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-   -   LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transexual) anyone? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=208854)

.little monster February 24th, 2010 2:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5577399)
Born with no gender at all? How do people like that develop during puberty?

They don't, they need constant surgery to grow in that area and they are forced to take hormones.

Fun Fact: 1/20000 people are born with red hair. 1/20000 people are born intersexed.

:D

Kon~ February 24th, 2010 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .little monster (Post 5577454)
They don't, they need constant surgery to grow in that area and they are forced to take hormones.

Fun Fact: 1/20000 people are born with red hair. 1/20000 people are born intersexed.

:D

Oh-ho. I didn't know that. And yet I know someone who would find that information extremely entertaining. *pops off to facebook*

Sydian February 24th, 2010 2:54 PM

Quote:

Fun Fact: 1/20000 people are born with red hair. 1/20000 people are born intersexed.
-has red hair and...the latter?- ;D

I'm straight. I'm whatever gender you want me to be, though. I might be male, I might be female, but I am straight, whatever you see me as. As for the gay rights thing, I'm not supportive, and I'm not against. It's just there. If it doesn't concern me, then I take it as not being my place to stick opinions in. Well, social matters like that, I mean. I'll stick my nose in conversations as much as I please.

Spikey-Eared Pichu February 24th, 2010 4:02 PM

My opinion on gay rights is that I want it to happen. But, I don't think the government can play any part in it. We can pass a law saying that buisnesses and communities must allow LGBTs to live there safetly/be hired, but we can't pass a law saying that anyone has to accept us for who we are. That's a person's choice. Same as with peoples' views on people of different races, yes we must allow them the same jobs and oppurtunites that we have, but it doesn't mean we have to like them (I'm Cuban, and I have no grudges against any race). In the end, it's a matter of what the people decide to accept. I believe even attempting to pass a law for gay acceptance socially would hurt more than it'd help. As far as a law should go, gives LGBTs the following:

-equal oppurtunites academically and in the work enviornment.
-right to be married.

I'm only 15, gay, and I've not researched what else LGBTs aren't given equality in, but the above is what I do know.

FreakyLocz14 February 24th, 2010 5:48 PM

As far as homosexual rights go, in California (where I reside) they already have achieved their goal. In this Golden State they have more rights than heterosexuals, not less.

kevcrash February 24th, 2010 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5577878)
As far as homosexual rights go, in California (where I reside) they already have achieved their goal. In this Golden State they have more rights than heterosexuals, not less.


That's kind of impossible =/

Harmonie February 24th, 2010 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5577878)
As far as homosexual rights go, in California (where I reside) they already have achieved their goal. In this Golden State they have more rights than heterosexuals, not less.

Right. That's why gay marriage is banned.

Weatherman, Kiyoshi February 24th, 2010 7:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5577878)
As far as homosexual rights go, in California (where I reside) they already have achieved their goal. In this Golden State they have more rights than heterosexuals, not less.

Quote:

The status of same-sex marriage in California is unique among the fifty U.S. states, in that the state formerly granted marriage licenses to same-sex couples but no longer does so. The period of granting such licenses began on June 16, 2008, due to a ruling by the state supreme court based on an equal protection argument and ended November 5, 2008, due to the passage of Proposition 8
Well, someone is late on the gay marriage train, aren't they?

Harmonie February 24th, 2010 7:57 PM

The fact that they actually banned gay marriage after legalizing it brings quite the facepalm from me.

Actually the fact that it isn't naturally legalized in all of the United States brings a facepalm, but not quite as much as Proposition 8. How it has actually survived baffles me greatly.

Feign February 24th, 2010 8:16 PM

Interesting... We have a transgender ad here now...

Yeah... some governments will never seize to amaze me...

FreakyLocz14 February 24th, 2010 8:21 PM

Here in Califonia we do have gay marriage just under a different name. Domestic Partnership grants all state level rights of marriage to same sex couples that marriage. Do appreciate that in states like Iowa and other states that allow gay marriage those couples still only get state level rights not federal rights. In this state homosexuals are allowed to supress a persons 1st Amendment rights under so-called Hate Crime laws. Under these laws a person can be sentenced to a harsher sentence because of their belief system.

