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The American stimulus package
With the economy in the worst recession since the Great Depression, Congress has decided to pass a Stimulus Package (here is the link to an online version if anyone wants to read it: http://readthestimulus.org/) which will cost $819 billion dollars. The package is supposed to create or save 4 million jobs by 2010. In my opinion, this is completely ridiculous. Not only would this create jobs for roughly 1% of America, which would, by the way, be temporary construction jobs, but it would cost $205 Thousand per job. That is such a massive amount of money to waste that it would likely bankrupt the U.S, but also the countries that depend on America for their own economic survival. Since there is a pretty good chance that this will fail in the long run, and that almost all jobs created would likely be temporary, in addition to the fact that the next 3 or 4 generations will be paying this off, can anyone really think that wonton spending will solve anything?
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I honestly don't know what to think of it yet.
On one hand, it will help some families to get back on their feet for a while. However, when it runs out- if they're still at the same dead-end job- it won't do much to help. On the other hand, it seems a lot of money to waste while we're in such a terrible recession. |
Since when hasn't spending trillions, enslaving future generations of Americans with debt, and integrating socialism into the economy helped us? After all, spending got us out of the Great Depression and Jimmy Carter's recession. Oh wait.
This whole situation was brought about because of government intervention in our economy, and the dumbies like Barnie Frank and Chris Dodd that created this mess are the geniuses we need to fix this? Why can't the people demand their representatives legislate and execute the law along the guidelines of the Constitution? I have to wonder if the jerks in Congress that can't be bothered to read the spending bills they vote to pass because they're hundreds of pages long even have the time to read the Constitution. I wish we'd stop thinking that the government's job is to ensure the general welfare rather than promote it; that they'd stop supporting the nanny state. I wish we'd return to Laissez-faire economics and remember that government that governs best governs least. But then if the Obama administration and the do-nothing stalinists in Congress want to ruin our currency, raise taxes, give in to big labor and the unions, and start a trading war with Europe, Canada, and our other trading partners, then by all means let them. Hope. Change. Obey. |
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unmitigated disaster
The federal government is once again, experimenting with failed economic policies that will only make things worse in the long run and continuing to prop up the biggest financial bubble in history with dangerous monetary pumping, "bridge loans", trillion dollar "recovery packages", among other things-all in the name of "jump starting the economy", "reducing unemployment", even "saving the middle class" and "preventing certain economic doom"!
Instead of listening to people like Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers, Ron Paul, and Lew Rockwell, they chose to follow the broken and otherwise disproven fallacies of Keynesian economics. How can more spending, more debt, and more inflation get us out of a depression caused by these very things? As the late economics professor Murray N. Rothbard put it- Quote:
This latest inflationary (and I mean Inflationary) "stimulus" package will do little good to "revive the economy" or "save jobs". In fact, there will probably be a third (this is the second one), and a fourth, and so on, with even larger spending. As Peter Schiff said, they'll keep upping the ante on this stuff, and eventually a currency crisis (such as in Iceland) will result-with no real recovery in sight. Despite what the mainstream media wants you to believe, economists across the board do NOT "agree" that we need big government spending to "stimulate the economy" to "prevent a much worse downturn" and whatever other lines of propaganda may be pitched justifying such. Austrian School economists such as Lew Rockwell and Peter Schiff vehemently disagree with government/Federal Reserve intervention by inflation/monetary pumping and giveaway programs. Lots of malinvestments and other bad decisions were made during the boom (which we were told would never end-that home prices would keep rising forever and ever). A recession such as this is neccesary to clean out these malinvestments and allow for solid recovery-basically starting over from scratch. See my previous posts on this Fed-created 'crisis': How bad it will get (with links to Fed M1, M2, Monetary Base) Monetary Policy history Banking Policy and Moral Hazard On Bailout Propaganda and power grabs John Stossel also has written about the dangers of Fed intervention in our economy http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=6385348&page=1 This is NOT "change we need" but more of the same-policies right from the Hoover/Roosevelt playbook. The change we need is to abolish the Federal Reserve, return to a gold standard, and become a nation of savers again. |
Argh...XD
I was hoping to make this thread once the Bill is signed on Monday. XPPPPP Eh IMO, this bill is just what we need at a time like this. I can see that the Conservatives and Libertarians are squeeling like crazy on this but this thing has 1/3 in Tax-cuts already for you guys! Seriously 5/8 Years of Republican rule/deregulization not enough for you guys? |
wrong points
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Otter Mii-kun is pretty much right on the money, though I must say I almost threw up because he referenced nutjobs like RuPaul and Pete Schiff.
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It is a myth, no a lie, that this crisis started because of free markets or unregulated capitalism; it was started by a trend since the 70's where big government bureaucrats and politicians decided to interfere with the markets. |
I really don't know what to expect in the long run. The only thing I'm concerned is trying to find a new job after I got laid off at my last one. With the economy this bad and just about everybody having layoffs and or hiring freezes, it's difficult for anybody laid off to find a new job.
