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What will happen to Ubers?
Correct me if this isnt the right place for this, but I read at the top Discuss everything related to wireless battles here, so I assumed that this was the right place for it.
Anyways, when Arceus is officialy released, in Ubers its going to be like Scizor and Heatran, but much worse. Almost every team is going to have an Arceus, and if you were to counter it effectivley, you may even need more than one due to its insane versability. What are your thoughts? |
Haha, an Ubers ban tier? That wouldn't be unlike the suggestions of the "Garchomp" tier... In any case, if that happens and Arceus Extremekills everything in sight, well... he's god, what do you expect?
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Arceus is banned from Ubers. >.> Unless you use the Extended Time Clause.
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This is probably going to be better suited for Strategies & Movesets.
-MOVED- |
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Me and my friends who have done Ubers allow said Arceus because we really do not care.
It doesn't change anything. The hardest thing I've had to beat was a CBEspeed Normal Arceus who swept a couple pokes, but my Mew lolzed at it (special Mew made by me (H) ) |
Ill keep this open on the basis it doesnt break down and become overun with logical fallacies. So lets keep it that way.
As for Arceus, the thing is really hard to stop. Im mostly concerned with what the extremekiller will do. Its bulky as hell, gets recover and a massively powerful priority STAB in the form of Extremespeed move, the combination of this effectively nulls pretty much all revenge killers (Apart from possibly scarf Dialga, but i really doubt that can OHKO). I guess a combo of Giratina/Lugia and a steel wall would in theory beat it, but a crit from shadow claw OHKO's (high chance btw) the aformentioned psychic/ghosts and the steel walls have to watch out for overheat. Which again is something else Arceus has, extreme versistility. On the other hand however i guess it would make a good counter to some threatening pokemon such as Darkrai and Rayquaza via using its countering utility set and would thus make both stall AND offense even more viable which i guess is a positive thing ? I dont know, i would like to see it tested later down the line but its far from being a priority in terms of importance. Im on the fence with it atm, so yeah. Mew is a VERY shakey counter stricken, it has a high chance to get OHKO's with shadow claw with sr up (this is with max hp/max def and a + def nature). |
I don't think Arceus should be unbanned. It has a godly movepool, best stats, and is miles above any other single Pokemon, you'd have to build teams specifically JUST to counter him, and even then, if he runs an unorthodox set, you're boned. Any pokemon that mandates 2 or more members of your opponent's team shouldn't be usable, all it does is make the metagame boring and predictable, which OU really already is because of every team having Scalemence, Heatran, Scizor and 3 others.
This sort of thing is why I have started going into UU and NU which, while less powerful, provide a chance to use many different teams all of good viability. |
After a SD it OHKO's Darkrai, Palkia, Latias and most of the time Mewtwo by ExtremeSpeed with a Silk Scarf boost, and Mewtwo gets KO'd all the time if Arceus has a Life Orb. Im not sure but i assume Dialga and Metagross are at least 2HKO'd by Earthquake, and Mew, as D_A said, is dealt with, Giratina is 2HKO'd with a SD by Shadow Claw, OHKO guaranteed if it scores a Critical hit. Rayquaza, if not OHKO'd by ExtremeSpeed will have at least 80~90% dealt to it.
On top of all this it boasts a HP of 444 and its two defenses reach a minimum of 276 each. |
So just make a new clause for the Uber tier. Either allow Arceus in a lineup or don't. Pretty simple solution imo.
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anyway, i don't really like arceus. its just a shape(type?)shiftin' rat... he should be banned. but after all its the moves and how you use the pokemon. right? |
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FalconJoker, there is a clause already to ban Arceus called the Extended Time Clause (I think), like I said before...
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The event is giving it out at level 100, and will have Judgement, Shadow Force, Spacial Rend, and Roar of Time.
