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Flash, Defog?
TM 70 Flash and HM05 Defog? Will flash become HM05 again?
I doubt it due to compatibilty reasons however R/S/E had Dive and FR/LG didnt but its different this time due to flash being a TM so if it were traded and Flash was a HM on HG/SS it wldnt work. Also will they involve rock climb in anyway? |
The TM/HM sets stay the same throughout a generation, so expect the set TM/HM set as DPP.
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I don't think that there'll be any changes to the DPPt moveset. The Dive HM wasn't obtainable in Fr/Lg, but the HM is still compatible with Fr/Lg. It just doesn't have any use, that's all. But to swap one HM with another wouldn't be a good idea.
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As far as I can remember, the only place you needed flash in G/S was Mt. Mortar and Dark Cave and maybe Rock Tunnel in Kanto, but I'm not sure.
If turning Flash into an HM is a problem, we can see what happens if they turn those caves foggy instead of pitch-black. I'm more concerned with Whirlpool, however... |
There wont be any changes to the HM line-up from GSC to HGSS, but the DPPt moveset will still be the same. meaning you can use defog in battle, but not as an HM
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I think flash will not be making a return but whirlpool might lol i do not know just a feeling im having
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i hope theres no defog, i hated that hm
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Luckily, HMs cant be traded unless they were hacked onto a pokemon so it shouldnt be an issue to switch them out. HM05 will probably become Wirlpool for Johto Based games and be Defog in Sinnoh based games.
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I think it will be TM Flash in HG/SS like the past Nintendo DS Pokemon Games.
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I was thinking about this a few weeks ago but my thought train was about Whirlpool. IT seems like it was just a HM for one generation then forgotten. Also Whirlpool was needed for some parts of the game like getting Lugia hence the name of where you find Lugia, Whirl Islands. Now only a small handful learn Whirlpool so either those handful are used or no way to get to Whirl Islands. Still we may see the return of Whirlpool as an HM. Or maybe at least a move tutor move.
That is another option, Whirlpool could become a Move Tutor move like most of the old TMs from the days of Red/Blue that aren't TMs anymore. |
That brings up an interesting point. However, I think they will leave it mostly the same as GSC. They will likely have Whirlpool and will probably not have Rock Climb. Since Flash is now a TM, they will most likely just make most of the main caves--ones you need to go into in order to complete the game--foggy, rather than dark. As for additional caves that don't have anything to do with the storyline--such as Silver Cave--dark, so TM70 can have some use (other than just lowering the opponent's accuracy).
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Hmmm. That is kinda trippy... Maybe they won't allow TM trades? I really think they will try and keep it the same as original.
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Well the problem with Flash can be solved easily. Just make TM Flash available early in the game. It isn't that hard and for good measure have it buy able in the GOldenrod Department Store. It isn't that hard to do. May sound a bit random but it is possible.
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They probably won't do that, because field moves that are that important must be HMs. It's just a must, for so many reasons.
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Well, it's possible that they make Flash a buyable TM so that if you need it ingame you can have access to it (much like the original GSC did with Headbutt). As for Whirlpool, they could just make that a Tutor and allow virtually every Water Pokemon to learn it, which would make it pretty easy to get it on your team. Or just remove it completely... but that could have some effect on the storyline.
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To be honest, I see the HMs being more closely related to what was brought in from DPPt. There may be a little changes to match that of the originals, but I don't see HM Flash coming back. The reason being is because if it is reverted back from a TM to HM, then that will bring up issues in compatability with DPPt. As well as it being such a simple TM to obtain. Ever since RSE, TM Flash has been buyable in the main Department stores, so like said, I would think they will make it an easy way to get it for when needed. It can work just like how Dig is useable in caves as well, so it shouldn't come to be useless.
As for Whirlpool, I see it possible for it returning as an HM to replace something such as Rock Climb. It'll be a nice touch from the originals and will keep the basic idea of the Whirl Islands actually having whirlpools surrounding the islands. I wouldn't expect every water Pokémon to know it, but basically more than enough may have compatability with it as there are a lot of water type Pokémon to capture. As for removing the whirlpools, that won't make much sense at all. It won't give a purpose to the name of Lugia's location and neither would it contribute to the game in any story matter like before. This conversion of HMs wouldn't be hard to accomplish though as HMs are solid items. They can neither be traded over unless hacked, and there are also only one set of each in the game. |
Kinda offtopic... but how did they handle pokemon that had the move flash that were migrated from FRLG/RSE? Were those pokemon's flash turned into an easily replacable move? Or did you have to go to the move deleter to remove it. That same principle could be used in HGSS
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For whirlpool can't they just make a TM93
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Hell for all we know they might just make whirlpool HM09. As said before they wouldnt replace the pre existing ones so unlike removing one like they did with Fr/Lg they could just add one. Flash though will will be a tm.
