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CONGRATS! US HEALTHCARE REFORM PASSES!
Yay <3
This wasn't about Democrat vs Republican, this was about the health of American citizens. Anyone else ecstatic? |
Canadian here; what exactly do Americans "get" now?
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Clearly America will be a socialist, fascist, and communist nation under ObamaCare.
In case you can't tell, sarcasm is being used :/ |
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It's government health care like us. ;)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul Lovely how all republicans were against it. Clearly they would only like to see the rich survive. |
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I'm not understanding how America can be such a great nation, yet we can't just do what other countries are doing... Or in fact, go to even better solutions. However, all the old farts waving their US flags around and praising such geniuses like Sarah Palin think things shouldn't change and that our obviously flawed healthcare plans are A-Okay. |
Eh, 55% of America was opposed to it, myself included. It won't matter to me much though: I already planned on being poor when I'm older.
I'm not gonna rant here though. That's what facebook is for. ;) Besides, I don't want to involve myself in a place where healthcare is thought to only hurt the wealthy. We needed change, no denying that. Too many people dying, poor economy, etc. This is definitely NOT what I had in mind though. EDIT: I guess I am glad that taxes won't go to convenient abortions, though. That's one plus. |
Not like any of you will actually read up on what you argue about. |
Woo! This'll have some definite pros for some of my family members.
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AND DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO SAY REPUBLICANS ARE OPPOSED TO REFORM. IT'S JUST THIS PIECE OF CRAP BILL WE'RE OPPOSED TO. |
I'm stunned. I didn't think it would actually pass.
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Oh darn, I just had to say it :[ |
Speaking as a generally conservative-leaning American, I'm highly suspicious of the long term benefits this bill will supposedly have for average Americans. This bill mainly goes after insurance companies, and in doing so avoids the problem of why health costs are so high.
As for you Canadians and such out there, you may want to consider that America's population is roughly 10 times the size of Canada's. It's much more complicated than it sounds to try and fit America into the same mold as Canada and Europe. Attempting to sustain a universal health care system in the United States could prove economically ruinous (which hurts the poor and working class citizens more than it does the rich) if the underlying problems of the costs of health care aren't addressed. I believe these costs can be fixed by de-obfuscating the way patients pay for their medical services, thus encouraging competition and market principles. Government intervention in the economy isn't necessarily good or bad. What matters is whether the government's actions encourage competition and other healthy economic practices. I pray I'm wrong, though, as this clearly isn't the direction in which we are moving. I hope the Democrats are right about this one, because if they're not, then things are going to get really lousy for the poor/middle class Americans in a decade or two, possibly much worse than they are now. I don't care about the Republican party, they can go off and dissolve for all I care. What matters to me is the American people, and I sincerely do not think that this bill will be good for them in the long run. The rich will be fine whatever happens, they've got money and assets to cushion themselves. It's the rest of us that I'm concerned about. Nice that you're all so happy. Hope it lasts. |
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It's also great to see America starting to become a better country. |
To be honest, I didn't expect this to be passed at all. With so much opposition coming from the Republicans, the chances were very slim. I'm just as surprised as many are.
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My uncle was just in the hospital and he was denied coverage by three insurance companies because he is unhealthy and had a preexisting condition and the companies would have had to pay for his bills, which were costly. So now he has to teach himself to walk again, since insurance wouldn't pay for his physical therapy for six weeks. If "ObamaCare" (The American taxpayers) wants to pay for his bills, then thanks. Appreciate it. I'm sure he does too, since it'll help him walk again, but he's certainly not complaining and he's doing well on his own. I know I'd love to help him, but my family can barely afford our own bills as it is, since we aren't rich like those evil Republicans!
My favorite part of the bill: "Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services" And I'll say one thing to the people claiming how Republicans are evil and hate the poor. Some of your own, fellow Democrats voted no for the bill, so...why aren't you calling them evil and poor haters? I just find it funny that it's only the Republicans that are evil and not these Democrats, along with the other 55% of America that opposed the bill. But whatever. Ignore the facts that more than just Republicans opposed the bill and continue to say only they are evil. That's easier than accepting that 55% of people just didn't like it. :) |
This bill is a shame but thankfully it is nothing like the Canadian system.
The bigegst difference is there still is not socialiazed health plan, thank God. The good: Bans insurers from denying people for pre-existing conditons or dropping people at will The bad: Forces Americans who do not want or cannot afford private insurance to purchase it (need to be reviewed by US Supreme Court imo), might cover elective abortions |
Something had to be done, but I frankly think it wasn't enough change. For the insurers, they should have been broken up in a way that was similar to the breakup of Bell Telephone in the 1980s, except it would be more focused on keeping one company from insuring more than 49% of any given state instead of having regional subdivisions of a company. That's the big thing I had issues with, considering how much the insurers spent per Congressman lobbying against this bill.
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I like the preexisting condition change, but did anybody look at how they say they're paying for it?