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I think a little spending on the government's part is needed. But the bill is too large and a lot of stuff in it isn't long-term or job-creating. I think that overall it will hurt the economy even more. There is good in the bill, but there is also a lot of unnecessary bad.
I'm a little more accepting of a stimulus package than I am of a bailout. |
I really don't know what to think of it yet. We'll just have to see.
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You know what would be funny? If I read the quoted post wrong and this rant was for nothing. o_O That happens a lot. |
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Well, I don't have any opinion yet, but the Republicans are bashing Obama as a president just because they don't believe the bill is bipartisan ...AND WHADDYA KNOW, Sen. John McCain just happens to be first on the scene.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/15/obama.gop.stimulus/index.html :B |
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Anyway, Agent Cobalt said it all...This is just the beginning of an administration that is going to increase the size of government, which I am not in support of at all. I shudder to think what Obama plans on doing next >.< |
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Ok I guess I won't be able to post much right now since I'm Lazy XD there's no time.
First of all the Plan is just the start at stabilizing things across the world. Secondly, this is just a temporary measure really. It's just trying to lessen the impact of the recession. Yeah we like to say "Putting on the backs of our children" but then again it's not politically viable to NOT do anything. Aid to States is included in that. My state of California has already cut back one day of each month in government services (Furloughs) to save money. Third, You guys think this is big? Wait until the next Crappy TARP program comes out. If it was me, let's go trust busting and break up the banks that are "too big to fail" since "they're too big to exist." Eh, I know my explanation isn't really good right now but time... Maybe tomorrow? |
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I'm neither a politician nor a debater, so I'm just gonna drop my $.02 and say the package is all that can be done. It can't really get any worse anyway.
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I've said it time and time again, the US Economy is f***ed, there is nothing that we can do to save it, and if there is our current politicians or whoever it is that actually writes the bills that "supposedly" save us from recession don't want to use it because it probably means a nice little pay cut for them, and all of the other big rich CEOs of all that banks that can't even maintain themselves, personally if a bank can't even keep ITSELF going, then there is no way in the 9th circle of hell that you will see me deposit my money in that bank!
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My answer simply: No.
I've been sick for two weeks, and last Thursday, I was sick enough to spend the entire day watching the Senate debate this "Stimulus Package" on C-SPAN2. It was introduced, and then thoroughly ripped apart. Using backing from Historical facts based upon the Kennedy Term and the Reagan Term, as well as the agreement from the Clinton Administration Budget Secretary, the Republicans led by Arizona Senator John McCain destroyed it. Most Republicans were quite vicious in their attacks, but John McCain was subtle, quiet, and offered a well thought out compromise plan which cut the cost by more than half, and planned for immediate relief and stimulation through the public. Others, including a Democrat came on to support this idea, but then Chuck Schumer (Democrat from New York) came on, and in summary stated "Yes this is a gargantuan waste of money. No it will not bring the immediate relief we need. Even if we waste money and don't get what we're paying for, we need to do this." Eventually it was passed. The reason why I believe this will not stimulate the economy, is that it's a larger-scale version of what Franklin Delano Roosevelt implemented with his "New Deal." Essentially, it's a massive increase in TEMPORARY jobs and work, such as construction and road repairs and the like, among other things. This also failed to stimulate the economy if you look back. The Great Depression lasted throughout the Thirties and went right into World War II, which the boom in production and such boosted the economy to a point where it leaped out of the Depression. This plan is also supposed to be spread out over ten years, so the relief won't be here anytime soon unless we get lucky. Jobs do not historically fix or stimulate the economy. They keep it running smoothly when it's up, sure. Tax Cuts have traditionally worked in stimulating a Recessive economy, using the Kennedy and Reagan Administrations as prime examples. Yes, the package holds tax cuts, but not nearly big enough ones. $13 a week is not going to dig you out of a mountain of debt or buy you a house if you were foreclosed upon. Tax cuts = Money to the People, and the flow of money goes: Government -> People -> Paying off Bills (Saves the People) / Liesure -> Businesses (Saved as well). It's also cool to look at how this mess started anyway. The Economy has its ups and downs, and after the especially high point of the Reagan Era, it was headed downward for Bush Sr. and Clinton. Clinton did some decent things and was able to hold it off for Bush Jr., but he was not the one (despite popular ignorant belief) that set us into our current economic divebomb. Three major factors tore the economy down to its current state, those being: The greedy lenders and mortgage people, the banks and such; the Credit Card companies; the American Public. This is a very special case, where even people thinking "Oh, a Democrat who regulates every aspect of the economy would have prevented this." are completely wrong. The Lenders and Mortgage