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Anti February 19th, 2009 2:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
No offense but that's wrong. Latias in Ubers was more popular then Latias or so Smogon says. Latias can function as a tank but in Ubers it took its far better then Latios and could KO something. Most importantly it can actually take a hit or two. According to statistics Latias is used more then double Latios and even Tyranitar and Scizor is used more then Latios. 194 Defense can't cope with the Uber metagame so it will be downgraded.

Uber metagame is irrelevant in this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
130 SpAtk is fearsome but it's easily revenge killed. Weavile or Dugtrio can used Pursuit/Sucker Punch repesctively to land a huge hit on him. Even when he's full health Pokemon with Sucker Punch can land a huge hit on him. 305 HP /194 Def is even less bulky then Salamence who has Intimidate to cope with his wose Def and higher HP.

Here's some damage calcs for Latios with 0HP/0 Def/0 SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 76.41% - 89.70%(Sometimes OHKO w/Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 87.71% - 102.99%(OHKO with Stealth Rock 100%)
Jolly CB 252 Atk Weavile w/ Night Slash - 130.90% - 154.15%(OHKO no matter what)
Timid CS 252 SpAtk Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 56.48% - 66.45%(2HKO no matter what)

Now some for Latias with 0HP/0 Def/0SpD
Jolly 252 Atk CB Dugtrio w/ Sucker Punch - 69.44% - 81.73%(Never OHKO even w/ Stealth Rock)
Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak w/ Sucker Punch - 79.73% - 93.69%(W/ Stealth Rock never OHKO'ed w/ Stealth Rock OHKO is possible)
Timid 252 SpAtk CS Jolteon w/ HP Ice - 48.84% - 57.48%(Sometimes 3HKO or 2HKO)

Latias's extra bulk helps. She can survive Dugtrio and OHKO back with Ice Beam and since these EV spreads are for Choice Specs Latias can easily OHKO Toxicroak and Jolteon will fall to Choice Specs Dragon Pulse in 1-2 hits. Look none of these Pokemon are counter so don't bite my head off but seriously Latios isn't that scary. These Pokemon make good revenge killers against Latios and he can't really beat them as usually he will be damaged when they come in.

How are those calculations even close to relevant? Weavile beating both [email protected] is a foregone conclusion (assuming it's on the revenge lol). I mean, I guess if they're both at half health Jolteon matters, but it will probably just Shadow Ball and 2HKO BOTH of them anyway (not like anybody in their right mind switches Jolteon in to take out the [email protected] whether it's on the revenge or not). And really, if somebody brings in Dugtrio to deal with Latios, it's either using Pursuit or Sucker Punch, the latter much more likely. It can just escape. Toxicroak is even more obvious since it's slower, and bringing that in to revenge is a dead giveaway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
And sheer stats? No offense what are Latios's sheer stats? Base 110 Spe? Well Latias has that too. Base 80 Defense? Don't make me laugh. Base 90 Atk? Pah Salamence runs a DD set much better. Base 110 Sp Def? Pretty good but he never invests in it so it sits at a meh 255 SpDef which is pretty nice but not sheer. Base 130 SpAtk is his only sheer stat which is great, no one can deny that.

I'm not saying Latias is better or Latios is better.[/B] They are both great Pokemon but I think some people are overestimating Latios. I've faced a few, he wrecks havoc with Draco Meteor but he is beatable and personally I like Latias better.

Why? Maybe I'm crazy but 110SpAtk is good enough for me and I like the fact even without EV's she still has 216 Def/295 SpD which is pretty bulky.

Comparing the two isn't getting anybody anywhere, especially since your comparison is pretty much an opinion hardly backed up by anything besides stats? Stats don't prove a thing. But I must say, you call Latias' base 90 bulky but Latios' base 90 a joke. There's hardly a difference. The SDef is a larger difference but both still take special hits well so I don't see any reason to use Specs Latias over Specs Latios when it is almost completely outclassed. They're both suitable for different things since they're so similar. If either of them is better, it's probably Latios since it's way more controversial and powerful for that matter. But seriously, what does comparing the two do exactly? Outline differences we already know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shen (Post 4363830)
If you can only counter it by revenge killing, it has no place in that tier.

So you want Dragon and Salamence banned because they can both slap on a Choice Band and 2HKO literally the entire OU tier?

The counter mentality is so early DP I can't even begin to describe it. Countering isn't a bad strategy or anything (quite the opposite, actually), but if you think that should determine tier status completely, I want your Salamence ban thread please. And what happens if a Pokemon has counters? Does that make it OU? Hey guys, I countered Deoxys-A with my special defensive Metagross! Definitely OU !!!!!! By the way, Latios can't do a thing to Blissey besides maybe Trick it. But that gets rid of its Choice Specs and all of a sudden Draco Meteor doesn't hurt so bad. Just saying.

I would totally fish out the new definition of Uber everyone is going by now but I can tell you that "omg no counters" is not one of them. "It has counters" is an equally bad way of going about things. If Blassey gets Sticky Hold (as in it can't be Tricked) and it has its 100% counter, that doesn't make Latios any more Uber or less Uber (well, perhaps by a small amount, but not so much that it would change its tier status).

Pokedra February 20th, 2009 3:10 AM

Quote:

Uber metagame is irrelevant in this discussion.
Some people were saying that Latios is common in Ubers when Latias is used more then 3x he is. Even Scizor and Tyranitar get more usage.


