The PokéCommunity Forums

The PokéCommunity Forums (https://www.pokecommunity.com/index.php)
-   Pokémon Strategies & Movesets (archive) (https://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   [email protected] Suspect Test Discussion (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=167860)

Pokedra February 9th, 2009 9:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4342634)
But CB Latias isn't even killing what it's meant to kill. It can only do serious damage to weak Pokemon that don't resist Outrage. Sure it beats Blissey in two hits, but you are taking a huge risk in locking yourself into Outrage and hoping that it is in fact Blissey or Snorlax that is coming in when it is just as likely that it's Metagross or Bronzong coming in to absorb Draco Meteor. Besides, you may need Latias for something before it can lure in Blissey, usually something like revenge killing where you are forced to give away the "Surprise." It's way too shaky.

I agree that surprise value can be a reason to use a moveset, but it has to be of some value after the initial surprise is revealed or you're basically playing down one Pokemon. I was referring to "surprise" Pokemon that aren't useful after the surprise is up or those whose surprise isn't exactly useful, and CB Latias fits into both of those categories (seeing that it actually leaves Blissey with health to spare and can let it come in on Swampert's Ice Beam or something like that and heal up later). Besides, TrickScarf is crippling Blissey while letting Latias use attacks that do more damage.

The CB set is gone. There's no need for more discussion on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4341981)
It's worth a mention that with a Yache Berry, Salamence effectively has better typing. It can maintain a better attack stat at the same time.

This is a Latias discussion not a Salamence one.

Anti February 10th, 2009 5:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
The CB set is gone. There's no need for more discussion on it.

I was responding to something about "surprise" sets in general which is actually pretty relevant seeing how people want to throw Flame Orb or a Choice Band on this thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
This is a Latias discussion not a Salamence one.

Leave the moderating to me. His point is relevant because there is no point to use DD Latios if Salamence does it better, which is true and is pretty much the reason not to use DD Latios (that and DD Latios isn't very good anyway).

Now how about instead of discussing sets that are done better by everything else, we talk about what isn't? The Choice Specs and defensive Calm Mind sets come to mind.

Pokedra February 11th, 2009 12:01 AM

Sorry Anti. I heard someone say that they will test Latias w/th the Soul Dew in OU? Is that true?

Archer February 14th, 2009 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4349324)
Sorry Anti. I heard someone say that they will test Latias w/th the Soul Dew in OU? Is that true?

That is just over-powered. Latios without Soul Dew is the only thing currently being tested, but Soul Dew is a thought on a few people's minds at the moment. It depends on the Suspect "Order of Operations".

. February 15th, 2009 12:18 AM

I'm afraid of Latios's placement in OU. Using my Suspect team, I've noticed how he breaks through things usually supposed to counter him. Specs Draco Meteor is monstrous, 2HKOing even Steel types with relative ease. Grass Knot destroys Tyranitar and hits a lot of Water types harder than Draco Meteor according to their weight. I've seen a few Dual Screen users, so it seems that some people prefer to use Latios over Latias even in support sets sheerly for his higher Special Attack.

Pokedra February 15th, 2009 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4353199)
I'm afraid of Latios's placement in OU. Using my Suspect team, I've noticed how he breaks through things usually supposed to counter him. Specs Draco Meteor is monstrous, 2HKOing even Steel types with relative ease. Grass Knot destroys Tyranitar and hits a lot of Water types harder than Draco Meteor according to their weight. I've seen a few Dual Screen users, so it seems that some people prefer to use Latios over Latias even in support sets sheerly for his higher Special Attack.

I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.

Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.

Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.

Anti February 15th, 2009 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.

Irrelevant. Tyranitar can't switch in and beat Latios, period. Here is Timid Choice specs Latios' Surf on standard Choice Band Tyranitar:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (95 Base Power): 208 - 246 (54.03% - 63.90%)

It's always a 2HKO regardless of SR. Grass Knot does even more though I really don't know why you would use it. Draco Meteor will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock down. Not a counter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.

