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Suspect Discussion Thread [Stage 3-3] - Have fun in Banland, Garchomp (or not =/)
Suspect Discussion Thread [Stage 3-3]
Introduction This has been slightly revamped for the new Stage 3-3 test, where Manaphy and Latias are the last remaining suspects. Garchomp has been voted UBER by a simple majority two consecutive times and will remain Uber as a result. The Suspects http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpffa/dpffa380.png Latias Typing: Dragon / Psychic Ability: Levitate Base Stats: HP: 80 Atk: 80 Def: 90 Spd: 110 SAtk: 110 SDef: 130 Stage 3-1 Voting Result Uber: 10 votes (12% of votes cast) OU: 76 votes (88% of votes cast) Stage 3-2 Voting Result Uber: 27 votes (21% of votes cast) OU: 100 votes (79% of votes cast) http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfa/dpmfa490.png Manaphy Typing: Water Ability: Hydration Base Stats: HP: 100 Atk: 100 Def: 100 Spd: 100 SAtk: 100 SDef: 100 Stage 3-1 Voting Result Uber: 33 votes (42% of votes cast) OU: 46 votes (58% of votes cast) Stage 3-2 Voting Result Uber: 38 votes (31% of votes cast) OU: 83 votes (69% of votes cast) The Characteristics Quote:
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Manaphy: 58% for OU.
Oh lawd Manaphy may be OU now. I smell Rain Dance teams on the rise. |
Noo....... Garchomp not coming to OU? It seems that it won't :(
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Latias: Strong but not unbeatable, I think everyone agrees that with its Pursuit weakness and the abundance of things like CBtar, CBscizor and specially defensive Metagross all carrying this move even without Latias considered means it doesn't really smash the OU metagame that much. But to underestimate Latias would be stupid as it is still considered by myself to be one of the best pokemon in OU (mence/luke/latias/gyara/heatan). On the other hand if Latios were to become OU this wouldn't be used except for its defencive sets.
Decision: OU Garchomp: I wasn't playing when this was previously OU so I don't think my opinion will be great here. Garchomp is definitely not unbeatable so I wouldn't support it staying in ubers where it can't be a standout, however sand veil hax can really change the result of a game. Decision: OU, maybe Manaphy: The reason I'm posting here is not to put a short comment in on Garchomp or Latias and both in my opinion would be very fine in OU, but I definitely don't want Manaphy coming down to spike the use of Rain Dance teams. I think everyone will speak with me when I say that they are incredibly hard to deal with with Swift Swim Kingdra running around. The one saving grace players playing against RD teams experience is the eventual end of the rain and must act fast before the rain is re run. I'm not saying that it should be ubers, just that it should not be combined with Kingdra so that people can just spam RD. It will in fact be another suspect, Latias, that is the only surefire way to beat it in the OU metagame, and that will probably raise the usage of Latias to the point where she may be ubers again, which will leave few counters/checks for Manaphy. Just an opinion, as an already avid hater of RD teams, I do not want them getting any stronger. Decision: Ubers Just some thoughts. |
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Latias : - "If you think this is uber im sorry your team frikking sucks? stop whining" lol. OU 100%.