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How do you know that d/p/pt has no info regarding whirlpool? |
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DPPt does have Whirlpool into their coding as a move and as a Move Tutor I believe. However, if it were to have data on it as a TM, then instead of it being available through tutors, they could have simply made it easily obtainable in the game already as a TM. So, for it to be a TM here, it more than likely would have been known as a TM in DPPt a long time ago since Diamond and Peal were released. So, with this being said DPPt probably doesn't have data on a 93rd TM. Not to mention, we've basically got 100 moves easily found, so any more can pretty much wait for the new generation in my opinion. Though, with Pokémon anything is possible so I won't deny it, but still the thought of it happening is kind of slim when there are other methods of using it to cope with compatability. |
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True, it is possible to just change the HMs in there. I don't think they'd bother for Defog since Flash is a TM already (though they might... even though Flash actually wasn't used too much in GSC. In fact I never bothered putting Flash on my Pokemon because everything was navigable without it), but it'd be pretty easy to replace Rock Climb with it since GSC doesn't use that. I think that's the more likely choice now that I think more about it, since HM's can't be transferred.
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i realy hope they take defog and flash out of the game. i personally think those two moves are completly pointless
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If they make Flash as TM then Rock Smash can be a HM. Game needs more to Smash and more to Flash! You can use Flash after you beat Falkner and why? Because there's one item in Dark Cave (and that can be obtained by just walking in the dark) near Violet City? (You can't get deeper than that at the beginning...) So, Flash is useless in HeartGold and SoulSilver if they don't make more caves to Flash. Rock Smash is needed if you want catch Shuckle (you can have it by one man also..). And I think you don't need Rock Smash in the caves when playing Gold and Silver. And last thing Defog. It's horrible HM and I really don't want it to be in HeartGold and SoulSilver because that ruins whole game! Gold is best pokémon game at the moment and this one could be even better, so leave Defog to D/P/P! We don't need new HMs to remake.
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Blue Nocturnes view:
Keep rock smash as HM06 and give it a more prominent role, some obvious examples for use include ice cave (maybe even a block of ice for it), dark cave, you get the idea. Keep defog as HM05, make all (or most) of the flash caves foggy instead (and maybe have a route or two foggy to make it more useful) and make flash available in the department store. Make whirlpool HM08, rock climb isn't needed (although it was an OK battle move) Give HM07 waterfall more use, in all the games its very neglected. |
You have the best ideas so far. ;D
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If they add new HMs after the national dex, it will probably be rock climb, the rest of the HMs will be the exact same as GSC. In FR/LG, the HMs were the same, until you got to the island, where you got 2 more. but i guarantee that they wont have defog as an hm in HGSS
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I think Flash and Whirlpool will be HMs again. I mean, it's not like you can trade HMs from game to game, as it would say this item cannot be held. Probably in HG/SS, you will be banned from trading TM's to others or recieving them via trade.
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Tbh, I don't really want HM's to have an extremely prominent role. I found it annoying to have to stick an otherwise-useless move on my Pokemon just to get through some cave or route or something. I think the amount of use they get now is fine, maybe even make it a bit less than it is. And I don't think they'll utilize Rock Climb. The didn't utilize Dive in FrLg, so there's no reason to, since there's no rock walls in Johto.
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They better bring flash and whirlpool back. I absolutely HATE Defog. Rock smash should go back to being the move I always used Shuckle for on the beaches of Olivine, and not an HM, as well. Nostalgia for the win
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I think There will be only 7 sets of HMs, 92 sets of TMs.
And instead of Defog I think it'll be replaced with Whirlpool, while the move Flash will remain as TM70. |
It is very obvious to assume that Rock Smash will remain a TM. The reason why I say this is because they cannot put it as a TM like it was before in Gold and Silver because in DPPt a Rock Smash TM was never formed, but instead it was placed as a HM like in RSE and FRLG. So, thinking Rock Smash may come as a TM probably won't happen, that I can tell.
