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UU Suspects Discussion
UU Suspects As most of you probably know, Smogon is finished testing for the new UU and BL. The tiers are still being made. This thread is for discussion on some of the suspect Pokemon who will almost 100% make BL. ☆ SUSPECTS These are the suspect Pokemon that are considered far too powerful for UU by Smogoners.
There's got to reasons for them to be too powerful for UU right? Here are some reason why. Staraptorhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/398m.png Staraptor is a powerhouse in UU. Its good base stats of 120 Attack and 100 Speed makes him both fast and incredibly powerful. Staraptor also has Intimidate which somewhats helps its paltry Defense. CB Staraptor is so powerful nearly all of UU is 2HKO'ed by it (barring defensive Rotom and Luxray). Steel-types can't wall it because it has Close Combat. Brave Bird is an extremely powerful attack that will pummel anything that doesn't resist it. Return offers a move that is still powerful but doesn't has recoil damage. Froslasshttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/478f.png Froslass is an awesome lead with Base 110 Speed and Focus Sash she can nearly always lay down one layer of Spikes. Immunity to Fake Out and Destiny Bond means she can usually take out another Pokemon as well as setting spikes up. Crobathttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/169m.png Crobat is another great lead, it can outrun all of UU nearly (barring Choice Scarf) with its insane 130 Speed. Crobat can stop Pokemon setting up with Taunt and can usually recover off the damage it takes with Roost. He can induce sleep with Hypnosis. Galladehttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/475m.png In the early days of UU testing, people feared two Pokemon that would impact the UU metagame: Gallade and Staraptor. Gallade can Swords Dance then proceed to sweep with his vast movepool, including Close Combat, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak and Stone Edge. He has many other options and with 766 Attack after a Swords Dance and Life Orb. Not many Pokemon enjoy taking a hit from Gallade. Abomasnowhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame1/460m.png His ability is perfect for Hail teams, and Abomasnow has decent support options. He can SubSeed and can use his two STAB 120 power moves to crush other Pokemon. A very handy Pokemon, and it helps Walrein a lot. Raikouhttp://www.dragonflycave.com/plsprites-frame2/243m.png CM Raikou is nearly unstoppable in UU with 115 base Special Attack and Speed and a respectable 100 base Special Defense. Add on Calm Mind and Leftovers and it becomes really hard to beat him on the Special side. His movepool isn't very good but he doesn't need it when he can totally destroy most UU Pokemon with what he has. Remember that the tier status of all of these suspects is not based on how hard they are to counter or easy to revenge kill, but by the three possible characteristics listed in this post. No other justifications for supporting a ban will be accepted (though you don't have to refer to them specifically as long as your response is relevant to the characteristic the suspect in question has been nominated for). Feel free to discuss |
I agree at the staraptor.
Unless you have a Focus Sashed poke with Thunderbolt than you're set. Brave Bird demolishes almost anything... |
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Now, I agree with all of these. Idk about Crobat though since I haven't seen one on a UU team yet. Staraptor might be so unlucky to be dumped into OU, but I extremely doubt it. Abomasnow is also a massive threat... I have to say that Gallade has done huge amounts of damage to my team lately since I see them around on almost every team. Isn't Shaymin also a suspect, or did it lose the noms?
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Staraptor I doubt a little bit though. Brave Bird is insane, but it basically kills Staraptor in the process (especially if SR is in play). Usually it died before it could do anything to my team, which isn't exactly super fast and powerful. The CB set is worn down incredibly easily, but it's pretty much impossible to deny that if it gets in, it could massacre you. Still, it does have to predict right, and taking 25% damage just to mispredict can get it killed really easily. I find it a little overrated to be honest =\ |
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Registeel is the one Regi I'd bump up. I'm finding it particularly tough to take down, yet I haven't encountered the other Regis as much. Shaymin should most definitely be on the list. |
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Okay, out of all the Suspects, I feel the only one really deserving of being moved up is Staraptor. Gallade is good and all, but anything faster than it with a strong move (read: Staraptor, Sharpedo, Scyther, etc...) murder it in a single hit. Shadow Sneak is good for Ghosts and all, but it's no Sucker Punch, meaning it won't be doing a good deal of damage after a Swords Dance to neutral targets. Night Slash is another option, and honestly, the better option. Gallade has the bulk to live even Specs Shadow Balls from Mismagius, so uh, the extra power comes in handy against Slowbro and co. (I deserve a medal for that rhyme).
