The PokéCommunity Forums

The PokéCommunity Forums (https://www.pokecommunity.com/index.php)
-   Pokémon Strategies & Movesets (archive) (https://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   [email protected] Suspect Test Discussion (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=167860)

Rhys29 February 5th, 2009 3:40 PM

Latias is acceptable as T-Tar, Snorlax, and sometimes Blissey (only CM sets) counter it. However, I believe Latios would absolutely wreck OU in every way shape and form. This is 'theorymon' of course, but a Specs Boosted 130 base Draco Meteor will take out everything everywhere. It also has Trick and potential Dragon Dance/MixSweeper sets, so it will be rediculous imo. Latias can do pretty dang beastly though. When you are doing your calcs with T-Tar make sure you take Reflect sets into account btw.

Anti February 5th, 2009 3:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4334804)
Anti:

The reason someone would use Special CBTar is that it can take hits as well as hit back hard. The same Tyranitar is used in Ubers to take hits from the likes of Mewtwo and Kyogre (not in the Rain of course).

It's shaky, but it has other uses. I'm mentioning it because it can work, and not be "overcentralizing" or some garbage such as that.

Unlike Swampert, Snorlax isn't OHKOed by Latios.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti
I'm definitely editing the Counters section to include revenge killers and checks (and I'll throw in Def. CBTar too since it gets the job done though I won't be hyping it by any means).

^Let that be the end of it. I'm not including CBLax though since it's simply too shaky. I'll mention Snorlax as a whole though and might throw in a mention of CBLax being an okay check since it works well if it avoids Draco after all. But a counter it is not.

I agree with Rhys for the most part but I refuse to jump on the physical or even mixed Latios bandwagon. Salamence is better suited for that stuff anyway. The DD set is equally "ugh" since Salamence does that infinitely better. Also, I'm not going to call Latios a lock for the Uber tier just yet since Latias was decisively voted to OUs, and while they do different things and everything because of stat differences, they really aren't THAT different (not to imply that the differences don't mean anything because they can mean everything, but just saying).

I think Latios will be deemed Uber but I would not be surprised if it went the other way. I'm kind of eh about it since I don't really OU anymore, and as previously mentioned, a lot of this IS theorymon.

. February 5th, 2009 4:42 PM

I don't see the point of DD Latios honestly. If you're using an inferior offensive set for the sake of "surprising" your enemy, you're better off using something with more Attack. For example, Specs Luke is pretty underrated, and Calm Mind Lucario is also unexpected but packs a nasty punch. DD Latios gets 418 Attack after a Dragon Dance (excluding Life Orb). That's not that impressive, and it still misses a good deal of OHKOs after a Dragon Dance. +1 LO Earthquake doesn't OHKO Max HP Tyranitar, and even with Stealth Rock it only OHKOs 7.69% of the time. Max HP Metagross is never OHKOd; regardless of SR or not.

I guess an argument can be made against Blissey, since Blissey takes 90% minimum from a DD boosted Outrage and is always OHKOed with Stealth Rock present.

Pokedra February 5th, 2009 10:09 PM

I admit that Heracross can come in and OHKO Calm Mind Latias but it is also weak to Latias so it can beat her at times but it also can't at times.

CB Latias isn't the great I admit but it can suprise people. Anti I think the EV's are standard now since Blissey has become a more Special-based waller due to the increasing Special attacker threats.

Latios and Latias are equal. It's generally up to preference. I prefer Latias over Latios for the same reason as I prefer Mesprit over Azelf cause it can take a better then the latter but still has amzing offensive stats.

Anti February 6th, 2009 2:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
CB Latias isn't the great I admit but it can suprise people. Anti I think the EV's are standard now since Blissey has become a more Special-based waller due to the increasing Special attacker threats.

Surprising people doesn't matter. Being effective is what matters. CB Latias isn't effective. It's that simple.

And you're wrong, those are the two most common special wall Blissey EV spreads. Bold Blissey is still common as well (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk) and makes CB Latias even more of a joke. Blissey without Defense EVs is so horrible that even the weakest of physical attackers can 2HKO. I'm 100% sure I'm right on this one, check the usage statistics if you want. But Blissey is almost always running 119 Def or 130 Def (the final stat).

Quote:

Latios and Latias are equal. It's generally up to preference. I prefer Latias over Latios for the same reason as I prefer Mesprit over Azelf cause it can take a better then the latter but still has amzing offensive stats.
That isn't true either >_> Azelf and Mesprit are two totally different Pokemon and both are used for completely different things. If it was simply "personal preference," Mesprit wouldn't be almost completely unseen in OUs while Azelf shines as the number one lead on the ladder. Latios and Latias are similar in many ways, but they're not similar enough that you can call them equal. Otherwise there wouldn't be two separate suspect tests.