Also, it is safe to assume that Flash won't be brought back as an HM either, because in DPPt it was placed as a TM. So, because of compatability and no doubt they shall allow trade with TMs being held, Flash shall more than likely remain as a TM for the remakes. However, this does leave two empty places for HMs that will need to take use once more. So, my though for this is, Defog will be kept as an HM for the remakes to replace the areas where the caves were placed as dark. Actually, even the dark caves before can be kept without fog, such as Dark Cave, so it can stay true to its name. However, other areas can be replaced with fog over darkness like before. Then, there is Rock Climb, which I too doubt won't be brought in as an HM. So, with this being said it can easily be replaced with the original Whirlpool HM from Gold and Silver. This wouldn't cause much problem at all because of how HMs cannot be traded or held as an item. The only thing I see here is that there will be three water type HMs [Surf, Waterfall, and Whirlpool]. So, by thinking this, it makes me wonder whether or not Whirlpool will become an HM or not, because I'm sure Waterfall will be kept as an HM like it was since RSE. My set up for this though for the HMs might be like this [not in order] - Cut - Surf - Rock Smash - Strength - Defog - Whirlpool/Waterfall - Fly - Whirlpool/Waterfall Hmm, it seems as though I cannot think of anything else for the eight slot other than it being another water type HM. However, this could actually make a bit of sense seeing as they've added extra water areas within the game unlike before. So, we'll see. |
They might as well just add whirlpool in while keeping Flash a TM and leave Defog to DPPT. Seems to me as the best way to go considering Flash and Defog is a waste of a move anyways.
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Here's what I would do:
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If they keep HM Rock Climb within the game then fine, as I'm sure there can be places it can be used such as Mt. Silver and Tohjo Falls. Not to mention, the extended and mountainous areas in the Kanto region as well. However, they shouldn't remove the whirlpools around the islands because it is like removing a purpose for that location. Not to mention, when you think from another fan's perspective you would realize not only because of purpose but also because of nostalgia would they want it to be kept and not replaced. |
defog -> flash
rock smash->whirlpool |
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Well, there could still be a way to keep whirlpools around the Islands and insert Rock Climb as the way to get there. Whirlpools could just be like immovable objects and you could Surf around them, but then to get to the actual Whirl Island, you could be forced to climb up a rock wall once you reach land in order to get to the caves and such in the Island.
I'm not saying I'd want it that way, but it's a possibility. I'd rather they just left it with the same HM's as the old GSC, though. |
Well, whirlpool will stay as a HM, like someone may have already said that it would be pointless having a whirl islands if there where no whirlpools. But in a way they would have to keep rock climb or defog as a hm, so when if a pokemon is traded to hg/ss from dppt it isn't a incompatible move. In which case they dont have whirlpool or rock climb as HM07, maybe dive as that would fit in with lugias storyline
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It would be nice if Flash and Defog weren't HMs, but it's unlikely (and, if not those two, some other weaker move). I usually only travel with 4/5 Pokémon anyway, keeping the other two spots open for HM Slaves. :P I think it's just part of the challenge - incorporating solutions to the environmental challenges in your team's move, at the cost of power (with the notable exception of Surf).
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Nevertheless, I wouldn't necessarily say that Rock Climb or Defog will be a TM in the remakes though. The idea of this happening will mess up the Cross Compatability with DPPt. So, rather it may be utilized through another Move Tutor, like Dive from DPPt, to keep the move available to players if needed. Also, like said Flash will stay as a TM. |
Flash as a TM doesn't really make anything all that different, you'll just be able to access Dark Cave sooner and not by much anyways.
When it comes to Whirlpool, the only place you need it is in the Dragon's Den. So, all they have to do is change how you get through there. |
Well, the only reason to not change it would be to stay true (or true-er I guess) to the originals :P. Since HM's aren't tradeable and all the moves' coding already exists in DPPt, there aren't any incompatability issues no matter which way they choose, and like I said before, they could still change around the land and keep the story the same.
But why would the developers want to change so much around? They could just keep the HM's all the same (or similar if they wanted to add Rock Smash as an HM, switch Defog for Flash/delete it, etc, but not change too much and still keep Whirlpool) since there's no compatibility issues and it might be more work for them to try and use DPPt's HM's and still make the storyline fit and stuff. It'd probably just be easier to leave Whirlpool as an HM and leave the other HM's at the same spot in the storyline as the original GSC. |
The use of HMs and TMs have no importance to the storyline of the game, that is what thing a lot of people keep referring to. The use of HMs are to raise the difficulty of the game as an obstacle the player must go through. For example, when adding the thick fog within DPPt it was a bit harder than going through the darkness of a cave; a basic obstacle a player must get through during travel not to get through the storyline of the game.