Any person that plays Pokemon should see the flaw to giving it out at level 100, it can't be EV trained. Chances are it's never going to reach maximum stats because of this, unless you have a whole lot of berries to get rid of EVs and vitamins to replace them, that still won't be the same as training it from an earlier level. Really, what are the chances of receiving an Arceus that has a good nature, IVs, and EVs to boot? That's a very small chance, and most likely the Arceus seen running around on Wi-Fi are going to be straight from the event, without even bothering to check if it was satisfactory or not. I'm not saying that there aren't any people that will use Arceus to it's full potential, there certainly are people that will be able to completely sweep with it and will train it. But chances of it taking over wi-fi are slim, and I'd bet most won't even bother changing the berry for a plate. Remember when Darkrai came out? I'd say about eight out of ten times the moveset was the same exact one that was given out at the event. I'm expecting Arceus to be the same deal, and I'm really expecting to see a whole lot of them that don't even have a plate or benificial item. |
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If it is at Lv100, then it will really limit what people can do with it. It can only have a maximum of 100 EVs in each stat. Even still. I'm not aware of how it would perform in Ubers, so that needs testing. Could we test it on out Shoddy Server? |
I doubt we'll have to worry about this for a while.
It's still a few months until it can be gotten in Japan without cheating, and even then, the only legitimate one we can get can't be EV trained, since it's at lv. 100. |
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Jirachi is an awful counter to the extreme killer tbh, it gets nailed by SD LO eq. It OHKO's no matter how defensive the ev spread is. Scizor and Forry have to worry about overheat too. Its probably a matter of moveset syndrome when dealing with it, "if it lacks x move y pokemon walls it". I guess you are right with the Kyogre thing, but as said im still on the fence with this. |
I think it's Uber. One is strong enough, but if a team has two (or more) seperate Arceus' it will pose a massive threat, especially with the ability of different types depending on plate.
All I'm trying to point out is that people will eventually manage to get hold of several Arceus' through trade etc., and instead of having a balanced multi-type team, they could have a multi-type team of Ubers by giving each Arceus a desired type. It's a massive advantage that Arceus can change type, that's all I'm stating. |
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It's also pretty obvious Arceus is gonna be uber, especially since he's already classified as Uber by Smogon (although he's still banned because he hasn't been released yet). |
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Are different forms of Pokemon like Deoxys fall under species clause? Or can battlers use Deoxys-Attack AND Deoxys-Speed on the same team? I'd assume the same would go for Arceus and it's forms (and we're assuming that the alternate forms would even work on Wi-Fi) |
Smogonsays about Arceus:
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Personally, I think it should be unbanned because it would be VERY fun to use. XD |
Personally, I don't think Arceus should ever be unbanned, I also thing some tiers (especially the lower tiers) should also get an extended banlist.
Why? It's quite simple, I view this sort of business as a strategy game where prediction, innovation in teambuilding, and good use of strategy should mean more than picking the 2-3 strongest pokemon and running with them. If Arceus were unbanned, for example, every other team would be mandated to both have an Arceus of their own and build (most likely multiple) Arceus counters. That means roughly half the team of every ubers team would have to be nearly the same, and I just don't think that's a good thing. Allowing for innovation and unorthodox sets used well in conjunction with good prediction should be able to overcome a "standard" team, but it just plain doesn't in this context. |
Also, smogon are talking about having the species clause as their next "suspect" >.> that would overpower arceus completely.
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Although I am just a beginner to competitive battling, I think that Arceus should stay banned. It can be used to take out almost anything, and like most people have said, teams will have to be based around taking it out.