Staraptor's realistic counter is Luxray. Luxray with Intimidate is the safest bet, as an Adamant Choice Banded Brave Bird can only muster 28%, although the rare Double Edge 2HKOs it with Stealth Rock 99% of the time. Even Regirock, Slowbro, Relicanth, Steelix, Miltank -- All 2HKOed. Crobat is an excellent support lead, but I doubt it should be moved up. Sure, it's damn good, but it isn't breaking anything, and can certainly be exploited with its Ice, Rock, and Electric weakness. |
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EDIT : Oh yeah I'm not too sure about Shaymin. He wasn't listed as a Top Suspect but I doubt he's far behind. |
Are we still talking about counters? Does that ever go away? >_>
Yeah Staraptor doesn't have any good counters, but I sure as hell don't care considering that Flying and Normal are two pretty poor attack types. The problem I have in general with banning Choice Banders for being overpowered is that they have to predict perfectly to be the amazing force that people say they are, and that is nearly impossible. for that reason I find it being "overpowered" to be borderlining on theorymon when it's really easy to outsmart. Even if you are outsmarted, it can't take a hit from anything and can only really come in on revenge or from Earthquake. Staraptor is still incredibly easy to wear down and kill if you ask me. and you have to remember, CBers have to get in safely to do damage, and Staraptor is frail. very frail. Like I said, EQ is all it's coming in on (and maybe a Missy Shadow Ball or something). Raikou has been tolerable for me but very effective nonetheless. Its Speed it really devastating. |
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Brave Bird + Hypnosis is illegal. Quote:
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I'm just saying but Blissey walls Soul Dew Latios in OUs, I don't see how Chansey walling Raikou is a whole lot different =/ I know you can wall it with Registeel and Chansey (the former taking a lot of damage in the process though), but it's a pain in the neck to stop without either of them, and it's basically impossible to revenge kill unless you sacrifice a Choice Scarfer to break its Sub and whatnot. this isn't OUs where Raikou had Heatran and Tyranitar to lol at it - this is UUs and it's really a very good sweeper. Is it good enough to be banned? I don't know to be honest. But wiriting it off because "Chansey says hello" is utterly ridiculous.
I know exactly what Staraptor KOs, it just doesn't matter to me when it is insanely hard to get in to do the damage it wants to, and it has to murder itself to do that damage (since it relies on Brave Bird for basically all of its kills except for those on the Steels and Rock-types). CC is really helpful for them, but again, it's a guessing game, and Staraptor is going getting 2 or three chances to do damage (sometimes less). It's not CBChomp where SR did nothing basically and it could take repeated assaults - Staraptor has the defenses of Gengar. I agree that the prediction argument goes both ways, but I still think it applies, but again, Staraptor has to get into the battle in one piece in order to pose a significant threat (and even U-Turning to it is insanely risky). Staraptor is kind of like a worse Garchomp. Garchomp could at least get in the battle and not take ridiculous SR damage the whole time. Staraptor's ability to sweep is incredibly and I would be foolish to deny it, but it never gets the opportunity to...and when it does, it often has to kill itself doing so. Threatening? Absolutely. Broken? Absolutely not. Staraptor can do a ton of damage, but it dies so fast...its impact can be huge even in a short amount of time, but I find