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Yeah, two opportunities could destroy you. You can say that about a lot of CBers that have very few counters (Gallade comes to mind but you don't want that banned which I am confused by). But seriously, the chance to destroy you just oozes theorymon. A chance doesn't usually mean that it actually does. And a low chance of taking out one or two Pokemon isn't going to convince me to get Staraptor banned. BTW, you can throw Rotom on your team if you fear it THAT much. It's not like you're required to fear it and try to predict around it.
The thing about SubRoost is that it has to set up. It's a good way to stop teams that try to status it, but it's no more broken than CB Staraptor (and I know you didn't say it was, just saying). But this is all avoiding what determines this: the offensive characteristic. Can you tell me that Staraptor can sweep through a significant portion of teams with little effort? the last part really shoots down it getting banned imo, and that can shoot down the first part to some extent. I just don't see how, with that definition of Uber/BL (which I like a lot btw), you can call Staraptor a broken Pokemon. |
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CB Brave Bird vs. Max HP / Max Def Rotom: 42%-50% 2HKOs 93% of the time with Stealth Rock. Quote:
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No, it means it can be stopped. Quote:
Joke alarm went off right there. Quote:
Having a counter means you can be stopped. I'm not saying Gallade isn't a tough Pokemon to handle, I know it's a monster, and I apologize if my post came off as me saying "Gallade isn't monstrous because is has a counter". Quote:
Some teams are prepared for Staraptor, other ones aren't. Sadly, to be prepared for it you need a good sense of prediction, and resistances/immunties to its STAB Attacks and Close Combat. Let's not forget a small bit of wrong prediction can screw up your whole plan. Registeel + Spiritomb works well, but if someone Brave Birds your Spiritomb, and it dies, now you've lost your only chances of beating it. Quote:
yeah dude my team never died to garchomp we shuldn't ban it !!111 Quote:
You're right, my argument sort of contradicts itself. ;__; I can only speak from experiance, that without a bonafied Staraptor defensive core (needs to resist BB, CC, and Return/DE), it will destroy you. Same could be said for other Pokemon, however, in order to handle Staraptor, you need more than one Pokemon (I'm gonna ignore revenge killing, since I realize it's a stupid argument). Misprediction, or overprediction from your opponent can cause you to lose Staraptor insurance, meaning you could lose. Gallade is stopped by Spiritomb, true, although it HAS the potential to 2HKO with SD boosted Stone Edge, Sneak 2HKOs it thanks to Life Orb recoil. |
Your post came off that way because that's exactly what you said (well, almost, I'll explain in a sec). you said:
"Gallade does have a counter in Spiritomb, so I'm comfortable with him in UU." You are saying that you are fine with Gallade in UUs because it has one counter. You can't just say that and expect to be taken seriously =/ Spiritomb being the only way to "stop" it only makes it sound more broken, not the opposite. If you bring up counters, you have to explain why that makes it broken, because standing alone it's a horrible argument (as CB Salamence shows us?) This is exactly why the [email protected] thread is on the verge of being closed and why this one could be going down the same path - counters do not matter. If you don't think so, take it up with Smogon and their definition. But that's what we're going by and "golly gee, it has a counter so it's cool" isn't a valid argument. Now listen, I know you probably just messed up your wording, but that's basically what you're saying for Staraptor too. Let's throw in the worst of the Rotom formes into UUs for a second, a surefire counter to Staraptor. Of course that doesn't help it since that's another way to beat it, but I think it would be might silly to say that it would make or break where it went in the tiers. Revenge killing is hardly a bad argument for it either since it takes so much damage coming in from SR and the attack it will likely take. Normally it is a pretty poor argument for a Choice attacker, but you mustn't forget its SR and weather weak (which I haven't even brought up) and the fact that it's not that difficult to revenge kill without a centralized revenge killer (like a Scarf Milotic lol). You can throw in LO Shaymin and one-shot it with HP Ice or even Seed Flare pretty easily. So if I lose my darling Spiritomb, it's not like I lose like you suggest. Besides, it's at 40% health now (due to Brave Bird recoil and SR) and it's easy pickings. And let's go back to Salamence. Let's pretend it has no access to any special attack except the Fire-typed and lacks Dragon Dance, so its only viable damaging set is a Choice Band or SubRoost set (sound familiar?) Still, CBMence has no counters in the OU tier with a Choice Band. How is Salamence any different from Staraptor (especially since they're both SS/SR weak)? In fact, Salamence actually has something in the form of resistances and defensive stats, but when people bring that up for the Uber tier, it is shot down. What is the difference? How come counters seem to matter so much in this circumstance but not in another? We are going strictly by Smogon's definition here which is why I reject your argument as much as I did the one for Garchomp - Having or not having counters is such a ridiculous way of going about things that it really shouldn't even be taken seriously, and if you bring up counters, you need to be prepared to explain in full detail how that contributes to it fitting the definition of Uber/BL Smogon has produced. If you don't, your argument is not valid regardless of what side or Pokemon you're arguing for. It's that simple. Now I'll give you the opportunity to rework your argument. Go ahead and present it to us free of responding to what I have said (since the purpose of this post is more to say that no counters is an invalid and backwards argument rather than to try to prove how not BL Staraptor is or whatever...most of what I said about Staraptor was an example more than anything else) and free of what I just mentioned - the mentality that somehow the number and quality of the suspect's counters somehow determines how broken or not broken it is. Obviously it has an effect, but it's not even close to the sole determining factor. I guarantee that if this thread proceeds with such a mentality, it will be closed. I linked to the "new" definition of Uber/BL in the first post. So yeah. Don't take it as me scolding you since that's not really what I'm trying to accomplish, more that your argument kind of does fit under the whole counter mentality thing. Now why don't we "restart" this thread with the countering nonsense behind us? EDIT: Oh, this also applies to revenge killers and checks too (assuming that it's the basis of your argument, just like with counters...I am in no way saying that they are invalid parts of an argument, just invalid as whole arguments). |
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My Shaymin is Timid =) ...and Staraptor is usually Adamant (though not always, to be fair).
