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Pokedra February 20th, 2009 2:42 PM

UU Suspects Discussion
 

UU Suspects
_____________________________________________________________________


Written By Pokedra

BACKGROUND INFO
As most of you probably know, Smogon is finished testing for the new UU and BL. The tiers are still being made. This thread is for discussion on some of the suspect Pokemon who will almost 100% make BL.

SUSPECTS
These are the suspect Pokemon that are considered far too powerful for UU by Smogoners.
REASONS
There's got to reasons for them to be too powerful for UU right? Here are some reason why.

Staraptorhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/398m.png
Staraptor is a powerhouse in UU. Its good base stats of 120 Attack and 100 Speed makes him both fast and incredibly powerful. Staraptor also has Intimidate which somewhats helps its paltry Defense.

CB Staraptor is so powerful nearly all of UU is 2HKO'ed by it (barring defensive Rotom and Luxray). Steel-types can't wall it because it has Close Combat. Brave Bird is an extremely powerful attack that will pummel anything that doesn't resist it. Return offers a move that is still powerful but doesn't has recoil damage.

Froslasshttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/478f.png
Froslass is an awesome lead with Base 110 Speed and Focus Sash she can nearly always lay down one layer of Spikes. Immunity to Fake Out and Destiny Bond means she can usually take out another Pokemon as well as setting spikes up.

Crobathttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/169m.png
Crobat is another great lead, it can outrun all of UU nearly (barring Choice Scarf) with its insane 130 Speed. Crobat can stop Pokemon setting up with Taunt and can usually recover off the damage it takes with Roost. He can induce sleep with Hypnosis.

Galladehttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/475m.png
In the early days of UU testing, people feared two Pokemon that would impact the UU metagame: Gallade and Staraptor. Gallade can Swords Dance then proceed to sweep with his vast movepool, including Close Combat, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak and Stone Edge. He has many other options and with 766 Attack after a Swords Dance and Life Orb. Not many Pokemon enjoy taking a hit from Gallade.

Abomasnowhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/460m.png
His ability is perfect for Hail teams, and Abomasnow has decent support options. He can SubSeed and can use his two STAB 120 power moves to crush other Pokemon. A very handy Pokemon, and it helps Walrein a lot.

Raikouhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame2/243m.png
CM Raikou is nearly unstoppable in UU with 115 base Special Attack and Speed and a respectable 100 base Special Defense. Add on Calm Mind and Leftovers and it becomes really hard to beat him on the Special side. His movepool isn't very good but he doesn't need it when he can totally destroy most UU Pokemon with what he has.


Remember that the tier status of all of these suspects is not based on how hard they are to counter or easy to revenge kill, but by the three possible characteristics listed in this post. No other justifications for supporting a ban will be accepted (though you don't have to refer to them specifically as long as your response is relevant to the characteristic the suspect in question has been nominated for).

Feel free to discuss

MartinNFLFalcon February 20th, 2009 4:05 PM

I agree at the staraptor.
Unless you have a Focus Sashed poke with Thunderbolt than you're set.
Brave Bird demolishes almost anything...

Pokedra February 20th, 2009 7:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinNFLFalcon (Post 4370595)
I agree at the staraptor.
Unless you have a Focus Sashed poke with Thunderbolt than you're set.
Brave Bird demolishes almost anything...

True, I'll bet my money that he'll be BL.

wolf February 20th, 2009 7:47 PM

Now, I agree with all of these. Idk about Crobat though since I haven't seen one on a UU team yet. Staraptor might be so unlucky to be dumped into OU, but I extremely doubt it. Abomasnow is also a massive threat... I have to say that Gallade has done huge amounts of damage to my team lately since I see them around on almost every team. Isn't Shaymin also a suspect, or did it lose the noms?

. February 20th, 2009 7:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolflare (Post 4371349)
Now, I agree with all of these. Idk about Crobat though since I haven't seen one on a UU team yet. Staraptor might be so unlucky to be dumped into OU, but I extremely doubt it. Abomasnow is also a massive threat... I have to say that Gallade has done huge amounts of damage to my team lately since I see them around on almost every team. Isn't Shaymin also a suspect, or did it lose the noms?

Crobat is a fantastic lead. Fastest Taunt, Brave Bird, Roost, and U-Turn let him basically mess up any early game strategy.

wolf February 20th, 2009 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4371381)
Crobat is a fantastic lead. Fastest Taunt, Brave Bird, Roost, and U-Turn let him basically mess up any early game strategy.

Of course, I just haven't countered it yet. So, yes, I agree to that he should be moved to BL. Too bad he lost Hypnosis due to Pt's downfall of accuracy. Even if he is bulky, that would make the set even more dangerous.

Anti February 20th, 2009 8:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolflare (Post 4371391)
Of course, I just haven't countered it yet. So, yes, I agree to that he should be moved to BL. Too bad he lost Hypnosis due to Pt's downfall of accuracy. Even if he is bulky, that would make the set even more dangerous.

So you are taking a side without having ever encountered it? Doesn't that sound like a (pardon the pun) suspect way of going about this? ._.

Staraptor I doubt a little bit though. Brave Bird is insane, but it basically kills Staraptor in the process (especially if SR is in play). Usually it died before it could do anything to my team, which isn't exactly super fast and powerful. The CB set is worn down incredibly easily, but it's pretty much impossible to deny that if it gets in, it could massacre you. Still, it does have to predict right, and taking 25% damage just to mispredict can get it killed really easily. I find it a little overrated to be honest =\

Volkner's Apprentice February 20th, 2009 8:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4371414)
So you are taking a side without having ever encountered it? Doesn't that sound like a (pardon the pun) suspect way of going about this? ._.

Staraptor I doubt a little bit though. Brave Bird is insane, but it basically kills Staraptor in the process (especially if SR is in play). Usually it died before it could do anything to my team, which isn't exactly super fast and powerful. The CB set is worn down incredibly easily, but it's pretty much impossible to deny that if it gets in, it could massacre you. Still, it does have to predict right, and taking 25% damage just to mispredict can get it killed really easily. I find it a little overrated to be honest =\

I actually agree with that. I've run into a pile of Raptors, none of which gave me INSANE trouble, and they tend to kill themselves, like you said. But hey, in my opinion the more they add to BL, the better. (At this stage I mean; I know the whole point of the change-up was to push down some BL folks and they will do just that, I just think UU is crowded at the moment.)

Registeel is the one Regi I'd bump up. I'm finding it particularly tough to take down, yet I haven't encountered the other Regis as much.

Shaymin should most definitely be on the list.

wolf February 20th, 2009 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4371414)
So you are taking a side without having ever encountered it? Doesn't that sound like a (pardon the pun) suspect way of going about this? ._.

I have used it as a lead, watched battles with it going against another team, looked up movesets on it. I just never seemed to run into it on battle. I wasn't really saying that I am taking the side entirely. I just know that it has been a threat to many set up leads. I have only battled it in BL and OU the time before it happened. I already experienced battling it, just not in UU.

. February 20th, 2009 8:36 PM

Okay, out of all the Suspects, I feel the only one really deserving of being moved up is Staraptor. Gallade is good and all, but anything faster than it with a strong move (read: Staraptor, Sharpedo, Scyther, etc...) murder it in a single hit. Shadow Sneak is good for Ghosts and all, but it's no Sucker Punch, meaning it won't be doing a good deal of damage after a Swords Dance to neutral targets. Night Slash is another option, and honestly, the better option. Gallade has the bulk to live even Specs Shadow Balls from Mismagius, so uh, the extra power comes in handy against Slowbro and co. (I deserve a medal for that rhyme).

Staraptor's realistic counter is Luxray. Luxray with Intimidate is the safest bet, as an Adamant Choice Banded Brave Bird can only muster 28%, although the rare Double Edge 2HKOs it with Stealth Rock 99% of the time. Even Regirock, Slowbro, Relicanth, Steelix, Miltank -- All 2HKOed.

Crobat is an excellent support lead, but I doubt it should be moved up. Sure, it's damn good, but it isn't breaking anything, and can certainly be exploited with its Ice, Rock, and Electric weakness.

Pokedra February 20th, 2009 8:43 PM

Quote:

Okay, out of all the Suspects, I feel the only one really deserving of being moved up is Staraptor. Gallade is good and all, but anything faster than it with a strong move (read: Staraptor, Sharpedo, Scyther, etc...) murder it in a single hit. Shadow Sneak is good for Ghosts and all, but it's no Sucker Punch, meaning it won't be doing a good deal of damage after a Swords Dance to neutral targets. Night Slash is another option, and honestly, the better option. Gallade has the bulk to live even Specs Shadow Balls from Mismagius, so uh, the extra power comes in handy against Slowbro and co. (I deserve a medal for that rhyme).
Yeah Staraptor should be moved up. Gallade is slow but not many Pokemon enjoy getting hit when it Sword Dances but yeah its Speed lets it down but it proably will be moved up.

Quote:

Staraptor's realistic counter is Luxray. Luxray with Intimidate is the safest bet, as an Adamant Choice Banded Brave Bird can only muster 28%, although the rare Double Edge 2HKOs it with Stealth Rock 99% of the time. Even Regirock, Slowbro, Relicanth, Steelix, Miltank -- All 2HKOed.
Yeah, Luxray makes a pretty decent counter.




Quote:

Crobat is an excellent support lead, but I doubt it should be moved up. Sure, it's damn good, but it isn't breaking anything, and can certainly be exploited with its Ice, Rock, and Electric weakness.
Yeah, but he has Taunt, U-Turn and can put things to sleep plus that insane speed. I don't realy care about Crobat really.

EDIT : Oh yeah I'm not too sure about Shaymin. He wasn't listed as a Top Suspect but I doubt he's far behind.

Anti February 20th, 2009 8:56 PM

Are we still talking about counters? Does that ever go away? >_>

Yeah Staraptor doesn't have any good counters, but I sure as hell don't care considering that Flying and Normal are two pretty poor attack types. The problem I have in general with banning Choice Banders for being overpowered is that they have to predict perfectly to be the amazing force that people say they are, and that is nearly impossible. for that reason I find it being "overpowered" to be borderlining on theorymon when it's really easy to outsmart. Even if you are outsmarted, it can't take a hit from anything and can only really come in on revenge or from Earthquake. Staraptor is still incredibly easy to wear down and kill if you ask me. and you have to remember, CBers have to get in safely to do damage, and Staraptor is frail. very frail. Like I said, EQ is all it's coming in on (and maybe a Missy Shadow Ball or something).