the likes of Shaymin and even Raikou to be much more troublesome than Staraptor. Oh, one more thing...you can just use a death fodder to scout its move (and I don't mean full health Espeon, I mean 20% Milotic). It has been a really useful strategy not only against Staraptor but CBers in general. Staraptor is especially hampered because of SR and ghuifgkfjghks defenses though. Another way to rob it of 25% health is to predict it switching in once it's been out (which is seriously the easiest thing in the world to do) and send in something that will scare it away as it switches in. Not foolproof but certainly useful. Ugh, SR screws over Staraptor so badly. Honestly, it's kind of hard to argue that Staraptor should not be banned because on paper it's absolutely terrifying...but from the "eye test" this thing is a lot like what Salamence is to OUs. Actually, there are a lot of similarities (and quite a few differences I admit, lol). I know I've only mentioned its SR weakness and paper thin defenses a million times, but it really does make all the difference, especially with bulkier alternatives like Gallade and Shaymin waiting to be added to your team. And I don't care if Staraptor doesn't have counters. I care if it overcentralizes the metagame (which I haven't seen AT ALL to be honest...I don't think many teams would change much regardless of whether or not it was allowed, and how they play I also doubt would change really at all) and if it passes the "eye test". "It can 2HKO almost everything in OUs!" is theorymon as far as I'm concerned since the key word is can, and it rarely has done any significant damage to my team (whose Staraptor defense is Registeel + Spiritomb btw). |
Maybe you've had no trouble but some people really have trouble with Staraptor.
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If you take that seriously I'll Brave Bird your face. |
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But on the subject. Having two ice types means that a third of your team is SR weak, and SR is quite common in UU, from what I've seen. Anyway, just because you played with ubers with gallade does not prove a thing. Quagsire and Parasect are actually quite powerful in ubers when played correctly but that doesn't mean that they're any better in their own tier. As for Lapras, Milotic and Walrein, care for some explanation? Same for Arcanine. but oooooh i cant bear 2 c my luvly littl ice princesss go 2 bl !!!! <3 Just kidding, dude. :P |
Yeah i deleted that post since it had nothing to back up claims. He is on really thin ice (lolpun), but seriously stop posting garbage "Walrein", there was nothing to contribute to the topic in your post and you know it, you didnt even back your claims up so how can you expect to be taken seriously? If you post something that awful again ill just infract you, you have been told countless times. Please learn how to S+M =/
Im surprized Ludicolo isnt on this list because a few battlers have been complaining about it lately. Its very versatile and it can hit from both ends of the spectrum (SD Ludi is no joke and hits VERY hard, especially in the rain) and can also run other sets like sub seed to screw you up. In addition its type coverage is great and thanks to that unique typing its a real pain to get rid of. Having said that, i would love to see a weather ban in uu (another point that has been brought up before by a few battlers). Its very centralizing and the pokemon that can be abused with each type of the respective weather is kinda stupid. Also you might want to add Froslass broken ability to "reasons" too, because as was with Garchomp, that DOES contribute to it being suspect. |
Staraptor is just the Salamence of UU.
