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-   -   4th Gen Shinto Ruins Discussion (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=182807)

billi1000 June 19th, 2009 1:44 AM

Quote:

>Feelings< Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura
I'm basically saying, if we believe that Mt. Silver is now part of the Indigo Plateau, that the Mt. Silver we explored in G/S/C can't be the ACTUAL Mt. Silver - meaning we've never gone through the ACTUAL Mt. Silver.

That sounds unrealistic. Remakes can easily change around map placements.
Well, it could be something like the part we visited before was a different section of Mount Silver, maybe?
And now, another new section will be available to be discovered.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura
If the name is truly a mix of "Shinou" and "Jouto" or "Kantou", then like Tohjo Falls, it'll keep a similar name. You're probably looking at something like "Sinntoh Ruins" or something. On the other hand, if it's NOT a mix, nor NoA's translation team doesn't see the coincidence, we'll see a different name.

No, not at all.
The name "Shinto" is not a mix of "Shinou" and "Johto" or "Kantou", though that's a clever one you came up with, I must say...

The name is actually directly derived from one of the most followed Religion in Japan.
The word "Shinto" is translated to be "Way of the Gods".
So, the chances are that they will not change it while they translate it.
But if religion issues come up, then they might be forced to, but I don't want it to be changed...
At last someone gave the translation of the word Shinto, thanks alot Feelings, so its Way of the Gods huh, that sounds like one capturing name, well i agree that it ll be better of if they dont change it for the english version since it has a religious meaning, or may be they will to something like the ruins of the gods or the deities or something on those lines??

oh and Hiroshi, i remember the indigo plateau being behind mount silver from the east and not on it directly and was located in kanto so it isnt on the johto map, unless nintendo has remaped its possition wich is most likely because i can see the indigo plateau on the new johto map like the old one...
http://i44.tinypic.com/whi6c8.jpg

HeartGoldnSoulSilver June 19th, 2009 1:58 AM

I think it's possible. Red was found somewhere left of the mountain, the pokemon league near mt. Silver, and what's on the top is where the shinto ruins would be.

"I'm basically saying, if we believe that Mt. Silver is now part of the Indigo Plateau, that the Mt. Silver we explored in G/S/C can't be the ACTUAL Mt. Silver - meaning we've never gone through the ACTUAL Mt. Silver." - Hiroshi

http://img30.imageshack.us/i/theory2.jpg/
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2876/theory2.jpg


http://img30.imageshack.us/i/theory2.jpg/

Mitchman June 19th, 2009 3:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeartGoldnSoulSilver (Post 4762130)
I think it's possible. Red was found somewhere left of the mountain, the pokemon league was past mt Silver (or now part of it), and what's on the top is where the shinto ruins would be.

http ://img30.imageshack.us/i/theory2.jpg/

You basically hit the nail on the head. And to feelings Yaminokame and Hiroshi perfectly stated why its not related to shintoism and all. Its missing a key character and that makes your statement false. I doubt you even know Japanese unlike the people I mentioned so yeah.

billi1000 June 19th, 2009 5:05 AM

Hiroshi man thanx for pointing that out, i just watched the video of the shinto ruins and the music at the ruins seems similar to those at mount coronet, even the pillars infront of the entrance of the birth room seem similar to those on top of mount coronet, so i may conclude this has a similar mood to mount coronet, which basicly has a very similar event going on at its peak as well, even if other patches of snow in kanto or johto appear, it still would make the most sense that it is located on top of mount Silver.

yaminokame June 19th, 2009 7:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by >Feelings< (Post 4762080)
No, not at all.
The name "Shinto" is not a mix of "Shinou" and "Johto" or "Kantou", though that's a clever one you came up with, I must say...

The name is actually directly derived from one of the most followed Religion in Japan.
The word "Shinto" is translated to be "Way of the Gods".
So, the chances are that they will not change it while they translate it.
But if religion issues come up, then they might be forced to, but I don't want it to be changed...

