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-   -   CONGRATS! US HEALTHCARE REFORM PASSES! (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=211774)

pokejungle March 21st, 2010 7:54 PM

CONGRATS! US HEALTHCARE REFORM PASSES!
 
Yay <3

This wasn't about Democrat vs Republican, this was about the health of American citizens. Anyone else ecstatic?

zhfac March 21st, 2010 8:18 PM

Canadian here; what exactly do Americans "get" now?

Luck March 21st, 2010 8:22 PM

Clearly America will be a socialist, fascist, and communist nation under ObamaCare.

In case you can't tell, sarcasm is being used :/

Prince_of_Light March 21st, 2010 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck (Post 5642956)
Clearly America will be a socialist, fascist, and communist nation under ObamaCare.

In case you can't tell, sarcasm is being used :/

Be sarcastic all you want till a few years come round and this BS is coming out of your wallet.

Feign March 21st, 2010 8:25 PM

It's government health care like us. ;)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Lovely how all republicans were against it. Clearly they would only like to see the rich survive.

IceSage March 21st, 2010 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhfac (Post 5642941)
Canadian here; what exactly do Americans "get" now?

Certainly not what your country provides. -_-

I'm not understanding how America can be such a great nation, yet we can't just do what other countries are doing... Or in fact, go to even better solutions. However, all the old farts waving their US flags around and praising such geniuses like Sarah Palin think things shouldn't change and that our obviously flawed healthcare plans are A-Okay.

Aureol March 21st, 2010 8:34 PM

Eh, 55% of America was opposed to it, myself included. It won't matter to me much though: I already planned on being poor when I'm older.

I'm not gonna rant here though. That's what facebook is for. ;) Besides, I don't want to involve myself in a place where healthcare is thought to only hurt the wealthy.

We needed change, no denying that. Too many people dying, poor economy, etc. This is definitely NOT what I had in mind though.

EDIT: I guess I am glad that taxes won't go to convenient abortions, though. That's one plus.

Chibi-chan March 21st, 2010 8:34 PM

BEFORE YOU SAY SOMETHING COMPLETELY STUPID


Healthcare Bill Summary



Not like any of you will actually read up on what you argue about.

Taemin March 21st, 2010 8:43 PM

Woo! This'll have some definite pros for some of my family members.

Luck March 21st, 2010 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5642959)
Be sarcastic all you want till a few years come round and this BS is coming out of your wallet.

At least in 2014, I won't be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions. :/

Prince_of_Light March 21st, 2010 8:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck (Post 5643008)
At least in 2014, I won't be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions. :/

And this monstrosity was just the perfect way to go about reform, wasn't it? Please.

AND DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO SAY REPUBLICANS ARE OPPOSED TO REFORM.

IT'S JUST THIS PIECE OF CRAP BILL WE'RE OPPOSED TO.

Esper March 21st, 2010 8:50 PM

I'm stunned. I didn't think it would actually pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Health Care Reform Bill Summary
Insurance Reforms:
  • Six months after enactment, insurance companies could no longer denying children coverage based on a preexisting condition.
  • Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.
  • Insurance companies must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans through age 26.

^ Most important part of the bill if you ask me.

Luck March 21st, 2010 8:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5643017)
And this monstrosity was just the perfect way to go about reform, wasn't it? Please.

AND DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO SAY REPUBLICANS ARE OPPOSED TO REFORM.

IT'S JUST THIS PIECE OF CRAP BILL WE'RE OPPOSED TO.

Republicans are opposed to reform.
Oh darn, I just had to say it :[

icomeanon6 March 21st, 2010 8:55 PM

Speaking as a generally conservative-leaning American, I'm highly suspicious of the long term benefits this bill will supposedly have for average Americans. This bill mainly goes after insurance companies, and in doing so avoids the problem of why health costs are so high.

As for you Canadians and such out there, you may want to consider that America's population is roughly 10 times the size of Canada's. It's much more complicated than it sounds to try and fit America into the same mold as Canada and Europe. Attempting to sustain a universal health care system in the United States could prove economically ruinous (which hurts the poor and working class citizens more than it does the rich) if the underlying problems of the costs of health care aren't addressed. I believe these costs can be fixed by de-obfuscating the way patients pay for their medical services, thus encouraging competition and market principles. Government intervention in the economy isn't necessarily good or bad. What matters is whether the government's actions encourage competition and other healthy economic practices. I pray I'm wrong, though, as this clearly isn't the direction in which we are moving.