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 2:44 AM

Quote:

Surprising people doesn't matter. Being effective is what matters. CB Latias isn't effective. It's that simple.

And you're wrong, those are the two most common special wall Blissey EV spreads. Bold Blissey is still common as well (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk) and makes CB Latias even more of a joke. Blissey without Defense EVs is so horrible that even the weakest of physical attackers can 2HKO. I'm 100% sure I'm right on this one, check the usage statistics if you want. But Blissey is almost always running 119 Def or 130 Def (the final stat).
Yeah but more people are running Special-based walling Blissey. Bold is still common but I read somewhere on a Smogon forum more and more Blissey special-bsed walling variations are being used.

It's still an optional set though, you don't have to use it :).

Quote:

That isn't true either >_> Azelf and Mesprit are two totally different Pokemon and both are used for completely different things. If it was simply "personal preference," Mesprit wouldn't be almost completely unseen in OUs while Azelf shines as the number one lead on the ladder. Latios and Latias are similar in many ways, but they're not similar enough that you can call them equal. Otherwise there wouldn't be two separate suspect tests.
They are different but not completely different. Mesprit functions as a wall or a sweeper. I reckon Mesprit is a bit underated. It doesn't get Nasty Plot or Explosion but it still is very balanced with 4 105 base stats plus CM and Boltbeam. The speed really lets it down.

Latias/Latios are not totally equals but they're very similar with Latias more defensive while Latios is offensive. I think Latios will be dropped to OU, it is a bigger threat then Latias but it isn't as bulky as her so it dies faster.

Archer February 6th, 2009 3:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4334970)
I don't see the point of DD Latios honestly. If you're using an inferior offensive set for the sake of "surprising" your enemy, you're better off using something with more Attack. For example, Specs Luke is pretty underrated, and Calm Mind Lucario is also unexpected but packs a nasty punch. DD Latios gets 418 Attack after a Dragon Dance (excluding Life Orb). That's not that impressive, and it still misses a good deal of OHKOs after a Dragon Dance. +1 LO Earthquake doesn't OHKO Max HP Tyranitar, and even with Stealth Rock it only OHKOs 7.69% of the time. Max HP Metagross is never OHKOd; regardless of SR or not.

I guess an argument can be made against Blissey, since Blissey takes 90% minimum from a DD boosted Outrage and is always OHKOed with Stealth Rock present.

To elaborate more on this, Adamant Salamence has 405 Attack before a Dragon Dance. Neither of which have a STAB on anything that complements Dragon Claw/Outrage, so Salamence outclasses it in that regard. Unless it really complements your team, where Salamence doesn't.... in that case you should still run another set. :D

As with any over-hyped addition to the Metagame, Latias will centralise the metagame until people get used to it; meaning its (Thankyou Anti) activity will drop and people will learn to deal with it better, as they do all threats.

One thing that is interesting about tier changes is that all new additions seem to be offensive threats and this manipulates the Metagame into a more offensive and extreme (as in, you almost have to stick to total Offence or Defence). I'd quite like to see the effect Deoxys-D would have on the Metagame, as the Defensive side of the spectrum has received little new material to work with. Anyway...

Pokedra, see if this get's its point across:
Code:

Azelf      | Move        | Stealth Rock    |    53.0
 Azelf      | Move        | Nasty Plot      |    14.7


Azelf isn't even a primary sweeper, so trying to compare it with Mesprit and Uxie is pointless. Every Pokemon is different to another in some way, so unless one completely outclasses another in every regard, there is a time and a place in which one similar pokemon will excel more than another. Latios and Latias are different, they play differently and have a different movepool. End of story.

The Hero Without a Name February 6th, 2009 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4335905)
Yeah but more people are running Special-based walling Blissey.

All of which ALWAYS have 252 Def EV's.
Quote:

Bold is still common but I read somewhere on a Smogon forum more and more Blissey special-bsed walling variations are being used.
Yeah, because people just don't learn >_> here's some Smogoner's post on that regard:
Quote:

Originally Posted by EeveeTrainer (Post 1703294)
You are all wrong about Blissey. Defense is its most important stat, it should be made to withstand physical hits as much as possible.

714/130 Blissey forever. Maximize its ability to take physical hits. If you were to move its HP EV's into Special Defense (652/369), you'd only gain a little bit more Special survivability (versus 714/306) at the cost of Physical survivability. With all the mixed attackers out there, you need to make Blissey as able as possible to take the random Brick Breaks and such.

wtf? and Jumpman backed him up on that post, leaving me beaten -.-

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 12:15 PM

Quote:

One thing that is interesting about tier changes is that all new additions seem to be offensive threats and this manipulates the Metagame into a more offensive and extreme (as in, you almost have to stick to total Offence or Defence). I'd quite like to see the effect Deoxys-D would have on the Metagame, as the Defensive side of the spectrum has received little new material to work with. Anyway...