I'm saying that revenge killing and countering are valid if you don't go overboard. As in, they are only one aspect of your argument (especially with revenge killing since it's a lot more inefficient that countering lol) rather than your argument totally. Your argument needs to be based on Smogon's definition, and while counters and revenge killers can support your argument, none of them even come close to proving that a suspect fits the definition. That's why I'm so against Staraptor being banned - the ONLY thing that differentiates it from other physical sweepers is that it doesn't have any (common) counters, and it needs to lock itself into one move to accomplish that (while in the process forcing itself to have to switch in and out in a world ruled by SR...and it's hard to switch something with bad defenses in on even defensive Pokemon). It has so many drawbacks that I really don't even want to use it on any of my teams. There's a good reason to use it of course which is its sheer power and Brave Bird, but "no counters" is the only thing going for it, which doesn't do it for me and it doesn't do it for Smogon's definition either. |
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Now, I absolutely hate having to make situations such as these, since sometimes I don't believe other people when they put this in arguments. But believe me, I've lost many battles due to Staraptor just hammering my so called "counters" down to the ground. Quote:
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Rayquaza has way more going for it than no counters, namely both attacking stats easily toppling anything OUs has and a tremendous movepool. The SD set would be like SDLuke on crack, and Ray has passable defenses and good enough typing that would allow it to dominate the tier while being nearly impossible not just to counter, but also to revenge kill (Dragon Dance and Xspeed say hello). the difference is that Ray can blow up OUs without getting itself killed in the process and having relatively no reasonable way of dealing with it in general. Add in unpredictability (lol, it has multiple sets that you can't counter) and you've got something that does way more than not having any counters.
If Staraptor's effectiveness is situational than it probably isn't broken, lol. I mean, everything's effectiveness has to do with a situation somewhat, but Staraptor is so hit-or-miss that I find it hard to call broken. Too fragile, too suicidal, too metagame weak (by that I mean weak to common stuff like SR), too risky to be broken. Maybe our playing styles differ, but Staraptor hasn't caused me an ounce of trouble. Staraptor just has way too much trouble getting in. If you let it come in for free everything time then of course it's going to cause problems, but really, it's not very hard to Staraptor-proof your team (Surf from a standard walling Milotic plus SR basically kills it completely to show how easy it is to stop it from coming in). That's another difference it has with something like Garchomp - Garchomp was often praised with having defenses better than Swampert's. The only Pokemon not laughing at Staraptor is Deoxys-A. |
I'm not terribly concerned if Staraptor ends up BL or not. That said, I believe it does belong in BL, as it really doesn't contribute to the metagame in a positive manner. Before you take the time to tell me about using Smogon's Uber/BL Definitions, I am fully aware of this, but the definitions are incredibly vague and don't really apply at all to choice users, as they would have to sweep solidly, which is nigh impossible with one move.