I hope the Democrats are right about this one, because if they're not, then things are going to get really lousy for the poor/middle class Americans in a decade or two, possibly much worse than they are now. I don't care about the Republican party, they can go off and dissolve for all I care. What matters to me is the American people, and I sincerely do not think that this bill will be good for them in the long run. The rich will be fine whatever happens, they've got money and assets to cushion themselves. It's the rest of us that I'm concerned about.

Nice that you're all so happy. Hope it lasts.

Zet March 21st, 2010 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5643017)
And this monstrosity was just the perfect way to go about reform, wasn't it? Please.

AND DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO SAY REPUBLICANS ARE OPPOSED TO REFORM.

IT'S JUST THIS PIECE OF CRAP BILL WE'RE OPPOSED TO.

Aren't you more opposed to gay marriage, stem cells, abortions and crap?

It's also great to see America starting to become a better country.

BHwolfgang March 21st, 2010 8:59 PM

To be honest, I didn't expect this to be passed at all. With so much opposition coming from the Republicans, the chances were very slim. I'm just as surprised as many are.

Livewire March 21st, 2010 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck (Post 5643025)
Republicans are opposed to reform.
Oh darn, I just had to say it :[

pretty true, seeing as this is the second bill ive seen passed since obama took office without a single republican vote. now if it were a republican-backed "reform" (using that word lightly here) bill, there would be "yeas" across the board from them.

Klippy March 21st, 2010 9:04 PM

My uncle was just in the hospital and he was denied coverage by three insurance companies because he is unhealthy and had a preexisting condition and the companies would have had to pay for his bills, which were costly. So now he has to teach himself to walk again, since insurance wouldn't pay for his physical therapy for six weeks. If "ObamaCare" (The American taxpayers) wants to pay for his bills, then thanks. Appreciate it. I'm sure he does too, since it'll help him walk again, but he's certainly not complaining and he's doing well on his own. I know I'd love to help him, but my family can barely afford our own bills as it is, since we aren't rich like those evil Republicans!

My favorite part of the bill: "Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services"

And I'll say one thing to the people claiming how Republicans are evil and hate the poor. Some of your own, fellow Democrats voted no for the bill, so...why aren't you calling them evil and poor haters? I just find it funny that it's only the Republicans that are evil and not these Democrats, along with the other 55% of America that opposed the bill. But whatever. Ignore the facts that more than just Republicans opposed the bill and continue to say only they are evil. That's easier than accepting that 55% of people just didn't like it. :)

FreakyLocz14 March 21st, 2010 9:19 PM

This bill is a shame but thankfully it is nothing like the Canadian system.

The bigegst difference is there still is not socialiazed health plan, thank God.
The good: Bans insurers from denying people for pre-existing conditons or dropping people at will
The bad: Forces Americans who do not want or cannot afford private insurance to purchase it (need to be reviewed by US Supreme Court imo), might cover elective abortions

donavannj March 21st, 2010 9:22 PM

Something had to be done, but I frankly think it wasn't enough change. For the insurers, they should have been broken up in a way that was similar to the breakup of Bell Telephone in the 1980s, except it would be more focused on keeping one company from insuring more than 49% of any given state instead of having regional subdivisions of a company. That's the big thing I had issues with, considering how much the insurers spent per Congressman lobbying against this bill.

Åzurε March 21st, 2010 9:31 PM

I like the preexisting condition change, but did anybody look at how they say they're paying for it?

Medicare Payroll tax on investment income -- Starting in 2012, the Medicare Payroll Tax will be expanded to include unearned income. That will be a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for families making more than $250,000 per year ($200,000 for individuals).
So... we're taxing successful investors and their investments? The people who create small businesses, which employ a good third or more of the US workforce? And the administration says they're supporting small business. Interesting...

Excise Tax -- Beginning in 2018, insurance companies will pay a 40 percent excise tax on so-called "Cadillac" high-end insurance plans worth over $27,500 for families ($10,200 for individuals). Dental and vision plans are exempt and will not be counted in the total cost of a family's plan.
So this is taxing the companies that support the insurance?

Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.
Wth? Why put a 10% tax on something unprohibited like this? It just kinda seems to come out of thin air. Once it's applied, what percentage of people do you think will stop going?

In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.

Or face a $695 fine. You have four years to get in a position where you can buy this health care, or you get fined an extra 700 dollars a year.

Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.

