The PokéCommunity Forums

The PokéCommunity Forums (https://www.pokecommunity.com/index.php)
-   Previous Generations (https://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=200)
-   -   3rd Gen What is the best dragon or steel pokemon? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=176296)

Zacch2 April 20th, 2009 5:24 PM

What is the best dragon or steel pokemon?
 
Well i would say dragonite, metagross, or salamance, because they are on my team, but what do you guys think?

Cirrus April 20th, 2009 5:36 PM

'Mence and 'gross. Excellent Pokemon... pity salamence is so hard to obtain.

Translator April 20th, 2009 6:56 PM

I would say it's Salamence and Metagross. Aggron is also a choice but I prefer Metagross over him.

Ninja Caterpie April 20th, 2009 7:10 PM

Metagross for sure.

Dragon... I'd say Flygon or Salamence.

Milke April 21st, 2009 7:01 AM

In third generation, Metagross and Salamence. Always.

Master Terrador April 21st, 2009 7:11 AM

Metagross and Salamence...I always have them on my team...

Veristical Blaze April 21st, 2009 7:42 AM

Aggron/Metagross and Flygon/Salamence

DARKSHADE April 21st, 2009 7:52 AM

salamence! i never really liked metagross...

Captain Fabio April 21st, 2009 9:48 AM

I think 'Gross is one of the better Pokemon.
'Mance is the best dragon in this generation in my opinion.

BHwolfgang April 21st, 2009 1:00 PM

It has to be either Salamance/Metagross or Flygon/Aggron. <3

Azonic April 21st, 2009 3:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Caterpie (Post 4566706)
Metagross for sure.

Dragon... I'd say Flygon or Salamence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veristical Blaze (Post 4567795)
Aggron/Metagross and Flygon/Salamence

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHwolfgang (Post 4568648)
It has to be either Salamance/Metagross or Flygon/Aggron. <3

Flygon and Aggron aren't contenders for strongest steel or dragon.

f l y g o n

It's in the OU Tier in the Advanced Generation, but is it the best? Well, let me evaluate. I say that Salamence outclasses Flygon in this tier. Both are very good dragon Pokemon, but Salamence is overall better.

Flygon's Stats:
HP: 80
Attack: 100
Defense: 80
Special Attack: 80
Special Defense: 80
Speed: 100

Salamence's Stats:
HP: 95
Attack: 135
Defense: 80
Special Attack: 110
Special Defense: 80
Speed: 100

None of Flygon's stats are larger than Salamence's, whereas Salamence outclasses Flygon in HP, Attack, and Special Attack. This gives Salamence the upper hand in bulkiness (even though it's marginal) and both of its offenses. Salamence is extremely versatile because it is able to Attack with both offenses with great power; Flygon is quite predictable with not many options at its grasp, with most variants being of Choice Band.

Salamence hits extremely hard with a 135 (most of the time boosted) Attack stat. If it gets in 2 Dragon Dances or so, it's gonna take a lot to stop it. Flygon can't pull this off as well with a smaller attack stat and being a bit more fragile and vulnerable.

Flygon's Weaknesses: x4 Ice, x2 Dragon
Flygon's Resistances: x0 Electric, x0 Ground, x0.5 Fire, x0.5 Rock, x0.5 Poison

Salamence's Weaknesses: x4 Ice, x2 Dragon, x2 Rock
Salamence's Resistances: x0 Ground, x0.25 Grass, x0.5 Water, x0.5 Fire, x0.5 Bug, x0.5 Fighting

Flygon may have the upper hand when it comes to weaknesses, but Salamence surely outclasses Flygon when it comes to resistances. Salamence may only have one more resistance, but it's resisted move types are much more common. Come on, it's not every day your opponent uses a Poison move on you! Salamence also gets a little more bulk with 95 HP, so that should help it live a little longer.

a g g r o n

I'll stand by my opinion that Metagross is far superior to Aggron in terms of power and strength. There is a reason why Metagross is in OU and Aggron is in UU. I'll get us started by taking a peek at their statistics first.

Aggron's Stats:
HP: 70
Attack: 110
Defense: 180
Special Attack: 60
Special Defense: 60
Speed: 50

Metagross's Stats:
HP: 80
Attack: 135
Defense: 130
Special Attack: 95
Special Defense: 90
Speed: 70

Whoa there, there's quite a big difference between the two. You have to admit, Aggron's special defenses just suck. It has no speed to save it from the nightmare either. Low HP, terrible special defense, and a lot of common specially-typed weaknesses aren't helping it at all. We'll get into weaknesses later. You'll notice an impressive 180 defense stat, however. But is it enough? I'm questioning it's usefulness right now. A majority of Aggron's lack of potential has to do with it's typing. Aggron, with no boosted offenses, can't hit very hard on it's own. It is easy to wall, set-up on, and stall out, giving the opponent a big opportunity to win.