Medicare Payroll tax on investment income -- Starting in 2012, the Medicare Payroll Tax will be expanded to include unearned income. That will be a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for families making more than $250,000 per year ($200,000 for individuals). So... we're taxing successful investors and their investments? The people who create small businesses, which employ a good third or more of the US workforce? And the administration says they're supporting small business. Interesting... Excise Tax -- Beginning in 2018, insurance companies will pay a 40 percent excise tax on so-called "Cadillac" high-end insurance plans worth over $27,500 for families ($10,200 for individuals). Dental and vision plans are exempt and will not be counted in the total cost of a family's plan. So this is taxing the companies that support the insurance? Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services. Wth? Why put a 10% tax on something unprohibited like this? It just kinda seems to come out of thin air. Once it's applied, what percentage of people do you think will stop going? In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people. Or face a $695 fine. You have four years to get in a position where you can buy this health care, or you get fined an extra 700 dollars a year. Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances. So, if even a single worker gets subsidies, you're paying an extra 2k per year for all of them if you decide not to give health care. That'll get them to provide it, I guess. I just want to try and state the plans to pay for it in plain English, and it seems... well, a bit taxing. Not to mention the state Medicare is in already... |
obama's just a bad president, i'm sorry.
remember when he was campaigning and there was so much hope in his eyes (and speeches)? he promised so much, including promoting bipartisanship, helping the economy, and reforming health care. so far he hasn't kept any of his promises |
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A comapny with 50 employees is not large at all. This bill will be detrimental to small busnisses. Sure they say there are subsidies but there will always be some people/companies who barely miss the cut-off income marks to qualify for these subsidies. |
As much as I hate this bill, I'm celebrating Democracy right now. I'm a Libertarian, so I didn't see this bill as a Democrat/Republican thing, I see this as many people see it: a chance to change a very broken system. Sure, it's definitely not in my direction (actually, it's VERY far from it), but I'm glad that on issues like these people actually try to figure out what our government's up to.
Eh, this is very bittersweet. I just hope not too much damage is caused by this. |
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The Supreme Court could strike down parts of the bill like the mandates. Even better if the bill doesn't fund abortions. |
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Too late. I'm glad y'all are happy, but...Instead of taking the opportunity to blindly bash Republicans and complain about how we still don't have universal health care, maybe you should actually read the link Chibi posted and try to understand what this bill means in the long run. Because trust me, it's not just *poof* 30 million Americans are now covered with no drawbacks. We'll be paying for this for ages. One trillion dollars is a huge amount of money, and sooner or later, the middle class is going to be feeling the heat in the form of those wonderful things called taxes. Ironic how a bill that's supposed to support the middle/lower classes may actually come back to bite them in the arse in the long run, no? Please, please, before I die from some these horribly idealistic and naive posts. Try to understand the bill before passing judgement. I don't doubt that many of you will still be 100% in favor of the reform, but at least know that it's not as perfect as it may seem =/ |
Put the link in that quote so people can see it on the second page too D:<
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I wonder what would happen if the government suddenly rellocated a good majority of military spending to health care and educate... oh shi...
The only thing I don't like about Canada's system is how fragile it is. That is to say, all our good doctors were moving south where the money is. No offense to you guys and all, but I hope also with this bill some Canadian doctors will stay in Canada, and benefit our ailing system as well, that is to say, if they feel they need to stay, or are concerned about salary, though it doesn't sound like that would change... XD Maybe we can make it as a symbiotic relationship? XD |
Not to be too mean, but Canada has itself to blame for its doctors leaving. If it didn't have a socialized system, they wouldn't be leaving.
Socialized medicine gives insurance companies less incentive to invest in newer technologies. They would go for what is cheaper so they can conform to the government's strict standards. Which includes paying doctors less. Why do you think most jobs are going overseas? That being said I don't think this bill will help Canadians significantly. American doctors will probably still be paid much more on average than their Canadian counterparts. |
Yeah, what I thought pretty much.
I remember my old sociology prof talking about public medical care, and how it could be fixed and such. Though that was a while back :3 (I should find the notes sometime). In the end though, it seems the insurance companies just want a profit... |
College professors tend to be liberals so I wouldn't trust one without filtering for bias.
And of course insurance companies want to make a profit. Why does anyone start a business? To make money off of it. The profit motive is what puts the US at the top of the world in the quality of healthcare. The best care and the best technologies go to people who can afford it. In countries with socialized systems everyone gets the same mediocre standard of care. |
I'm glad I have that care to have the care nonetheless ;)
Lol... Profs tending to be Liberal... ROFL!!! *ahem* If you must know, this specific prof was VERY analytical, and thus would judge things on a per basis... |
Well you live in Canada.
I'm speaking about American colleges mostly. Your professor could also be different than the majority. I wouldn't know I've never met them. |
I'm just not sure "Liberal" is the right term...
I mean a Conservative could still be open-minded, just not adhere to another belief... It makes it sound as though they are the enemy... (I'd call myself a moderate). And to keep this on topic, I'd assume schooling to become a nurse or doctor in the US, would just be as intense as it is here? Or rather, is it just as expensive? |
I read the summary, and of course the bill isn't going to be perfect (really, did you think it could've?). As mentioned, the bill could be modified later anyhow if stuff doesn't work out the way it should. People won't like the individual mandate, and it's probably not an effective way to mandate health care anyhow, but premiums probably would skyrocket to make up revenue loss from gov't regulations without the mandate.