Froslass is only a real pain in Hail were hax screws you over. Destiny Bond is annoying though, can't we just ban that? Crobat and Gallade should go up, although the Hypnosis drop is painful. Abomasnow REALLY needs to be out of UU. Stat-wise, it is average, movepool-wise it's average, typing-wise it's pretty bad. But the auto-hail is the killer. Hail teams seem to be dominate UU and they rely on the snowman here. To my knowledge, there is no counter to a Hail Team in UU that cannot be easily checked. Moving up Abomasnow isn't really moving up a single Pokemon, but moving up the most effective Hail team, which is what UU needs. |
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and that's why I think Shaymin is a better candidate than Staraptor and frankly I'm surprised it isn't a suspect. It's quite bulky and can hit about anything bar Chansey hard with Seed Flare/Earth Power/Air Slash/[email protected] while being hard to kill and speedy as well. I don't know, something that relies on a 1/3 recoil inducing move to net a lot of its kills while being weak to SR and having terrible defenses doesn't sound very broken to me. |
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No argument here. Quote:
yeah dood my teem doesn hvae troublez wit garchomp they shuld unban it. Quote:
Salamence actually has a few decent checks, Cresselia can live a DD boosted Life Orb Outrage and OHKO it with Ice Beam, Hippowdon takes physical versions decently (NOTE DECENTLY). Then there's revenge killing, but that applies to everything so let's ignore that. Quote:
I realize Brave Bird decimates itself, but you're going to have to be predicting over and under to take a hit from Staraptor, and a single error can lead to you losing one of your Pokemon. Say I have a Registeel out on the field, he has a Staraptor. I predict the Close Combat, but I feel that he's going to Brave Bird since I'm just a prediction freak like that. He Close Combats, my Registeel goes down. Now I bring in my Fighting resist. I scare it out. So, what happened here? I lost a Pokemon, he killed a Pokemon. Simple as that. There's more extreme examples but that's the most basic one I could come up with, don't shoot me. Quote:
So you agree Staraptor is a monster that, if the opponent predicts wrong, can rip your throat out? Quote:
Ironically Electivire handles these two threats. Your team may handle Garchomp but it loses to Electivire! Quote:
Get some Wide Lenses. Quote:
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Staraptor has done damage to my team before but never where I've said "man, this thing should be banned" because it ends up dying before it can unleash the terror we both agree it can unleash. I know I'm rehashing my argument here but I don't think Staraptor fits the offensive characteristic as well as even Shaymin. Shaymin is the best mid-game sweeper I have ever used. It just takes out EVERYTHING and doesn't die in the process. |
Mah, Crobat can be us in UU as Abomasnow in fact they are fundamental for based team on hail or other climatic changes, instead Raikou in UU is scandalous, with Choice Specs, or worse with CalmKou to whole metagame is devastated.
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CB Outrage does 2HKO Cresselia, that I admit, but it requires Stealth Rock...ugh I'm really starting to hate that move. Otherwise, both of them have an "eh" chance of being 3HKOed. Quote:
Those two opprotunities could destroy you if your prediction is off. Quote:
It isn't a great set because CB Mence outclasses it 100% of the time lol. Quote:
No problem. Quote:
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The thing I was talking about is Rayquaza by the way, the second (or third) strongest Pokemon in the whole gaem x] |
Yeah, two opportunities could destroy you. You can say that about a lot of CBers that have very few counters (Gallade comes to mind but you don't want that banned which I am confused by). But seriously, the chance to destroy you just oozes theorymon. A chance doesn't usually mean that it actually does. And a low chance of taking out one or two Pokemon isn't going to convince me to get Staraptor banned. BTW, you can throw Rotom on your team if you fear it THAT much. It's not like you're required to fear it and try to predict around it.