Raikou has been tolerable for me but very effective nonetheless. Its Speed it really devastating.

. February 20th, 2009 9:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4371485)
Yeah, but he has Taunt, U-Turn and can put things to sleep plus that insane speed. I don't realy care about Crobat really.

EDIT : Oh yeah I'm not too sure about Shaymin. He wasn't listed as a Top Suspect but I doubt he's far behind.

Shaymin is definately good, I'm a tad surprised Froslass is a suspect, but Shaymin isn't =[.

Brave Bird + Hypnosis is illegal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4371525)
Are we still talking about counters? Does that ever go away? >_>

It doesn't

Yeah Staraptor doesn't have any good counters, but I sure as hell don't care considering that Flying and Normal are two pretty poor attack types.

Everything that resists Flying/Normal is 2HKOed by Close Combat =]

The problem I have in general with banning Choice Banders for being overpowered is that they have to predict perfectly to be the amazing force that people say they are, and that is nearly impossible. for that reason I find it being "overpowered" to be borderlining on theorymon when it's really easy to outsmart. Even if you are outsmarted, it can't take a hit from anything and can only really come in on revenge or from Earthquake. Staraptor is still incredibly easy to wear down and kill if you ask me. and you have to remember, CBers have to get in safely to do damage, and Staraptor is frail. very frail. Like I said, EQ is all it's coming in on (and maybe a Missy Shadow Ball or something).

True, however, if it just comes in, like after something goes down/comes in from U-Turn, the OPPONENT also has to play a guessing game. Will it Brave Bird, will it Close Combat, will it Double Edge, will it Sub...There are numerous ways for Staraptor to kill an opponent, and the same logic that "a person has to predict when using a Pokemon for attacking" can be used for "a person has to predict when using a Pokemon for defending"

Raikou has been tolerable for me but very effective nonetheless. Its Speed it really devastating.

Chansey says hello

Yep

Lila February 20th, 2009 9:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4370250)
[
There's got to reasons for them to be too powerful for UU right? Here are some reason why.

Staraptorhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/398m.png
Staraptor is a powerhouse in UU. Its good base stats of 120 Attack and 100 Speed makes him both fast and incredibly powerful. Staraptor also has Intimidate which somewhats helps its paltry Defense.

CB Staraptor is so powerful nearly all of UU is 2HKO'ed by it (barring defensive Rotom and Luxray). Steel-types can't wall it because it has Close Combat. Brave Bird is an extremely powerful attack that will pummel anything that doesn't resist it. Return offers a move that is still powerful but doesn't has recoil damage.

This is probably the one pokemon that I 100% think should be moved up to BL. Yes, Staraptor does hit itself with recoil, but it still can do an incredible amount of damage in that time, and there aren't many counters for it. Carrying a pokemon with Ice Shard has helped me, but it's incredibly risky since it doesn't knock him out all the time - and since Staraptors usually have Close Combat, that's good bye to the Ice-type that tried to counter him!

I've dealt with a lot of these while playing in UU, and they've caused a lot of trouble for me, regardless of the team I have used. : /


Froslasshttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/478f.png
Froslass is an awesome lead with Base 110 Speed and Focus Sash she can nearly always lay down one layer of Spikes. Immunity to Fake Out and Destiny Bond means she can usually take out another Pokemon as well as setting spikes up.

I think Froslass is a great pokemon, but honestly I do not think she should be moved up. She's incredibly frail, and predictable. Almost every intelligent opponent I've faced has been able to predict when Froslass is going to use Destiny Bond. I've encountered a lot of SR usage in UU, too, which is not good for Froslass. Sure, she can get a layer of Spikes down most of the time, but does that really mean she's overpowered for the tier, especially when you can just rapid spin the spikes away relatively easily?

I think Froslass is a threat to the UU metagame, but I don't think she's too powerful for it. Snow Cloak can get annoying with Froslass, but the majority of Froslass that I encounter aren't even on Hail teams.


Crobathttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/169m.png
Crobat is another great lead, it can outrun all of UU nearly (barring Choice Scarf) with its insane 130 Speed. Crobat can stop Pokemon setting up with Taunt and can usually recover off the damage it takes with Roost. He can induce sleep with Hypnosis.

I've encountered tons of these in UU, too. Not as many as some of the other pokemon listed here, but enough to have an experienced opinion about them. Personally, Crobat doesn't give me that much trouble. Yes, he's incredibly fast, knows Taunt, Hypnosis and U-turn, but I don't think he's that much of a threat. He's relatively frail, and Hypnosis doesn't have great accuracy, anyway.

Perhaps I'm a little biased on this one since much of the time when I encounter Crobat leads they start off with Taunt, thinking that my pokemon will try to use a non-attacking move, only to get a big hit to the face. Sure, Crobat is a pain at times, but he's incredibly predictable, and isn't that sturdy. Pokemon like Staraptor have the same move-set most of the time, but in my opinion they have the stats and lack of good counters to pull it off.


Galladehttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/475m.png
In the early days of UU testing, people feared two Pokemon that would impact the UU metagame: Gallade and Staraptor. Gallade can Swords Dance then proceed to sweep with his vast movepool, including Close Combat, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak and Stone Edge. He has many other options and with 766 Attack after a Swords Dance and Life Orb. Not many Pokemon enjoy taking a hit from Gallade.

Surprisingly, I haven't dealt with Gallade that much, despite everyone making it out like he's an incredibly overused pokemon in the UU tier. Anyway, my knowledge about him is limited since I haven't battled him too many tries, but I'll give my opinion anyway.

As said by people above, Gallade is very slow. Shadow Sneak is a priority move and can deal with ghosts, but it honestly doesn't do much good, since it doesn't have STAB and isn't a very powerful move anyway. Gallade can be a nuisance if you give it too much time to set up - but so are many pokemon. I found him relatively easy to deal with, but I haven't dealt with him on many occasions... but I have seen what he can do by watching battles, so I do think he deserves to be on the suspect list, and to be tested.


Abomasnowhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/460m.png
His ability is perfect for Hail teams, and Abomasnow has decent support options. He can SubSeed and can use his two STAB 120 power moves to crush other Pokemon. A very handy Pokemon, and it helps Walrein a lot.

Perhaps I'm biased on this one since I love Abomasnow on my Hail team, but I really don't think Abomasnow is overpowered. It's slow, and its stats aren't amazing - but you have to take into account that Abomasnow has seven weaknesses, one of which is a double weakness. He's incredibly easy to take out, and is not good 90% of the time for switching in, unless you somehow know your opponent's move-set.

His ability is very powerful, but I don't think that he's as overpowered as people make him out to be. While my Abomasnow is very useful on my team, I don't really use him that often other than for starting Hail, or finishing off a pokemon with Ice Shard. I've been up against other Abomasnow, too, and they're incredibly easy to take out with one hit unless they're running protect or managed to use Substitute before you attacked. He is a very powerful pokemon, but again, I don't think that he's too powerful. Also, with the abundance of SR that I've noticed in the UU tier, Abomasnow is not that strong.


Raikouhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame2/243m.png
CM Raikou is nearly unstoppable in UU with 115 base Special Attack and Speed and a respectable 100 base Special Defense. Add on Calm Mind and Leftovers and it becomes really hard to beat him on the Special side. His movepool isn't very good but he doesn't need it when he can totally destroy most UU Pokemon with what he has.


This pokemon can be incredibly annoying to deal with. He's fast, has strong special attack and special defense, and decent HP. His only low stat is defense, but it really isn't that low for a pokemon with three high stats. He only has one weakness, too, so most of the time when a Raikou switches in on me I have to switch out, either because I know he'll be able to knock out my pokemon with one hit, or because my pokemon can't do any damage to it.

Of course, when you switch out against Raikou, you give it a free turn to set up, either by using Substitute, or Calm Mind. I've been able to kill Raikou before, but it always proves to be an enormous pain unless I manage to status it before it knocks my pokemon out or has the Substitute up. Perhaps he doesn't need to move up to BL, but I think that he needs to be very thoroughly tested.



So, to sum it up, here are the pokemon that I think that deserve to either be moved up to BL, or very carefully tested: Staraptor, Gallade, Raikou

There are my opinions, in bold. :)

Anti February 20th, 2009 10:19 PM

I'm just saying but Blissey walls Soul Dew Latios in OUs, I don't see how Chansey walling Raikou is a whole lot different =/ I know you can wall it with Registeel and Chansey (the former taking a lot of damage in the process though), but it's a pain in the neck to stop without either of them, and it's basically impossible to revenge kill unless you sacrifice a Choice Scarfer to break its Sub and whatnot. this isn't OUs where Raikou had Heatran and Tyranitar to lol at it - this is UUs and it's really a very good sweeper. Is it good enough to be banned? I don't know to be honest. But wiriting it off because "Chansey says hello" is utterly ridiculous.

I know exactly what Staraptor KOs, it just doesn't matter to me when it is insanely hard to get in to do the damage it wants to, and it has to murder itself to do that damage (since it relies on Brave Bird for basically all of its kills except for those on the Steels and Rock-types). CC is really helpful for them, but again, it's a guessing game, and Staraptor is going getting 2 or three chances to do damage (sometimes less). It's not CBChomp where SR did nothing basically and it could take repeated assaults - Staraptor has the defenses of Gengar.

I agree that the prediction argument goes both ways, but I still think it applies, but again, Staraptor has to get into the battle in one piece in order to pose a significant threat (and even U-Turning to it is insanely risky). Staraptor is kind of like a worse Garchomp. Garchomp could at least get in the battle and not take ridiculous SR damage the whole time. Staraptor's ability to sweep is incredibly and I would be foolish to deny it, but it never gets the opportunity to...and when it does, it often has to kill itself doing so. Threatening? Absolutely. Broken? Absolutely not. Staraptor can do a ton of damage, but it dies so fast...its impact can be huge even in a short amount of time, but I find the likes of Shaymin and even Raikou to be much more troublesome than Staraptor. Oh, one more thing...you can just use a death fodder to scout its move (and I don't mean full health Espeon, I mean 20% Milotic). It has been a really useful strategy not only against Staraptor but CBers in general. Staraptor is especially hampered because of SR and ghuifgkfjghks defenses though. Another way to rob it of 25% health is to predict it switching in once it's been out (which is seriously the easiest thing in the world to do) and send in something that will scare it away as it switches in. Not foolproof but certainly useful. Ugh, SR screws over Staraptor so badly.