So, if even a single worker gets subsidies, you're paying an extra 2k per year for all of them if you decide not to give health care. That'll get them to provide it, I guess.

I just want to try and state the plans to pay for it in plain English, and it seems... well, a bit taxing. Not to mention the state Medicare is in already...

WriteThemWrong March 21st, 2010 9:37 PM

obama's just a bad president, i'm sorry.

remember when he was campaigning and there was so much hope in his eyes (and speeches)? he promised so much, including promoting bipartisanship, helping the economy, and reforming health care. so far he hasn't kept any of his promises

FreakyLocz14 March 21st, 2010 9:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Åzurε (Post 5643085)
I like the preexisting condition change, but did anybody look at how they say they're paying for it?

Medicare Payroll tax on investment income -- Starting in 2012, the Medicare Payroll Tax will be expanded to include unearned income. That will be a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for families making more than $250,000 per year ($200,000 for individuals).
So... we're taxing successful investors and their investments? The people who create small businesses, which employ a good third or more of the US workforce? And the administration says they're supporting small business. Interesting...

Excise Tax -- Beginning in 2018, insurance companies will pay a 40 percent excise tax on so-called "Cadillac" high-end insurance plans worth over $27,500 for families ($10,200 for individuals). Dental and vision plans are exempt and will not be counted in the total cost of a family's plan.
So this is taxing the companies that support the insurance?

Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.
Wth? Why put a 10% tax on something unprohibited like this? It just kinda seems to come out of thin air. Once it's applied, what percentage of people do you think will stop going?

In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.

Or face a $695 fine. You have four years to get in a position where you can buy this health care, or you get fined an extra 700 dollars a year.

Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.

So, if even a single worker gets subsidies, you're paying an extra 2k per year for all of them if you decide not to give health care. That'll get them to provide it, I guess.

I just want to try and state the plans to pay for it in plain English, and it seems... well, a bit taxing. Not to mention the state Medicare is in already...

The biggest thing I'm opposed to is the entire "mandate" concept. Why should we force anyone to do anything? We never require anyone to purchase any kind of insurance. You can even get out of purchasing auto insurance by not driving and taking public transit. And you don't even have to insure your own car, you just have to cover other people's cars you might damage, and other associated costs with auto accidents.

A comapny with 50 employees is not large at all. This bill will be detrimental to small busnisses. Sure they say there are subsidies but there will always be some people/companies who barely miss the cut-off income marks to qualify for these subsidies.

Aureol March 21st, 2010 9:43 PM

As much as I hate this bill, I'm celebrating Democracy right now. I'm a Libertarian, so I didn't see this bill as a Democrat/Republican thing, I see this as many people see it: a chance to change a very broken system. Sure, it's definitely not in my direction (actually, it's VERY far from it), but I'm glad that on issues like these people actually try to figure out what our government's up to.

Eh, this is very bittersweet. I just hope not too much damage is caused by this.

FreakyLocz14 March 21st, 2010 9:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aureol (Post 5643110)
As much as I hate this bill, I'm celebrating Democracy right now. I'm a Libertarian, so I didn't see this bill as a Democrat/Republican thing, I see this as many people see it: a chance to change a very broken system. Sure, it's definitely not in my direction (actually, it's VERY far from it), but I'm glad that on issues like these people actually try to figure out what our government's up to.

Eh, this is very bittersweet. I just hope not too much damage is caused by this.

This could turn out better than we are fearing.
The Supreme Court could strike down parts of the bill like the mandates. Even better if the bill doesn't fund abortions.

Aurafire March 21st, 2010 9:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi-chan (Post 5642980)
BEFORE YOU SAY SOMETHING COMPLETELY STUPID

Healthcare Bill Summary



Too late.

I'm glad y'all are happy, but...Instead of taking the opportunity to blindly bash Republicans and complain about how we still don't have universal health care, maybe you should actually read the link Chibi posted and try to understand what this bill means in the long run. Because trust me, it's not just *poof* 30 million Americans are now covered with no drawbacks. We'll be paying for this for ages. One trillion dollars is a huge amount of money, and sooner or later, the middle class is going to be feeling the heat in the form of those wonderful things called taxes. Ironic how a bill that's supposed to support the middle/lower classes may actually come back to bite them in the arse in the long run, no?