The thing about SubRoost is that it has to set up. It's a good way to stop teams that try to status it, but it's no more broken than CB Staraptor (and I know you didn't say it was, just saying). But this is all avoiding what determines this: the offensive characteristic. Can you tell me that Staraptor can sweep through a significant portion of teams with little effort? the last part really shoots down it getting banned imo, and that can shoot down the first part to some extent. I just don't see how, with that definition of Uber/BL (which I like a lot btw), you can call Staraptor a broken Pokemon. |
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CB Brave Bird vs. Max HP / Max Def Rotom: 42%-50% 2HKOs 93% of the time with Stealth Rock. Quote:
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No, it means it can be stopped. Quote:
Joke alarm went off right there. Quote:
Having a counter means you can be stopped. I'm not saying Gallade isn't a tough Pokemon to handle, I know it's a monster, and I apologize if my post came off as me saying "Gallade isn't monstrous because is has a counter". Quote:
Some teams are prepared for Staraptor, other ones aren't. Sadly, to be prepared for it you need a good sense of prediction, and resistances/immunties to its STAB Attacks and Close Combat. Let's not forget a small bit of wrong prediction can screw up your whole plan. Registeel + Spiritomb works well, but if someone Brave Birds your Spiritomb, and it dies, now you've lost your only chances of beating it. Quote:
yeah dude my team never died to garchomp we shuldn't ban it !!111 Quote:
You're right, my argument sort of contradicts itself. ;__; I can only speak from experiance, that without a bonafied Staraptor defensive core (needs to resist BB, CC, and Return/DE), it will destroy you. Same could be said for other Pokemon, however, in order to handle Staraptor, you need more than one Pokemon (I'm gonna ignore revenge killing, since I realize it's a stupid argument). Misprediction, or overprediction from your opponent can cause you to lose Staraptor insurance, meaning you could lose. Gallade is stopped by Spiritomb, true, although it HAS the potential to 2HKO with SD boosted Stone Edge, Sneak 2HKOs it thanks to Life Orb recoil. |
Your post came off that way because that's exactly what you said (well, almost, I'll explain in a sec). you said:
"Gallade does have a counter in Spiritomb, so I'm comfortable with him in UU." You are saying that you are fine with Gallade in UUs because it has one counter. You can't just say that and expect to be taken seriously =/ Spiritomb being the only way to "stop" it only makes it sound more broken, not the opposite. If you bring up counters, you have to explain why that makes it broken, because standing alone it's a horrible argument (as CB Salamence shows us?) This is exactly why the [email protected] thread is on the verge of being closed and why this one could be going down the same path - counters do not matter. If you don't think so, take it up with Smogon and their definition. But that's what we're going by and "golly gee, it has a counter so it's cool" isn't a valid argument. Now listen, I know you probably just messed up your wording, but that's basically what you're saying for Staraptor too. Let's throw in the worst of the Rotom formes into UUs for a second, a surefire counter to Staraptor. Of course that doesn't help it since that's another way to beat it, but I think it would be might silly to say that it would make or break where it went in the tiers. Revenge killing is hardly a bad argument for it either since it takes so much damage coming in from SR and the attack it will likely take. Normally it is a pretty poor argument for a Choice attacker, but you mustn't forget its SR and weather weak (which I haven't even brought up) and the fact that it's not that difficult to revenge kill without a centralized revenge killer (like a Scarf Milotic lol). You can throw in LO Shaymin and one-shot it with HP Ice or even Seed Flare pretty easily. So if I lose my darling Spiritomb, it's not like I lose like you suggest. Besides, it's at 40% health now (due to Brave Bird recoil and SR) and it's easy pickings. And let's go back to Salamence. Let's pretend it has no access to any special attack except the Fire-typed and lacks Dragon Dance, so its only viable damaging set is a Choice Band or SubRoost set (sound familiar?) Still, CBMence has no counters in the OU tier with a Choice Band. How is Salamence any different from Staraptor (especially since they're both SS/SR weak)? In fact, Salamence actually has something in the form of resistances and defensive stats, but when people bring that up for the Uber tier, it is shot down. What is the difference? How come counters seem to matter so much in this circumstance but not in another? We are going strictly by Smogon's definition here which is why I reject your argument as much as I did the one for Garchomp - Having or not having counters is such a ridiculous way of going about things that it really shouldn't even be taken seriously, and if you bring up counters, you need to be prepared to explain in full detail how that contributes to it fitting the definition of Uber/BL Smogon has produced. If you don't, your argument is not valid regardless of what side or Pokemon you're arguing for. It's that simple. Now I'll give you the opportunity to rework your argument. Go ahead and present it to us free of responding to what I have said (since the purpose of this post is more to say that no counters is an invalid and backwards argument rather than to try to prove how not BL Staraptor is or whatever...most of what I said about Staraptor was an example more than anything else) and free of what I just mentioned - the mentality that somehow the number and quality of the suspect's counters somehow determines how broken or not broken it is. Obviously it has an effect, but it's not even close to the sole determining factor. I guarantee that if this thread proceeds with such a mentality, it will be closed. I linked to the "new" definition of Uber/BL in the first post. So yeah. Don't take it as me scolding you since that's not really what I'm trying to accomplish, more that your argument kind of does fit under the whole counter mentality thing. Now why don't we "restart" this thread with the countering nonsense behind us? EDIT: Oh, this also applies to revenge killers and checks too (assuming that it's the basis of your argument, just like with counters...I am in no way saying that they are invalid parts of an argument, just invalid as whole arguments). |
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My Shaymin is Timid =) ...and Staraptor is usually Adamant (though not always, to be fair).