Pokedra, see if this get's its point across:
Code:

Azelf      | Move        | Stealth Rock    |    53.0
 Azelf      | Move        | Nasty Plot      |    14.7


Azelf isn't even a primary sweeper, so trying to compare it with Mesprit and Uxie is pointless. Every Pokemon is different to another in some way, so unless one completely outclasses another in every regard, there is a time and a place in which one similar pokemon will excel more than another. Latios and Latias are different, they play differently and have a different movepool. End of story.
Whoops I forgot about the Anti-lead with Stealth Rock. Let's just say Azelf is good at both. It's fast so it can lay down Stealth Rock but it stats kinda point to a sweeper 125/125/115.

Quote:

All of which ALWAYS have 252 Def EV's.
Not ALWAYS,it is still very, very common but apparently Special-walling based Blissey's are increasing in usage.

To prove my point go check the statistics of Smogon. Blissey runs Bold 50.7% of the time and Calm 43.2%. People run 150-200 SpD EV's around 20% of the time while and most people run 252 Def EV's 90% of the time. Yes, Bold Blissey is still FAR more popular but I've never really seen many Special-based walling Blissey's being used.

We're going off topic let's keep discussing Latias.

Anti February 6th, 2009 12:38 PM

Okay seriously, enough of this CB Latias nonsense. I don't care what EV spread you're running on Blissey or on Latias, CB Latias is NOT a notable set. Neither is Calm 252 HP/216 SDef Blissey, but that's another story. I know you don't have to use it, but you can say that about any novelty set, but that doesn't make it notable, ever. Surprise value doesn't either, especially since Blissey actually survives your CBed STAB 120 base power hit (which is absolutely pathetic). I'm not saying it's unusable, I'm saying it's not notable in this thread or in any serious discussion or analysis about [email protected] It's not going in and it never will be, end of story.

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 1:23 PM

It's not a great set and we should stop discussing it. Sorry Anti :(

Could you edit the counters and put Tyranitar as a counter because it fares pretty well due to Crunch and Sand Stream boost? I've never used Tyranitar much so could you do a him in the counters?

. February 6th, 2009 4:15 PM

Quote:

To elaborate more on this, Adamant Salamence has 405 Attack before a Dragon Dance. Neither of which have a STAB on anything that complements Dragon Claw/Outrage, so Salamence outclasses it in that regard. Unless it really complements your team, where Salamence doesn't.... in that case you should still run another set.
I love it when people read. Who brings a Blissey into a Salamence? Unless you know for certain it's a SpecsMence (impossible without luck). It's suprise factor, although it still sucks outside of that.

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 6:27 PM

I'll update the Counters section soon and I suppose I'll the CB set from Latias. Please everyone stick to discussing Latias not Salamence and Blissey.

. February 6th, 2009 6:48 PM

I really advise against Choice Bander, honestly, it's just too weak. If you're going to mention it, at least Trick a slash so it can screw up things like Skarmory, Forretress, and other physical (lol) walls. Also is a nice Blissey screw-upper without resorting to Outrage.

Pokedra February 6th, 2009 9:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4338077)
I really advise against Choice Bander, honestly, it's just too weak. If you're going to mention it, at least Trick a slash so it can screw up things like Skarmory, Forretress, and other physical (lol) walls. Also is a nice Blissey screw-upper without resorting to Outrage.

Good idea! I'll add it, the set is pretty bad but it can kinda work. Don't bite my head off, the CM sets and Choice Specs are WAY better.

Anti February 7th, 2009 6:24 AM

I deleted CB Latias from the first post. No, Trick doesn't suddenly make it notable either. First of all, physical walls actually use physical attacks, so if you want to screw them up, Tricking them a Choice Band of all things is probably really stupid. TrickScarf is much better for messing up walls, since all of them except Gliscor (lol) are really slow. Not only that, but TrickScarf would be taking advantage of one of the most powerful Draco Meteors in OUs and Latias's awesome Special Attack.

And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty. In a discussion that is geared towards what impact Latias will have on the metagame and what the tier status of both of them should be, novelty sets are irrelevant. Unless you can tell me that CB Latias can work without the surprise factor or whatever you want to call it and be an effective set, this matter is closed.