In any case, I can't complain that the bill would supposedly reduce deficit by $143 billion. I've been wondering this though: Americans pay taxes for city maintenance, garbage pickup, and other things related to property, right [correct me on the specifics if otherwise]? Then why do many consider taxes that contribute to health care as "stealing" their money when the access to health care is, I argue, just as fundamental as other services they currently pay for? Basically, why isn't health care treated on the same fundamental level as other services? Really, there are other things that Americans must mandatorily pay for, but I don't hear complaints there. @Feign: yeah, I'm pretty sure schooling in general, except for perhaps community colleges, would be way more expensive there than in Canada. |
Just as expensive? It's most likely more expensive. The good news is nursing can be done at community colleges if you are satisfied with just having that level of work completed. Grant nursing programs are competitive to be admitted to, a lot of the time even at community colleges.
The economic crisis is forcing schools K-12 as well as colleges and universities to make cuts and up fees. Now is the time to look into a private school (one that doesn't rely on public funds). |
I like the Canadian system; other than dental care not being covered, I know I'm looked after whether it be waiting in emergency for a condition to be analyzed (depending on the time of day, waiting times in my city are 5min-2h, based on severity) and I don't need to worry about costly bills for conception, medication, etc. My sister would normally pay 800$ a month for her diabetic medication, but after insurance and the Health Card, it drops to 10$. If I have to pay taxes over the course of my life to be sure that if something goes wrong with me or my family, I'm going to be okay, then by all means, I'm for it. I may be even paying for someone else's operation with my tax money; but at least it goes to a good place, rather than primarily into the army.
As for doctors leaving, we do have a shortage of doctors, but in Ontario and Quebec, they're trying to fix it by offering bribes to doctors to stay in the community, such as free housing and transport. Europe has 2x the population of the United States, so I don't see why it can't suddenly take on the European / Canadian Health Care system. It's not biased towards the rich; it gives fair opportunity to all. I personally hate the American system's "Only the rich are treated" mentality. It's inhuman. |
Ding! America has reached First World Nation!
Gratz! |
If First World Nation means socialized medicine then sorry, we haven't got there yet.
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Actually, this bill really doesn't do all that much in the current time.
They're giving it a few years; 2014 is when most of this gets enacted to the best of my understanding. If you'll notice, Obama comes up for re-election in 2012 so he could very well not even be in office when/if the thing's actually enacted. There are already states putting up defensive laws against this damn thing and it's just turning into a horrific little pile of poo all around. If it makes it to 2014, great. I don't really see that happening. What loopholes aren't the insurance companies going to find? What tricks are hospitals going to come up with to still make the biggest potential profit? I'm torn between trying to move abroad to a place with healthcare and leaving absolutely everything I've ever known behind me within the span of a year. I don't really have much of a choice because I can't afford private premiums. Why? To echo Klippy's comment, because I have pre-existing conditions that make me a financial loss to the health insurance company. I'm disabled because of said pre-existing conditions and have no income because of it. I looked into Medicaid and SSI, I'd be the type of person the system's made for, right? Wrong. My dad makes six digits a year and I don't qualify for Medicaid because of it. I can barely walk at the moment and the doctors have no clue why. Pretty scary considering that starting next January, I'm off my parent's nice somewhat affordable insurance and its somewhat reasonable copays. If they find something, ontop of trying to move, I have to try and handle it if it's life threatening or just try and learn to live with the whole not walking thing. We, my family that is, just recently finished paying over 5 grand in medical bills. That's after insurance copays. That inflation of prices isn't going to come down anytime soon. Honestly, I think it's going to get worse because these doctor and hospital people are going to want to keep their nice little profits as nice little doctors with big houses do and they're going to charge out the ass for things they're already charging out the ass for. 30 dollars for two pills of medication. 3,989 for a simple MRI. 900 a night for an ER visit. 1800 for a bed, 600 a night for the room the bed's in. 60 dollars for a shot of painkillers/antibiotics. 20 dollars for a hospital gown. He had 12 pills a day. 4 shots a day. He was in the hospital for 6 days. You do the math. [Note: These are ACTUAL PRICES just so you know from when my dad was in hospital last year. Same hospital, in 96 when my sister was hospitalized in the ICU for an entire month? We had a 1 grand total copay and the hospital took off 300 dollars because of special circumstances. They don't do that anymore.] Now I think people are being ridiculous with comments I've already seen places about how the goverment is going to control who lives and who dies [I've even seen comments about euthanasia of the elderly/sickly children because apparently that's what they do in Canada/Europe/Australia] and ridiculous little claims like that when the stupid bill hasn't even taken full effect yet. Imho, if we cared more about our fellow man than our own well-being and health ["I want my premium healthcare when I'm sick. If Billy can't afford it, it's Billy's fault for not managing his money properly" and/or "Billy's not my problem, I only care about my family and my problems"] then we wouldn't be so firmly against this I don't think. At least to my knowledge, the rest of the world thinks we're nuts for not already having this. Something to remember tho, healthcare at its core in the US of A is nothing more than a highly profitable buisness. It's not about helping people, it's not about curing cancer, it's not about making sick people better. It's about doing all those things previously mentioned and making as much money as you possibly can while you're doing them. Canadian doctors moved to the US to get more money. People come from India to the US to make money. Becoming a Doctor is the most expensive school track in University in the US. And I get that it's going to raise taxes; I'm upper middle class and this is going to hurt us. However, with the health conditions that I've had recently as well as stuff that's sprung up with my parents my ridiculously right winged Republican God-Fearing Stay-at-Home sometimes redneck mother has decided that this healthcare thing is worth the stress if it takes the strain off of us financially and makes it so I don't have to wait 6months to see a specialist about my heart murmur to afford the copay or you know, drop out of college for a semester or two to cover ridiculous medical bills. >:l What's really ironic to me is that the people who seem to be complaining about this healthcare business the most are the lucky americans who don't have a slew of health problems. They can pay the bare minimum nice little premiums and see the doctor maybe once or twice a year no big deal. In a sense, they're getting 'screwed' by this because now they have to pay more. Poor you. I understand that America is about the American dream and the pursuit of personal happiness but the more you ignore the problems of the people in your country, the worse things get. You don't take care of your people, the rest of the world looks down on you. Not that America isn't already looked down on for a slew of other things One last comment before I shut up, to those of you who think people are going to abuse the system? Somebody always abuses the system no matter what country, no matter what system it is. You can't avoid it you just have to deal with it. Take a great look at welfare in the US if you don't believe me. :> |
I'll open with a quote by our favorite OC Moderator.