companies deceived the public into poor mortgages with extremely variable adjustable-rate mortgages, which rose and rose and rose in cost until the people could not afford them and in turn were foreclosed upon. I forget the complete process, but essentially it came down to the banks and lenders were betting on the loans and didn't get any collateral for them in case something happened, using a loophole and changing the terminology around so they could get around government regulations. They lost money every time that a foreclosure occured and someone could not pay their bills, and that quickly got out of control. To a lesser extent, the Credit Card companies are to blame, allowing people to drown themselves in debt and ruin their credit, and thus any chance at a good loan for a house, which is one of the factors that helped lead to the first part. As for the people, some are entirely innocent, others are not. Perhaps they never read the contract and were beguiled into signing upon the dotted line for the trouble they got themselves into. I am certain it is not completely their fault, there are many honest, good, hard-working people out there who are in situations that they don't deserve in the least... Anyway, I digress... |
US President Obama signs $787bn stimulus plan
US President Obama signs $787bn stimulus plan Quote:
Yeah I know it's not a "Silver Bullet" but hey anything that Politicians do isn't perfect. Quote:
Let's be realistic here. The Democrats have been itching for spending and is using this as an opportunity to KEEP CAMPAIGN PROMISES. >.> I know it's hypocritical, but they're politicians. They sway through the winds of public opinion, and right now the public wants regulation. I have to say that at this moment we truly need bigger government spending and programs due to the lack of consumer confidence. We have already used the Conservative option of tackling recessions through tax-cuts and Libertarian de-regulization during the 2001-2002 US recession. It might have worked too well at creating the bubble of confidence that has exploded recently. An increased budget deficit due to the Bush Tax Cuts and resulting less government revenue, plus the massive increase in government defense spending for the War on Terror (Iraq, Afganistan, etc.) did not necessarily add up. Now were in quite a hole. Isn't it hypocritical that the Republicans are complaining the "We're saddling later generations with debt" when they signed into law BILLIONS in Tax-Cuts on 2001 (which was slanted heavily to the rich WHO DON'T NEED IT!) and keeping interest rates so low that unrelenting lending was spurred? Yes, it might seem ironic on how spending got us into this and now the need to use the Liberal option of government spending and activism. But I have to agree that the long term needed investments in infrastructure, energy independence, health-care reform, education reform and domestic strengthening can be put forward much easier under this Activist Government. This needs massive Public Funds and commitment, and why not use the Economic Crisis as an umbrella to put these forward easier. No matter how much liberals are bashed, FDR comes into mind with the "New Deal." The Government Backstops created under his administration such as the FDIC, Social Security, plus the Infrastructure (ex. Golden Gate Bridge) has been life savers for this generations economic crash and has helped assured America's continued prosperity. =D |
Ugh, I really hope that GM is able to keep itself afloat. I don't think that Chrystler is gonna make it.
In actuallality, pure capitalism is far worse than it seems. You guys are scaring me with your uber-capitalism posts, and it's important to point out that capitalism is solely based on greed and dog-eat-dog. Can't get a job? Too bad. Too old to work? Die in the gutter, worthless scum. Can't get health care? Let that infection kill you. One less worthless member of our society gone. Now, we aren't all like that, right? On the other hand, communism is bad as well, for the exact opposite reasons. It looks nice on paper - "Hey, we get supported no matter what, we get housing, food and health care! Yippie!!..." But then it soon comes apparent that if you don't have to work for your house, you're just given it, the government isn't getting enough money because people aren't making as much money, and everything collapses. Like the USSR. I may not agree with a lot of Obama's plans, but the country does need to at least be a bit more like the socialist* countries of Europe. We need universal things, such as definate health care, food, water, housing, electricity, and the such. But back on topic... Living in Michigan, right near Detroit (only an hour's drive), I realize how imperative that at least GM stays afloat. Michigan is almost like a forecasting state - years before the recession hit the rest of the United States, we were feeling the pinch. People were moving outta there. I can't believe the rest of the country couldn't see it comming. It is imperative for the survival of our economy that these steps are taken: - STOP THE F*CKING OUTSOURCING. If people in the US don't have jobs, they can't buy your damn merchendise. - Make more things in America. Just give the finger to China, they're a huge part of why our economy is failing. - Cooperations such as Wal-mart get punished by law through their horrible way of treating employees. If Wal-mart can screw around with their employees and get payed with money though it, don't you think other companies will do the same? If we punish them, they'll be more inclined to give them humane services, and then, all those people on the welfare system will be off of it, and thus suddenly the government has a lot more money. Funny how it works, hmm? - Make it so that foreign goods, especially Chinese goods, are raised in price so that American companies can actually compete. I.E. a tariff. *Socialist is not synomonous with Communist. It's basically inbetween capitalism and communism. |
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