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First attempt at a competitive team
So apart from playing every game up through Sapphire and reading a few battle reports on these forums, I really don't have that much knowledge of Pokemon. Never really used EVs or any of these newer items/moves. I tried a few random games with this team and had mixed results, so I'd like some criticism and tips on how to improve.
[email protected] Belt 176 HP / 116 Atk / 20 Sp.D / 196 Speed Adamant Nature - Ice Shard - Stealth Rock - Earthquake - Toxic SR starter, dragon revenge killer, and stall breaker with toxic. Salamence @ Life Orb Trait: Intimidate EVs: 80 Atk / 176 Spd / 252 SAtk Rash Nature - Draco Meteor - Fire Blast - Brick Break - Roost Mixmence for sweeping and getting the quick kill in on those pesky pokes. Vaporeon @ Leftovers Modest Water Absorb 252 Defense 252 HP 6 Special Attack Moves: Surf Wish Protect HP Lightning Covers Gyarados, physical sponge, and wish passer. Blissey @ Leftovers Calm Natural Cure 252 Def 176 Special Defense 76 Special Attack 6 Speed Moves: Seismic Toss Thunder Wave Softboiled Ice Beam Typical Blissey...not much else Machamp @ Choice Band Adamant Guts 252 Attack 252 Speed 6 HP Moves: Close Combat Sleep Talk Stone Edge Payback Sweeper and status soak. I personally love bringing it out against blissey, anticipating the ghost type switch and 1 shotting it with payback :) [email protected] Ability: Natural Cure 252 SpA/176 Spe/80 HP Timid Nature (+Speed,-Attack) Calm Mind Psychic Grass Knot HP Fire Covers Scizor, subseed Breloom (use Machamp to take the spore), and most fighting and grass types. OP updated with suggestions from the thread, thanks so far :) The only teams I'm consistently having trouble with right now are ones that have Toxic Spikes and lots of stalls (CM Suicune, CM Cressy, Blissey, Hippo, etc). |
Aerodactyl isn't necessary since quick SR doesn't really benefit this team. Lead with Swampert, but the moveset needs a lot of help:
Swampert @ Leftovers Trait: Torrent EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk Relaxed Nature (+Defense, -Speed) - Earthquake - Ice Beam - Stealth Rock - Roar Does basically the same thing only it's more defensive, helps with your DDMence weakness, and stops Baton Passers. Your thoughts on Houndoom are correct. It's a rather poor mixed attacker. If you want one of those, I would use Salamence (as it provides a much-need fighting resist): Salamence @ Life ORb Trait: Intimidate EVs: 80 Atk / 176 Spd / 252 SAtk Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef) - Draco Meteor - Fire Blast - Brick Break - Roost MixMence. Destroys a lot of stuff. Flawed team, but a very good team for your first try. |
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Also: The extra EV points go in speed, right? (There are a couple extras). Without Waterfall, my team has no water moves, plus it makes torrent somewhat useless, you sure? |
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A Water move isn't really necessary (though you'd have one with Vaporeon) on Swampert since Ice Beam covers most of what Surf hits (and EQ hits Fire-types)...and any team is fine without one as long as it can beat the threats a Surfing Pokemon usually is hoping to defeat. |
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Vaporeon @ Leftovers Modest Water Absorb 252 Defense 252 Special Attack 6 HP Protect Wish Surf Haze I guess if Swampert is my physical soaker I can afford to go more offensive, but if he's offensive, I don't get why you would want him to have wish. A couple of battles have just made it painfully obvious I cannot kill beefy water types with only one person knowing one supereffective attack against water <_< I'm thinking up something and I'll edit it in when I do. How's this: Jirachi @ Leftovers Modest Natural Cure 252 Defense 252 Special Attack 6 HP Grass Knot U-Turn Recover Toxic I desperately need the grass move, and poison could come in handy. |
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HP Electric>Haze on Vaporeon, and it says "Hai Gyara. Bai Gyara.' in about 2 seconds. The Jirachi is pretty meh. If you want to use it though, you could use a CM Jirachi or Specs Jirachi. [email protected] Ability: Serene Grace 252 SpA/176 Spe/80 HP Timid Nature (+Speed,-Attack) ~Calm Mind ~Psychic ~Grass Knot ~Thunderbolt/HP Ice/HP Fire That last slot depends on what you really need to kill. If you use HP Electric on Vaporeon, then scratch Thunderbolt and use one of the HPs (Ice for dragons, fires for Steels) depending on what you really need help killing. [email protected] Specs Ability: Serene Grace 252 SpA/176 Spe/80 HP Timid Nature (+Speed,-Attack) ~Psychic ~Thunderbolt ~Grass Knot ~HP Ground/HP Ice/Trick The first 3 slots are standard, the last on is preference. HP Ground to nail Heatran, HP Ice for Celebi and dragon types, and Trick if you really want to screw something over. |
Agreeing on what anti said.