To be honest, I don't see why we are arguing with theorymon (Also, with Crobat around, I don't see how SR is always up...) when it is clear that it's creating issues. The whole idea behind moving pokemon between tiers is to achieve more balanced and enjoyable metagames. Condsidering the vast possibilities in regards to different situations, factors (SR, SS, etc) and the need for teams to vary, it is impossible to establish just how good any pokemon is. Due to this, I think a certain amount of opinion and logic needs to come into play. |
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How is any of this theorymon? Staraptor basically being near impossible to counter isn't theorymon, it's just a fact that may or may not affect how you see its status. Theorymon is when you put together situations in a battle based on theory and logic, kind of like what me and Vance were talking about earlier about predicting around it (only that's kind of relevant to the topic). The only issue was getting straight how the Pokemon's status is determined, and Vance and I only disagree. It's pretty much that simple, lol. And the definition applies to Choice users too, lol. The definition has to be vague or it probably isn't going to be very good (due to how many different ways a Pokemon can be Uber). First of all, choice items are a liability to anything that wants to be Uber for the very reason you mentioned - the user is locked into one move. You can't just ignore that, and if it prevents a Pokemon from sweeping, then it is what it is. How does it not apply to Choice item users when they're so restricted and they're force to switch all the time in a metagame infested with SR? If the definition makes it harder for Choice item users to be bumped up, then so be it, because choice items do have a downside and not having any counters doesn't suddenly take away the downside. what I'm saying is that there is a difference between a Pokemon that is uncounterable with a Choice item and an uncounterable Pokemon without one. The definition would be flawed to ignore that (not to say that everything lies on counters but ugh, just an example). Also, a lot of leads can't do anything to stop SR from coming out. It's not like Crobat is on every team or that SR can only be set up turn 1. Besides, you can get past Crobat if you really want to (TrickScarf destroyed Crobat and a Scarfed SR user in general can get by it without any problem). SR is on almost every team so don't you think it would be kind of silly to just ignore it or not assume it is going to be up? I mean, every team with SDLuke or DDGyara runs under the assumption that SR will be up. EDIT: By the way, I think Staraptor has been discussed to its fullest (at this point both arguments have been presented and it's almost just posting to reiterate how we all disagree lol) and we could move on to one of the other ones. We don't have to or anything but I find Raikou and especially Gallade a mess to deal with. Luckily I usually crush it switching in, but it's a beast (@Gallade) |
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But seriously, getting in is hell for Rayquaza, SR weak, but once its in, it destroys nearly everything. That's kinda like Staraptor. |
No, I agree revenge killing is a poor argument (since you have to sacrifice something lol) but it can be a good one depending on what you're dealing with. It depends though, if you're letting yourself lose 50% of your health while proceeding with no item and locking yourself into Outrage, then it's a pretty fair argument (lol Garchomp).
If Staraptor comes in on Milotic using Recover then it probably isn't going to kill it =p Actually, it can be Brave Bird recoil stalled that way (for a few turns, at least). Yeah nobody is going to intentionally bring it in on an attack, but that's actually quite difficult when even stuff like Registeel has them (and once Staraptor has made an appearance, that stuff is insanely predictable). there I go with my theorymon again, but you have to admin, getting Staraptor in without it taking a lot of damage is REALLY hard. Not impossible by any stretch of the imagination, but hard. Even it it does, having one (or possibly two) of your STAB moves recoil-inducing defines suicidal, lol. My point is that Staraptor must go to too much effort to have the impact it often has (which is basically killing itself). That's the difference between it and Rayquaza and so many more. Quote:
EDIT: At least this thread is back on track. |
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Raikou will be moved up, its got great Speed, Special Attack and Special Defence. The CM sweeper is deadly, its move pool is shallow but despite that its way too strong for UU. However it does actually have a counter unlike Staraptor.
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Because everybody piling on a two-sentence post about what they think probably isn't going to go anywhere. |
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You're just listing its characteristics. You have to actually connect it to (what I assume would be) the offensive characteristic. I mean we already know that and that's why it's a suspect, but that hardly justifies a ban for it. We can't just go off banning stuff that's good because we don't want to have to worry about it when team building or new UU will turn into old UU very quickly. Raikou has to be better than good at its job, it has to be too good at its job. That's what you have to prove. |
Raikou is a total monster, but the thing is, it has a good deal of counters and checks. Psych Up Regice with Seismic Toss, Registeel and Regirock with Earthquake (the latter should be in Sandstorm, honestly), and even Chansey pretty much handle Raikou comfortably. This doesn't make Raikou any less threatening. Offensive teams get absolutely destroyed by Raikou. Bulky waters like Milotic get set up on, things like Shaymin are outrun and usually scared off by HP Ice / Signal Beam, and all common sweepers like Gallade, Staraptor, and Blaziken are outrun and OHKOed by a Calm Mind Thunderbolt (bar Gallade, and sometimes Blaziken...I don't know).
The SubCM set is easy to set up, really easy. So many things give it ample switch-in opprotunities. Something like a Blaziken locked in Overheat after the Special Attack drop is a god-send. Once you get this opprotunity, you should be salivating (yes, SALIVATING) on the keyboard, because now you get a free set up. Not a lot of things outrun it either, so if they rely on Special Attacks like Earth Power or a STAB __, chances are, they're done for. Common physical attackers get ripped to shreds by +2 Thunderbolt/Hidden Power. I don't know if it should be BL, but Raikou is a total beast. |
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Unlike Staraptor, it doesn't usually post an instant threat and can be dealt with fairly easily if you know what you're doing. Also, I tend to find that +1 TBolts come short of OHKOing many pokemon that can OHKO it in return. It's a menacing threat, but I never really find it too overpowering. I vote UU on Raikou. :D |
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i can't believe abomasnow and froslass are even on this list. they have their roles and challenging usages but they are in no shape or form threats to the UU metagame.
the rest, however, i could see the BL argument for. |
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