I would just like to point this out there. It is a wrong assumption from the start to assume that a Japanese person would single out the religion Shinto when coming up with a name. Sure, when creating things for the game they may throw in different elements from their culture, but it does not make sense to single out Shintoism. It is an easy practice for us westerners to label ourselves a certain religion and stick with it, but that does not mean that the whole world has to be like us. Japan has a mix, and most people practice what we would consider more than one religion. Along with Shintoism in Japan, there still exists Buddhism, which is also practiced. That does not mean a Japanese person would say "I'm not Buddhist, I'm Shintoist" or vice versa. They mix and match different aspects of both. If a westerner were to ask "Which religion are you?" They are more inclined to tell you "I don't know" or "None" rather than single out one in particular. Going on top of this, though some of the ideas show Japanese culture, which we tend to see as religious (like the shrines) they are fully aware that different nations share these games, and wouldn't dare to single out any religion at one point, or go as far to name something after it. There really isn't enough evidence to support that Shinto(u) 【神道】 solely equals to Shinto 【シント】 :P

joehat June 19th, 2009 8:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billi1000 (Post 4761997)
red is most likely to be in mount silver like he was in the previous games, but i say they will keep him in the sam spot, and i dont thnik he will be involved in the areceus event, since this event isnt available for all the fans, and it would cause a fan disapointment if u had to activate this event to be able to battle red.

Edit: I thaught i d give a pic of both mount coronet and silver to show how similar they look exterior wise, so here it is:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2rfq5jl.jpg

mount coronet is the one on the left and mt.silver on the right, they both seem to hold something on the top, and does someone see something on mnt silver covered by a cloud, what could that thing be?


I definitely think the Shinto Ruins will be on top of Mt. Silver. The only evidence against that would be the cloud over the area at the base of Mt. Silver. I could see them covering up a special location..but if the Indigo Plateau is at the base of the mountain, I don't see any reason to cover that up.

I keep forgetting...isn't the Johto Pokemon League (Silver Conference in the anime) held at the base of Mt. Silver? So that wouldn't be the Indigo Plateau covered by clouds..I'm confused.

Åzurε June 19th, 2009 8:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billi1000 (Post 4762350)
Hiroshi man thanx for pointing that out, i just watched the video of the shinto ruins and the music at the ruins seems similar to those at mount coronet, even the pillars infront of the entrance of the birth room seem similar to those on top of mount coronet, so i may conclude this has a similar mood to mount coronet, which basicly has a very similar event going on at its peak as well, even if other patches of snow in kanto or johto appear, it still would make the most sense that it is located on top of mount Silver.

I didn't know there was a video. Could somebody please tell me where, or link to it or some such?
Edit: Nevermind. just checked out the other topic.
Now, to contribute a bit...

The "Johto League" Is in fact, Indigo Plateau. Johto is unique in that (aside from just being awesome) it doesn't have it's own e4. The Silver Conference is an Anime-only thing.

And, regardless of the reason for naming it "Shinto Ruins", the word is still shinto, so they'll likely change it. The only decent substitute I see right now is actually naming it "Way of the Gods", or Origin Hall, etc., because the Game Freaks seem to like things with origin in them nowadays.

manga_meijin2 June 19th, 2009 8:43 AM

This game is going to be GREAT! I love all the new additions and this one looks to be my favorite as of yet :)

HeartGoldnSoulSilver June 19th, 2009 8:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todoroki Is (Post 4762195)
You basically hit the nail on the head. And to feelings Yaminokame and Hiroshi perfectly stated why its not related to shintoism and all. Its missing a key character and that makes your statement false. I doubt you even know Japanese unlike the people I mentioned so yeah.

Anyways I hope these will be one of the the best in the series.

P.S. I think it's on the top on mt. Silver :X

Mana June 19th, 2009 9:02 AM

I think saying it must be on Mt Silver just because there is no is probably pushing it, I would like to see changing weather in HGSS so perhaps a previously unsnowy area may get a layer ;).

I agree its likely to be a new location (outside of the usual map) like in Fire Red with the islands for some legendarys?

I don't want another place that I can see but not touch XD no events for me :(.

yaminokame June 19th, 2009 9:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mOOG (Post 4762879)
And, regardless of the reason for naming it "Shinto Ruins", the word is still shinto, so they'll likely change it. The only decent substitute I see right now is actually naming it "Way of the Gods", or Origin Hall, etc., because the Game Freaks seem to like things with origin in them nowadays.

