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-   -   4th Gen Flash, Defog? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=184318)

Ellie June 28th, 2009 9:52 PM

True, it is possible to just change the HMs in there. I don't think they'd bother for Defog since Flash is a TM already (though they might... even though Flash actually wasn't used too much in GSC. In fact I never bothered putting Flash on my Pokemon because everything was navigable without it), but it'd be pretty easy to replace Rock Climb with it since GSC doesn't use that. I think that's the more likely choice now that I think more about it, since HM's can't be transferred.

AuraAshley June 28th, 2009 10:48 PM

i realy hope they take defog and flash out of the game. i personally think those two moves are completly pointless

Late June 29th, 2009 2:56 AM

If they make Flash as TM then Rock Smash can be a HM. Game needs more to Smash and more to Flash! You can use Flash after you beat Falkner and why? Because there's one item in Dark Cave (and that can be obtained by just walking in the dark) near Violet City? (You can't get deeper than that at the beginning...) So, Flash is useless in HeartGold and SoulSilver if they don't make more caves to Flash. Rock Smash is needed if you want catch Shuckle (you can have it by one man also..). And I think you don't need Rock Smash in the caves when playing Gold and Silver. And last thing Defog. It's horrible HM and I really don't want it to be in HeartGold and SoulSilver because that ruins whole game! Gold is best pokémon game at the moment and this one could be even better, so leave Defog to D/P/P! We don't need new HMs to remake.

Blue Nocturne June 29th, 2009 6:55 AM

Blue Nocturnes view:
Keep rock smash as HM06 and give it a more prominent role, some obvious examples for use include ice cave (maybe even a block of ice for it), dark cave, you get the idea.
Keep defog as HM05, make all (or most) of the flash caves foggy instead (and maybe have a route or two foggy to make it more useful) and make flash available in the department store.
Make whirlpool HM08, rock climb isn't needed (although it was an OK battle move)
Give HM07 waterfall more use, in all the games its very neglected.

Ineffable~ June 29th, 2009 7:06 AM

You have the best ideas so far. ;D

jbs829 June 29th, 2009 9:57 AM

If they add new HMs after the national dex, it will probably be rock climb, the rest of the HMs will be the exact same as GSC. In FR/LG, the HMs were the same, until you got to the island, where you got 2 more. but i guarantee that they wont have defog as an hm in HGSS

Meadow June 29th, 2009 10:09 AM

I think Flash and Whirlpool will be HMs again. I mean, it's not like you can trade HMs from game to game, as it would say this item cannot be held. Probably in HG/SS, you will be banned from trading TM's to others or recieving them via trade.

Ellie June 29th, 2009 10:30 AM

Tbh, I don't really want HM's to have an extremely prominent role. I found it annoying to have to stick an otherwise-useless move on my Pokemon just to get through some cave or route or something. I think the amount of use they get now is fine, maybe even make it a bit less than it is. And I don't think they'll utilize Rock Climb. The didn't utilize Dive in FrLg, so there's no reason to, since there's no rock walls in Johto.

dotKarma June 29th, 2009 3:01 PM

They better bring flash and whirlpool back. I absolutely HATE Defog. Rock smash should go back to being the move I always used Shuckle for on the beaches of Olivine, and not an HM, as well. Nostalgia for the win

Precious Tears June 29th, 2009 3:03 PM

I think There will be only 7 sets of HMs, 92 sets of TMs.
And instead of Defog I think it'll be replaced with Whirlpool,
while the move Flash will remain as TM70.

Guy June 29th, 2009 4:17 PM

It is very obvious to assume that Rock Smash will remain a TM. The reason why I say this is because they cannot put it as a TM like it was before in Gold and Silver because in DPPt a Rock Smash TM was never formed, but instead it was placed as a HM like in RSE and FRLG. So, thinking Rock Smash may come as a TM probably won't happen, that I can tell.

Also, it is safe to assume that Flash won't be brought back as an HM either, because in DPPt it was placed as a TM. So, because of compatability and no doubt they shall allow trade with TMs being held, Flash shall more than likely remain as a TM for the remakes. However, this does leave two empty places for HMs that will need to take use once more. So, my though for this is, Defog will be kept as an HM for the remakes to replace the areas where the caves were placed as dark. Actually, even the dark caves before can be kept without fog, such as Dark Cave, so it can stay true to its name. However, other areas can be replaced with fog over darkness like before.