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Bull. Friking. ****. Seriously, what did even more damage than Dubya managed to do was the largely REPUBLICAN congress that let not only Dubya's BS by, but allowed even more to pass by them while they acted dumb so the rich could get richer and they could keep their fat-asses in office! Yeah, I blame the economic collapse of 2008 squarely on Dubya, his administration, and the congress that had just closed it's session in november of that year! Quote:
My heart goes out to you as well Mika. Honestly, I am happy that this bill has squeaked through. While it's not exactly the cure for the issue it will bring some relief to honest americans who NEED the healthcare. As for the fine, I'm not worried about that provision, you have until 2014 to be insured or be in the poorhouse so that you aren't required to buy it. x3 Hopefully the next bill that is coming up will pass, which essentially makes some changes to the laws enacted by this bill and improves it. I don't exactly know what all is in the addendum bill, but hopefully it will cut out some of the pork that some of the Republicans probably demanded that be inserted into it so they would vote for it, and improve some of the more controversial portions of the bill which just passed. x3 |
I <3 it.
CHIBI CAN I MAKE MY OLD THREAD SO THE OTHERS CAN SEE THIS SUMMARY? Original thread: http://pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=197741 Quote:
BAWW. I WANTED TO REVIVE MY OLD DEBATE THREAD. ;o; :'( Anyways my usual crap has to go in here someplace. :P Economist Tsung-Mei Cheng three Universal Laws of Health Care Systems: 1. No matter how good the health care in a particular country, people will complain about it. 2. No matter how much money is spent on health care, the doctors and hospitals will argue it is not enough. 3. The last reform always failed. Currently the a stool in the Domestic policy of the Obama Administration, my favorite topic: Health Care reform, is being publicly debated throughout the United States. The Current Status of United States Healthcare Reform (March 22, 2010) http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46091000/jpg/_46091242_obama_ap226b.jpg Healthcare reform has been the top domestic agenda for US President Barack Obama for a majority of his first year Introduction “To provide affordable, quality health care for all Americans and reduce the growth in health care spending, and for other purposes.” Summary: The summary of the bill includes the following elements, among others: The central changes made by the legislation include:
Status: US House of Representatives: Affordable Health Care for America Act (H.R. 3962, introduced October 29, 2009, passed on November 7, 2009) The United States House of Representatives has passed it's version of the bill by a vote of 220 Yay - 215 Nay. The bill was supported by 219 Democrats and one Republican - Joseph Cao from New Orleans. Opposed were 176 Republicans and 39 Democrats. Now the Senate bill has been deemed the basis for the Health-care reform effort. The bill has passed 219 Yay - 212 Nay With all Republicans opposing the bill along with 41 Democrats. US House of Representatives (1st Vote): Bill Passed (220 Yay - 215 Nay) (2nd Vote):Bill Passed (219 Yay - 212 Nay) Tri Committee: House Energy and Commerce: Bill revised/Passed (31 Yes - 28 No) House Ways and Means : Bill revised/Passed (23 Yes – 18 No) House Education and Labor:Bill revised/Passed (26 Yes - 22 No) US Senate: The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590) is a bill passed by the United States Senate at 7:05am on December 24, 2009. On December 21, the Senate voted to end the Republican filibuster and vote on their version of health care reform, by 60 to 40. On Christmas Eve of 2009, the Senate arrived at 7am Eastern Time, the first time the Senate had met on Christmas Eve since 1895, and passed the bill to be compromised by both houses of Congress by a vote of 60-39, with only Jim Bunning (R-KY) failing to vote. As the basis for the reform effort, amendments proposed by the House will be bundled under a Reconciliation bill that is subject to a simple majority vote. With Vice President Biden casting the deciding tie breaker vote. US Senate (1st Vote): Bill Passed (60 Yay - 39 Nay) Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (HELP) Committee: Bill revised/Passed (13 Yes – 10 No) Senate Finance Committee: Bill revised/Passed (14 Yes - 9 No) No Country for Sick Men: To judge the content of a nation's character, look no further than its health-care system. [QUOTE]United States - Private system Private sector funded, with more than half from private sources. Private health insurance available through employer, government or private schemes. 