Lila February 7th, 2009 9:45 AM

When I first found out that Latias was taken off of the uber list and listed as OU, I thought it was going to be a disaster because of her very high stats. I'm not the best at pokemon, but I was playing on Shoddy the other day and encountered a few Latias - they weren't easy to beat or anything like that, but I certainly didn't have as much trouble with them as I thought I would.

But, Latios is a different story. I haven't battled him lately since he's still being tested, but I think (and hope) that he'll stay as an uber. The reason why Latias isn't too powerful for OU is because, while she has high defenses, her attack stats aren't the greatest, and most people seem to use her very defensively so I haven't had to worry about her 110 Sp. Atk. I also find that she has enough weaknesses to make her quite easy to KO, as long as you're careful.

I think Latios would be too physically powerful to be used effectively in OU, but chances are that he'll be put in OU with Latias, anyway. : / I already encounter people in the OU category of Shoddy who use Giratina and Darkrai anyway, so maybe it won't make such a huge difference. :P

The Hero Without a Name February 7th, 2009 10:00 AM

Latios... physically powerful? His ATK is pretty mediocre =/

Lila February 7th, 2009 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiroi Togekiss (Post 4339664)
Latios... physically powerful? His ATK is pretty mediocre =/

I meant his special attack, sorry. XD I'm not used to discussing pokemon, so I get some of the terms mixed up. What I meant is that in a strict offensive way, he's much more dangerous than Latias and can cause many more problems. Latias has decent special attack as well, but most people I've battled used her more defensively, so I didn't have to worry about that too much - with Latios, most people will play with him offensively, which makes him much bigger nuisance, in my opinion.

Pokedra February 7th, 2009 1:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4339022)
I deleted CB Latias from the first post. No, Trick doesn't suddenly make it notable either. First of all, physical walls actually use physical attacks, so if you want to screw them up, Tricking them a Choice Band of all things is probably really stupid. TrickScarf is much better for messing up walls, since all of them except Gliscor (lol) are really slow. Not only that, but TrickScarf would be taking advantage of one of the most powerful Draco Meteors in OUs and Latias's awesome Special Attack.

And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty. In a discussion that is geared towards what impact Latias will have on the metagame and what the tier status of both of them should be, novelty sets are irrelevant. Unless you can tell me that CB Latias can work without the surprise factor or whatever you want to call it and be an effective set, this matter is closed.

Alright Anti, I was going to take it off anyway but I forgot but do you find the other sets satisfoactory?

Samson February 7th, 2009 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4339022)
And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty.

ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.

Archer February 8th, 2009 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 4341928)
ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.

What you're saying is valid to a degree, although in this case, Salamence is even more versatile and can trick the opponent by pretending to use a Specs set, but using a DD one. Considering that after a DD, it has about the same Atk as +0 Mence, but can't switch out then, for fear of losing the boost. I just don't see how it acheives anything.

Samson February 8th, 2009 12:55 AM

i wasn't actually speaking about certain sets, i was just saying that you can't go rule out what you assume to be novelty when common usage is just as much as an assumption of the current metagame.

but since you brought it up, i think the main idea for Latios as a DDer is that it isn't as vulnerable to srock and ice attacks. definitely not as bulky as salamence who has intimidate to boot, but damage reducing berries are just as viable with the perfect amount of hp investment to allow for a game changing sweep. sure, it's ballsy, but the metagame is what it is.

Archer February 8th, 2009 1:00 AM

It's worth a mention that with a Yache Berry, Salamence effectively has better typing. It can maintain a better attack stat at the same time.

Anti February 8th, 2009 8:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 4341928)
ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.

But CB Latias isn't even killing what it's meant to kill. It can only do serious damage to weak Pokemon that don't resist Outrage. Sure it beats Blissey in two hits, but you are taking a huge risk in locking yourself into Outrage and hoping that it is in fact Blissey or Snorlax that is coming in when it is just as likely that it's Metagross or Bronzong coming in to absorb Draco Meteor. Besides, you may need Latias for something before it can lure in Blissey, usually something like revenge killing where you are forced to give away the "Surprise." It's way too shaky.

I agree that surprise value can be a reason to use a moveset, but it has to be of some value after the initial surprise is revealed or you're basically playing down one Pokemon. I was referring to "surprise" Pokemon that aren't useful after the surprise is up or those whose surprise isn't exactly useful, and CB Latias fits into both of those categories (seeing that it actually leaves Blissey with health to spare and can let it come in on Swampert's Ice Beam or something like that and heal up later). Besides, TrickScarf is crippling Blissey while letting Latias use attacks that do more damage.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:12 AM.


Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2018 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2016 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.

Acknowledgements
Use of PokéCommunity Assets
vB Optimise by DragonByte Technologies Ltd © 2023.