Garchomp : - Contrary to what people think, i did have about 8-10 matches on suspect the other day just enough to gaugh if what people said was true and won all but one, i currently think its ou honestly, it may be the way i built my teams but yeah (I used stall, which people said was no longer viable on this ladder, yeah..no. Well they say it about every tier with a few powerful sweepers/suspect but i always win so lol @ theorymon. ^_^). I'd LOVE to see this back basically because then we actually have a scarfer who isnt Pursuit bait (apart from the like only other good scarfer, Jirachi). Garchomp was such a good scarfer because even if it got set up on you could come back in next turn and be faster than them anyway still lol. Yache/Haban Berry sets, is exactly its own downfall now deciding on the berries it wants to use, it cant have both people. I mean how centralizing is adding a steel to absorb the Outrages and something with Ice Beam/Ice move and something to revenge kill really...OH WAIT WE HAVE TO DO ALL OF THESE FOR MENCE, so no dont bring this up. Sandveil, yes MISSING SUCKS BUT STOP WHINING honestly, couldnt you miss on a Rock Polish/SD Baton Pass Gliscor who passes to a powerful sweeper ? Then that same Gliscor (same amount of weaks as chomp btw, 2) fits the support characteristics right ? :/ Yes while that was overexagerated that IS most people logic so dont call me out on this lol. For those of you who use CB Scizor @ Bullet Punch, all you have to do is get this to ~50% and then Bullet Punch it, sorry but how is taking away 50% of a pokemons health even hard ? ~_~ SD Garchomp remids me of SD Gallade in UU, who again was meant to "make stall unviable" yes i got to #2 in a Gallade metagame with heavy stall go figure, TL;DR stop whining and actually PREPARE for it. Ive seen one CB chomp and you beat it like you do any other powerful choice users, prediction (if you use HO and dont predict then that is your own stupid fault for using a dumb play style) just like CB Mence who's choice set has no counters. Chomp shouldnt be a a bigger problem for offense than it is for stall for obv reasons. Really if you want the truth i havent had to adapt my team to deal with chomp at all, nor did i overspecialize anything at all. :/ Yeah chomp is THE best sweeper but its not unbeatable and you can adapt to it. Current opinion : OU. Manaphy : - Although i had to put T-Bolt on my Blissey to break its subs, god this thing is so weak lol. Toxic Spikes also destroyed it, phazers destroy it etc. I did actually use this guy on my team though as a bulky sub minder because he fits in well on stall being able to counter ape pretty much 100% and is awesome with the residual damage T-Spikes/Spikes/SR grants. Very cute and not overcentralizing. Rain Dance also isnt broken because it only lasts 8 turns and its pretty eas-ish to revenge kill. Current opinion is that this is OU atm, though i hate Rain Dance in general so w.e lol. EDIT : LOL this sounded like i was psuedo trolling haha. EDIT 2 : Anti is gonna kick my butt now. T_T_T_T_T_T_T_T_T |
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Secondly, I believe not many pokemon will be able to straight out overwhelm Manaphy, which makes it pretty hard to counter. Thirdly, in the rain Kingdra is beastly. Coupled with Manaphy, RD teams would be even harder to beat, meaning more people would spam them. As an already avid hater of RD teams, I PERSONALLY would love it to stay in ubers. I was just saying it should stay in ubers because because rain dance teams would be very difficult to beat with Manaphy. |
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I got my rights to vote =P
I'll be voting them all OU, I will not go in to Latias and it’s kinda obvious where she belongs, uh? Garchomp: aye, this is interesting, there's good enough reasons for it being uber/OU from both sides, I based my vote the way I've seen it in my battles, not once it's been able to sweep past my team without the odd miss with sand veil, that's only happened like every fifteen battles or so of the outcome putting me at a disadvantage. I agree with D_A on his statement on Garchomp. Manaphy: quite underwhelming, the only set I find effective was the crophy, even that becomes set up bait for kingdra, gyarados, etc... |
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Manaphy is bulky but still not difficult to counter and overwhelm, to use your term. The offensive sets never made any kind of impact against my team on the suspect ladder, and it wasn't really made with Manaphy in mind, lol. There is no combination characteristic. Kingdra can still be supported by any other Pokemon with Rain. It has absolutely no relevance to this discussion since it's just as terrifying without Manaphy around. Actually, Manaphy can take Kingdra's hits pretty well haha. Manaphy actually was rarely used in the Rain when I battled (mostly because people were busy spamming Tyranitar + Garchomp), but Rain doesn't save Manaphy from getting clobbered by faster Electric-types and the few powerful attackers that can outspeed it and inflict a lot of damage. Latias is a major thorn in Manaphy's side, as is Jolteon and Scarf Magnezone. What Manaphy does to the effectiveness of Rain Dance teams simply doesn't matter unless Manaphy itself is the broken member, whether it be by the support, offensive, or defensive characteristic. ------------- Yesterday, I cast my vote on Smogon. So I guess I'll post my opinions on the suspects and how I voted, obviously. Latias - OU This was an easy decision, though it actually seemed even better in the suspect environment. As a dominant force in that metagame (which the vote is based on), it was very good, but none of the three characteristics really stood out when I looked briefly at the potential of Latias being Uber. That's why I had no doubts voting