15.3% of population (45.7 million people) do not have health insurance. Federal government is largest healthcare insurer - involved in two main schemes, Medicaid and Medicare, each covering about 13% of population. Medicaid - joint funded federal-state programme for certain low income and needy groups - eg children, disabled. Medicare - for people 65 years old and above and some younger disabled people and those with permanent kidney failure undergoing dialysis or transplant. Most doctors are in private practice and paid through combination of charges, discounted fees paid by private health plans, public programmes, and direct patient fees. In-patient care is provided in public and private hospitals. Hospitals are paid through a combination of charges, per admission, and capitation. UK - Universal, tax-funded system Public sector funded by taxation and some national insurance contributions. About 11% have private health insurance. Private GP services very small. Healthcare free at point of delivery but charges for prescription drugs (except in Wales), ophthalmic services and dental services unless exempt. Exemptions include children, elderly, and unemployed. About 85% of prescriptions are exempt. Most walk-in care provided by GP practices but also some walk-in clinics and 24-hour NHS telephone helpline. Free ambulance service and access to accident and emergency. In patient care through GP referral and follow contractual arrangements between health authorities, Primary Care Trusts and the hospital. Hospitals are semi-autonomous self-governing public trusts. France - Social insurance system All legal residents covered by public health insurance funded by compulsory social health insurance contributions from employers and employees with no option to opt out. Most people have extra private insurance to cover areas that are not eligible for reimbursement by the public health insurance system and many make out of pocket payments to see a doctor. Patients pay doctor's bills and are reimbursed by sickness insurance funds. Government regulates contribution rates paid to sickness funds, sets global budgets and salaries for public hospitals. In-patient care is provided in public and private hospitals (not-for-profit and for-profit). Doctors in public hospitals are salaried whilst those in private hospitals are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Some public hospital doctors are allowed to treat private patients in the hospital. A percentage of the private fee is payable to the hospital. Most out-patient care is delivered by doctors, dentists and medical auxiliaries working in their own practices. Singapore - Dual system Dual system funded by private and public sectors. Public sector provides 80% of hospital care 20% primary care. Financed by combination of taxes, employee medical benefits, compulsory savings in the form of Medisave, insurance and out-of-pocket payments. Patients expected to pay part of their medical expenses and to pay more for higher level of service. Government subsidises basic healthcare. Public sector health services cater for lower income groups who cannot afford private sector charges. In private hospitals and outpatient clinics, patients pay the amount charged by the hospitals and doctors on a fee-for-service basis. |
Liberals: Congratulations. You just successfully helped bring about economic armageddon.
Our taxes will go up almost immediately. Most small businesses will be incapable of paying for their employees' health care, so between fines and layoffs, they'll all disappear, and we'll have high unemployment, to levels we haven't seen since the 1930's. Prices on everything will rise, forcing a rise in minimum wage, driving inflation and the dollar's further weakening. All this, for what? Porkbarrel spending? Giving "free" healthcare to illegal immigrants(it's not free for the taxpayers the money will come from)? What should really scare EVERYONE is that Nancy Pelosi said Congress had to pass the bill in order to find out what's in it. Not to mention that from Canada, to much of Europe, and even the state of Massachusetts, socialized health care DOESN'T WORK. It ruins economies. And just imagine what the government will do next. I'm finding it more and more plausible that they will shred the Constitution and make the excuse that it is "no longer relevant to the current time". I say vote out anyone who voted yes to the bill. If that doesn't work, we may have to revolt once again. I am no anarachist, but I will fight to the death anyone who dares to try and take our rights, if I have to. |
HEY GUYS, AM I DOING THIS RIGHT? :/
Sarcasm aside, I have mixed feelings about this bill. I mean, yeah, healthcare is important, but I feel like the timing of the bill is awful. Its going to add like a BAGILLION dollars to the defecit and we already have like ~10% unemployment so imo its kinda a step backwards. I mean, healthcare is important and all, but apparently lots of doctors are gonna just up and quit/leave the country (hint: thats bad). Also I feel like the congress should be more focused on trying to give people jobs. Whatevs tho, it passed, I still hate all politicians and think we should nuke Washington D.C. and every other capital city in the world and start over. It'll probably be overturned I think. EDIT: Also, for anyone who thinks there is such a thing as "free" healtcare remember this annogram: TINSTAFL. There Is No Such Thing As a Free Lunch. |
I know someone in the medical field. Their unbiased opinion? They hated the bill.
And around 60% of Americans are against this. Tea Parties(I even went to one)and protests, the people's wishes=IGNORED. The government is saying, "Your rights? **** your rights, we're doing what we want." |
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Besides, there's a lot of opposition to this bill; I don't know why Pres. Obama is trying to establish it now, where it will most likely fail, instead of in a few years, and he could just work harder in gathering support. Not that I like him, but this just seems like the smarter decision if I did agree with him. |
I've got a couple of non-taxpayer funded solutions, if anyone wants to have a look.