Feign February 24th, 2010 8:29 PM

It makes you wonder why America (in general) doesn't want equal rights for everyone... They might preport to be a democracy, but that doesn't seem like to be one.

Esper February 24th, 2010 8:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5578006)
Here in Califonia we do have gay marriage just under a different name. Domestic Partnership grants all state level rights of marriage to same sex couples that marriage. Do appreciate that in states like Iowa and other states that allow gay marriage those couples still only get state level rights not federal rights. In this state homosexuals are allowed to supress a persons 1st Amendment rights under so-called Hate Crime laws. Under these laws a person can be sentenced to a harsher sentence because of their belief system.

If your belief system says that it's OK to discriminate against some group of people for no other reason than they're what they are then that part of your belief system is wrong. It just is.

Hate crimes are just saying that you did two things wrong with one act: 1) you attacked someone and 2) you discriminated against someone. That's fair if you ask me.

Harmonie February 24th, 2010 8:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feign (Post 5578018)
It makes you wonder why America (in general) doesn't want equal rights for everyone... They might preport to be a democracy, but that doesn't seem like to be one.

More like a Theocracy. >_> lol

I wonder what happened to the Separation Of Church and State?

Feign February 24th, 2010 9:08 PM

Well obviously the fundamentalists will brainwash themselves saying that the forefathers believed in Christianity and such :s

Or however they go about defending their conservatism anyway.

Shiny February 24th, 2010 9:13 PM

Out of my group of friends, there are three bi guys and myself. Only one is openly bi, the rest ain't so we're always wandering off to talk about boys <3

Harmonie February 24th, 2010 9:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feign (Post 5578075)
Well obviously the fundamentalists will brainwash themselves saying that the forefathers believed in Christianity and such :s

Or however they go about defending their conservatism anyway.

It's so stupid. The forefathers were Deists, IIRC. Whatever they were they were they founded the country strongly on the separation of church and state.

Now that the fundamentalists have been successful in banning gay marriage in several states, what are they going to force upon us next?

Even conservatives should be for the separation of church and state. It brings freedom of religion.

Feign February 24th, 2010 9:36 PM

Makes sense, then again, there are quite a few generalizations about conservatives to begin with (some of which seemed to be present in that political compass questionnaire.

Soon probably they'll want to control your thoughts all together.

FreakyLocz14 February 24th, 2010 9:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feign (Post 5578018)
It makes you wonder why America (in general) doesn't want equal rights for everyone... They might preport to be a democracy, but that doesn't seem like to be one.

The Prop 8 case actually proves that California is a democracy. Remember that a democracy is a government ruled by the people. With Prop 8 we have the common people unhappy with the governments decision so they overrule it. that's very democratic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf (Post 5578025)
If your belief system says that it's OK to discriminate against some group of people for no other reason than they're what they are then that part of your belief system is wrong. It just is.

Hate crimes are just saying that you did two things wrong with one act: 1) you attacked someone and 2) you discriminated against someone. That's fair if you ask me.

The US Supreme Court would have to disagree with you. The Court has ruled that hate speech is protected by the 1st Amendment. You can hate anyone you want for what ever reason you want and you can tell them you hate them and why. It's when you commit a crime based on that hate that is currently being debated.

Harmonie February 24th, 2010 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5578147)
The Prop 8 case actually proves that California is a democracy. Remember that a democracy is a government ruled by the people. With Prop 8 we have the common people unhappy with the governments decision so they overrule it. that's very democratic.

Yes, but that really shouldn't have been voted on in the first place.

Quote:

The US Supreme Court would have to disagree with you. The Court has ruled that hate speech is protected by the 1st Amendment. You can hate anyone you want for what ever reason you want and you can tell them you hate them and why. It's when you commit a crime based on that hate that is currently being debated.
Why is it even being debated? >_> Shouldn't it be common sense to make it illegal. Or are LGBT people something less valuable than straight gender binary people?