Latias OU. Manaphy - OU I'm surprised that this is so controversial here. Manaphy rarely had a significant impact on any of my battles, and it was on almost every team I faced. I found that the more bulky Manaphy was, the more difficult is was to take down. Obviously, the only characteristic it can really fit is the offensive characteristic. However, Manaphy hardly had a real impact, let alone a chance to sweep significant portions of opponents' teams with little effort. The high usage of Latias and max Speed Jolly Garchomp/ScarfChomp really made it difficult for Manaphy to make its presence felt in a significant fashion. Based on this test, there was no way I was going to vote Manaphy Uber. The bulky sets can be terrifying, but terrifying is not the same thing as broken. That was the gist of D_A's argument with regards to Garchomp, only Manaphy isn't even as threatening as that. Manaphy did not prove itself to be broken, so I voted it OU. Garchomp - Abstain This was by far the most difficult decision. I decided to abstain because it did not seem to meet any of the characteristics--though it was very close with offense because of its Choice Band and Swords Dance sets. It was good enough that I simply wasn't sure if I could determine whether or not Garchomp was OU or Uber accurately. As I mentioned, I was leaning OU, but I think a lot of that had to do with past positions from a completely different metagame and time period. I became convinced that any decision I made would be based on things that probably don't matter in the big picture, and since I still couldn't really make up my mind, I decided to Abstain. I'm very interested to see how the vote turns out though! |
Latias: *Stares at D_A =\* Although this thing really kicks me around, it is OU material. It does have many resistances, but at the same time, it has a few common weaknesses, one being named Pursuit.
Garchomp: I never used it, but by all means, I'd love to see it back in the OU metagame. Latias can still keep it in check (Bar the Haban Berry), and Scizor can put a nice dent in it or kill weakened ones. Manaphy: Viable in OU without a doubt; it may be bulky with all 100 stats, but OU does not favor rain, which is what made Manaphy more useful in Ubers. There's Hippowdon and Tyranitar running about, which destroys any opportunity to set up rain. |
There's so many things I've heard I'm not gonna bother quoting them all.
This is mainly for Manaphy. Toxic Spikes can't do anything to Manaphy because Hydration will cure it's poison status. If it were to become OU Rain Dance teams would go on the rise and the RainRest Manaphy would Tail Glow up and sweep through most teams. I never battled Suspect on Smogon or PC's server (except maybe once or twice) but I have on TeamUber's and I used Manaphy and I was always able to get a Tail Glow in without difficulty and many times able to get in a second. Rain boosted +2 Surfs can even hit bulky waters for a lot of damage so much that Grass Knot isn't even needed so Energy Ball will take care of other Manaphy. It's Ice Beam at +2 will surely OHKO Mence, DNite, and Chomp even Yache varieties. Heck, Rain boosted Surf will even KO Chomp. Latias: Well she's a Special Defensive beast with Calm Mind in her arsenal. I'd say she's one of the best OU Special tanks there is. But perhaps the rise is usage of Steel-types lessens her threat level. Garchomp: Ah, it seems the debate on Chomp will go on for centuries. I hear it has no real counters. So what! This is a game played with skill and wit. I've won almost every battle where I've seen Chomp on someone's team. Weavile easily outspeeds it, and both the Choice Band and Swords Dance sets can OHKO Garchomp WITH YACHE BERRY using Ice Punch. Cloyster can switch in and Icicle Spear it to death. Sand Veil doesn't really stop most moves. It's say it only worked 10-25 of the time. Pretty much any Pokemon with decent Attack/Special Attack and stat boosts or STAB can take it out. Even bulky waters can take a hit or two and hit back with strong boosted Water STAB. |
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Also, Manaphy isn't always going to have Rain up. Just because it has an ability that takes advantage of the rain doesn't mean that Toxic Spikes and status in general are no longer relevant to the discussion. Its Tail Glow + 3 attacks Life Orb attacker set isn't saved from Toxic Spikes. All three characteristics mention common battle conditions, and Rain is not one of them, even on many of the teams Manaphy is on. Your argument is basically that it can KO a lot of stuff when you take out the useless theorymon prediction of the rise of Rain Dance teams. I mean, 598 SAtk and a Life Orb boost and I would hope that it can KO a lot of things. However, Manaphy has issues with common Pokemon like Latias and Jolteon. It really has trouble with anything faster that can hit it hard. Manaphy can't be deemed Uber because of an irrational fear of Rain Dance teams or because of random and baseless predictions of what the OU metagame would be like with it. We have to base it on the characteristics. It isn't enough of an offensive force to be Uber from my experiences. Quote:
I am mighty curious how Manaphy being able to take out a large portion of the OU tier and Garchomp having the same capabilities makes one of them Uber and one of them OU. It seems like you're setting a double standard. And no, Rain Dance/Hydration really doesn't stop it from being essentially Garchomp with worse offensive typing and better defensive typing. Yes, Weavile outspeeds Garchomp, but Jolteon outspeeds Manaphy (and it also doesn't suck, which is a plus). I can draw lots of parallels if you really want me to... |
I see where you're coming from Anti. I've been going on about RainRest Manaphy but come to think of it, RainRest is the only thing Manaphy has going for it.