First, we have to regulate these frivolous lawsuits better. (TORT REFORM!) It's not necessarily the lawsuits themselves, it's that the medical practices have been driven into paranoia with their frequency. Tons and tons of money is wasted on excess testing and procedures when medical practices do defensive medicine. And who can blame them? lawsuits can put them out of business completely, everyone knows know people sue for all they can get, even if they don't need it. It's the selfishness in human nature. Secondly, the real greedy scoundrels here are the colleges. THEY are the ones who need reform. Tuition is RIDICULOUSLY high for ANY profession, not to mention becoming a doctor takes a good 12 years of school. I saw a dateline documentary a couple years back that investigated all the frivolous spending colleges undertook while their professors weren't teaching and they hiked tuition to insane levels for those of us in the middle class who don't get many grants. The doctors have to spend the first ten years of their income on nothing but loans. If they want to actually be able to make ends meet with their business, however, they will inevitably pass the college cost onto the insurance companies by raising their fees, which forces the insurance companies to raise their premiums on us. All because some idiot headmaster has to gold-clad their campus and install Olympic-sized swimming pools. ugh. But the best part about fixing it with these? It doesn't cost the taxpayers ONE DIME, but it saves us tuition money AND helps the insurance companies lower premiums. And the only people who lose out are the lawyers and the stuck-up rich professors and school boards. You crying for them? I'm not. And please don't accuse me of not wanting to have health care reform. Everyone wants that. To say that Republicans and conservatives don't want health care reform is utterly ignorant, unfounded, and arrogant. Don't say I don't want reform when I'm laying out solutions right here for you. If there was one thing that really angered me about this whole process, it was that I, as a conservative, have been personally attacked and accused of not wanting reform and wanting people to die. |
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As for your previous post about taking up arms, that's absolutely absurd. No one is trying to take away your rights. Pardon me if I'm wring, but the Firth Amendment seems to be perfectly intact to me. But seriously, revolt? Because the other party passed a bill you don't like? Seriously? Just because Congressmen aren't doing what you want them to do doesn't mean that they're violating your rights. They are not obligated to go with what the people want. The way we "revolt" is by voting the people who pass what you don't like out of office. |
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After reading everyone's posts, I'm starting to not believe I will get the helpful insurance I need. I haven't had health insurance my whole life. I thought this would really help my family. But seeing what you guys are putting out on the table, I'm starting to doubt this. I really don't know what to think about it anymore. I'm gonna keep up with this thread so I can learn more about it. :/ |
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Representative government=they do what the majority of the people want. And the government doesn't have the right to force what they've rammed through onto the people. As for the guy with the Hitler mustache on Obama, that was a radical, and was on the opposite side of the spectrum of the liberals who just proved they will do whatever they want. |
Guys, remember that the parlamentary democracy we live in means that we vote our representatives and they pass the laws they think are better for the country. If majority voted for a Democrat president and a Democrat House of Representatives and a Democrat Senate, they have the legitimity to pass any Democrat bill they want. The majority show what they want in elections. So there is nothing wrong there.
Millions of people all over the world, America included, protested against the Iraq war, the Congress approved it, and you see how it ended. Quote:
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We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.
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Somehow, I feel like you have four years before you have to even start worrying about healtchare or anything like that. Quote:
Please stop posting. We never won, we still have troops there. I being semi-republican do not like the war in Iraq, seemed like a dumb thing imo, even tough Saddam was a terrible person. |
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2. Let's stay on topic. The Iraq War is a totally different deal. 3. Don't forget that there was more to fascism than just the eugenics and the Holocaust. As a conservative I can tell you from personal experience that the protesters who use such signs are trying to point out that our President is trying to run a government similar to the fascist government Hitler and Mussolini proposed, not that he is a genocidal totalitarian maniac. The parallels between this administration and the governmental theories and practices of fascism can be argued for strongly on an academic level. Check out a book called Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg to see what I mean. Again, they're not trying to call the President a mass-murderer, they are merely trying to say that the governmental principles of fascism are what Obama supports. I think they could have used a more respectful method to go about it, though. |
.Gamer, we have troops in Europe, Korea, the Phillippines, and many other locations around the world. And you have to agree that terrorist insurgents need to be put down so they don't come here or elsewhere.
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(I'd make a comment about how there was a civil war in Iraq for years that caused millions of deaths, including thousands of American soldiers, and no mass-destruction weapons and little Al Qaeda members, if any, were found there, despite wasting billions of $, but that's another topic). @ Prince_of_Light: Corupt process? Do you mind explaining? And I still think that Obama has little to do with fascism, since he's way more libreal that any European leader, and we don't get called "fascist", that I know of :\ |
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As for the liberals who "will do whatever they want," the Democrats sure don't get a lot done for supposedly having dictatorial tendencies. lol. |
Anti: Debating with you will clearly waste my time. You must not understand "representative government".
Went: We had more reasons besides WMDs to enter Iraq. Ignoring Hussein's existence, that was coming off 9/11. We though al-Qaeda was there. We went into Afghanistan, didn't we? When it comes to war, nobody protested when we entered WWII after Pearl Harbor. Iraq....Iraq is gray for me. But we won, now we're just doing clean up, more or less. |
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Also, to the people bashing the Canadian health system, what's exactly wrong with free health care? I know it has it's downfalls (not everything is covered), but it's kinda hard to complain about something that's free. |
I'm just glad we're finally moving the health care situation along. At least it's getting somewhere even if it's going to take a few years for some of the new changes to take effect.