I'm saying that revenge killing and countering are valid if you don't go overboard. As in, they are only one aspect of your argument (especially with revenge killing since it's a lot more inefficient that countering lol) rather than your argument totally. Your argument needs to be based on Smogon's definition, and while counters and revenge killers can support your argument, none of them even come close to proving that a suspect fits the definition. That's why I'm so against Staraptor being banned - the ONLY thing that differentiates it from other physical sweepers is that it doesn't have any (common) counters, and it needs to lock itself into one move to accomplish that (while in the process forcing itself to have to switch in and out in a world ruled by SR...and it's hard to switch something with bad defenses in on even defensive Pokemon). It has so many drawbacks that I really don't even want to use it on any of my teams. There's a good reason to use it of course which is its sheer power and Brave Bird, but "no counters" is the only thing going for it, which doesn't do it for me and it doesn't do it for Smogon's definition either. |
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Now, I absolutely hate having to make situations such as these, since sometimes I don't believe other people when they put this in arguments. But believe me, I've lost many battles due to Staraptor just hammering my so called "counters" down to the ground. Quote:
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Rayquaza has way more going for it than no counters, namely both attacking stats easily toppling anything OUs has and a tremendous movepool. The SD set would be like SDLuke on crack, and Ray has passable defenses and good enough typing that would allow it to dominate the tier while being nearly impossible not just to counter, but also to revenge kill (Dragon Dance and Xspeed say hello). the difference is that Ray can blow up OUs without getting itself killed in the process and having relatively no reasonable way of dealing with it in general. Add in unpredictability (lol, it has multiple sets that you can't counter) and you've got something that does way more than not having any counters.
If Staraptor's effectiveness is situational than it probably isn't broken, lol. I mean, everything's effectiveness has to do with a situation somewhat, but Staraptor is so hit-or-miss that I find it hard to call broken. Too fragile, too suicidal, too metagame weak (by that I mean weak to common stuff like SR), too risky to be broken. Maybe our playing styles differ, but Staraptor hasn't caused me an ounce of trouble. Staraptor just has way too much trouble getting in. If you let it come in for free everything time then of course it's going to cause problems, but really, it's not very hard to Staraptor-proof your team (Surf from a standard walling Milotic plus SR basically kills it completely to show how easy it is to stop it from coming in). That's another difference it has with something like Garchomp - Garchomp was often praised with having defenses better than Swampert's. The only Pokemon not laughing at Staraptor is Deoxys-A. |
I'm not terribly concerned if Staraptor ends up BL or not. That said, I believe it does belong in BL, as it really doesn't contribute to the metagame in a positive manner. Before you take the time to tell me about using Smogon's Uber/BL Definitions, I am fully aware of this, but the definitions are incredibly vague and don't really apply at all to choice users, as they would have to sweep solidly, which is nigh impossible with one move.