That doesn't even make sense... why on earth would they EVER change it from Shinto to "Way of the Gods" though this is just your idea of "what it could be," it would cause a hell-of-a-lot more problems than leaving it as Shinto... Sure, they may change it, but you don't know that yet, and what good is there in making up crap that they obviously aren't going to do... As I said earlier, (though I believe it was a different thread) Pokemon has already suffered enough on the religious front from the very beginning, they would NEVER do something that stupid... you're just going to have to face it, until the games come out in English, people are going to call it by the name it was given already, which is Shinto Ruins. When the English versions come out, everyone may revert over to the other, but for now, it's Shinto Ruins.

Artemis June 19th, 2009 9:19 AM

Shinto Ruins is the name given to it for now and that is why a major percentage of the fans are calling it so. However, if the name is altered in anyway, then we'd just have to wait to find out what that may be as it seems like a solid case at the moment. Though, when it is released in the English version, I wouldn't expect the name to stay as Shinto Ruins neither would I expect it to be changed to continue as "Way of the Gods," because that alone will cause controversy for the franchise. Now, I realized Hiroshi commented on the religion Catholic beings the major religion, it isn't. Christianity would fall under that place, and it is this basic group that might take offence us the use of such a thing, especially if it distributed to a younger age group. So, the name may be altered to something else for the English Version, however the Japanese release may keep the Shinto Ruins the same as we speak of it now, because it hasn't caused any problems thus for for the country. However, we'll see how things play out.

As far as the Pokémon League, it was situated at a location here, but with the new ruins because the Arceus event, I might expect something to be altered. I wouldn't say it is impossible, because it can very well happen for the game. If GameFreak sees a fitting position for the new area and makes it piece together well, then they might go for it. Nothing would major in the change besides a different area to travel to for the league. However, if the Shinto Ruins are located at the pin point top of Mt. Silver, then they can simply enlargen the area and keep the League not to far from its original spot or keep it the same as was before. It really depends on the situation how things play out really, and not to mention an addition to the map [if kanto is kept] is still needed to conclude the rest of most theories given.

billi1000 June 19th, 2009 9:51 AM

Nintendo defenitely knew what they were down when they covered up certain pieces of the map with clouds. This is the only thing that make what is on mount silver unclear . It is either the league or could be something entirely different. Shinto is simply a temporary name in my opponion , the same happened with many DDPt names before these games were released and the name will by all means change once these games hit America.

Kyledove June 19th, 2009 9:58 AM

You have to keep in mind that although all routes are shown on the maps, they don't add mountain routes. If you look at the sinnoh map with mount coronet, it never shows any routes on top of it, whilst in reality it had a whole bunch.

The same can be said for mount silver, just cos theres no routes drawn in the map (or things covered up with clouds) doesn't mean theres not more there...Mount silver is a pretty big place so you can be sure there's more to it than what's hidden (or not) under the clouds...

billi1000 June 19th, 2009 11:58 AM

there are several routes that dont appear on the map in addition to the ones not only on mount silver, but that might be on other obstacles as weel, and not to meansion the indoor routes and the way they may be expanded, we dont really know wat to expect as the clouds also cover up important spots on the map, and how about the yellow meadow behind the tin tower, i dont think that was just put there for no reason, so i expect huge route additions, and much more paths inside and outside mount silver, mnt silver is going to be like coronet from the inside and outside i guess , full of routes were u need rock climb and strength and other HMs to make your way to the top...

RockmanEXE June 19th, 2009 12:07 PM

Sinntoh Ruins would be an appropriate North Amercian name.

Since it's in the Johto region, and Arceus, Giratina, Dialga, and Palkia all originated from Sinnoh.

Artemis June 19th, 2009 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billi1000 (Post 4763355)
there are several routes that dont appear on the map in addition to the ones not only on mount silver, but that might be on other obstacles as weel, and not to meansion the indoor routes and the way they may be expanded, we dont really know wat to expect as the clouds also cover up important spots on the map, and how about the yellow meadow behind the tin tower, i dont think that was just put there for no reason, so i expect huge route additions, and much more paths inside and outside mount silver, mnt silver is going to be like coronet from the inside and outside i guess , full of routes were u need rock climb and strength and other HMs to make your way to the top...