Please, please, before I die from some these horribly idealistic and naive posts. Try to understand the bill before passing judgement. I don't doubt that many of you will still be 100% in favor of the reform, but at least know that it's not as perfect as it may seem =/

Chibi-chan March 21st, 2010 9:58 PM

Put the link in that quote so people can see it on the second page too D:<

Feign March 21st, 2010 10:03 PM

I wonder what would happen if the government suddenly rellocated a good majority of military spending to health care and educate... oh shi...

The only thing I don't like about Canada's system is how fragile it is. That is to say, all our good doctors were moving south where the money is. No offense to you guys and all, but I hope also with this bill some Canadian doctors will stay in Canada, and benefit our ailing system as well, that is to say, if they feel they need to stay, or are concerned about salary, though it doesn't sound like that would change... XD

Maybe we can make it as a symbiotic relationship? XD

FreakyLocz14 March 21st, 2010 10:09 PM

Not to be too mean, but Canada has itself to blame for its doctors leaving. If it didn't have a socialized system, they wouldn't be leaving.

Socialized medicine gives insurance companies less incentive to invest in newer technologies. They would go for what is cheaper so they can conform to the government's strict standards. Which includes paying doctors less. Why do you think most jobs are going overseas?

That being said I don't think this bill will help Canadians significantly. American doctors will probably still be paid much more on average than their Canadian counterparts.

Feign March 21st, 2010 10:18 PM

Yeah, what I thought pretty much.

I remember my old sociology prof talking about public medical care, and how it could be fixed and such. Though that was a while back :3 (I should find the notes sometime).

In the end though, it seems the insurance companies just want a profit...

FreakyLocz14 March 21st, 2010 10:38 PM

College professors tend to be liberals so I wouldn't trust one without filtering for bias.

And of course insurance companies want to make a profit. Why does anyone start a business? To make money off of it.
The profit motive is what puts the US at the top of the world in the quality of healthcare. The best care and the best technologies go to people who can afford it. In countries with socialized systems everyone gets the same mediocre standard of care.

Feign March 21st, 2010 10:54 PM

I'm glad I have that care to have the care nonetheless ;)

Lol... Profs tending to be Liberal... ROFL!!! *ahem* If you must know, this specific prof was VERY analytical, and thus would judge things on a per basis...

FreakyLocz14 March 21st, 2010 11:03 PM

Well you live in Canada.

I'm speaking about American colleges mostly. Your professor could also be different than the majority. I wouldn't know I've never met them.

Feign March 21st, 2010 11:09 PM

I'm just not sure "Liberal" is the right term...

I mean a Conservative could still be open-minded, just not adhere to another belief...

It makes it sound as though they are the enemy... (I'd call myself a moderate).

And to keep this on topic, I'd assume schooling to become a nurse or doctor in the US, would just be as intense as it is here? Or rather, is it just as expensive?

bmah March 21st, 2010 11:18 PM

I read the summary, and of course the bill isn't going to be perfect (really, did you think it could've?). As mentioned, the bill could be modified later anyhow if stuff doesn't work out the way it should. People won't like the individual mandate, and it's probably not an effective way to mandate health care anyhow, but premiums probably would skyrocket to make up revenue loss from gov't regulations without the mandate.
In any case, I can't complain that the bill would supposedly reduce deficit by $143 billion.

I've been wondering this though:

Americans pay taxes for city maintenance, garbage pickup, and other things related to property, right [correct me on the specifics if otherwise]? Then why do many consider taxes that contribute to health care as "stealing" their money when the access to health care is, I argue, just as fundamental as other services they currently pay for? Basically, why isn't health care treated on the same fundamental level as other services? Really, there are other things that Americans must mandatorily pay for, but I don't hear complaints there.

@Feign: yeah, I'm pretty sure schooling in general, except for perhaps community colleges, would be way more expensive there than in Canada.

FreakyLocz14 March 21st, 2010 11:18 PM

Just as expensive? It's most likely more expensive. The good news is nursing can be done at community colleges if you are satisfied with just having that level of work completed. Grant nursing programs are competitive to be admitted to, a lot of the time even at community colleges.

The economic crisis is forcing schools K-12 as well as colleges and universities to make cuts and up fees. Now is the time to look into a private school (one that doesn't rely on public funds).

Yusshin March 22nd, 2010 4:26 AM

I like the Canadian system; other than dental care not being covered, I know I'm looked after whether it be waiting in emergency for a condition to be analyzed (depending on the time of day, waiting times in my city are 5min-2h, based on severity) and I don't need to worry about costly bills for conception, medication, etc. My sister would normally pay 800$ a month for her diabetic medication, but after insurance and the Health Card, it drops to 10$. If I have to pay taxes over the course of my life to be sure that if something goes wrong with me or my family, I'm going to be okay, then by all means, I'm for it. I may be even paying for someone else's operation with my tax money; but at least it goes to a good place, rather than primarily into the army.