Quote:

How are those calculations even close to relevant? Weavile beating both [email protected] is a foregone conclusion (assuming it's on the revenge lol). I mean, I guess if they're both at half health Jolteon matters, but it will probably just Shadow Ball and 2HKO BOTH of them anyway (not like anybody in their right mind switches Jolteon in to take out the [email protected] whether it's on the revenge or not). And really, if somebody brings in Dugtrio to deal with Latios, it's either using Pursuit or Sucker Punch, the latter much more likely. It can just escape. Toxicroak is even more obvious since it's slower, and bringing that in to revenge is a dead giveaway.
My point is if Latios has to actually deal with one of those Pokemon he will get killed wheres Latias can stand up to them(just barely) and OHKO them usually.



Quote:

Comparing the two isn't getting anybody anywhere, especially since your comparison is pretty much an opinion hardly backed up by anything besides stats? Stats don't prove a thing. But I must say, you call Latias' base 90 bulky but Latios' base 90 a joke. There's hardly a difference. The SDef is a larger difference but both still take special hits well so I don't see any reason to use Specs Latias over Specs Latios when it is almost completely outclassed. They're both suitable for different things since they're so similar. If either of them is better, it's probably Latios since it's way more controversial and powerful for that matter. But seriously, what does comparing the two do exactly? Outline differences we already know?
It is nearly always outclasseed when using Specs but Latias has less trouble dealing with physical hits as she doesn't usually get OHKO'ed by a non-STAB super-effective attack like Pursuit or Sucker Punch. 110SpAtk is still fearsome you can't deny that. Also 130 doesn't totally outclass 110.

The Hero Without a Name February 20th, 2009 7:08 AM

Really? Latios can go Timid, and yet he still gets 359 SpA, 9 points higher than Modest Latias. (Thanks Vance!)

. February 20th, 2009 11:02 AM

I agree with Togekiss, Latios outclasses Latias and Salamence as Specs users, although Salamence does have Fire Blast, it gets outclassed in every other way. Simply put, Latios can do one of the following (all are assuming Modest Salamence):

Go Modest, have 394 SpA (591 after Specs), have 66 more Special Attack than Salamence, and be 20 points faster.

Go Timid, have 359 SpA (539 after Specs), have 14 more Special Attack than Salamence, and be 51 points faster.

Even Latias gets outclassed. Latias commonly runs Timid, meaning Latios can run the same exact nature, be the same Speed, but have only 478 Special Attack after Specs. Latios will have 539 Special Attack, a very, very noticable difference.

Please stop reccomending Latias for Specs just because "she's bulkier". She's not THAT much bulkier on the physical side (80 / 90 isn't that much better than 80 / 80). On the special side, they're both very good at taking hits, but the point of a Specs set is to hit and destroy, not necessarily tank.

Anti February 20th, 2009 11:28 AM

Vance pretty much said it all but I'll throw in my two cents as well =/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
Some people were saying that Latios is common in Ubers when Latias is used more then 3x he is. Even Scizor and Tyranitar get more usage.

Yeah I know, I'm saying that nobody cares because it's not relevant. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
My point is if Latios has to actually deal with one of those Pokemon he will get killed wheres Latias can stand up to them(just barely) and OHKO them usually.

Assuming it's at full health, which is a completely unrealistic view given how common SS and SR are (the latter being on virtually every team). All of that crap is theorymon and you know it (and if you don't, this isn't the discussion for you). We all know Latias is bulkier, we just don't care. If you really value "taking hits better" from a few select threats in the OU metagame over a huge power difference on an offensive Pokemon, I don't know what to tell you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra
It is nearly always outclasseed when using Specs but Latias has less trouble dealing with physical hits as she doesn't usually get OHKO'ed by a non-STAB super-effective attack like Pursuit or Sucker Punch. 110SpAtk is still fearsome you can't deny that. Also 130 doesn't totally outclass 110.

Um, 130 does completely outclass 110, because it's always higher? I mean it's really obvious. Yeah both OHKO Hippotatas, but the difference against stuff that could potentially take a few hits is HUGE. If you prefer Latias that's fine, but don't even think about trying to argue it's better because "110 is still pretty good". 130 is still way better and there is no way to get around that. Pursuit is crushing both of them regardless and so is Sucker Punch (but that's only if you can't predict since it's insanely predictable).

All this thread has been is a bunch of useless arguments when we still haven't even scratched the surface of what effect they're actually going to have. This is not a Latios vs. Latias debate and it's never going to be, and any post that focuses on that will be infracted right away for off-topic posting. I've been pretty loose about what can be discussed in this thread but this is pretty ridiculous. Let's discuss relevant things, like Latias' or Latios' impact on the metagame and how patterns are shifted (like your typical Steels + Dragons teams). It doesn't have to be that necessarily but something with some kind of relevance to the OU metagame and/or their tier status. If this withers away any further I'm closing this thread.

Pokedra February 20th, 2009 1:45 PM

Okay we'll stop arguing. Vance, I never said Latias was better then Latios in the Specs set just less vunerable to priotiy moves. No more arguing from me.

I'm going to add some more sets for Latias like the Dual Screen and Psycho Shift sets from Smogon.


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