in every way shape and form. This is 'theorymon' of course, but a Specs Boosted 130 base Draco Meteor will take out everything everywhere. It also has Trick and potential Dragon Dance/MixSweeper sets, so it will be rediculous imo. Latias can do pretty dang beastly though. When you are doing your calcs with T-Tar make sure you take Reflect sets into account btw.
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I agree with Rhys for the most part but I refuse to jump on the physical or even mixed Latios bandwagon. Salamence is better suited for that stuff anyway. The DD set is equally "ugh" since Salamence does that infinitely better. Also, I'm not going to call Latios a lock for the Uber tier just yet since Latias was decisively voted to OUs, and while they do different things and everything because of stat differences, they really aren't THAT different (not to imply that the differences don't mean anything because they can mean everything, but just saying). I think Latios will be deemed Uber but I would not be surprised if it went the other way. I'm kind of eh about it since I don't really OU anymore, and as previously mentioned, a lot of this IS theorymon. |
I don't see the point of DD Latios honestly. If you're using an inferior offensive set for the sake of "surprising" your enemy, you're better off using something with more Attack. For example, Specs Luke is pretty underrated, and Calm Mind Lucario is also unexpected but packs a nasty punch. DD Latios gets 418 Attack after a Dragon Dance (excluding Life Orb). That's not that impressive, and it still misses a good deal of OHKOs after a Dragon Dance. +1 LO Earthquake doesn't OHKO Max HP Tyranitar, and even with Stealth Rock it only OHKOs 7.69% of the time. Max HP Metagross is never OHKOd; regardless of SR or not.
I guess an argument can be made against Blissey, since Blissey takes 90% minimum from a DD boosted Outrage and is always OHKOed with Stealth Rock present. |
I admit that Heracross can come in and OHKO Calm Mind Latias but it is also weak to Latias so it can beat her at times but it also can't at times.
CB Latias isn't the great I admit but it can suprise people. Anti I think the EV's are standard now since Blissey has become a more Special-based waller due to the increasing Special attacker threats. Latios and Latias are equal. It's generally up to preference. I prefer Latias over Latios for the same reason as I prefer Mesprit over Azelf cause it can take a better then the latter but still has amzing offensive stats. |
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And you're wrong, those are the two most common special wall Blissey EV spreads. Bold Blissey is still common as well (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk) and makes CB Latias even more of a joke. Blissey without Defense EVs is so horrible that even the weakest of physical attackers can 2HKO. I'm 100% sure I'm right on this one, check the usage statistics if you want. But Blissey is almost always running 119 Def or 130 Def (the final stat). Quote:
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It's still an optional set though, you don't have to use it :). Quote:
Latias/Latios are not totally equals but they're very similar with Latias more defensive while Latios is offensive. I think Latios will be dropped to OU, it is a bigger threat then Latias but it isn't as bulky as her so it dies faster. |
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As with any over-hyped addition to the Metagame, Latias will centralise the metagame until people get used to it; meaning its (Thankyou Anti) activity will drop and people will learn to deal with it better, as they do all threats. One thing that is interesting about tier changes is that all new additions seem to be offensive threats and this manipulates the Metagame into a more offensive and extreme (as in, you almost have to stick to total Offence or Defence). I'd quite like to see the effect Deoxys-D would have on the Metagame, as the Defensive side of the spectrum has received little new material to work with. Anyway... Pokedra, see if this get's its point across: Code:
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To prove my point go check the statistics of Smogon. Blissey runs Bold 50.7% of the time and Calm 43.2%. People run 150-200 SpD EV's around 20% of the time while and most people run 252 Def EV's 90% of the time. Yes, Bold Blissey is still FAR more popular but I've never really seen many Special-based walling Blissey's being used. We're going off topic let's keep discussing Latias. |
Okay seriously, enough of this CB Latias nonsense. I don't care what EV spread you're running on Blissey or on Latias, CB Latias is NOT a notable set. Neither is Calm 252 HP/216 SDef Blissey, but that's another story. I know you don't have to use it, but you can say that about any novelty set, but that doesn't make it notable, ever. Surprise value doesn't either, especially since Blissey actually survives your CBed STAB 120 base power hit (which is absolutely pathetic). I'm not saying it's unusable, I'm saying it's not notable in this thread or in any serious discussion or analysis about [email protected] It's not going in and it never will be, end of story.