Honestly, it's kind of hard to argue that Staraptor should not be banned because on paper it's absolutely terrifying...but from the "eye test" this thing is a lot like what Salamence is to OUs. Actually, there are a lot of similarities (and quite a few differences I admit, lol). I know I've only mentioned its SR weakness and paper thin defenses a million times, but it really does make all the difference, especially with bulkier alternatives like Gallade and Shaymin waiting to be added to your team.

And I don't care if Staraptor doesn't have counters. I care if it overcentralizes the metagame (which I haven't seen AT ALL to be honest...I don't think many teams would change much regardless of whether or not it was allowed, and how they play I also doubt would change really at all) and if it passes the "eye test". "It can 2HKO almost everything in OUs!" is theorymon as far as I'm concerned since the key word is can, and it rarely has done any significant damage to my team (whose Staraptor defense is Registeel + Spiritomb btw).

Pokedra February 21st, 2009 1:14 AM

Maybe you've had no trouble but some people really have trouble with Staraptor.

. February 21st, 2009 1:49 AM

Quote:

I'm just saying but Blissey walls Soul Dew Latios in OUs, I don't see how Chansey walling Raikou is a whole lot different =/ I know you can wall it with Registeel and Chansey (the former taking a lot of damage in the process though), but it's a pain in the neck to stop without either of them, and it's basically impossible to revenge kill unless you sacrifice a Choice Scarfer to break its Sub and whatnot. this isn't OUs where Raikou had Heatran and Tyranitar to lol at it - this is UUs and it's really a very good sweeper. Is it good enough to be banned? I don't know to be honest. But wiriting it off because "Chansey says hello" is utterly ridiculous.
Fantastic ability to sense a joke.


Quote:

I know exactly what Staraptor KOs, it just doesn't matter to me when it is insanely hard to get in to do the damage it wants to, and it has to murder itself to do that damage (since it relies on Brave Bird for basically all of its kills except for those on the Steels and Rock-types). CC is really helpful for them, but again, it's a guessing game, and Staraptor is going getting 2 or three chances to do damage (sometimes less). It's not CBChomp where SR did nothing basically and it could take repeated assaults - Staraptor has the defenses of Gengar.
Uh, you're REALLY exaggerating the recoil damage from Brave Bird. The standard Staraptor has 312 HP, when using Brave Bird on max HP / max Defense Slowbro, Staraptor takes 81 damage from recoil assuming it rolls maximum damage. 81 is not even half of Staraptor's total HP, in fact, it's not even a third of its total HP. Staraptor deals 246 damage to the standard Spiritomb if rolling max damage. A third of that is 82. Staraptor can do that twice, and only receive 164 damage total, a little over half its HP. Now, you may think "It's killing itself, it can't sweep", which is wrong, since now Staraptor has killed a wall on the opponents team. It's served its purpose.

Quote:

I agree that the prediction argument goes both ways, but I still think it applies, but again, Staraptor has to get into the battle in one piece in order to pose a significant threat (and even U-Turning to it is insanely risky). Staraptor is kind of like a worse Garchomp. Garchomp could at least get in the battle and not take ridiculous SR damage the whole time.
The same could be said for Salamence, Gyarados, Zapdos, and Dragonite, yet they all remain prominent threats in OU.

Quote:

Staraptor's ability to sweep is incredibly and I would be foolish to deny it, but it never gets the opportunity to...and when it does, it often has to kill itself doing so. Threatening? Absolutely. Broken? Absolutely not.
If Staraptor can kill 3-4 Pokemon on your team, I'd call that kind of ridiculous. Let's not forget it doesn't only use Brave Bird. It can still use Return, which deals a hefty amount to everything that doesn't resist it, and kills fragile sweepers such as Medicham, Blaziken, and co.

Quote:

Staraptor can do a ton of damage, but it dies so fast...its impact can be huge even in a short amount of time, but I find the likes of Shaymin and even Raikou to be much more troublesome than Staraptor.
Unlike Staraptor, Raikou and Shaymin have counters.

Quote:

Oh, one more thing...you can just use a death fodder to scout its move (and I don't mean full health Espeon, I mean 20% Milotic). It has been a really useful strategy not only against Staraptor but CBers in general.
Okay, same could be said for any CBer.

Quote:

Staraptor is especially hampered because of SR and ghuifgkfjghks defenses though. Another way to rob it of 25% health is to predict it switching in once it's been out (which is seriously the easiest thing in the world to do) and send in something that will scare it away as it switches in. Not foolproof but certainly useful. Ugh, SR screws over Staraptor so badly.
This is certainly true, there's nothing I can disagree with there.

Quote:

Honestly, it's kind of hard to argue that Staraptor should not be banned because on paper it's absolutely terrifying...but from the "eye test" this thing is a lot like what Salamence is to OUs. Actually, there are a lot of similarities (and quite a few differences I admit, lol). I know I've only mentioned its SR weakness and paper thin defenses a million times, but it really does make all the difference, especially with bulkier alternatives like Gallade and Shaymin waiting to be added to your team.
There still is literally no counter to Salamence, if only because his versatility is too damn sheer. Staraptor has the versatility of a brain dead chimp, yet its sheer power kills practically everything that doesn't resist its moveset. I guess the same could be said about DD Mence, but things like Hippowdon and Cresselia can live DD boosted Life Orb Outrages and OHKO assuming Salamence isn't running Yache.

Quote:

And I don't care if Staraptor doesn't have counters. I care if it overcentralizes the metagame (which I haven't seen AT ALL to be honest...I don't think many teams would change much regardless of whether or not it was allowed, and how they play I also doubt would change really at all) and if it passes the "eye test". "It can 2HKO almost everything in OUs!" is theorymon as far as I'm concerned since the key word is can, and it rarely has done any significant damage to my team (whose Staraptor defense is Registeel + Spiritomb btw).
My teem beets garchomp its cloyster / cresselia / hippowdon / mamoswine / weavile / scarfchomp. i hvae no troublez wit garchomp unban it it not brok3n.

If you take that seriously I'll Brave Bird your face.

SkyPioneer February 21st, 2009 7:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walrein (Post 4372422)
Froslass :D...Abomasnow :D...
Let's ask this question: are Abnomasnow+Froslass even more broken for UU? If so, we only have another reason to promote both to BL.
Gallade beeing UU is ridicilous. I swept Ubers with it once, great typing+great movepool+able to CB, CS or SD+STAB CC=great Pokemon. Definitly one of my favs, if it was me to decide Gallade would've been OU.
I'm suprised Lapras, Milotic and Walrein aren't going BL. Gardevoir (Gallade's younger sis) should also go BL. Arcanine also seems a bit overpowered for UU.

Lol, I love it when you post, just so I can read things like "Gallade's younger sis", lol.
But on the subject. Having two ice types means that a third of your team is SR weak, and SR is quite common in UU, from what I've seen.
Anyway, just because you played with ubers with gallade does not prove a thing. Quagsire and Parasect are actually quite powerful in ubers when played correctly but that doesn't mean that they're any better in their own tier.
As for Lapras, Milotic and Walrein, care for some explanation? Same for Arcanine.

but oooooh i cant bear 2 c my luvly littl ice princesss go 2 bl !!!! <3
Just kidding, dude. :P

Dark Azelf February 21st, 2009 8:08 AM

Yeah i deleted that post since it had nothing to back up claims. He is on really thin ice (lolpun), but seriously stop posting garbage "Walrein", there was nothing to contribute to the topic in your post and you know it, you didnt even back your claims up so how can you expect to be taken seriously? If you post something that awful again ill just infract you, you have been told countless times. Please learn how to S+M =/

Im surprized Ludicolo isnt on this list because a few battlers have been complaining about it lately. Its very versatile and it can hit from both ends of the spectrum (SD Ludi is no joke and hits VERY hard, especially in the rain) and can also run other sets like sub seed to screw you up. In addition its type coverage is great and thanks to that unique typing its a real pain to get rid of.

Having said that, i would love to see a weather ban in uu (another point that has been brought up before by a few battlers). Its very centralizing and the pokemon that can be abused with each type of the respective weather is kinda stupid.



Also you might want to add Froslass broken ability to "reasons" too, because as was with Garchomp, that DOES contribute to it being suspect.

Shen February 21st, 2009 9:54 AM

Staraptor is just the Salamence of UU.
Froslass is only a real pain in Hail were hax screws you over. Destiny Bond is annoying though, can't we just ban that?
Crobat and Gallade should go up, although the Hypnosis drop is painful.
Abomasnow REALLY needs to be out of UU. Stat-wise, it is average, movepool-wise it's average, typing-wise it's pretty bad. But the auto-hail is the killer. Hail teams seem to be dominate UU and they rely on the snowman here. To my knowledge, there is no counter to a Hail Team in UU that cannot be easily checked. Moving up Abomasnow isn't really moving up a single Pokemon, but moving up the most effective Hail team, which is what UU needs.

Anti February 21st, 2009 10:09 AM

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Originally Posted by . (Post 4372231)
Fantastic ability to sense a joke.

=/

Uh, you're REALLY exaggerating the recoil damage from Brave Bird. The standard Staraptor has 312 HP, when using Brave Bird on max HP / max Defense Slowbro, Staraptor takes 81 damage from recoil assuming it rolls maximum damage. 81 is not even half of Staraptor's total HP, in fact, it's not even a third of its total HP. Staraptor deals 246 damage to the standard Spiritomb if rolling max damage. A third of that is 82. Staraptor can do that twice, and only receive 164 damage total, a little over half its HP. Now, you may think "It's killing itself, it can't sweep", which is wrong, since now Staraptor has killed a wall on the opponents team. It's served its purpose.

I know it only does a third, but something with 80 base HP (a pretty standard amount) has 301 HP minimum, which rips off 100 HP, and SR rips off 78 HP. That's taking off more than half its health, and considering what it probably will have to go through to get into the ring, it pretty much does kill itself.

The same could be said for Salamence, Gyarados, Zapdos, and Dragonite, yet they all remain prominent threats in OU.

Yeah, Staraptor is a prominent threat, but like Staraptor, I really doesn't have any trouble with Gyarados, Zapdos, and Dragonite (Salamence is tricky but w/e lol).