To be honest, I don't see why we are arguing with theorymon (Also, with Crobat around, I don't see how SR is always up...) when it is clear that it's creating issues. The whole idea behind moving pokemon between tiers is to achieve more balanced and enjoyable metagames. Condsidering the vast possibilities in regards to different situations, factors (SR, SS, etc) and the need for teams to vary, it is impossible to establish just how good any pokemon is. Due to this, I think a certain amount of opinion and logic needs to come into play. |
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How is any of this theorymon? Staraptor basically being near impossible to counter isn't theorymon, it's just a fact that may or may not affect how you see its status. Theorymon is when you put together situations in a battle based on theory and logic, kind of like what me and Vance were talking about earlier about predicting around it (only that's kind of relevant to the topic). The only issue was getting straight how the Pokemon's status is determined, and Vance and I only disagree. It's pretty much that simple, lol. And the definition applies to Choice users too, lol. The definition has to be vague or it probably isn't going to be very good (due to how many different ways a Pokemon can be Uber). First of all, choice items are a liability to anything that wants to be Uber for the very reason you mentioned - the user is locked into one move. You can't just ignore that, and if it prevents a Pokemon from sweeping, then it is what it is. How does it not apply to Choice item users when they're so restricted and they're force to switch all the time in a metagame infested with SR? If the definition makes it harder for Choice item users to be bumped up, then so be it, because choice items do have a downside and not having any counters doesn't suddenly take away the downside. what I'm saying is that there is a difference between a Pokemon that is uncounterable with a Choice item and an uncounterable Pokemon without one. The definition would be flawed to ignore that (not to say that everything lies on counters but ugh, just an example). Also, a lot of leads can't do anything to stop SR from coming out. It's not like Crobat is on every team or that SR can only be set up turn 1. Besides, you can get past Crobat if you really want to (TrickScarf destroyed Crobat and a Scarfed SR user in general can get by it without any problem). SR is on almost every team so don't you think it would be kind of silly to just ignore it or not assume it is going to be up? I mean, every team with SDLuke or DDGyara runs under the assumption that SR will be up. EDIT: By the way, I think Staraptor has been discussed to its fullest (at this point both arguments have been presented and it's almost just posting to reiterate how we all disagree lol) and we could move on to one of the other ones. We don't have to or anything but I find Raikou and especially Gallade a mess to deal with. Luckily I usually crush it switching in, but it's a beast (@Gallade) |
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But seriously, getting in is hell for Rayquaza, SR weak, but once its in, it destroys nearly everything. That's kinda like Staraptor. |
No, I agree revenge killing is a poor argument (since you have to sacrifice something lol) but it can be a good one depending on what you're dealing with. It depends though, if you're letting yourself lose 50% of your health while proceeding with no item and locking yourself into Outrage, then it's a pretty fair argument (lol Garchomp).
If Staraptor comes in on Milotic using Recover then it probably isn't going to kill it =p Actually, it can be Brave Bird recoil stalled that way (for a few turns, at least). Yeah nobody is going to intentionally bring it in on an attack, but that's actually quite difficult when even stuff like Registeel has them (and once Staraptor has made an appearance, that stuff is insanely predictable). there I go with my theorymon again, but you have to admin, getting Staraptor in without it taking a lot of damage is REALLY hard. Not impossible by any stretch of the imagination, but hard. Even it it does, having one (or possibly two) of your STAB moves recoil-inducing defines suicidal, lol. My point is that Staraptor must go to too much effort to have the impact it often has (which is basically killing itself). That's the difference between it and Rayquaza and so many more. Quote:
EDIT: At least this thread is back on track. |
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Raikou will be moved up, its got great Speed, Special Attack and Special Defence. The CM sweeper is deadly, its move pool is shallow but despite that its way too strong for UU. However it does actually have a counter unlike Staraptor.