However, you cannot add in or switch any of the TMs around because of Cross Compatibility with HeartGold, SoulSilver and DPPt. What we have in DPPt as far as TMs will remain the same for the remakes. However, like said so many times HMs aren't tradable and can be fixed to suit the game. It isn't hard at all to add in extra rocks to smash into one area. Actually, as far as we know, for at least Mt. Silver and the relation it may have to Arceus, this may be an extra place of importance to take use of certain HMs. So, adding in newer landscape and raising the importance of an HM and certain TMs can be utilized, but it wouldn't be put in a way where it doesn't match that of DPPt. |
I don't use either of them so, It's the same for me, but I think we will have DPPt moves.
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It's not really that hard, just keep the original HM's from GSC, flash cant be traded because it would be a HM, it would mean that rock climb and defog would only be obtainable through a move tutor or through DPPt but to be honest who really gives a dam about them anyway, its really not as complicated as some of you are making it.
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They'll introduce whirlpool back but maybe have rockclimb as a TM for the sake of it.Defog could be put into use if they fog up the whirlpool islands,but i see the original G/S HM's all coming back ..
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For one, and I don't know how many times this has been stated before but HM Flash will not make a return, as DPPt has already made it TM for the games. Seeing as the remakes and DPPt are all compatible, this only reasons why Flash won't be brought back as an HM. Also, the idea of making Rock Climb a TM won't work because again, when it comes to trading in DPPt Rock Climb is known as an HM. So, if Rock Climb happens to not be brought in as an HM for the remakes, then it'll be available through a Move Tutor just like how Dive was made in DPPt. Also, Whirlpool, this can easily be made an HM. There will be no trading so cross compatibility will not be a problem. However, Defog can easily replace HM Flash's position as it won't be difficult to replace the black cave areas to be filled with fog. Yes, it may be a useless move to teach a Pokémon, but it is used for the difficulty of obstacles within the game. As for the other HMs, it isn't hard to make Rock Smash more of a vital move than before and it isn't hard to accomplish the other HM's uses either. However, as it goes for Defog and Flash, it is simple enough to keep Flash a TM like in DPPt and still have little use of it; while all the less, it is still possible to replace the dark areas and fill it for fog to take use of the HM Defog. Nothing is ever complicated unless you break it down and look at all your options and what you know can and can't work. |
i fail to see why you quoted me, you basically agreed with what i said but then added that rock climb could be made a TM when it does not need to be. Flash is the only HM that may be changed in the remakes from the originals.
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However, others do try to make the idea of it very complex when it really isn't when broken down; something I specified earlier before. |
Oh right, fair enough. I agree that people are making things too complex and complicated.
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You guys have been talking about flash and defog,not to mention rockclimb too but what about WHIRLPOOL
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for all you know there could be 10 hms :/ or even 9 while one gym could allow you to use 2 hms or after fighting the league can you use a hm?
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I can 99.9% guarantee you that:
- Whirlpool will be in as a new HM - Rock Climb, Defog and Dive will not be included in HG/SS - Flash will go back to an HM. |
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As for Defog, that will more than likely replace Flash's spot as being an HM. Seeing it is more of a field move rather than something to be used in battle, it won't be hard to replace darkness with a layer of thick fog. As for the idea on Rock Climb, it may happen if Game Freak simply adds in a few areas of higher levels. However, because HMs are not tradable items and DPPt have no coding for Whirlpool being a TM, I can see Rock Climb being replaced by HM Whirlpool for its need in the game. Other than this, I see no really basic changes as Hiroshi has gotten the basic idea laid down. |
Whirlpool has to be in the game and has to be an HM because not that many Pokemon can actually learn the move or (I think its an TM and if not I'm wrong my bad) and you can't get that many Pokemon at the beginning to get that move. Whrilpool Islands needs the move whirlpool, thats how I see it
:t354:TG |
This is what I think:
Whirlpool will replace the defog hm and Rock smash will replace the Rockclimb Hm. flash is already a tm so it will stay like that and defog won't be in the game. |
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