If Staraptor can kill 3-4 Pokemon on your team, I'd call that kind of ridiculous. Let's not forget it doesn't only use Brave Bird. It can still use Return, which deals a hefty amount to everything that doesn't resist it, and kills fragile sweepers such as Medicham, Blaziken, and co.



Unlike Staraptor, Raikou and Shaymin have counters.

rofl. I'm just curious, but where is your "Salamence is Uber" thread? I have yet to find a legit CBMence counter. What's so different here? "It has no counters" isn't the definition of Uber and you know it. This suspect test is based off of three characteristics (one for support, defense, and offense) and under none of the three is counters mentioned. Let's have a look, shall we?

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Significant portion of teams? I don't think so. I won't deny its ability to take out 1 or 2 pretty easily given the right circumstances (as in it comes in on CBGolem's Earthquake or something along those lines). With little effort? Again, I'm a little "eh" on this, because Staraptor's user has to be a predicting machine and again, it can't get itself killed.


Okay, same could be said for any CBer.

I even said that. But not every CBer takes so damage from getting in and sometimes from trying to get its kills.

This is certainly true, there's nothing I can disagree with there.

^_^

There still is literally no counter to Salamence, if only because his versatility is too damn sheer. Staraptor has the versatility of a brain dead chimp, yet its sheer power kills practically everything that doesn't resist its moveset. I guess the same could be said about DD Mence, but things like Hippowdon and Cresselia can live DD boosted Life Orb Outrages and OHKO assuming Salamence isn't running Yache.

Salamence's sheer power does the same as Staraptor's with a Choice Band or even Choice Specs. It's probably OU's best sweeper for the reasons we both have mentioned, and is a lot like Staraptor except for versatility. But "SR" is basically the counter to any Salamence Ubers argument. Staraptor kind of reminds me of Salamence was what I was getting at.

My teem beets garchomp its cloyster / cresselia / hippowdon / mamoswine / weavile / scarfchomp. i hvae no troublez wit garchomp unban it it not brok3n.

Mine didn't and my Garchomp defense was Sub/CM Suicune and a Mamoswine =)

If you take that seriously I'll Brave Bird your face.

My response wasn't either so if you take that seriously I will Dragon Rush in your face and probably miss and get OHKOed by Ice Beam.

Counters =/= Offensive Characteristic. Could counters support an argument for its ban based upon that? Sure, but you have to make the connection, and no counters alone doesn't make something broken, as Salamence shows us in the next tier up.

and that's why I think Shaymin is a better candidate than Staraptor and frankly I'm surprised it isn't a suspect. It's quite bulky and can hit about anything bar Chansey hard with Seed Flare/Earth Power/Air Slash/[email protected] while being hard to kill and speedy as well.

I don't know, something that relies on a 1/3 recoil inducing move to net a lot of its kills while being weak to SR and having terrible defenses doesn't sound very broken to me.

. February 21st, 2009 2:19 PM

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I know it only does a third, but something with 80 base HP (a pretty standard amount) has 301 HP minimum, which rips off 100 HP, and SR rips off 78 HP. That's taking off more than half its health, and considering what it probably will have to go through to get into the ring, it pretty much does kill itself.



No argument here.

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Yeah, Staraptor is a prominent threat, but like Staraptor, I really doesn't have any trouble with Gyarados, Zapdos, and Dragonite (Salamence is tricky but w/e lol).


yeah dood my teem doesn hvae troublez wit garchomp they shuld unban it.

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rofl. I'm just curious, but where is your "Salamence is Uber" thread? I have yet to find a legit CBMence counter. What's so different here? "It has no counters" isn't the definition of Uber and you know it. This suspect test is based off of three characteristics (one for support, defense, and offense) and under none of the three is counters mentioned. Let's have a look, shall we?



Salamence actually has a few decent checks, Cresselia can live a DD boosted Life Orb Outrage and OHKO it with Ice Beam, Hippowdon takes physical versions decently (NOTE DECENTLY). Then there's revenge killing, but that applies to everything so let's ignore that.

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Significant portion of teams? I don't think so. I won't deny its ability to take out 1 or 2 pretty easily given the right circumstances (as in it comes in on CBGolem's Earthquake or something along those lines). With little effort? Again, I'm a little "eh" on this, because Staraptor's user has to be a predicting machine and again, it can't get itself killed.


I realize Brave Bird decimates itself, but you're going to have to be predicting over and under to take a hit from Staraptor, and a single error can lead to you losing one of your Pokemon. Say I have a Registeel out on the field, he has a Staraptor. I predict the Close Combat, but I feel that he's going to Brave Bird since I'm just a prediction freak like that. He Close Combats, my Registeel goes down. Now I bring in my Fighting resist. I scare it out.

So, what happened here? I lost a Pokemon, he killed a Pokemon. Simple as that. There's more extreme examples but that's the most basic one I could come up with, don't shoot me.

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Salamence's sheer power does the same as Staraptor's with a Choice Band or even Choice Specs. It's probably OU's best sweeper for the reasons we both have mentioned, and is a lot like Staraptor except for versatility. But "SR" is basically the counter to any Salamence Ubers argument. Staraptor kind of reminds me of Salamence was what I was getting at.


So you agree Staraptor is a monster that, if the opponent predicts wrong, can rip your throat out?

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Mine didn't and my Garchomp defense was Sub/CM Suicune and a Mamoswine =)


Ironically Electivire handles these two threats. Your team may handle Garchomp but it loses to Electivire!

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My response wasn't either so if you take that seriously I will Dragon Rush in your face and probably miss and get OHKOed by Ice Beam


Get some Wide Lenses.

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Counters =/= Offensive Characteristic. Could counters support an argument for its ban based upon that? Sure, but you have to make the connection, and no counters alone doesn't make something broken, as Salamence shows us in the next tier up.
I can't piece together what you are saying, but yes, if a Pokemon doesn't have a counter it's a step closer to being broken.

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and that's why I think Shaymin is a better candidate than Staraptor and frankly I'm surprised it isn't a suspect. It's quite bulky and can hit about anything bar Chansey hard with Seed Flare/Earth Power/Air Slash/[email protected] while being hard to kill and speedy as well.
I agree with this, Shaymin walks all over the bulky waters, since Ice Beam can't kill it in a hit, plus Shaymin outspeeds all the Water-types and 2HKOs it with ease. It's a very underrated threat (much like Mamoswine!)

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I don't know, something that relies on a 1/3 recoil inducing move to net a lot of its kills while being weak to SR and having terrible defenses doesn't sound very broken to me.
I don't know, something that relies on locking itself into a move to net a lot of kills while being weak to Stealth Rock and have mediocre speed doesn't sound threatening to me. (No, it's not Salamence or Nite, take a guess).

Anti February 21st, 2009 2:39 PM

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Originally Posted by . (Post 4373934)
Salamence actually has a few decent checks, Cresselia can live a DD boosted Life Orb Outrage and OHKO it with Ice Beam, Hippowdon takes physical versions decently (NOTE DECENTLY). Then there's revenge killing, but that applies to everything so let's ignore that.

CBMence doesn't. I don't really think DDMence is a good comparison since Staraptor doesn't get DD...but I guess that's why it's just a comparison lol.

I realize Brave Bird decimates itself, but you're going to have to be predicting over and under to take a hit from Staraptor, and a single error can lead to you losing one of your Pokemon. Say I have a Registeel out on the field, he has a Staraptor. I predict the Close Combat, but I feel that he's going to Brave Bird since I'm just a prediction freak like that. He Close Combats, my Registeel goes down. Now I bring in my Fighting resist. I scare it out.

So, what happened here? I lost a Pokemon, he killed a Pokemon. Simple as that. There's more extreme examples but that's the most basic one I could come up with, don't shoot me.

No, I see what you're saying, but it rarely gets more than two opportunities to do that. And it has to predict right or it doesn't do anything. If it was Ground/Flying instead of Normal/Flygin and 30 more base SDef then it would probably be an easy ban. But it gets worn down so fast that the situation you presented, while perfectly reasonable, doesn't pop up much.

So you agree Staraptor is a monster that, if the opponent predicts wrong, can rip your throat out?

Yes.

I can't piece together what you are saying, but yes, if a Pokemon doesn't have a counter it's a step closer to being broken.

It depends though. CB Dragonite (despite RaikouLover's staunch support of it) isn't exactly a great set so it obviously isn't going to be banned. I mean having no counters doesn't hurt, but that alone doesn't make Staraptor even close to broken.

And sorry about rehashing Dragonite and Salamence but they're the only two good comparisons.


I don't know, something that relies on locking itself into a move to net a lot of kills while being weak to Stealth Rock and have mediocre speed doesn't sound threatening to me. (No, it's not Salamence or Nite, take a guess).

Glaceon? idk lol

Even though Staraptor can be terrifying, remember that it has to be with little effort (which is hardly true since it takes a convoy to get it in without taking 45963467935% damage), but more importantly, SR beats it down and its main attack is basically a suicide move. It's not like Explosion or anything, but it can have that effect at times. also, it can't sweep through a significant portion of teams, a) because it's banded and, b) because it dies in a heartbeat.

Staraptor has done damage to my team before but never where I've said "man, this thing should be banned" because it ends up dying before it can unleash the terror we both agree it can unleash.

I know I'm rehashing my argument here but I don't think Staraptor fits the offensive characteristic as well as even Shaymin. Shaymin is the best mid-game sweeper I have ever used. It just takes out EVERYTHING and doesn't die in the process.

Sebastien Loeb February 21st, 2009 2:57 PM

Mah, Crobat can be us in UU as Abomasnow in fact they are fundamental for based team on hail or other climatic changes, instead Raikou in UU is scandalous, with Choice Specs, or worse with CalmKou to whole metagame is devastated.

. February 21st, 2009 3:00 PM

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CBMence doesn't. I don't really think DDMence is a good comparison since Staraptor doesn't get DD...but I guess that's why it's just a comparison lol.


CB Outrage does 2HKO Cresselia, that I admit, but it requires Stealth Rock...ugh I'm really starting to hate that move. Otherwise, both of them have an "eh" chance of being 3HKOed.

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No, I see what you're saying, but it rarely gets more than two opportunities to do that. And it has to predict right or it doesn't do anything. If it was Ground/Flying instead of Normal/Flygin and 30 more base SDef then it would probably be an easy ban. But it gets worn down so fast that the situation you presented, while perfectly reasonable, doesn't pop up much.


Those two opprotunities could destroy you if your prediction is off.