CBGross is almost never seen (so little that Choice Band isn't even mentioned under Metagross in this month's usage statistics). Neither of them have any business staying in to get smashed by Tyranitar either if they're setting up screens. Snorlax is another example of something they don't have any business messing with. The bulk helps, but so does extra special attack. You can't forget that what switches in on Latios might also be different (less threatening stuff usually since only special walls can take its hits). You can't just declare one better since "better" completely relies on the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.

Isn't that kind of a given though? Nobody is arguing against that.

. February 15th, 2009 12:55 AM

Quote:

I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.
I know that, however, the majority of TTar I see are the standard 176 HP / 0 SpD versions. Even bulkier versions get hurt badly by Grass Knot.

Quote:

Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.
Um...thanks for telling me something I already know?

Quote:

Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.
My bet is Latios will be a sweeper and Latias will be a support Pokemon. Yes.

Sebastien Loeb February 15th, 2009 1:45 AM

For the chronicle, if you don't like the actual metagame another simulator he has gone out for hardly Diamond & Pearl (and therefore I decidedly find opportune to modify the name of the section Shoddy Lounge) where the dictatorship of Smogon there is not to create problems on the metagame, says this Latias he can quietly be stopped by a defensive Tyranitar with Pursuit, and if he is good battler also wanting from a Bulky Scizor (or a Scizor with many HP and Special Defense) Swords Dance is used while Latias uses Calm Mind and immediately later him him abbate with Bullet Punch, totally talked different as it regards Latios, it is a real it unswathes team, in the Suspect Ladder it is practically impossible to be stopped, even Pokémon as Skymin or Garchomp were less dangerous, therefore it has to stay uber or otherwise goodbye Shoddy.

Pokedra February 18th, 2009 12:30 AM

Latios is a huge threat I agree Sebestian but Latios will probably be OU as well. We'll see.

Syaoran February 18th, 2009 2:59 AM

Latios will not be OU imo. It is far too deadly, OU is enough having 2 pokemon with extremely overpowered (and yeah, it is over an overpowered move) Draco Meteor - Latias and Salamence. Even steels don't enjoy switching in, as some of them (like Metagross), with 252 HP EVs, get stripped over 50% damage. 130 base SAtk Draco Meteor is really pushing it, backed up by incredible speed and no double weaknesses to exploit.

dark_seeker February 18th, 2009 4:35 AM

Quote:

Latios will not be OU imo. It is far too deadly, OU is enough having 2 pokemon with extremely overpowered (and yeah, it is over an overpowered move) Draco Meteor - Latias and Salamence. Even steels don't enjoy switching in, as some of them (like Metagross), with 252 HP EVs, get stripped over 50% damage. 130 base SAtk Draco Meteor is really pushing it, backed up by incredible speed and no double weaknesses to exploit.
agreed on the point that it is deadly but it gets revenge killed pretty decently by a number of pokes and it would not have its signature item soul dew so i think there will be chances that it may be put into ou.and the fact that its got not one 4x and 1 2x but a no. of weaknesses so wide range of pokes can hit it hard.
Question:lucario was brought up at one point..can choice scarf dark pulse ko latios?(mild/216 sp.att)

Syaoran February 18th, 2009 4:56 AM

How exactly is it revenge killed so easily >>;

Shen February 18th, 2009 7:05 AM

Latios will not be moved down to OU. Latias was moved down due to the way the metagame works now. It's all about hitting hard and fast and the use of walls have greatly diminished. Latios remains a very potent sweeper in the Uber environment from what I can tell, whereas Latias doesn't have the sheer stats to really compete. Correct me if I'm wrong, I very rarely Uber.

dark_seeker February 18th, 2009 8:12 AM

i have been playing ubers latly and i have'nt seen to many latios as there other pokes in that enviorment which hit equally hard if not harder.latias is used but only defesive sets as latias doesn't have the sheer power to break uber walls.

EDIT : Scarf mixLucario(Mild,216 sp.att)cannot revenge kill latios 6 hp/0 sp.def.As it only manages definite 2ko.52.98-62.88 or some such.