There will be a lot of new twists and turns within the heavy covered areas. Mt. Silver alone will have many differences compared to the older version of it that we traveled in once. So, it will be something new, however it wouldn't change the fact that it is the same location as it was before. The same thing applied for the Pokémon League situated within the lower situation of Mt. Silver. I do agree though, if the Shinto Ruins are fixed up upon Mt. Silver, then there will be more levels to explore and the HMs will indeed be needed. This is why it is something like Mt. Coronet and connects the relation between the two.

However, the area on the map that is shuddered in orange air. That is only a reflection to represent the trees by Ecruteak City. It isn't nothing more than that as many have speculated and said before. The town is known for its orange look because of the trees that gives off the color, so adding this into the map's art only makes sense to do so.

Åzurε June 19th, 2009 3:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaminokame (Post 4762955)
That doesn't even make sense... why on earth would they EVER change it from Shinto to "Way of the Gods" though this is just your idea of "what it could be," it would cause a hell-of-a-lot more problems than leaving it as Shinto... Sure, they may change it, but you don't know that yet, and what good is there in making up crap that they obviously aren't going to do... As I said earlier, (though I believe it was a different thread) Pokemon has already suffered enough on the religious front from the very beginning, they would NEVER do something that stupid... you're just going to have to face it, until the games come out in English, people are going to call it by the name it was given already, which is Shinto Ruins. When the English versions come out, everyone may revert over to the other, but for now, it's Shinto Ruins.

*sigh* Ok. Yamino, I get that it'll stay Shinto Ruins till translation (I don't need to "just have to face it" ;)), but I was saying there's still decent alternatives, and I don't really see any controversy with calling it "Way of the Gods" anyway. Hell, SquEnix, The dudes doing scribblenauts, and others got away with far more of this "religious" content. It far exceeds Pokemon in controversy. I'm also aware the word pronounced Shinto here is a character off. Don't call it crap, Way of the Gods just sounds cool to me.

Simmer down, mkay?

yaminokame June 19th, 2009 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mOOG (Post 4763998)
*sigh* Ok. Yamino, I get that it'll stay Shinto Ruins till translation (I don't need to "just have to face it" ;)), but I was saying there's still decent alternatives, and I don't really see any controversy with calling it "Way of the Gods" anyway. Hell, SquEnix, The dudes doing scribblenauts, and others got away with far more of this "religious" content. It far exceeds Pokemon in controversy. I'm also aware the word pronounced Shinto here is a character off. Don't call it crap, Way of the Gods just sounds cool to me.

Simmer down, mkay?

You're the one b*tching about it, and to be honest, it's annoying. If Square Enix thinks that they can take the heat, then good for them. Pokemon went as far as to change the coloring for Jynx just because people thought it was too black. They get crap for a lot of things, and they actually do try to get away from it by trying to appeal to the different wants. Going around and saying stuff like "Who wants to know the translated name for the area? Surely they won't leave it as Shinto Ruins..." is quite annoying. That's nice if you think that, but do you really need to express that opinion? Everyone here is fully aware that the name will change once the English versions come out... If you are going to speculate on the English translation, then do so, but you can't talk for the rest of us, so cut out crap like saying "who cares" because you have no voice for the rest of us.

SDODC13 June 19th, 2009 8:51 PM

Though I'm not sure if this event is very befitting for Hg/Ss.... Maybe once we know more about it aka actual translations, it will make more sense to me. Again I know the unown and all but there were unown in solaceon too right?

viemortevolroc June 19th, 2009 9:05 PM

maybe theres a snow storm in johto when u visit the place,do any of yall think bout weather anomalies? or pracipitation? (yay i used a big word XD lol)
who knows,but its DEFINITELY NOT in mount silver,it may have snow but its not the ruins type cuz if it was theyd hav had it way back in g/s/c and the anime.
then again i could be wrong,maybe itll be like the southern island,navel rock,and that one island whos name i forget that has mew lol
id like that whole ticket thing again but instead of nintendo events,just in-game events or make nintendo events happen more than once