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Counters
As versatile as Arceus is, every individual set is entirely counterable. Giratina and Lugia can switch in on an Extreme Killer set very easily with their ridiculous Defense and HP and burn or Whirlwind it away, respectively; additionally, intelligent switching lets them use their Pressure ability to disintegrate its meager 8 ExtremeSpeed PP. Skarmory works similarly to Lugia, although the Overheat version squashes it. However, Skarmory is also capable of dealing with the Ghost Swords Dancer, a distinction shared by the insanely defensive Normal Arceus, which can Will-o-Wisp or inflict serious damage on both species of Arceus. A very defensive Choice Band Groudon can also counter the Swords Dance Ghost Arceus, barring a critical hit from Shadow Claw. While not a counter in adherence to its strictest definition, a Kyogre with Choice Scarf can switch in after it has knocked something out, and then proceed to land a swift OHKO with Water Spout, assuming that it did not suffer from damage beforehand. All counters to the Swords Dance Ghost Arceus except the Normal Arceus must caution against walking directly into a Calm Mind version, though. Speaking of the Calm Mind versions with an auxiliary attack, Blissey can use Toxic to wear them down if they have Recover; if they have Substitute, that means they lack any recovery whatsoever, which a Calm Minding Blissey can counter by breaking the Substitutes down slowly. If the Calm Mind sweeper is Ghost, then a Normal Arceus will be able to switch in on its relatively weak Ice Beams and use Toxic or Punishment, while a Bug-type sweeper is devastated by Heatran and Ho-oh, which sport excellent resistances to its attacks and do considerable chunks of damage with Fire-type attacks that are likely boosted by sunny weather. Latias and Latios with Refresh can quickly decimate Fighting Arceus as well as Grass Arceus. Rest and Sleep Talk Giratina is in the same boat as Latias. With its base 120 Special Defense, Giratina does not fear much from either of those, barring a critical hit or freeze from Ice Beam. With Pressure on its side, Giratina can quickly dispose of Ice Beam's PPs, leaving Arceus with absolutely no weapons against Giratina. However, Giratina must be cautious walking into versions with Calm Mind, as they will turn the tables quite easily. Although it fears repeatedly switching into STABed Judgments, Blissey can come into either of Grass or Fighting Arceus, land its own Toxic, Softboiled and switch out before she takes too much from Toxic if Arceus inflicted it on Blissey upon switching in. Dialga and Lugia can handle the Grass variant fairly nicely; the former can Bulk Up and dispatch Arceus with a powered up Dragon Claw, whereas the latter can Toxic and Whirlwind away Grass Arceus out of the battlefield. Metagross finds itself not pressured to switch into Grass Arceus and 2HKO with Choice Band Ice Punch or Meteor Mash. Heracross does not fear any of its attacks, and swiftly disposes of Arceus with Megahorn. Heatran, with its 4x resistance to both Ice and Grass, can quickly demolish Arceus with powerful STABed Choice Specs Flamethrower. The mono-attacking sets are a bit complicated to counter as it is difficult to inflict any type of lasting damage due to the combination of Substitute and Recover or Rest and Sleep Talk. The Bug-types are the easiest to counter; Giratina with Roar can remove any stat boosts as well as a possible Substitute, while Ho-oh and Heatran sport quadruple resistances to Bug and powerful Fire-type attacks to retaliate with. The Ice-type special sweeper is relatively easy to deal with, as well; the Fire-types still work, and Kyogre with Calm Mind rends it apart due to resistance to Ice and an amazing base 140 Special Defense. Metagross can switch in and use a Choice Banded Meteor Mash to easily dispose of Arceus. Lastly, the Dragon-type is countered by Metagross. The Choice Band set is relatively simple to counter. Giratina can switch into any attack, even a Dragon Claw, and then one may work on switching in Pokémon that resist the chosen attack; to ease matters, Giratina's Pressure ability ruins ExtremeSpeed and Punishment. Lugia and its massive Defense, Reflect, Pressure and Roost does the same too. The Arceus that are designed to counter other Pokémon are usually beaten by a solid attacker that is not weak to one of their attacks. Any non-Poison or Steel-type must beware of Toxic, however. My2-cents: HAH!!!!! I do believe you guys are only complaning because you do not know how to counter this so-called "God"! |
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And you are trolling why ? Honestly this was an ass post, please stop. Actually this thread is highly pointless anyway tbh. ~Locks~ |
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