Metagross, on the other hand, has an impressive 135 attack stat, with especially durable defenses (both physically and specially) too. What a great combination! A balance in offense and defense make up to a great tank Pokemon. It has an interesting movepool with Explosion, Pursuit, etc. Okay, onto weaknesses / resistances:

Aggron's Weaknesses: x4 Fighting, x4 Ground, x2 Water
Aggron's Resistances: x0 Poison, x0.25 Normal, x0.25 Flying, x0.5 Ice, x0.5 Psychic, x0.5 Ghost, x0.5 Dark, x0.5 Dragon, x0.5 Rock

Metagross's Weaknesses: x2 Fire, x2 Ground
Metagross's Resistances: x0 Poison, x0.25 Psychic, x0.5 Normal, x0.5 Grass, x0.5 Ice, x0.5 Flying, x0.5 Rock, x0.5 Dragon, x0.5 Steel

Metagross and Aggron both have a number of resistances. However, it's the weaknessess that hinders Aggron's ability greatly. Weaknesses to some of the most common types in the metagame aren't helping Aggron at all (especially when they are x4, with one x2 weakness on the special side). Even with 180 Defense, Aggron dies easily to a harsh blow from fighting or ground type moves. Take my word for it, I've battled Aggron before and not even it's 180 Defense can take x4 hits. Needs better HP too.

Metagross has a much better typing over all. Two common weaknesses, only two, doesn't hinder it that much. At least it's not a damaging x4 weakness like Aggron. Metagross's high attack stat allows it to deal damage, while it's defense stats and the number of resistances allow it to take hits very well. It's a strong and durable tank for the OU environment.

So overall, Salamence and Metagross win it for the strongest Dragon / Steel type in the Advanced Generation. Rayquaza wins the prize for toughest dragon if we include ubers.

shanecdavis April 21st, 2009 8:50 PM

There is no question that Rayquaza is the best Dragon-type. Not even close.

Best Steel-type goes to Skarmory. Not as offensive as Metagross, but has a much better typing and is much stronger defensively.

sambo626 April 23rd, 2009 2:47 AM

Personally, I think Metagross is definitely the best steel type and Dragonite whips salamance any day.

Azonic April 23rd, 2009 5:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sambo626 (Post 4573380)
Dragonite whips salamance any day.

Nope. In a head on match with Dragonite vs. Salamence, it comes down to speed. I'm pretty sure they both OHKO eachother with supereffective moves, so speed is the final factor it comes down to. Salamence has an advantage with 100 speed over Dragonite's 80, so Salamence will go first and OHKO Dragonite before it has a chance to attack.

Pokeyomom April 23rd, 2009 6:37 PM

I personally love steelix. I am not to knowledgable about stats, but I think its defense is just killer.

Tyranitar042 April 23rd, 2009 8:40 PM

Metagross/ and well since shanecdavis pulls another good point as always salamence is no match against the uber and most powerful dragon rayquaza.

dumbpikAchu April 24th, 2009 5:32 AM

where's the love for the original? You're hugging something so unreliable..
MOST PEOPLE HAVE THEIR DRAGONITES WITH ICEBEAM!! including me..
Dragonite ;D shut the **** up about Rayquee, it's a legendary!

Tyranitar042 April 24th, 2009 8:01 AM

oh come on even a dragonite with ice beam cant kill a rayquaza just because of speed rayquaza is unbeatable of course he is a legendary but zacch2 never mentioned what was limited which shanecdavis realised and of course rayquaza. No offense to anyone but a dragonite would lose in a battle between rayquaza.

The Red Chain April 24th, 2009 9:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyranitar042 (Post 4576868)
oh come on even a dragonite with ice beam cant kill a rayquaza just because of speed rayquaza is unbeatable of course he is a legendary but zacch2 never mentioned what was limited which shanecdavis realised and of course rayquaza. No offense to anyone but a dragonite would lose in a battle between rayquaza.


Salamence would mop the floor with Rayquaza.. Outspeeding can be a nasty thing.
But yes, of course Dragonite's Ice Beam [1st usage] wouldn't kill Rayquaza, only reason is because Dragonite is a physical Pokemon, and Ice Beam is a special move.