I'll just leave it at that. |
I can definitely see the good in this, and I can also definitely see the bad in this. We get government healthcare at the expense of huge taxes imposed on small businesses...because the first step to fixing the economy is crippling almost half of the businesses in the country. At least the thousands of people that will inevitably be laid off will have healthcare. XD
I don't claim to be a very politically aware guy, and I'm often called an anarchist, so please educate me if I overgeneralized in this post. :P |
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The corrupt process has to do with both the Republicans and the press being shut out while the Democrats crafted deals and arm-twisted their less dedicated members. Not to mention the Slaughter solution. That would have totally raped the constitution and the dems were completely ready to go along with it if they needed to. Not to mention all the sweetheart deals present in the Senate bill such as the cornhusker kickback and the louisiana purchase (which still remain since it was the senate bill that was passed, by the way). Outright bribery for votes. And on top of that, if they needed to bribe others they were ready to put forward unused stimulus bill money forward to pay for the bribes as a slush fund! |
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But worse yet, the President and the Democratic party outright betrayed the American people. And that won't go over well, regardless of where they think they stand and regardless of how much they try to rationalize what they've done. Delusions of grandeur don't magically change the way the American people think. In response to anything else, all I can say is, we'll see what happens in November when the TV ads start reminding people about all this. |
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I think you're mislabling Conservatives with small government Economic Libertarians my friend.
Anyways, I am quite glad this bill passed. It might be crappy, but it just shows the glacial pace our Legislative system works. Seriously, most Republican ideas (back in '94 anyways) is incorporated into the bill. And due to the fact that nobody here would even WANT to discuss single-payer or the Wyden-Bennett bill it's no use discussing procedure. The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage. |
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Seriously, polls reflect current mood. once this bill is implemented, things should work a bit better. |
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I think the important thing here is that it passed. No need to make it into a debate, because frankly, people who are for it don't care about debating it. Why? Because it passed. So suck it. |
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Heck we're giving millions to the insurance industry. GET OVER IT. |
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<-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> ^ TYRANNY (fascism, socialism, __________________________________ ^ PEOPLE'S RULE ____________________________________________ ANARCHY ^ ___________oppressive monarchy)_______________________________(American federalism + ________________________________________(no government ______________________________________________________________our Constitution) _____________________________________________and chaos) Sorry about the underscores, that was the only way I could figure out how to format it right. I, and the other conservatives, support the People's rule. Not tyranny. Secondly, the biggest Republican idea wasn't implemented at all. If all we needed to do was: "The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage." Then why do we need 2,400 pages to do it? Something smells very fishy to me, and I have good reason to believe there is based on what I stated in my earlier post about corrupt procedure. On a side note, Obama has been quoted in the past as supporting a single-payer system. What makes you think his views have changed since then? Not to mention he has been insisting in his latest speeches that this is just "one gradual step toward true health care reform." I believe he still wants single-payer. |
• Pre-existing conditions... gone!
• Dependent care... extended until the age of 26! • Lifetime caps on coverage... gone! • Dropped from coverage because you got sick... over! • 32 million people who don't have coverage... covered! • Seniors who are impacted by the Medicare "donut hole"... donut hole closed! • 40,000 people who die on average every single year because they don't have insurance... saved! However, despite this momentous occasion, you had better believe that those who oppose this legislation will begin a fear campaign of the likes that you have never seen. The worst thing that could have happened to the GOP was for President Obama to obtain this victory. Now, because they positioned themselves as obstructionists, and called the President every name in the book from socialist to communist, they eliminated the possibility from voting with the bill. Doing this left them with no other choice but to continue the strategy of scaring the hell out of the American people before the next political election seasons of 2010 and 2012 in order to obtain a political victory. By not participating in this historic moment the GOP has proven that they are more concerned with self-preservation than trying to improve the conditions of the country. So here are some of the arguments and counterpoints that you can expect to hear: • Fear Based Argument - "Barack Obama and the Democratic Party are moving this nation to a socialist state!" • Response - Socialism is the theory advocating the state ownership of an industry or an economic system based on state ownership of capital. In fact, as far as health care is concerned the Government owns nothing. They only want to regulate it more to make sure that people don't die! • Fear Based Argument - "Barack Obama and the Democrats rammed this bill down our throats." • Response - We have been debating this bill for decades and the Republicans have never shown any interest in doing anything but keeping things the same. The same isn't working because costs keep rising and people keep dying. Just like a child who has a toy and hasn't played with it in weeks... let his friend have an interest in the toy and the child starts to cry, "Gimmie my toy!" GOP you had your turn to play with health care, you didn't want to play with it and you let costs continue to skyrocket while people died... it's the Democrats turn now! • Fear Based Argument - "This will spell political destruction for the Democratic party if you push this through!" • Response - The people voted Barack Obama into office to push this through. They only are upset with him because he took too long in pushing it through. • Fear Based Argument - "The people are against this legislation!" • Response - The people are highly in favor or health care reform. Barack Obama won on a campaign of promising a STRONGER health care legislation and that is the reason that they are against it. They want the public option which was taken out but promised in the campaign and they don't want mandates which Barack stated in his campaign he wasn't for. However, despite the fact that the people wanted a stronger bill, this bill as it stands is infinitely better than nothing at all because we now have a framework which we can build. • Fear Based Argument - "Obama and the Democrats want to kill Grandma!" • Response - End of life discussions with your doctor actually empower you to provide your doctor with information so that in case you are ever in a condition where you can't make these decisions for yourself (you are in a coma or vegetative state) your doctor will know exactly those wishes that YOU want to carry out pertaining