Quote:

How exactly is it revenge killed so easily >>;
I did not say easily but i said effectivly.i mean weavile,tyranitar and scarf heracross.Revenge kill it with pursuit/megahorn.im sure there are other effective revenge killers out there who can take on latios.
Revenge killing is the easy part.The hard part is choosing which pokemon is going to go so you can get a free switch.there's were the point about counters come which i dont see to many of speaking of,can cressilia counter and still have enough health to moonlight it of ?

. February 18th, 2009 9:03 AM

I think the reason people rarely use Latios is because something like Palkia is usually a lot more threatening. Plus there are many things to incapitate it, and it doesn't switch in as easily. Let's not forget the one and only Blissey stops it.

Latios is still good in Ubers, albeit not fantastic, like it is in OU.

Anti February 18th, 2009 1:14 PM

Um who cares if you can revenge kill a Choice Specs Pokemon lol ? Unless it's Pursuiting Latios (which is really its only big weakness), it's pretty much irrelevant. I mean how much sense does "Hey, let's sacrifice something to force Latios to switch out!" make? ._. for the Calm Minder that argument is a lot better, but for something that is hit and run anyways I don't see how that's an argument against Specs Latios at all.

Picking our revenge killers to beat it isn't an intelligent way to go about it - I assure you, I could round up a few solid revenge killers for a lot of Uber Pokemon. "Revenge kill Pokemon X" is such stupid theorymon anyway seeing as they just switch. This isn't Garchomp where it's locked into Outrage and loses a Swords Dance boost when it switches out...this is a simple Choice Specs Pokemon. If revenge killing is the best argument against Specs Latios then I will fight to the end for it to be banned.

That being said, I haven't played suspect so I wouldn't know if it's Uber or not. I just wanted to mention how useless revenge killing a Choice user is unless they can't escape.

Shen February 18th, 2009 3:05 PM

If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

. February 18th, 2009 3:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shen (Post 4363830)
If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

Why?

If it can be dealt with, it can be dealt with. Latios can be dealt with by the best revenge killing move in the game (Pursuit). It's not like the "X switches out of Y's attempt to revenge kill".

Syaoran February 18th, 2009 4:39 PM

Because losing a pokemon in the process defeats the purpose.

. February 18th, 2009 4:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syaoran (Post 4364120)
Because losing a pokemon in the process defeats the purpose.

So every Pokemon without a true counter is uber? Let's get rid of Dragonite and Salamence, why don't we?

Syaoran February 18th, 2009 5:23 PM

You see, that's only 1 thing. Many reasons are factored when deciding if a pokemon is uber or not. In the case of Latios, 130 Draco Meteor is just too darn powerful. Salamence's Draco Meteor can be handled to an extent, and the SR weakness doesn't help it either. Latios doesn't have quad weaknesses, no SR weakness, and great speed to work with.

You don't necessarily "lose" a pokemon when switching in Salamence (or Dragonite lol). To make steel pokemon more "capable" of taking on Latios with SDef EVs, the entire OU metagame will start resembling the Uber metagame.

. February 18th, 2009 5:34 PM

Quote:

You see, that's only 1 thing. Many reasons are factored when deciding if a pokemon is uber or not. In the case of Latios, 130 Draco Meteor is just too darn powerful. Salamence's Draco Meteor can be handled to an extent, and the SR weakness doesn't help it either. Latios doesn't have quad weaknesses, no SR weakness, and great speed to work with.
This I can understand. Latios's Draco Meteor is pretty damn powerful.

Quote:

You don't necessarily "lose" a pokemon when switching in Salamence (or Dragonite lol). To make steel pokemon more "capable" of taking on Latios with SDef EVs, the entire OU metagame will start resembling the Uber metagame.
Salamence sometimes DOES require sacrificing a Pokemon in order to kill it, but I can understand your point.

Lila February 18th, 2009 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4364273)



Salamence sometimes DOES require sacrificing a Pokemon in order to kill it, but I can understand your point.