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63984
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Also http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64254 Dont see how testing clauses will help anything but w/e, i mean cant we test stuff like Deoxys-D or something ? Prepare for more illogical noobs/idiots trying to defend the OHKO/Evasion clause if it gets tested, i can see it now "BUT HAZE BEETZ DUBLE TEEM" [/Misa] lol. :D Discuss lol |
The results are not surprising. I knew Garchomp was going to be close, but it's sad we can't see how he'd fare in the now much more evolved OU metagame.
How anyone voted Latias uber is beyond me, that thing is far from broken. And Manaphy well checked in OU by Jolteon, Latias, T-bolt Bliss ect. Still, it should be pretty interesting :O And I hope they leave the tiers untouched, lest we all get smashed by elfs DD / Double team Kingdra ;___; |
Well these results make me happy at least. :3 As I expected too.
Wish Garchomp would have come down honestly, as I've always wanted to actually use him. ;o; Thanks for the update DA. Is the smogon ban list updated with Manaphy yet? Cuz I want to start laddering dood. |
I've got to say, I'm not too keen on Garchomp, but that's more of a personal preference. I honestly think, considering just how close the vote was, that there should some sort of revote, or another test in the near future, because it's simply to close to say there's a decisive choice.
I really need to get back into laddering, though. So I can talk from experience about the suspects. |
Just read the stage 3-2 thread, apparently they are considering extending the test so that Manaphy and Latias are tested without Garchomp. =/
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tl;dr: Garchomp retest = bad idea/waste of time for no reason Quote:
Manaphy and Latias have been voted OU by crushing margins (Latias especially). It's really the same thing as above--what exactly is a retest going to accomplish? I guess it's okay to ensure that they aren't broken since it will be the OU ladder + Manaphy, but this process is really sluggish lol. The only REAL way we can find out if a suspect is Uber is if it is let loose on the standard ladder. It took a long time for Garchomp and Deoxys-S to get banned, but that ultimately gave us a result that in at least one case was obviously completely justified. I'm not enthusiastic about a Stage 3-3 and I don't think it's necessary or even the best option, but whatever happens I hope it gives us a good result and doesn't take forever. |
Okay maybe I was exaggerating a bit on Rain teams dominating the OU metagame. But you have to admit Manaphy will be a neat new tool to people who like weather teams.
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Since this fits in with the suspects.
Does anyone know a 100%/reliable Manaphy check ? As in fits the following ; - Is a good check or counter to ALL its sets (yes that includes WacanPhy) - Isn't easy to wear down (Pursuit bait scarf rotom :/) - Is actually reliable (no resters please) - Doesn't suck (I.e Scarf Abomasnow or some junk). Im struggling to come up with something that is decent. Only thing that i can think of is my S.Def Wish Roar Jolt. Which really isnt the best of things even though its done ok lol |
Jolteon obviously. I'd say Tyranitar and Abomasnow definetly do shut it down due to Sand Stream and Snow Warning.
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