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Because everybody piling on a two-sentence post about what they think probably isn't going to go anywhere. |
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You're just listing its characteristics. You have to actually connect it to (what I assume would be) the offensive characteristic. I mean we already know that and that's why it's a suspect, but that hardly justifies a ban for it. We can't just go off banning stuff that's good because we don't want to have to worry about it when team building or new UU will turn into old UU very quickly. Raikou has to be better than good at its job, it has to be too good at its job. That's what you have to prove. |
Raikou is a total monster, but the thing is, it has a good deal of counters and checks. Psych Up Regice with Seismic Toss, Registeel and Regirock with Earthquake (the latter should be in Sandstorm, honestly), and even Chansey pretty much handle Raikou comfortably. This doesn't make Raikou any less threatening. Offensive teams get absolutely destroyed by Raikou. Bulky waters like Milotic get set up on, things like Shaymin are outrun and usually scared off by HP Ice / Signal Beam, and all common sweepers like Gallade, Staraptor, and Blaziken are outrun and OHKOed by a Calm Mind Thunderbolt (bar Gallade, and sometimes Blaziken...I don't know).
The SubCM set is easy to set up, really easy. So many things give it ample switch-in opprotunities. Something like a Blaziken locked in Overheat after the Special Attack drop is a god-send. Once you get this opprotunity, you should be salivating (yes, SALIVATING) on the keyboard, because now you get a free set up. Not a lot of things outrun it either, so if they rely on Special Attacks like Earth Power or a STAB __, chances are, they're done for. Common physical attackers get ripped to shreds by +2 Thunderbolt/Hidden Power. I don't know if it should be BL, but Raikou is a total beast. |
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Unlike Staraptor, it doesn't usually post an instant threat and can be dealt with fairly easily if you know what you're doing. Also, I tend to find that +1 TBolts come short of OHKOing many pokemon that can OHKO it in return. It's a menacing threat, but I never really find it too overpowering. I vote UU on Raikou. :D |
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i can't believe abomasnow and froslass are even on this list. they have their roles and challenging usages but they are in no shape or form threats to the UU metagame.
the rest, however, i could see the BL argument for. |
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Also, I'm not trying to be rude here but you shouldn't first say that he's an excellent support pokemon, and then switch to that he's a decent supporter in the next post. It's quite contradictory and it makes things confusing when your opinion switches in the span of one post. x_x |
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Froslass is only up there because of Abomasnow. I can't believe people overlooked Ludicolo and Roserade. |
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I've seen so many Hippopotas on teams, so even if Abomasnow is banned I predict there will lots of Snovers running around to irritate people who think that hail teams will disappear. >_> Obviously they won't be as effective as Abomasnow, but they'll still be used to start Hail and refresh it, anyway. Also, while Froslass's ability is great combined with Abomasnow, almost all the time when I actually do see a Froslass, she's not on a Hail team. Of course she still screws me over since I use a Hail team in UU frequently, lol. Snow Cloak hax is quite irritating, but it seems most Froslass are leads anyway, so they'll only activate that ability if Abomasnow is the other team's starter, or if they decide to switch out and switch back in later on if there is Abomasnow on their own team, which is quite rare since they're mostly suicide leads. Ludicolo and Roserade are pretty big threats in UU, but honestly I can't say that I've encountered many or have had trouble. Roserade is pretty powerful, but she is very frail to physical attacks so isn't too difficult to take down. Ludicolo seems to only be on rain teams, which he is a big pain on, but otherwise I never see him. I've noticed every day that there are many more weather based teams in UU, with most of them being rain, then hail, then sunny day. I think the thing about Ludicolo is that it relies on Rain Dance for speed, so if you manage to remove that I find he's not much of a threat at all. I'm also encountering more teams which aren't weather based, but have a pokemon with Sunny Day to nullify other weather effects. It's quite a good strategy since it screws over Hail and Rain Dance teams, but not many people are catching onto it yet. |
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I reckon Roserade is overlooked, she isn't that bad. Good Special Attack and Special Defence and decent Speed plus she can Subseed and support. |
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i wish they would just make more pokes with auto-weather abilities. UU Drought would be AWESOME. |
Well, I'm not sure if you know, but BL/UU/NFE were all merged. And since Roserade was BL before the merge, it's technically "UU" now.
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oh yeah, that's right. keke, that changes a lot now doesn't it? :D
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