Artemis June 19th, 2009 9:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viemortevolroc (Post 4765075)
maybe theres a snow storm in johto when u visit the place,do any of yall think bout weather anomalies? or pracipitation? (yay i used a big word XD lol)
who knows,but its DEFINITELY NOT in mount silver,it may have snow but its not the ruins type cuz if it was theyd hav had it way back in g/s/c and the anime.
then again i could be wrong,maybe itll be like the southern island,navel rock,and that one island whos name i forget that has mew lol
id like that whole ticket thing again but instead of nintendo events,just in-game events or make nintendo events happen more than once

The word is precipitation by the way, with an 'e.' ^_^

However, the location of the ruins can very well be placed ontop of Mt. Silver as it gives a good relation to the tip of Mt. Coronet as so many have speculated on. Not to mention, the ice cap and the area of snow gives this idea away pretty clearly, because on the map for now, it is basically the only area shown with much snow. And, just because the ruins weren't there in the original GSC it wouldn't mean they cannot make any alternations to the remakes, because they can.

The extra memory and added storyline with these events make it fit in place. It'll also give the players extra area to travel in Mt. Silver than what was provided before. The new areas back this theory up as well, because just as they added in these and the Sevii Islands in FRLG they can extend the area of Mt. Silver once this event is activated within the game.

By the way, the games [besides Yellow] never really follow the anime, so even if it wasn't provided there, it can still be brought to the games. Not to forget, in the anime they may make a return to Kanto and these changes can be applied afterwards as well, just as it was done in the Battle Frontier arc of Kanto.

billi1000 June 19th, 2009 10:21 PM

I really don't think a weather condition will change the tiles on any map in the game as mostly many weather conditions are limited to a certain area like in DPPt, the town which had the marsh ( I no I'm bad at remembering) u can see puddles on the ground due to the raining so if there's snow on the ruins , it ll definitely be snowing full time there , and for the Shintoism I edited the first post giving an explanation that Hiroshi Sotomura pointed out why the name of the ruins is not derived from Shintoism to avoid relating the name to religion.

>Feelings< June 20th, 2009 4:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 4762313)
Last I checked, what was America's most followed religion? Catholicism? Given that so many names are changed by Nintendo of America, or realistically, "Americanised", do you honestly think if this had any relation to religion, that they wouldn't change the name?

I know that. That's why I said that it is most likely that it will be renamed if it actually turns out to have any relation to the religion itself. All I said was that, even if they'd surely remove it then, I'd still want the name to remain the same as my opinion. Read before you post.


Quote:

Originally Posted by yaminokame (Post 4762742)
I would just like to point this out there. It is a wrong assumption from the start to assume that a Japanese person would single out the religion Shinto when coming up with a name.There really isn't enough evidence to support that Shinto(u) 【神道】 solely equals to Shinto 【シント】 :P

First of all, you can't stop anyone from assuming anything. We're not saying we're sure about the matter.
Second, yes, I saw that potential mistake, but I only said that the name "Shinto" was taken, not a reference to the religion itself.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 4764905)
All these posts are still under the broken assumption that "Shintoism" is involved. I have to say, this is one silly direction the fanbase is taking; such a shame.

I don't remember anyone directly saying that Shintoism is "involved".
Well, for my part what I meant is only the name was taken from the religion - to mean the words "Way of the Gods", not that it is emphasizing on the religion itself.

billi1000 June 20th, 2009 7:21 AM

I dont think a game can be used to synthesize on a religion because, first, that religious group will open a war with the producer of the game, second, i dont think any previous pokemon game had anything that related to religion, so why to do it now, besides, there are many names you can come up with that can be close to religious names u wat i think, i think that Shinto is like a combination name for Johto and Sinnoh like Hiroshi stated earlier because it makes perfect sense when you look at the similarities between the Shinto ruins which are situated in Johto, and the Sinnoh story background, we can also note the relations between mnt coronet and mnt Silver, so this name shouldnt cause any fan reaction concerning its relation to religion (because it ISNT), and i say it again, i edited the first post with the explanation given by Hiroshi Sotomura whay the name of the ruins is not related to Shitoism to avoid religion clashing here.


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