to your life. Here is a previous blog that I wrote that elaborates on this fear based point. • Fear Based Argument - "The Democrats want to spend, spend, and spend so our children are saddled with heavy mountains of debt!" • Response - This bill is not only paid for, but it reduces the deficit according to the Congressional Budget Office by $140 billion in the first 10 years and by over $1.2 trillion in the following 10 years. For some reason you don't trust the CBO whenever they produce numbers that disprove your point and call them liars, but you cite them whenever they help to prove your point. Which is it? Are they reliable or liars? Furthermore, let's just say that this legislation was not funded as the multiple legislations passed under a Republican legislation such as the Medicare prescription drug plan, the tax cuts, and the two wars... there is no dollar value on the value of the almost 50,000 lives that will be spared per year, and millions whose lives will be improved because they now have health care coverage. • Fear Based Argument - "This is a Government takeover!" • Response - I thought that a Government takeover required the Government to actually take something over?! The hospitals will still be private, the doctors will still be private, and the Government will not collect ANY funds. For this to be a Government takeover, they sure did a poor job of taking over the health insurance industry. The GOP is the most effective marketing machine that you will ever come across. Their first priority is to get re-elected and they will stop at no cost to achieve that goal. Although the Democrats are enjoying this victory, we have to be aware of those on the right that will be giving an onslaught of rhetoric that can be very destructive to the party in November. They wake up with the same talking points and you can be sure that those talking points will be plastered on every news channel. Fake grass roots organizations like "Freedom Works", funded by Dick Armey, will continue to spread the message on a massive scale to hundreds of thousands across the country. We can't rest on our laurels thinking that we have done enough because policy is on our side. We have to combat this evil rhetoric not with evil, but with truth, facts, and a hell of a lot of noise! It is NOT ENOUGH to yell at the TV to create change. We have to arm ourselves with truth and become as active as they are. The political success of the left depends upon it. Hi. |
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Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us. |
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I <3 you Netto. lolGlenn Beck. As much as I am concerned about the possible repurcussions (for or against the bill, you must admit, it has the potnetial to go wrong) I have to agree with the people's rule part. Its true. Its the most dynamic aspect of our governmental system, and thus causes some swinging changes in public views, sometimes, public opinion shifts radically and other times it is a gradual process, this just happens to be one of those radical shifts in public opinion, it will most likely be brought up for repeal in the near future. |
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This is a BAD thing.....
Our Taxes will go up about 20%, and the ELDERLY PEOPLE and MEDICARE, are so screwed, Elderly prescriptions that were half cheap will skyrocket, THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING. |
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Put it very simply. =P |
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This is not a good thing. Health care will bankrupt America, and no republicans voted for it. What ever happened to by bipartisanship obamma promised.
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We DO Have an Idea, Ever since I have read the bible, it does say that if Health Care Passes, and stuff like that, TAKING US OVER, will cause 1 government, one leader, one dictator, and OBAMA is trying to do this, HEALTH CARE IS A BAD THING.
If you want higher taxes, higher prescriptions prices, elderly and medicare screwed, GO AHEAD LIKE IT.... |
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http://www.worldbuzznow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Health-Care-Vote-Count-Results-Health-Care-Bill-gets-Yes-300x226.jpg EDIT: Whoops, that's from the 2009 vote. If I can find an image of the Sunday vote I will post it. |
Congrats but what you wrote did not answer my questions slash my points. No republican support. Also this bill will be payed for during the next 10 years but only covering 5 years of medical support.
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Well, these two posts by you guys are the exact reason why no one here respects either of you. :] |
All I have to say to these People who want health care reform is that Go ahead and believe in it, when you are stuck in an unemployment office, needing to pay taxes, family, AND bills, they wont give you all of the money, taxes WILL be higher, dont complain.
When your parents or grandparents are dieing because they cant afford meds, dont complain here. |
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demeaning someone dose not prove your point. It was not there, so just make a rebuttal.
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Could you please type in english please? kthx Quote:
Look out for the Dehttp://tommychristopher.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/death_panel1.jpgth Panels! I think people are really blowing this out of proportion, but its not like the world is gonna blow up or anything I mean sheesh. |
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LOL I bet you don't know what that means. Health Care Reform passed. Get over it. |
Meh Im outta here, you democrats wanting health care reform are stupid.....
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Also. Quote:
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@Prince of light: At least some people has some brains here...
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NarutoActor>respect then little monster. I don't call people idiots just because I don't agree with them. The person that dose that is the true idiot. If you can't prove that anyone is an idiot, then you shouldn't say it. Show some facts and make your self seem logical; not the other way around. |
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I'm not saying this is a perfect bill(far from it), but it is in many ways superior. Of course people will have to pay more taxes, but does it matter if it's for the greater good?(Completely hypothetical situation here, let's just assume it's for the greater good) Also, is it stupidity or just pure laziness to stretch your finger and press the apostrophe so "I" and "m" can have some space? BTW, if MOTY ever happens, you get my vote as most entertaining member ;D I can see this snowballing into a flame war, but it's not like I can do anything about it D: |
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Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans.. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE GOVERNMENT?!?) Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.) Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services. Page 429 Lines 1-9: An "advanced-care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates. Page 354 Sec 1177: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special needs people |
^ All false or bent so much you made it false. Paying for something doesn't mean they are involved in it, stoopid.
If I give you 20 dollars to put gas in your car, does that mean I own 20 dollars of your car? No. Exactly. So stfu. Quote:
Don't lie now. You know, like every other republican does? Lying is a sin. ;_; |
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