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It depends though. CB Dragonite (despite RaikouLover's staunch support of it) isn't exactly a great set so it obviously isn't going to be banned. I mean having no counters doesn't hurt, but that alone doesn't make Staraptor even close to broken.


It isn't a great set because CB Mence outclasses it 100% of the time lol.


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And sorry about rehashing Dragonite and Salamence but they're the only two good comparisons.


No problem.

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Even though Staraptor can be terrifying, remember that it has to be with little effort (which is hardly true since it takes a convoy to get it in without taking 45963467935% damage), but more importantly, SR beats it down and its main attack is basically a suicide move. It's not like Explosion or anything, but it can have that effect at times. also, it can't sweep through a significant portion of teams, a) because it's banded and, b) because it dies in a heartbeat
This is why LonelyNess's SubRoost set is so unexpected.

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Staraptor has done damage to my team before but never where I've said "man, this thing should be banned" because it ends up dying before it can unleash the terror we both agree it can unleash.
yeh dood 1 tiem a garchomp ohkod my cloyster wit crit outrage but i was like "lol u suck, i can beet you" it shuldnt be banned.


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I know I'm rehashing my argument here but I don't think Staraptor fits the offensive characteristic as well as even Shaymin. Shaymin is the best mid-game sweeper I have ever used. It just takes out EVERYTHING and doesn't die in the process.
Eat Calm Mind Regice.


The thing I was talking about is Rayquaza by the way, the second (or third) strongest Pokemon in the whole gaem x]

Anti February 21st, 2009 3:19 PM

Yeah, two opportunities could destroy you. You can say that about a lot of CBers that have very few counters (Gallade comes to mind but you don't want that banned which I am confused by). But seriously, the chance to destroy you just oozes theorymon. A chance doesn't usually mean that it actually does. And a low chance of taking out one or two Pokemon isn't going to convince me to get Staraptor banned. BTW, you can throw Rotom on your team if you fear it THAT much. It's not like you're required to fear it and try to predict around it.

The thing about SubRoost is that it has to set up. It's a good way to stop teams that try to status it, but it's no more broken than CB Staraptor (and I know you didn't say it was, just saying).

But this is all avoiding what determines this: the offensive characteristic. Can you tell me that Staraptor can sweep through a significant portion of teams with little effort? the last part really shoots down it getting banned imo, and that can shoot down the first part to some extent. I just don't see how, with that definition of Uber/BL (which I like a lot btw), you can call Staraptor a broken Pokemon.

. February 21st, 2009 3:28 PM

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Yeah, two opportunities could destroy you. You can say that about a lot of CBers that have very few counters (Gallade comes to mind but you don't want that banned which I am confused by).
Gallade does have a counter in Spiritomb, so I'm comfortable with him in UU.

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But seriously, the chance to destroy you just oozes theorymon. A chance doesn't usually mean that it actually does.
I was basing my argument over what you said ^__^ You're guilty of using theorymon too then.

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And a low chance of taking out one or two Pokemon isn't going to convince me to get Staraptor banned. BTW, you can throw Rotom on your team if you fear it THAT much. It's not like you're required to fear it and try to predict around it.
Rotom?

CB Brave Bird vs. Max HP / Max Def Rotom: 42%-50%

2HKOs 93% of the time with Stealth Rock.

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The thing about SubRoost is that it has to set up. It's a good way to stop teams that try to status it, but it's no more broken than CB Staraptor (and I know you didn't say it was, just saying).
Tell that to LonelyNess!

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But this is all avoiding what determines this: the offensive characteristic. Can you tell me that Staraptor can sweep through a significant portion of teams with little effort?
Yes, I've seen it, I've done it, I've been a victim of it. It's all too easy with its great speed and its Brave Bird. Of course, I hate using examples based of my experiances, which is why I was making fun of you earlier with that "my teem is garchomp proof" :P

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the last part really shoots down it getting banned imo, and that can shoot down the first part to some extent. I just don't see how, with that definition of Uber/BL (which I like a lot btw), you can call Staraptor a broken Pokemon.
I'm tired of arguing for my point. Read my other arguments for the answer =(

Anti February 21st, 2009 3:40 PM

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Originally Posted by . (Post 4374171)
Gallade does have a counter in Spiritomb, so I'm comfortable with him in UU.

rofl, so that all of a sudden means that Gallade can't sweep a significant portion of other teams with little effort because it has one counter? You're joking, right? Trust me, I could come up with 10 centralized Staraptor counters if you really want (defensive Choice Scarf Milotic is a go!) If you're not going to follow the definition of Uber/BL then you're wasting your time posting in this thread, because having one counter doesn't mean you're all-of-a-sudden not broken. That's just ridiculous.

I was basing my argument over what you said ^__^ You're guilty of using theorymon too then.

I guess so, but if you need theorymon to prove it's broken then it clearly isn't. I guess you could say the same thing about my argument, but my argument shows that Staraptor can't do significant damage "with little" effort...and my other reasons prove that further.

Rotom?

CB Brave Bird vs. Max HP / Max Def Rotom: 42%-50%

2HKOs 93% of the time with Stealth Rock.

First post is full of lies

Scarf it and you have a counter!


Tell that to LonelyNess!

I'd be happy to.

Yes, I've seen it, I've done it, I've been a victim of it. It's all too easy with its great speed and its Brave Bird. Of course, I hate using examples based of my experiances, which is why I was making fun of you earlier with that "my teem is garchomp proof" :P

Quite the opposite of what I've encountered. It's never taken out more than one team member as far as I can remember...and my team hardly is prepared for it lol.

I'm tired of arguing for my point. Read my other arguments for the answer =(

Answer it directly since nothing in your argument does. Actually, your argument contradicts it since you say "well, it can devastate" and not "it will or almost always will devastate" like you would think would be the case with something that takes little effort to sweep a significant portion of the opponent's team =\

You do realize that you're only weakening your own case by bring up "counters counters counters" all the time, right? Because that's an early DP definition of Uber at best. lol

. February 21st, 2009 4:17 PM

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rofl, so that all of a sudden means that Gallade can't sweep a significant portion of other teams with little effort because it has one counter?


No, it means it can be stopped.

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You're joking, right? Trust me, I could come up with 10 centralized Staraptor counters if you really want (defensive Choice Scarf Milotic is a go!)


Joke alarm went off right there.

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If you're not going to follow the definition of Uber/BL then you're wasting your time posting in this thread, because having one counter doesn't mean you're all-of-a-sudden not broken. That's just ridiculous.


Having a counter means you can be stopped. I'm not saying Gallade isn't a tough Pokemon to handle, I know it's a monster, and I apologize if my post came off as me saying "Gallade isn't monstrous because is has a counter".

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guess so, but if you need theorymon to prove it's broken then it clearly isn't. I guess you could say the same thing about my argument, but my argument shows that Staraptor can't do significant damage "with little" effort...and my other reasons prove that further.


Some teams are prepared for Staraptor, other ones aren't. Sadly, to be prepared for it you need a good sense of prediction, and resistances/immunties to its STAB Attacks and Close Combat. Let's not forget a small bit of wrong prediction can screw up your whole plan. Registeel + Spiritomb works well, but if someone Brave Birds your Spiritomb, and it dies, now you've lost your only chances of beating it.

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Quite the opposite of what I've encountered. It's never taken out more than one team member as far as I can remember...and my team hardly is prepared for it lol.


yeah dude my team never died to garchomp we shuldn't ban it !!111

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Answer it directly since nothing in your argument does. Actually, your argument contradicts it since you say "well, it can devastate" and not "it will or almost always will devastate" like you would think would be the case with something that takes little effort to sweep a significant portion of the opponent's team =\


You're right, my argument sort of contradicts itself. ;__; I can only speak from experiance, that without a bonafied Staraptor defensive core (needs to resist BB, CC, and Return/DE), it will destroy you. Same could be said for other Pokemon, however, in order to handle Staraptor, you need more than one Pokemon (I'm gonna ignore revenge killing, since I realize it's a stupid argument). Misprediction, or overprediction from your opponent can cause you to lose Staraptor insurance, meaning you could lose. Gallade is stopped by Spiritomb, true, although it HAS the potential to 2HKO with SD boosted Stone Edge, Sneak 2HKOs it thanks to Life Orb recoil.

Anti February 21st, 2009 4:45 PM

Your post came off that way because that's exactly what you said (well, almost, I'll explain in a sec). you said:

"Gallade does have a counter in Spiritomb, so I'm comfortable with him in UU."

You are saying that you are fine with Gallade in UUs because it has one counter. You can't just say that and expect to be taken seriously =/ Spiritomb being the only way to "stop" it only makes it sound more broken, not the opposite.

If you bring up counters, you have to explain why that makes it broken, because standing alone it's a horrible argument (as CB Salamence shows us?) This is exactly why the [email protected] thread is on the verge of being closed and why this one could be going down the same path - counters do not matter. If you don't think so, take it up with Smogon and their definition. But that's what we're going by and "golly gee, it has a counter so it's cool" isn't a valid argument. Now listen, I know you probably just messed up your wording, but that's basically what you're saying for Staraptor too. Let's throw in the worst of the Rotom formes into UUs for a second, a surefire counter to Staraptor. Of course that doesn't help it since that's another way to beat it, but I think it would be might silly to say that it would make or break where it went in the tiers.

Revenge killing is hardly a bad argument for it either since it takes so much damage coming in from SR and the attack it will likely take. Normally it is a pretty poor argument for a Choice attacker, but you mustn't forget its SR and weather weak (which I haven't even brought up) and the fact that it's not that difficult to revenge kill without a centralized revenge killer (like a Scarf Milotic lol). You can throw in LO Shaymin and one-shot it with HP Ice or even Seed Flare pretty easily. So if I lose my darling Spiritomb, it's not like I lose like you suggest. Besides, it's at 40% health now (due to Brave Bird recoil and SR) and it's easy pickings.

And let's go back to Salamence. Let's pretend it has no access to any special attack except the Fire-typed and lacks Dragon Dance, so its only viable damaging set is a Choice Band or SubRoost set (sound familiar?) Still, CBMence has no counters in the OU tier with a Choice Band. How is Salamence any different from Staraptor (especially since they're both SS/SR weak)? In fact, Salamence actually has something in the form of resistances and defensive stats, but when people bring that up for the Uber tier, it is shot down. What is the difference? How come counters seem to matter so much in this circumstance but not in another?