Esper February 24th, 2010 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5578147)
The Prop 8 case actually proves that California is a democracy. Remember that a democracy is a government ruled by the people. With Prop 8 we have the common people unhappy with the governments decision so they overrule it. that's very democratic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eпvy (Post 5578178)
Yes, but that really shouldn't have been voted on in the first place.

It really shouldn't have been. It wasn't very democratic with groups like the Mormon church getting way too involved and all the fear-mongering that went on.

And "the common people" weren't exactly all unhappy. If I recall, the vote was something like 52%/48%. Big changes should need more than a simple majority vote, not that this should have ever been up for a vote. There are basic rights that shouldn't be up for such easy changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5578147)
The US Supreme Court would have to disagree with you. The Court has ruled that hate speech is protected by the 1st Amendment. You can hate anyone you want for what ever reason you want and you can tell them you hate them and why. It's when you commit a crime based on that hate that is currently being debated.

Of course it's legal, but it's still wrong. Hateful, discriminating people are a scourge on society and the sooner they change their ways the better.

And committing a crime based on hate was what I was talking about. If someone attacks another person, let's say it's for being gay, they're not just hurting society in a general way (which is all they would be if they attacked a random person), but they're also physically trying to stop gays specifically from enjoying the same rights as everyone else, ie., trying to make them second class citizens, which is worse than a random attack.

FreakyLocz14 February 24th, 2010 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eпvy (Post 5578178)
Yes, but that really shouldn't have been voted on in the first place.



Why is it even being debated? >_> Shouldn't it be common sense to make it illegal. Or are LGBT people something less valuable than straight gender binary people?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf (Post 5578196)
It really shouldn't have been. It wasn't very democratic with groups like the Mormon church getting way too involved and all the fear-mongering that went on.

And "the common people" weren't exactly all unhappy. If I recall, the vote was something like 52%/48%. Big changes should need more than a simple majority vote, not that this should have ever been up for a vote. There are basic rights that shouldn't be up for such easy changes.


Of course it's legal, but it's still wrong. Hateful, discriminating people are a scourge on society and the sooner they change their ways the better.

And committing a crime based on hate was what I was talking about. If someone attacks another person, let's say it's for being gay, they're not just hurting society in a general way (which is all they would be if they attacked a random person), but they're also physically trying to stop gays specifically from enjoying the same rights as everyone else, ie., trying to make them second class citizens, which is worse than a random attack.

Our friend I quoted in my last post claimed that California isn't democratic I was just stating that was wrong. Whether you agree with Prop 8 or not (I don't agree with it) or even if you think average citizens shouldn't be able to pass laws is a whole other issue.

On the note of campaign contributions, the US Supreme Court ruled earlier this year that limiting political contributions by organizations (including the Mormon or any other church) is unconstitutional. The majority opinion said that corporations and individuals alike have a constitutional right to voice their opinions by participated in the electoral process and that by limiting contributions, the government is opressing that organizations' 1st Amendment right to voice its political opinion.

Now regarding ballot initiatives and Prop 8. First, in order to prove that same-sex marriage is a fundamental right, you would have to prove that marriage in general is a fundamental right. Homosexuals aren't the only group that are barred from marriage (take the aforementioned Mormons and their polygamy for example). By that point of view, bans on polygamy are unconstitutional because they deny certain group the freedom to practice their religion and deny them the basic right of marriage. Many argue that marriage isn't a right but rather a privelege the government grants you in order to advance a compelling interest they have.

If we begin saying that certain issues shouldn't be allowed on the ballot then we might as well do away with the initiative process altogether. If we did that any party who was simply bitter they lost an election could but restrictions on the initiative process to the point that it loses it's very democratic ideal.

PokemonLeagueChamp February 25th, 2010 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5578006)
Here in Califonia we do have gay marriage just under a different name. Domestic Partnership grants all state level rights of marriage to same sex couples that marriage. Do appreciate that in states like Iowa and other states that allow gay marriage those couples still only get state level rights not federal rights. In this state homosexuals are allowed to supress a persons 1st Amendment rights under so-called Hate Crime laws. Under these laws a person can be sentenced to a harsher sentence because of their belief system.