Then, there is Rock Climb, which I too doubt won't be brought in as an HM. So, with this being said it can easily be replaced with the original Whirlpool HM from Gold and Silver. This wouldn't cause much problem at all because of how HMs cannot be traded or held as an item. The only thing I see here is that there will be three water type HMs [Surf, Waterfall, and Whirlpool]. So, by thinking this, it makes me wonder whether or not Whirlpool will become an HM or not, because I'm sure Waterfall will be kept as an HM like it was since RSE.

My set up for this though for the HMs might be like this [not in order]

- Cut
- Surf
- Rock Smash
- Strength
- Defog
- Whirlpool/Waterfall
- Fly
- Whirlpool/Waterfall

Hmm, it seems as though I cannot think of anything else for the eight slot other than it being another water type HM. However, this could actually make a bit of sense seeing as they've added extra water areas within the game unlike before. So, we'll see.

Ayselipera June 29th, 2009 4:28 PM

They might as well just add whirlpool in while keeping Flash a TM and leave Defog to DPPT. Seems to me as the best way to go considering Flash and Defog is a waste of a move anyways.

Roaring Moon June 29th, 2009 4:28 PM

Here's what I would do:
  • Keep the TM and HM lists the same as they are in D\P\Pt.
  • The whirlpools would be removed and replaced with Rock Climb-able walls.
  • The Elder in Sprout Tower would give you the Defog HM.
  • When you defeat Team Rocket in Mahogany Town, Lance would give you the Rock Climb HM.
  • The Zephyr Badge would allow you to use Defog outside of battle.
  • The Mineral Badge would allow you to use Rock Smash outside of battle.
  • The Glacier Badge would allow you to use Rock Climb outside of battle.
  • The Flash TM can be purchasable in Goldenrod City.

Guy June 29th, 2009 4:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luigi-San (Post 4804272)
Here's what I would do:
  • Keep the TM and HM lists the same as they are in D\P\Pt.
  • The whirlpools would be removed and replaced with Rock Climb-able walls.
  • The Elder in Sprout Tower would give you the Defog HM.
  • When you defeat Team Rocket in Mahogany Town, Lance would give you the Rock Climb HM.
  • The Zephyr Badge would allow you to use Defog outside of battle.
  • The Mineral Badge would allow you to use Rock Smash outside of battle.
  • The Glacier Badge would allow you to use Rock Climb outside of battle.
  • The Flash TM can be purchasable in Goldenrod City.

Your set up is nice, however removing the whirlpools only to be replaced by layers of rocks to be climbed wouldn't fit into the location at all. Lugia's area is found in the Whirl Islands, and because of this, removing the key feature that gives it its name wouldn't make any sense to the area at all.

If they keep HM Rock Climb within the game then fine, as I'm sure there can be places it can be used such as Mt. Silver and Tohjo Falls. Not to mention, the extended and mountainous areas in the Kanto region as well. However, they shouldn't remove the whirlpools around the islands because it is like removing a purpose for that location. Not to mention, when you think from another fan's perspective you would realize not only because of purpose but also because of nostalgia would they want it to be kept and not replaced.

i love garchomp June 29th, 2009 6:00 PM

defog -> flash
rock smash->whirlpool

Mobile Tsk June 29th, 2009 6:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luigi-San (Post 4804272)
Here's what I would do:
  • Keep the TM and HM lists the same as they are in D\P\Pt.
  • The whirlpools would be removed and replaced with Rock Climb-able walls.
  • The Elder in Sprout Tower would give you the Defog HM.
  • When you defeat Team Rocket in Mahogany Town, Lance would give you the Rock Climb HM.
  • The Zephyr Badge would allow you to use Defog outside of battle.
  • The Mineral Badge would allow you to use Rock Smash outside of battle.
  • The Glacier Badge would allow you to use Rock Climb outside of battle.
  • The Flash TM can be purchasable in Goldenrod City.

I've got a better idea: keep all of the pointless HMs like Rock Climb and Defog out, keep the whirlpools, and don't mess with Lugia.

Ellie June 29th, 2009 7:42 PM

Well, there could still be a way to keep whirlpools around the Islands and insert Rock Climb as the way to get there. Whirlpools could just be like immovable objects and you could Surf around them, but then to get to the actual Whirl Island, you could be forced to climb up a rock wall once you reach land in order to get to the caves and such in the Island.