Any pokemon can require another pokemon being sacrificed to kill it, so the point is moot. The difference is that with Latios, you almost always have to sacrifice a pokemon to kill it. The only times I haven't had to sacrifice a pokemon is when my opponent was being dumb, and even then I found the pokemon to be so strong that even a stupid person could abuse it easily. -_-;

Latios one-shots pretty much any pokemon, even steels with high special defense, and if he doesn't one-shot them he'll get them down to low health and will be able to finish them off the next turn. As said above, Latios doesn't have a SR weakness, nor a double weakness. Also, there aren't priority moves that can easily take him down, like Ice Shard. I can deal with Latias in OU, but Latios? It seems like it's pushing it a little bit, and too many people are saying "oh Latias and Latios are like the same so if one goes down to OU both should". : /

Pokedra February 18th, 2009 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shen (Post 4362414)
Latios will not be moved down to OU. Latias was moved down due to the way the metagame works now. It's all about hitting hard and fast and the use of walls have greatly diminished. Latios remains a very potent sweeper in the Uber environment from what I can tell, whereas Latias doesn't have the sheer stats to really compete. Correct me if I'm wrong, I very rarely Uber.

No offense but that's wrong. Latias in Ubers was more popular then Latias or so Smogon says. Latias can function as a tank but in Ubers it took its far better then Latios and could KO something. Most importantly it can actually take a hit or two. According to statistics Latias is used more then double Latios and even Tyranitar and Scizor is used more then Latios. 194 Defense can't cope with the Uber metagame so it will be downgraded.

130 SpAtk is fearsome but it's easily revenge killed. Weavile or Dugtrio can used Pursuit/Sucker Punch repesctively to land a huge hit on him. Even when he's full health Pokemon with Sucker Punch can land a huge hit on him. 305 HP /194 Def is even less bulky then Salamence who has Intimidate to cope with his wose Def and higher HP.

Here's some damage calcs for Latios with 0HP/0 Def/0 SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 76.41% - 89.70%(Sometimes OHKO w/Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 87.71% - 102.99%(OHKO with Stealth Rock 100%)
Jolly CB 252 Atk Weavile w/ Night Slash - 130.90% - 154.15%(OHKO no matter what)
Timid CS 252 SpAtk Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 56.48% - 66.45%(2HKO no matter what)

Now some for Latias with 0HP/0 Def/0SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 69.44% - 81.73%(Never OHKO even w/ Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 79.73% - 93.69%(W/ Stealth Rock never OHKO'ed w/ Stealth Rock OHKO is possible)
Timid 252 SpAtk CS Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 48.84% - 57.48%(Sometimes 3HKO or 2HKO)

Latias's extra bulk helps. She can survive Dugtrio and OHKO back with Ice Beam and since these EV spreads are for Choice Specs Latias can easily OHKO Toxicroak and Jolteon will fall to Choice Specs Dragon Pulse in 1-2 hits. Look none of these Pokemon are counter so don't bite my head off but seriously Latios isn't that scary. These Pokemon make good revenge killers against Latios and he can't really beat them as usually he will be damaged when they come in.

And sheer stats? No offense what are Latios's sheer stats? Base 110 Spe? Well Latias has that too. Base 80 Defense? Don't make me laugh. Base 90 Atk? Pah Salamence runs a DD set much better. Base 110 Sp Def? Pretty good but he never invests in it so it sits at a meh 255 SpDef which is pretty nice but not sheer. Base 130 SpAtk is his only sheer stat which is great, no one can deny that.

I'm not saying Latias is better or Latios is better. They are both great Pokemon but I think some people are overestimating Latios. I've faced a few, he wrecks havoc with Draco Meteor but he is beatable and personally I like Latias better.

Why? Maybe I'm crazy but 110SpAtk is good enough for me and I like the fact even without EV's she still has 216 Def/295 SpD which is pretty bulky.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:12 AM.


Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2018 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2016 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.

Acknowledgements
Use of PokéCommunity Assets
vB Optimise by DragonByte Technologies Ltd © 2023.