Important part emboldened.
If you believe that to be good, then you don't stand for equality. No, I am not encouraging straights to go beat the living **** out of LGBTs, or shoot them, but as was said before, laws can be passed about giving LGBTs equal rights, but nobody can be forced into acceptance of homosexuality if they don't want to be. Essentially, the fact that Californian LGBTs can have a straight person(or pretty much anyone who says something they don't like)locked up just for, I suppose calling them that "f" word, is frightening, at least to me. For one thing, it would most definitely give reason for straights to hate gays(assuming they didn't have a valid or bs reason beforehand), and it would also open the floodgates to where the 1st Amendment would be destroyed altogether, and there would be minority rule.
That is, if such a policy was implemented nation-wide. I'm not saying minorities shouldn't be held equal to everyone else, but they are the minority. They can't be given all power and freedoms just for the sake of that accursed political correctness.

Bottom line: Do you want to be accepted ever? Forcing people to accept you won't work, unless you take away all their rights. But then who'll be the hypocrites? Just consider that.

kevcrash February 25th, 2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5578212)
Our friend I quoted in my last post claimed that California isn't democratic I was just stating that was wrong. Whether you agree with Prop 8 or not (I don't agree with it) or even if you think average citizens shouldn't be able to pass laws is a whole other issue.

On the note of campaign contributions, the US Supreme Court ruled earlier this year that limiting political contributions by organizations (including the Mormon or any other church) is unconstitutional. The majority opinion said that corporations and individuals alike have a constitutional right to voice their opinions by participated in the electoral process and that by limiting contributions, the government is opressing that organizations' 1st Amendment right to voice its political opinion.

Now regarding ballot initiatives and Prop 8. First, in order to prove that same-sex marriage is a fundamental right, you would have to prove that marriage in general is a fundamental right. Homosexuals aren't the only group that are barred from marriage (take the aforementioned Mormons and their polygamy for example). By that point of view, bans on polygamy are unconstitutional because they deny certain group the freedom to practice their religion and deny them the basic right of marriage. Many argue that marriage isn't a right but rather a privelege the government grants you in order to advance a compelling interest they have.

If we begin saying that certain issues shouldn't be allowed on the ballot then we might as well do away with the initiative process altogether. If we did that any party who was simply bitter they lost an election could but restrictions on the initiative process to the point that it loses it's very democratic ideal.

Which brings me back to what you said earlier about hetero's having more rights than straights? You've just contradicted yourself, congratulations.

Esper February 25th, 2010 1:32 PM

FreakyLocz14, the Supreme Court (which, by the way is a very non-democratic institution) made a big mistake and initiatives that try to take away people's rights should not be allowed. Other kinds are fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5579144)
Important part emboldened.
If you believe that to be good, then you don't stand for equality. No, I am not encouraging straights to go beat the living **** out of LGBTs, or shoot them, but as was said before, laws can be passed about giving LGBTs equal rights, but nobody can be forced into acceptance of homosexuality if they don't want to be. Essentially, the fact that Californian LGBTs can have a straight person(or pretty much anyone who says something they don't like)locked up just for, I suppose calling them that "f" word, is frightening, at least to me. For one thing, it would most definitely give reason for straights to hate gays(assuming they didn't have a valid or bs reason beforehand), and it would also open the floodgates to where the 1st Amendment would be destroyed altogether, and there would be minority rule.
That is, if such a policy was implemented nation-wide. I'm not saying minorities shouldn't be held equal to everyone else, but they are the minority. They can't be given all power and freedoms just for the sake of that accursed political correctness.

Bottom line: Do you want to be accepted ever? Forcing people to accept you won't work, unless you take away all their rights. But then who'll be the hypocrites? Just consider that.

Wow. Just wow.

Is this the kind of misinformation that gets spread around? That doesn't happen. It can't happen. There are anti-discrimination laws, but they're the kind that say you can't fire someone just because they're queer. That sort of thing. No one gets put in jail for shouting out slurs.


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