Dragonite is bulkier than Rayquaza, so chances are it could survive an attack thrown at it on the first turn, then wipe out Rayquaza with a single Dragon Claw.
I don't have a damage calculator, so I can't tell you precisely if it would go just like that.. but it would definitely be similar.

Edit ; Calculated it. Turns out if Rayquaza ends up using a move like Dragon Claw and it doesn't hit a critical Dragonite will survive it.
Then if you put a move such as Outrage on Dragonite and use it, Rayquaza will faint, even without a critical.
But I do admit if Rayquaza does Outrage as well before Dragonite, there is no doubt in my mind Dragonite would faint.
So this argument between whichever dragon is better is pretty much even sided.

Zacch2 April 24th, 2009 9:17 AM

I think Dragonite would beat Raquaza, seeing that Raquaza is fast, but cant hit as hard as Dragonite.

Tyranitar042 April 24th, 2009 10:02 AM

you are right it is all about which is faster but i was leaning a little more torwards rayquaza using ice beam as well because of the type (dragon/flying) double-damage. I never liked dragon type moves but loved how they were so diverse with movesets.

Dragonite's Sp.Atk-328 max with beneficial nature Spd-284 with benficial nature

Rayquaza's Sp.Atk-359 max with a hindering nature Spd-289 with a neutral nature

As it is seen here a dragonite cannot beat a rayquaza the only way possible is IF rayquaza's ice beam misses highly unlikely. It's ok I'm not saying that I dont like dragonite in fact i hate rayquaza but he can be dragonite hands down and i accept that.

The Red Chain April 24th, 2009 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyranitar042 (Post 4577057)
you are right it is all about which is faster but i was leaning a little more torwards rayquaza using ice beam as well because of the type (dragon/flying) double-damage. I never liked dragon type moves but loved how they were so diverse with movesets.

Dragonite's Sp.Atk-328 max with beneficial nature Spd-284 with benficial nature

Rayquaza's Sp.Atk-359 max with a hindering nature Spd-289 with a neutral nature

As it is seen here a dragonite cannot beat a rayquaza the only way possible is IF rayquaza's ice beam misses highly unlikely. It's ok I'm not saying that I dont like dragonite in fact i hate rayquaza but he can be dragonite hands down and i accept that.

Wrong again.
Used the damage calculator with the stats you stated above. Dragonite would still survive with 6 hp, as long as there is no critical, and Dragonite's health is maxed.. [The health being maxed on Dragonite is extremely likely].
So then if Dragonite used Outrage Rayquaza would faint, even with maxed health.. -shrug-
Oh, and Outrage is physical. So Sp. Def would do it no good in a face off.

Tyranitar042 April 24th, 2009 10:14 AM

ok i was justed adding some stats in there by the way where did you get the damage calculator id like to be able to use one so i wont be wrong again but what about an icebeam because nobody would take a rayquaza with a hindered sp.atk which is higher when neutral.

Try these stats because i dont have a damage calc.

Dragonite/spd-decrease sp.def-increase
hp/atk/def/sp.atk/sp.def/spd
386/367/289/299/328/233

Rayquaza/sp.def-decrease sp.atk-increase
414/399/279/438/251/289

this is the stats all neutral except 2 for each i just want to know what an ice beam from a rayquaza with maxed sp.atk would do against a dragonite with maxed sp.def

The Red Chain April 24th, 2009 10:27 AM

Dragonite ; Neutral Sp. Def 236 and 386 HP
Rayquaza ; Beneficial Sp. Atk 438.

Rayquaza would definitely one hit KO Dragonite.
But why get a Beneficial nature in Sp. Atk for Ray in the first place? The best thing about Rayquaza is Dragon Dance..
So if you were to think of the majority of Rayquazas [Physical], up against the majority of Dragonites [Also Physical], Dragonite would win.
Hindering nature is actually lower than Neutral nature..

Jas_66 April 24th, 2009 10:36 AM

this is so obvious to me lolz....
Salamance and Metagross...
as they are both on my team...
they rule the can take down 2-3 pokemon....
once my metagross took out 5 pokemon by itself...
if u give it the right EV's to both metagross and salamance they can KO most pokemon hands down...
no doubt about it.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 7:44 AM.


Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2018 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2016 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.

Acknowledgements
Use of PokéCommunity Assets
vB Optimise by DragonByte Technologies Ltd © 2023.