We are going strictly by Smogon's definition here which is why I reject your argument as much as I did the one for Garchomp - Having or not having counters is such a ridiculous way of going about things that it really shouldn't even be taken seriously, and if you bring up counters, you need to be prepared to explain in full detail how that contributes to it fitting the definition of Uber/BL Smogon has produced. If you don't, your argument is not valid regardless of what side or Pokemon you're arguing for. It's that simple.

Now I'll give you the opportunity to rework your argument. Go ahead and present it to us free of responding to what I have said (since the purpose of this post is more to say that no counters is an invalid and backwards argument rather than to try to prove how not BL Staraptor is or whatever...most of what I said about Staraptor was an example more than anything else) and free of what I just mentioned - the mentality that somehow the number and quality of the suspect's counters somehow determines how broken or not broken it is. Obviously it has an effect, but it's not even close to the sole determining factor. I guarantee that if this thread proceeds with such a mentality, it will be closed. I linked to the "new" definition of Uber/BL in the first post.

So yeah. Don't take it as me scolding you since that's not really what I'm trying to accomplish, more that your argument kind of does fit under the whole counter mentality thing. Now why don't we "restart" this thread with the countering nonsense behind us?

EDIT: Oh, this also applies to revenge killers and checks too (assuming that it's the basis of your argument, just like with counters...I am in no way saying that they are invalid parts of an argument, just invalid as whole arguments).

. February 21st, 2009 5:22 PM

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You are saying that you are fine with Gallade in UUs because it has one counter. You can't just say that and expect to be taken seriously =/ Spiritomb being the only way to "stop" it only makes it sound more broken, not the opposite.
You could look at it two ways then; one counter makes it seem broken, and one counter makes it seem controlled and not broken.

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If you bring up counters, you have to explain why that makes it broken, because standing alone it's a horrible argument (as CB Salamence shows us?) This is exactly why the [email protected] thread is on the verge of being closed and why this one could be going down the same path - counters do not matter. If you don't think so, take it up with Smogon and their definition. But that's what we're going by and "golly gee, it has a counter so it's cool" isn't a valid argument. Now listen, I know you probably just messed up your wording, but that's basically what you're saying for Staraptor too. Let's throw in the worst of the Rotom formes into UUs for a second, a surefire counter to Staraptor. Of course that doesn't help it since that's another way to beat it, but I think it would be might silly to say that it would make or break where it went in the tiers.
Now I can understand what you're saying, although I still feel counters do matter, I can see what you're saying.

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Revenge killing is hardly a bad argument for it either since it takes so much damage coming in from SR and the attack it will likely take. Normally it is a pretty poor argument for a Choice attacker, but you mustn't forget its SR and weather weak (which I haven't even brought up) and the fact that it's not that difficult to revenge kill without a centralized revenge killer (like a Scarf Milotic lol). You can throw in LO Shaymin and one-shot it with HP Ice or even Seed Flare pretty easily. So if I lose my darling Spiritomb, it's not like I lose like you suggest. Besides, it's at 40% health now (due to Brave Bird recoil and SR) and it's easy pickings.
Speed tie? I can understand what you're saying, but revenge killing means that everything is able to be stopped. Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, even Mewtwo could all be classified as "not broken" if you use this logic of revenge killing. I'm assuming you're trying to say that that even if a counter goes down, something else can kill it, thus it's an argument to why something shouldn't be classified as broken (?).

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And let's go back to Salamence. Let's pretend it has no access to any special attack except the Fire-typed and lacks Dragon Dance, so its only viable damaging set is a Choice Band or SubRoost set (sound familiar?) Still, CBMence has no counters in the OU tier with a Choice Band. How is Salamence any different from Staraptor (especially since they're both SS/SR weak)? In fact, Salamence actually has something in the form of resistances and defensive stats, but when people bring that up for the Uber tier, it is shot down. What is the difference? How come counters seem to matter so much in this circumstance but not in another?
Salamence is, call me crazy but I'm going there, a little easier to handle since Outrage locks it in. I could sacrifice something such as a weakened Lucario while doing around 25%ish to it with Extremespeed, and then have something like Hippowdon come in, live the Outrage, and kill it from there with Ice Fang. Staraptor kills itself with Brave Bird, true, there's no argument against that, but Staraptor doesn't spam Brave Bird early in the match, and waits to see the Steel/Rock wall that's there to soak its attacks.

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We are going strictly by Smogon's definition here which is why I reject your argument as much as I did the one for Garchomp - Having or not having counters is such a ridiculous way of going about things that it really shouldn't even be taken seriously, and if you bring up counters, you need to be prepared to explain in full detail how that contributes to it fitting the definition of Uber/BL Smogon has produced. If you don't, your argument is not valid regardless of what side or Pokemon you're arguing for. It's that simple.
But if something does have a counter, you must admit handling it is easier than handling something else without a counter (ie. Gallade and Staraptor).

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EDIT: Oh, this also applies to revenge killers and checks too (assuming that it's the basis of your argument, just like with counters...I am in no way saying that they are invalid parts of an argument, just invalid as whole arguments).
So, you're saying that revenge killing is a valid argument, or is it not? For both Staraptor and Gallade, you can make multiple arguments for why they are not broken. The main ones for Gallade are Spiritomb, and revenge killing. For Staraptor, the primary arguments are killing itself, and revenge killing. If we cancel out revenge killing as a whole, the things that stop Gallade is Spiritomb, and Staraptor is Stealth Rock and Brave Bird's recoil. Honestly, I find Staraptor more threatening, since while it is killing itself, it's also killing you.

Anti February 21st, 2009 5:32 PM

My Shaymin is Timid =) ...and Staraptor is usually Adamant (though not always, to be fair).

I'm saying that revenge killing and countering are valid if you don't go overboard. As in, they are only one aspect of your argument (especially with revenge killing since it's a lot more inefficient that countering lol) rather than your argument totally. Your argument needs to be based on Smogon's definition, and while counters and revenge killers can support your argument, none of them even come close to proving that a suspect fits the definition. That's why I'm so against Staraptor being banned - the ONLY thing that differentiates it from other physical sweepers is that it doesn't have any (common) counters, and it needs to lock itself into one move to accomplish that (while in the process forcing itself to have to switch in and out in a world ruled by SR...and it's hard to switch something with bad defenses in on even defensive Pokemon). It has so many drawbacks that I really don't even want to use it on any of my teams. There's a good reason to use it of course which is its sheer power and Brave Bird, but "no counters" is the only thing going for it, which doesn't do it for me and it doesn't do it for Smogon's definition either.

. February 21st, 2009 5:44 PM

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My Shaymin is Timid =) ...and Staraptor is usually Adamant (though not always, to be fair).
Oh, I thought I was being original using Timid. To be fair, if you rely on Shaymin as your Staraptor check, and this Staraptor is Jolly, eh, you know. Speed ties aren't great to base discussions on.

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I'm saying that revenge killing and countering are valid if you don't go overboard. As in, they are only one aspect of your argument (especially with revenge killing since it's a lot more inefficient that countering lol) rather than your argument totally. Your argument needs to be based on Smogon's definition, and while counters and revenge killers can support your argument, none of them even come close to proving that a suspect fits the definition.
Okay, I can agree with this.

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That's why I'm so against Staraptor being banned - the ONLY thing that differentiates it from other physical sweepers is that it doesn't have any (common) counters, and it needs to lock itself into one move to accomplish that (while in the process forcing itself to have to switch in and out in a world ruled by SR...and it's hard to switch something with bad defenses in on even defensive Pokemon).
Staraptor is one of those things that can be easy to stop, and impossible to stop. It's one of those prediction reliant Pokemon. If you predict right on a resistance, it can be dealt with. However, if Staraptor is able to hit something, and destroy a part of your team, there's sometimes nothing you can do to stop it. Believe me, I've been in situations where the Staraptor user is able to predict the obvious (shouldn't be so obvious) Rock/Steel switch-in. I had no Brave Bird switch-in, and got demolished. I had to end up revenge killing it, but it was such an obvious switch-in (Blaziken to Staraptor). I ended up losing Blaziken and getting swept.

Now, I absolutely hate having to make situations such as these, since sometimes I don't believe other people when they put this in arguments. But believe me, I've lost many battles due to Staraptor just hammering my so called "counters" down to the ground.

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It has so many drawbacks that I really don't even want to use it on any of my teams. There's a good reason to use it of course which is its sheer power and Brave Bird, but "no counters" is the only thing going for it, which doesn't do it for me and it doesn't do it for Smogon's definition either.
You could say the same thing about Rayquaza, but it would absolutely end OU.

Anti February 21st, 2009 5:59 PM

Rayquaza has way more going for it than no counters, namely both attacking stats easily toppling anything OUs has and a tremendous movepool. The SD set would be like SDLuke on crack, and Ray has passable defenses and good enough typing that would allow it to dominate the tier while being nearly impossible not just to counter, but also to revenge kill (Dragon Dance and Xspeed say hello). the difference is that Ray can blow up OUs without getting itself killed in the process and having relatively no reasonable way of dealing with it in general. Add in unpredictability (lol, it has multiple sets that you can't counter) and you've got something that does way more than not having any counters.

If Staraptor's effectiveness is situational than it probably isn't broken, lol. I mean, everything's effectiveness has to do with a situation somewhat, but Staraptor is so hit-or-miss that I find it hard to call broken. Too fragile, too suicidal, too metagame weak (by that I mean weak to common stuff like SR), too risky to be broken. Maybe our playing styles differ, but Staraptor hasn't caused me an ounce of trouble. Staraptor just has way too much trouble getting in. If you let it come in for free everything time then of course it's going to cause problems, but really, it's not very hard to Staraptor-proof your team (Surf from a standard walling Milotic plus SR basically kills it completely to show how easy it is to stop it from coming in). That's another difference it has with something like Garchomp - Garchomp was often praised with having defenses better than Swampert's. The only Pokemon not laughing at Staraptor is Deoxys-A.

Archer February 21st, 2009 6:15 PM

I'm not terribly concerned if Staraptor ends up BL or not. That said, I believe it does belong in BL, as it really doesn't contribute to the metagame in a positive manner. Before you take the time to tell me about using Smogon's Uber/BL Definitions, I am fully aware of this, but the definitions are incredibly vague and don't really apply at all to choice users, as they would have to sweep solidly, which is nigh impossible with one move.