For Blissey 252 DEF / 176 SP.DEF / 80 SP.Att @calm. It needs maxed out def ALWAYS, since it then gives you the physical durability of a max hp Spiritomb or Scizor and so you dont die to Astonish lol. =/ I really dont like Aromatheraphy and passing up T-Wave for it is meh. Since without T-Wave Blissey fails to neutralize most threats and loses to stuff it should be beating like Nasty Plot Azelf. So yeah Thunderwave >> Aroma. I have my doubts about Scarf Machamp and its still REALLY slow even with the scarf boost so cant revenge kill much. Id make it probably Choice Band. [email protected] Band 116 HP / 252 ATT / 140 SPEED Adamant Nature Trait : Guts - Close Combat - Payback - Stone Edge - Sleep Talk With Sleep Talk you can switch this into sleep and status in general and get a cute guts boost, then you wouldnt need Aroma on Bliss. It would also give you some power something which you lack atm. Vappy wants Max HP / Max Def @ Bold, Hidden power Electric >> Haze. Scizor weak, both to CB and SD variants. Id put a Hidden Power Fire CM JirachI>> Mismagius since it does the same thing and beats Scizor. Swampert is a pretty bad DD Mence counter since it gets OHKO'd with +1 DD LO Outrage. Id maybe consider Mamoswine >> It, if only for Ice Shard it also gets Stealth Rock. Swampert / Mamoswine Jirachi Mence Machamp Blissey Vappy Something like this. |
On CBMachamp, wouldn't you want 116 HP/252 ATK/140 SPD to beat out standard Skarmory (and 2HKO with Close Combat)?
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I suppose its useful to outpace standard CB Tar, so yeah ill edit that in my post. |
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I have run into several Ice Shard/Endeavour/Earthquake/SR @ Focus Sash Mamoswines, is that what you'd suggest? Yeah, I was considering replacing my Mismagius already, all it was really good for was surprising people with HP fighting and OHKOing physical walls with the STAB Shadow Ball. The HP Lightning thing on Vaporeon makes sense, so I guess I'll do that. Vaporeon will also fill the physical soaker void left by Swampert so that all balances out. Thanks :) Edit: After testing out that form of Mammoswine, it hasn't really worked out. It's fairly fragile and I lose my ground type, then I'm weak to anyone that can spam thunder wave and has heavy electrical attacks on their team. I'm back to Swampert for now. Also: How do I take a Garchomp down? Right now, all I can really do is sacrifice whoever's out to the Outrage 1HKO then switch to Vaporeon and hope protect spam lasts till he's confused and I can get a lucky surf in. If he has a Lum Berry, he sweeps my team, nothing I can do. |
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Besides Swampert loses badly to mence (LO DD Outrage OHKO's and special versions lol at it), so you might aswell keep mamo if to just revenge it when its locked into Outrage (nothing on your team can atm). There is also a bulky Mamoswine set up too iirc, you could use that. Quote:
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RE: Garchomp: Well that's a relief. |
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176 HP / 116 Atk / 20 Sp.D / 196 Speed Adamant Nature - Ice Shard - Stealth Rock - Earthquake - Toxic / Reflect Evs let you survive a LO Electivires Cross Chop and a STAB Surf from 269 sp.att. 196 speed evs outpace Jolly Tyranitar (245 speed). Expert Belt lets you OHKO Max hp tar and 4 hp Metagross, although you can still use leftovers. |
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The problem I'm having now is calm mind Cresselia...I lack any dark (she outspeeds Machamp and Psychic is OHKO) or bug attacks and CM spam with her moonlighting to keep HP up then psychic pretty much sweeps my team. Blissey can stall but will eventually be taken out once all the CMs are up. Most of this is end-game after both I and my opponent have incurred losses, but it's a frustrating scenario nonetheless. Also, any suggestions how to deal with toxic spike stall teams? Double layer plus blissey/suicune/cress/hippo just kills me. |
Dont double post please.
Toxic >> Moonlight cressy btw, use that on mamo if you have problems with it. As for stall, well you cant really stop it tbh. You have to outplay them and NOT let them set up, and that mence is great at taking out stall. You could always slap some specs on vappy if you want some more attacking power. Since you will find most of the stuff will set up on either bliss or vappy, so making it more offensive will give them less chances to switch in. You might want to update the first post with what you have currently, this will help everyone help you. Ill come back later but its kinda late and im cut short for time. |
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Well you could use Starmie >> Vappy if you really want Rapid Spin and it still does kinda the same job. Although its kinda Pursuit bait and doesnt really help with stall because any well built stall has a Spin blocker and you lose Wish, so eh. I guess Wish on Blissey could work if you chose to do this.