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It's not a great set and we should stop discussing it. Sorry Anti :(
Could you edit the counters and put Tyranitar as a counter because it fares pretty well due to Crunch and Sand Stream boost? I've never used Tyranitar much so could you do a him in the counters? |
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I'll update the Counters section soon and I suppose I'll the CB set from Latias. Please everyone stick to discussing Latias not Salamence and Blissey.
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I really advise against Choice Bander, honestly, it's just too weak. If you're going to mention it, at least Trick a slash so it can screw up things like Skarmory, Forretress, and other physical (lol) walls. Also is a nice Blissey screw-upper without resorting to Outrage.
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I deleted CB Latias from the first post. No, Trick doesn't suddenly make it notable either. First of all, physical walls actually use physical attacks, so if you want to screw them up, Tricking them a Choice Band of all things is probably really stupid. TrickScarf is much better for messing up walls, since all of them except Gliscor (lol) are really slow. Not only that, but TrickScarf would be taking advantage of one of the most powerful Draco Meteors in OUs and Latias's awesome Special Attack.
And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty. In a discussion that is geared towards what impact Latias will have on the metagame and what the tier status of both of them should be, novelty sets are irrelevant. Unless you can tell me that CB Latias can work without the surprise factor or whatever you want to call it and be an effective set, this matter is closed. |
When I first found out that Latias was taken off of the uber list and listed as OU, I thought it was going to be a disaster because of her very high stats. I'm not the best at pokemon, but I was playing on Shoddy the other day and encountered a few Latias - they weren't easy to beat or anything like that, but I certainly didn't have as much trouble with them as I thought I would.
But, Latios is a different story. I haven't battled him lately since he's still being tested, but I think (and hope) that he'll stay as an uber. The reason why Latias isn't too powerful for OU is because, while she has high defenses, her attack stats aren't the greatest, and most people seem to use her very defensively so I haven't had to worry about her 110 Sp. Atk. I also find that she has enough weaknesses to make her quite easy to KO, as long as you're careful. I think Latios would be too physically powerful to be used effectively in OU, but chances are that he'll be put in OU with Latias, anyway. : / I already encounter people in the OU category of Shoddy who use Giratina and Darkrai anyway, so maybe it won't make such a huge difference. :P |
Latios... physically powerful? His ATK is pretty mediocre =/
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i wasn't actually speaking about certain sets, i was just saying that you can't go rule out what you assume to be novelty when common usage is just as much as an assumption of the current metagame.
but since you brought it up, i think the main idea for Latios as a DDer is that it isn't as vulnerable to srock and ice attacks. definitely not as bulky as salamence who has intimidate to boot, but damage reducing berries are just as viable with the perfect amount of hp investment to allow for a game changing sweep. sure, it's ballsy, but the metagame is what it is. |
It's worth a mention that with a Yache Berry, Salamence effectively has better typing. It can maintain a better attack stat at the same time.
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I agree that surprise value can be a reason to use a moveset, but it has to be of some value after the initial surprise is revealed or you're basically playing down one Pokemon. I was referring to "surprise" Pokemon that aren't useful after the surprise is up or those whose surprise isn't exactly useful, and CB Latias fits into both of those categories (seeing that it actually leaves Blissey with health to spare and can let it come in on Swampert's Ice Beam or something like that and heal up later). Besides, TrickScarf is crippling Blissey while letting Latias use attacks that do more damage. |
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