To be honest, I don't see why we are arguing with theorymon (Also, with Crobat around, I don't see how SR is always up...) when it is clear that it's creating issues. The whole idea behind moving pokemon between tiers is to achieve more balanced and enjoyable metagames. Condsidering the vast possibilities in regards to different situations, factors (SR, SS, etc) and the need for teams to vary, it is impossible to establish just how good any pokemon is. Due to this, I think a certain amount of opinion and logic needs to come into play.

Anti February 21st, 2009 6:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4374725)
I'm not terribly concerned if Staraptor ends up BL or not. That said, I believe it does belong in BL, as it really doesn't contribute to the metagame in a positive manner. Before you take the time to tell me about using Smogon's Uber/BL Definitions, I am fully aware of this, but the definitions are incredibly vague and don't really apply at all to choice users, as they would have to sweep solidly, which is nigh impossible with one move.

To be honest, I don't see why we are arguing with theorymon (Also, with Crobat around, I don't see how SR is always up...) when it is clear that it's creating issues. The whole idea behind moving pokemon between tiers is to achieve more balanced and enjoyable metagames. Condsidering the vast possibilities in regards to different situations, factors (SR, SS, etc) and the need for teams to vary, it is impossible to establish just how good any pokemon is. Due to this, I think a certain amount of opinion and logic needs to come into play.

Opinion and logic are a given for any debate thread o_O

How is any of this theorymon? Staraptor basically being near impossible to counter isn't theorymon, it's just a fact that may or may not affect how you see its status. Theorymon is when you put together situations in a battle based on theory and logic, kind of like what me and Vance were talking about earlier about predicting around it (only that's kind of relevant to the topic). The only issue was getting straight how the Pokemon's status is determined, and Vance and I only disagree. It's pretty much that simple, lol.

And the definition applies to Choice users too, lol. The definition has to be vague or it probably isn't going to be very good (due to how many different ways a Pokemon can be Uber). First of all, choice items are a liability to anything that wants to be Uber for the very reason you mentioned - the user is locked into one move. You can't just ignore that, and if it prevents a Pokemon from sweeping, then it is what it is. How does it not apply to Choice item users when they're so restricted and they're force to switch all the time in a metagame infested with SR? If the definition makes it harder for Choice item users to be bumped up, then so be it, because choice items do have a downside and not having any counters doesn't suddenly take away the downside. what I'm saying is that there is a difference between a Pokemon that is uncounterable with a Choice item and an uncounterable Pokemon without one. The definition would be flawed to ignore that (not to say that everything lies on counters but ugh, just an example).

Also, a lot of leads can't do anything to stop SR from coming out. It's not like Crobat is on every team or that SR can only be set up turn 1. Besides, you can get past Crobat if you really want to (TrickScarf destroyed Crobat and a Scarfed SR user in general can get by it without any problem). SR is on almost every team so don't you think it would be kind of silly to just ignore it or not assume it is going to be up? I mean, every team with SDLuke or DDGyara runs under the assumption that SR will be up.

EDIT: By the way, I think Staraptor has been discussed to its fullest (at this point both arguments have been presented and it's almost just posting to reiterate how we all disagree lol) and we could move on to one of the other ones. We don't have to or anything but I find Raikou and especially Gallade a mess to deal with. Luckily I usually crush it switching in, but it's a beast (@Gallade)

. February 21st, 2009 6:51 PM

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Rayquaza has way more going for it than no counters, namely both attacking stats easily toppling anything OUs has and a tremendous movepool. The SD set would be like SDLuke on crack, and Ray has passable defenses and good enough typing that would allow it to dominate the tier while being nearly impossible not just to counter, but also to revenge kill (Dragon Dance and Xspeed say hello). the difference is that Ray can blow up OUs without getting itself killed in the process and having relatively no reasonable way of dealing with it in general.
Ice Shard, Scarf Gengar, Scarf Metagross, etc...all destroy it. Cresselia lives a hit from any set, even a LO boosted Outrage from the SD set has a 28% chance to OHKO, though SR makes it 100%. Mamoswine OHKOs it, Weavile, Metagross lives SD Extremespeed easy and OHKOs with Ice Punch. Oh my god am I actually making an argument for Rayquaza in OU? No I'm not, I'm just saying revenge killing isn't the best (in fact, isn't even a good) argument.

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Add in unpredictability (lol, it has multiple sets that you can't counter) and you've got something that does way more than not having any counters.
Similar to Salamence, except slower and on crack.

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If Staraptor's effectiveness is situational than it probably isn't broken, lol. I mean, everything's effectiveness has to do with a situation somewhat, but Staraptor is so hit-or-miss that I find it hard to call broken. Too fragile, too suicidal, too metagame weak (by that I mean weak to common stuff like SR), too risky to be broken. Maybe our playing styles differ, but Staraptor hasn't caused me an ounce of trouble.
I haven't had trouble with Garchomp (LIES), so why is it banned? I'm just trying to say, getting in is the hard part for it. It 2HKOs all physical walls bar Luxray (Double Edge ftw), outspeeds all of them, and has Intimidate to make pitiful attacks like Mach Punch not KO.

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Staraptor just has way too much trouble getting in. If you let it come in for free everything time then of course it's going to cause problems, but really, it's not very hard to Staraptor-proof your team (Surf from a standard walling Milotic plus SR basically kills it completely to show how easy it is to stop it from coming in).
But why come in on Surf when there's a chance to come in on Recover? Why switch Staraptor into an attack at all? No one switches Staraptor in on attacks =/ Oh, by the way, without SR, a foe CB Staraptor's Brave Bird/Double Edge only has a 21% chance of OHKOing, not really relevant, but a fun fact nonetheless. Staraptor: The great Staraptor counter!

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That's another difference it has with something like Garchomp - Garchomp was often praised with having defenses better than Swampert's. The only Pokemon not laughing at Staraptor is Deoxys-A.
Registeel isn't laughing at Staraptor (burn).

But seriously, getting in is hell for Rayquaza, SR weak, but once its in, it destroys nearly everything. That's kinda like Staraptor.

Anti February 21st, 2009 7:03 PM

No, I agree revenge killing is a poor argument (since you have to sacrifice something lol) but it can be a good one depending on what you're dealing with. It depends though, if you're letting yourself lose 50% of your health while proceeding with no item and locking yourself into Outrage, then it's a pretty fair argument (lol Garchomp).

If Staraptor comes in on Milotic using Recover then it probably isn't going to kill it =p Actually, it can be Brave Bird recoil stalled that way (for a few turns, at least). Yeah nobody is going to intentionally bring it in on an attack, but that's actually quite difficult when even stuff like Registeel has them (and once Staraptor has made an appearance, that stuff is insanely predictable). there I go with my theorymon again, but you have to admin, getting Staraptor in without it taking a lot of damage is REALLY hard. Not impossible by any stretch of the imagination, but hard. Even it it does, having one (or possibly two) of your STAB moves recoil-inducing defines suicidal, lol.

My point is that Staraptor must go to too much effort to have the impact it often has (which is basically killing itself). That's the difference between it and Rayquaza and so many more.

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Originally Posted by Anti
EDIT: By the way, I think Staraptor has been discussed to its fullest (at this point both arguments have been presented and it's almost just posting to reiterate how we all disagree lol) and we could move on to one of the other ones. We don't have to or anything but I find Raikou and especially Gallade a mess to deal with. Luckily I usually crush it switching in, but it's a beast (@Gallade)

=(

EDIT: At least this thread is back on track.

. February 21st, 2009 7:10 PM

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No, I agree revenge killing is a poor argument (since you have to sacrifice something lol) but it can be a good one depending on what you're dealing with. It depends though, if you're letting yourself lose 50% of your health while proceeding with no item and locking yourself into Outrage, then it's a pretty fair argument (lol Garchomp).
Revenge killing basically negates a threat's place in the metagame, since an Uber Rayquaza can be revenge killed by a UU Cloyster.

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If Staraptor comes in on Milotic using Recover then it probably isn't going to kill it =p Actually, it can be Brave Bird recoil stalled that way (for a few turns, at least). Yeah nobody is going to intentionally bring it in on an attack, but that's actually quite difficult when even stuff like Registeel has them (and once Staraptor has made an appearance, that stuff is insanely predictable). there I go with my theorymon again, but you have to admin, getting Staraptor in without it taking a lot of damage is REALLY hard. Not impossible by any stretch of the imagination, but hard. Even it it does, having one (or possibly two) of your STAB moves recoil-inducing defines suicidal, lol.
Staraptor is the emo bird! But honestly, the standard defensive Milotic takes 69% minimum from BB/DE, and 82% maximum. Meaning it will die in two turns regardless (unless it gets to MAXIMUM health the first Recover turn).

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EDIT: By the way, I think Staraptor has been discussed to its fullest (at this point both arguments have been presented and it's almost just posting to reiterate how we all disagree lol) and we could move on to one of the other ones. We don't have to or anything but I find Raikou and especially Gallade a mess to deal with. Luckily I usually crush it switching in, but it's a beast (@Gallade)
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Okay, let's discuss Raikou. I'll let Anti submit his opinion so I can disagree with it :D But really, I like beginning new Pokemon debates in a new post. Someone start.

Pokedra February 21st, 2009 9:02 PM

Raikou will be moved up, its got great Speed, Special Attack and Special Defence. The CM sweeper is deadly, its move pool is shallow but despite that its way too strong for UU. However it does actually have a counter unlike Staraptor.

Anti February 21st, 2009 9:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4375284)
Raikou will be moved up, its got great Speed, Special Attack and Special Defence. The CM sweeper is deadly, its move pool is shallow but despite that its way too strong for UU. However it does actually have a counter unlike Staraptor.

Great stats don't make for something to be moved up. you're going to have to elaborate on that a litte more (as in something to convince somebody neutral like me that it should be banned). what exactly makes it so broken? etc etc

Because everybody piling on a two-sentence post about what they think probably isn't going to go anywhere.

Pokedra February 21st, 2009 9:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 4375298)
Great stats don't make for something to be moved up. you're going to have to elaborate on that a litte more (as in something to convince somebody neutral like me that it should be banned). what exactly makes it so broken? etc etc

Because everybody piling on a two-sentence post about what they think probably isn't going to go anywhere.

It's faster then most of UU and can use Specs and Scarf very well. It can take hits on the special side better then most normal UU Pokemon, with Calm Mind(which it always seems to have) it can sweep a great portion of your team with 1-2 Calm Minds under its belt.