[email protected] 156 Hp / 154 Def / 200 Speed Timid Nature Trait : Natural Cure - Recover - Rapid Spin - Thunderbolt - Surf [email protected] 252 DEF / 80 SP.ATT / 176 SP.DEF Calm Nature Trait : Natural Cure - Wish - Protect - Ice Beam - Seismic Toss Zapdos might work >> Jirachi with a LO + Roost set to help with cune whilst still covering Scizor well. [email protected] Orb 80 HP / 252 SP.ATT / 176 Speed Timid Nature - Thunderbolt - Heat Wave - Hidden Power [Grass] - Roost Your evs/Natures are also messed up Blissey wants 252 DEF / 80 SP.ATT / 176 SP.DEF Machamp wants 116 HP / 252 ATT / 140 SPEED I think another problem you have is that you lack anything to like stat up and inflict pain, you know, that SD Lucario/Scizor, DD Mence etc that every team has. Id probably make mence a DDer tbh. |
heres another mamo lead that i saw works like a dream..
Mamoswine (M) @ Focus Sash Ability: Snow Cloak EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Earthquake - Ice Shard - Endeavor - Stealth Rock credits to steller for this set. heres how to handle meta lead Mamoswine used Earthquake Metagross lost 80-90% of its health Metagross used Meteor Mash Mamoswine hung on with Focus Sash -- Switch to anything that resists BP.and finish it.Then mamo can come in to endevour + Ice shrad any pokes slower than it. |
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Also, Zapdos can't live an unboosted Bullet Punch after SR comes in, plus life orb sapping his health makes him not be able to stay in too long...I think I'm going to go back to Celebi, but maybe replace Psychic with Recover for sustainability. |
Considering this is your first attempt at making a team, I'd like to congratulate you on it before I critique it. You managed to make a semi-balance between offense and defense, without being completely weak to many of the metagame's threats. Nice job ;) But enough of being nice, it's onto the team itself...
That Mamoswine lead you have currently is nice, so I'll leave that alone. The main thing I want to look at is your Salamence. Yes, I realize you run the "superior" MixMence, and I know everyone's going to go crazy when I say this, but seriously; try the New MixMence. Outrage / Draco Meteor / Earthquake or Brick Break / Fire Blast is what I use currently, and while a lot of people are bound to go crazy using "theory" to prove its inability to deal damage, I've used it on all of my teams currently, and it deals more damage, pound for pound, than the MixMence you currently use. I realize losing Roost is a real bummer, but considering the job OF a wall-breaker is to break walls, you'll find "New MixMence" has an easier time handling things that don't die to Draco Meteor. Outrage hits Blissey harder than Brick Break anyway, though locking yourself in may seem "game-breaking". Honestly, try it out, and if you still feel like it, use the old one. Most of the threats (Salamence, Gyarados, etc...) are pretty much covered by your defensive core, although one thing that bothers me a bit is Infernape. "But Vance, he has Vaporeon!". Yes, but he has no insurance against Swords Dance Infernape. After a Swords Dance, Close Combat OHKOs Vaporeon with Stealth Rock (even without, you get KOed 46% of the time). Blaze Kick handles Jirachi, Stone Edge takes care of Salamence, and the rest of your team is battered so badly I won't even mention it. Luckily, SD Ape is rare, but the point remains; it 6-0s you. You could consider Starmie, since it "sort of" counters Gyarados with the correct spread, although you have to make sure you outrun Infernape and can KO it with Surf. Ironically, Swords Dance Lucario isn't as big as a problem, but only because of Jirachi. Good job for your first team. Most threats are handled are just plain beaten into submission. |
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I've become fully aware that I'm weak against a lot of the "rarer" threats..I got 6-0'd by an Infernape, and by a Furret that use belly drum followed by an extremespeed/return spam, and almost (barely survived) an Abipom with fakeout/Last Resort. Normally I take infernape by sending out Vaporeon and protecting for a turn to see if he's going to use Close Combat or Grass Knot, then hope to god I can outpredict him. I also have been experimenting with Scalemance, and so far I've determined that the DD mence that was suggested just doesn't do it for my team...I have no spinner so almost always they'll have SR up and I won't have enough time to get the sweep. Not only that, but DD mence is so common almost every team has a counter. For your Mixmence though, why Outrage AND Draco Meteor? I do agree, Roost isn't really the best idea because it's not really SUPPOSED to survive, it's supposed to come in and kill things then die. |
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49.84% - 58.88% +2 LO Bullet Punch doesnt do fatal amounts to even 80 hp /0 def Zappy so i dont know where you concocted that from. For your "life orb wears it down" argument, that is where Roost comes in. You DO have a spinner if you add in the starmie that was suggested. Quote:
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Oh, and update the Blissey already; 252 Def/80 SpA/176 SpD so you don't die to every physical attack in the game.
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One little thing to d2m: on Zappy, if you're scared of LO recoil coupled with SR, you could run the Speed Tank set. You lose power, but you still get OHKOes on things like Lucario, Breloom(lol), etc. |
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