I'm not saying I'd want it that way, but it's a possibility. I'd rather they just left it with the same HM's as the old GSC, though.

Tudj June 30th, 2009 2:28 AM

Well, whirlpool will stay as a HM, like someone may have already said that it would be pointless having a whirl islands if there where no whirlpools. But in a way they would have to keep rock climb or defog as a hm, so when if a pokemon is traded to hg/ss from dppt it isn't a incompatible move. In which case they dont have whirlpool or rock climb as HM07, maybe dive as that would fit in with lugias storyline

Citrinin June 30th, 2009 2:34 AM

It would be nice if Flash and Defog weren't HMs, but it's unlikely (and, if not those two, some other weaker move). I usually only travel with 4/5 Pokémon anyway, keeping the other two spots open for HM Slaves. :P I think it's just part of the challenge - incorporating solutions to the environmental challenges in your team's move, at the cost of power (with the notable exception of Surf).

Guy June 30th, 2009 5:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 25cricket25 (Post 4805885)
Well, whirlpool will stay as a HM, like someone may have already said that it would be pointless having a whirl islands if there where no whirlpools. But in a way they would have to keep rock climb or defog as a tm, so when if a pokemon is traded to hg/ss from dppt it isn't a random move. In which case they dont have whirlppol or rock climb as HM07, maybe dive as that would fit in with lugias storyline

I would only hope for Whirlpool to come back as an HM to keep the whole concept of using it through the Whirl Islands. However, if not and still kept as Move Tutor available, then it can still work but not everyone will have the capabilities of doing it if they do not fulfill the requirements that each Move Tutor may have.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't necessarily say that Rock Climb or Defog will be a TM in the remakes though. The idea of this happening will mess up the Cross Compatability with DPPt. So, rather it may be utilized through another Move Tutor, like Dive from DPPt, to keep the move available to players if needed. Also, like said Flash will stay as a TM.

Swift! June 30th, 2009 5:58 AM

Flash as a TM doesn't really make anything all that different, you'll just be able to access Dark Cave sooner and not by much anyways.

When it comes to Whirlpool, the only place you need it is in the Dragon's Den. So, all they have to do is change how you get through there.

Ellie June 30th, 2009 9:19 AM

Well, the only reason to not change it would be to stay true (or true-er I guess) to the originals :P. Since HM's aren't tradeable and all the moves' coding already exists in DPPt, there aren't any incompatability issues no matter which way they choose, and like I said before, they could still change around the land and keep the story the same.

But why would the developers want to change so much around? They could just keep the HM's all the same (or similar if they wanted to add Rock Smash as an HM, switch Defog for Flash/delete it, etc, but not change too much and still keep Whirlpool) since there's no compatibility issues and it might be more work for them to try and use DPPt's HM's and still make the storyline fit and stuff. It'd probably just be easier to leave Whirlpool as an HM and leave the other HM's at the same spot in the storyline as the original GSC.

Guy June 30th, 2009 10:17 AM

The use of HMs and TMs have no importance to the storyline of the game, that is what thing a lot of people keep referring to. The use of HMs are to raise the difficulty of the game as an obstacle the player must go through. For example, when adding the thick fog within DPPt it was a bit harder than going through the darkness of a cave; a basic obstacle a player must get through during travel not to get through the storyline of the game.

However, you cannot add in or switch any of the TMs around because of Cross Compatibility with HeartGold, SoulSilver and DPPt. What we have in DPPt as far as TMs will remain the same for the remakes. However, like said so many times HMs aren't tradable and can be fixed to suit the game. It isn't hard at all to add in extra rocks to smash into one area. Actually, as far as we know, for at least Mt. Silver and the relation it may have to Arceus, this may be an extra place of importance to take use of certain HMs. So, adding in newer landscape and raising the importance of an HM and certain TMs can be utilized, but it wouldn't be put in a way where it doesn't match that of DPPt.

TheAliveTrain June 30th, 2009 10:25 AM

I don't use either of them so, It's the same for me, but I think we will have DPPt moves.

zirico June 30th, 2009 11:00 AM

It's not really that hard, just keep the original HM's from GSC, flash cant be traded because it would be a HM, it would mean that rock climb and defog would only be obtainable through a move tutor or through DPPt but to be honest who really gives a dam about them anyway, its really not as complicated as some of you are making it.


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