Anti February 21st, 2009 9:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4375315)
It's faster then most of UU and can use Specs and Scarf very well. It can take hits on the special side better then most normal UU Pokemon, with Calm Mind(which it always seems to have) it can sweep a great portion of your team with 1-2 Calm Minds under its belt.

>_________>

You're just listing its characteristics. You have to actually connect it to (what I assume would be) the offensive characteristic. I mean we already know that and that's why it's a suspect, but that hardly justifies a ban for it.

We can't just go off banning stuff that's good because we don't want to have to worry about it when team building or new UU will turn into old UU very quickly. Raikou has to be better than good at its job, it has to be too good at its job. That's what you have to prove.

. February 21st, 2009 9:40 PM

Raikou is a total monster, but the thing is, it has a good deal of counters and checks. Psych Up Regice with Seismic Toss, Registeel and Regirock with Earthquake (the latter should be in Sandstorm, honestly), and even Chansey pretty much handle Raikou comfortably. This doesn't make Raikou any less threatening. Offensive teams get absolutely destroyed by Raikou. Bulky waters like Milotic get set up on, things like Shaymin are outrun and usually scared off by HP Ice / Signal Beam, and all common sweepers like Gallade, Staraptor, and Blaziken are outrun and OHKOed by a Calm Mind Thunderbolt (bar Gallade, and sometimes Blaziken...I don't know).

The SubCM set is easy to set up, really easy. So many things give it ample switch-in opprotunities. Something like a Blaziken locked in Overheat after the Special Attack drop is a god-send. Once you get this opprotunity, you should be salivating (yes, SALIVATING) on the keyboard, because now you get a free set up. Not a lot of things outrun it either, so if they rely on Special Attacks like Earth Power or a STAB __, chances are, they're done for. Common physical attackers get ripped to shreds by +2 Thunderbolt/Hidden Power.

I don't know if it should be BL, but Raikou is a total beast.

Archer February 22nd, 2009 2:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by . (Post 4375368)
Raikou is a total monster, but the thing is, it has a good deal of counters and checks. Psych Up Regice with Seismic Toss, Registeel and Regirock with Earthquake (the latter should be in Sandstorm, honestly), and even Chansey pretty much handle Raikou comfortably. This doesn't make Raikou any less threatening. Offensive teams get absolutely destroyed by Raikou. Bulky waters like Milotic get set up on, things like Shaymin are outrun and usually scared off by HP Ice / Signal Beam, and all common sweepers like Gallade, Staraptor, and Blaziken are outrun and OHKOed by a Calm Mind Thunderbolt (bar Gallade, and sometimes Blaziken...I don't know).

The SubCM set is easy to set up, really easy. So many things give it ample switch-in opprotunities. Something like a Blaziken locked in Overheat after the Special Attack drop is a god-send. Once you get this opprotunity, you should be salivating (yes, SALIVATING) on the keyboard, because now you get a free set up. Not a lot of things outrun it either, so if they rely on Special Attacks like Earth Power or a STAB __, chances are, they're done for. Common physical attackers get ripped to shreds by +2 Thunderbolt/Hidden Power.

I don't know if it should be BL, but Raikou is a total beast.

This is all quite true. For the record, Icy Wind Variants of Regice also make a fool of Raikou. Provided it doesn't get in too many CMs to break the Sub easily.
Unlike Staraptor, it doesn't usually post an instant threat and can be dealt with fairly easily if you know what you're doing. Also, I tend to find that +1 TBolts come short of OHKOing many pokemon that can OHKO it in return. It's a menacing threat, but I never really find it too overpowering.

I vote UU on Raikou. :D

. February 22nd, 2009 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 4376106)
This is all quite true. For the record, Icy Wind Variants of Regice also make a fool of Raikou. Provided it doesn't get in too many CMs to break the Sub easily.
Unlike Staraptor, it doesn't usually post an instant threat and can be dealt with fairly easily if you know what you're doing. Also, I tend to find that +1 TBolts come short of OHKOing many pokemon that can OHKO it in return. It's a menacing threat, but I never really find it too overpowering.

I vote UU on Raikou. :D

Who the hell uses Icy Wind Regice? Psych Up + Seismic Toss is what counters Raikou ._.

Samson February 22nd, 2009 10:59 PM

i can't believe abomasnow and froslass are even on this list. they have their roles and challenging usages but they are in no shape or form threats to the UU metagame.

the rest, however, i could see the BL argument for.

Pokedra February 22nd, 2009 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 4379176)
i can't believe abomasnow and froslass are even on this list. they have their roles and challenging usages but they are in no shape or form threats to the UU metagame.

the rest, however, i could see the BL argument for.

Yes they do. Abombasnow is a excellent supporter with its ability and Subseeding and Froslass is one of best leads(if not the best) in UU.

Lila February 22nd, 2009 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4379210)
Yes they do. Abombasnow is a excellent supporter with its ability and Subseeding and Froslass is one of best leads(if not the best) in UU.

Maybe it's just me, but I really do not see how Abomasnow is somehow an excellent supporter just because it can SubSeed. Yes, its ability is fantastic, but Abomasnow has an incredible amount of weaknesses. It's a very risky pokemon to use, I find, as a ton of pokemon can one-shot him, and it's difficult to predict if an opponent has a move that will be super effective against it at times, since he has so many weaknesses! : / SubSeed Abomasnow can be very good, but it relies on too much luck to be broken, in my opinion.

Pokedra February 23rd, 2009 2:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lila (Post 4379223)
Maybe it's just me, but I really do not see how Abomasnow is somehow an excellent supporter just because it can SubSeed. Yes, its ability is fantastic, but Abomasnow has an incredible amount of weaknesses. It's a very risky pokemon to use, I find, as a ton of pokemon can one-shot him, and it's difficult to predict if an opponent has a move that will be super effective against it at times, since he has so many weaknesses! : / SubSeed Abomasnow can be very good, but it relies on too much luck to be broken, in my opinion.

The ability is really what makes him good. He can support decently but if he didn't have Snow Warning he'd just be an average UU Pokemon.

Lila February 23rd, 2009 8:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokedra (Post 4379359)
The ability is really what makes him good. He can support decently but if he didn't have Snow Warning he'd just be an average UU Pokemon.

I agree that the ability makes him good, but I honestly do not think that Abomasnow is that great at supporting. He can learn leech seed and substitute, yes, but that doesn't automatically make him a great support pokemon. He has an incredible amount of weaknesses, and is slow so you can't scout for moves with substitute most of the time. Maybe it's just my opinion on what a supporting pokemon is, but a supporter supports the team (obviously), and thus they have to be able to take a few hits. Abomasnow honestly can't, and you can almost never switch him in unless you absolutely 100% know that the attack coming at him won't be super effective.

Also, I'm not trying to be rude here but you shouldn't first say that he's an excellent support pokemon, and then switch to that he's a decent supporter in the next post. It's quite contradictory and it makes things confusing when your opinion switches in the span of one post. x_x

luke February 23rd, 2009 8:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 4379176)
i can't believe abomasnow and froslass are even on this list. they have their roles and challenging usages but they are in no shape or form threats to the UU metagame.

the rest, however, i could see the BL argument for.

I just want Abomasnow out of UU because I don't want any auto-weather starters in my UU. >:o

Froslass is only up there because of Abomasnow. I can't believe people overlooked Ludicolo and Roserade.

Lila February 23rd, 2009 9:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Get Out of My Honey Pot, Ursaring! (Post 4379744)
I just want Abomasnow out of UU because I don't want any auto-weather starters in my UU. >:o

Froslass is only up there because of Abomasnow. I can't believe people overlooked Ludicolo and Roserade.

Out of curiosity, would Snover be banned if Abomasnow was? I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, but I'm curious.

I've seen so many Hippopotas on teams, so even if Abomasnow is banned I predict there will lots of Snovers running around to irritate people who think that hail teams will disappear. >_> Obviously they won't be as effective as Abomasnow, but they'll still be used to start Hail and refresh it, anyway.

Also, while Froslass's ability is great combined with Abomasnow, almost all the time when I actually do see a Froslass, she's not on a Hail team. Of course she still screws me over since I use a Hail team in UU frequently, lol. Snow Cloak hax is quite irritating, but it seems most Froslass are leads anyway, so they'll only activate that ability if Abomasnow is the other team's starter, or if they decide to switch out and switch back in later on if there is Abomasnow on their own team, which is quite rare since they're mostly suicide leads.

Ludicolo and Roserade are pretty big threats in UU, but honestly I can't say that I've encountered many or have had trouble. Roserade is pretty powerful, but she is very frail to physical attacks so isn't too difficult to take down. Ludicolo seems to only be on rain teams, which he is a big pain on, but otherwise I never see him. I've noticed every day that there are many more weather based teams in UU, with most of them being rain, then hail, then sunny day. I think the thing about Ludicolo is that it relies on Rain Dance for speed, so if you manage to remove that I find he's not much of a threat at all. I'm also encountering more teams which aren't weather based, but have a pokemon with Sunny Day to nullify other weather effects. It's quite a good strategy since it screws over Hail and Rain Dance teams, but not many people are catching onto it yet.

Pokedra February 23rd, 2009 9:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Get Out of My Honey Pot, Ursaring! (Post 4379744)
I just want Abomasnow out of UU because I don't want any auto-weather starters in my UU. >:o

Froslass is only up there because of Abomasnow. I can't believe people overlooked Ludicolo and Roserade.

Abomasnow should be BL I agree. It's abiltiy helps Walrein and Froslass alot.

I reckon Roserade is overlooked, she isn't that bad. Good Special Attack and Special Defence and decent Speed plus she can Subseed and support.

Samson February 24th, 2009 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Get Out of My Honey Pot, Ursaring! (Post 4379744)
I just want Abomasnow out of UU because I don't want any auto-weather starters in my UU. >:o

Froslass is only up there because of Abomasnow. I can't believe people overlooked Ludicolo and Roserade.

O_O roserade ISN'T BL? news to me. i haven't been up on the changes to the ladder so i'm pretty surprised that they'd make that mistake. i mean, really, it's no shaymin but just a few notches off from it.

i wish they would just make more pokes with auto-weather abilities. UU Drought would be AWESOME.

luke February 24th, 2009 10:09 AM

Well, I'm not sure if you know, but BL/UU/NFE were all merged. And since Roserade was BL before the merge, it's technically "UU" now.

Samson February 24th, 2009 10:12 AM

oh yeah, that's right. keke, that changes a lot now doesn't it? :D


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