As for doctors leaving, we do have a shortage of doctors, but in Ontario and Quebec, they're trying to fix it by offering bribes to doctors to stay in the community, such as free housing and transport.

Europe has 2x the population of the United States, so I don't see why it can't suddenly take on the European / Canadian Health Care system. It's not biased towards the rich; it gives fair opportunity to all. I personally hate the American system's "Only the rich are treated" mentality. It's inhuman.

Bianca Paragon March 22nd, 2010 6:36 AM

Ding! America has reached First World Nation!
Gratz!

FreakyLocz14 March 22nd, 2010 6:38 AM

If First World Nation means socialized medicine then sorry, we haven't got there yet.

Mika March 22nd, 2010 7:16 AM

Actually, this bill really doesn't do all that much in the current time.

They're giving it a few years; 2014 is when most of this gets enacted to the best of my understanding.

If you'll notice, Obama comes up for re-election in 2012 so he could very well not even be in office when/if the thing's actually enacted. There are already states putting up defensive laws against this damn thing and it's just turning into a horrific little pile of poo all around. If it makes it to 2014, great. I don't really see that happening. What loopholes aren't the insurance companies going to find? What tricks are hospitals going to come up with to still make the biggest potential profit?

I'm torn between trying to move abroad to a place with healthcare and leaving absolutely everything I've ever known behind me within the span of a year. I don't really have much of a choice because I can't afford private premiums. Why? To echo Klippy's comment, because I have pre-existing conditions that make me a financial loss to the health insurance company. I'm disabled because of said pre-existing conditions and have no income because of it. I looked into Medicaid and SSI, I'd be the type of person the system's made for, right? Wrong. My dad makes six digits a year and I don't qualify for Medicaid because of it. I can barely walk at the moment and the doctors have no clue why. Pretty scary considering that starting next January, I'm off my parent's nice somewhat affordable insurance and its somewhat reasonable copays. If they find something, ontop of trying to move, I have to try and handle it if it's life threatening or just try and learn to live with the whole not walking thing.

We, my family that is, just recently finished paying over 5 grand in medical bills. That's after insurance copays. That inflation of prices isn't going to come down anytime soon. Honestly, I think it's going to get worse because these doctor and hospital people are going to want to keep their nice little profits as nice little doctors with big houses do and they're going to charge out the ass for things they're already charging out the ass for. 30 dollars for two pills of medication. 3,989 for a simple MRI. 900 a night for an ER visit. 1800 for a bed, 600 a night for the room the bed's in. 60 dollars for a shot of painkillers/antibiotics. 20 dollars for a hospital gown. He had 12 pills a day. 4 shots a day. He was in the hospital for 6 days. You do the math. [Note: These are ACTUAL PRICES just so you know from when my dad was in hospital last year. Same hospital, in 96 when my sister was hospitalized in the ICU for an entire month? We had a 1 grand total copay and the hospital took off 300 dollars because of special circumstances. They don't do that anymore.]

Now I think people are being ridiculous with comments I've already seen places about how the goverment is going to control who lives and who dies [I've even seen comments about euthanasia of the elderly/sickly children because apparently that's what they do in Canada/Europe/Australia] and ridiculous little claims like that when the stupid bill hasn't even taken full effect yet. Imho, if we cared more about our fellow man than our own well-being and health ["I want my premium healthcare when I'm sick. If Billy can't afford it, it's Billy's fault for not managing his money properly" and/or "Billy's not my problem, I only care about my family and my problems"] then we wouldn't be so firmly against this I don't think. At least to my knowledge, the rest of the world thinks we're nuts for not already having this.

Something to remember tho, healthcare at its core in the US of A is nothing more than a highly profitable buisness. It's not about helping people, it's not about curing cancer, it's not about making sick people better. It's about doing all those things previously mentioned and making as much money as you possibly can while you're doing them. Canadian doctors moved to the US to get more money. People come from India to the US to make money. Becoming a Doctor is the most expensive school track in University in the US.

And I get that it's going to raise taxes; I'm upper middle class and this is going to hurt us. However, with the health conditions that I've had recently as well as stuff that's sprung up with my parents my ridiculously right winged Republican God-Fearing Stay-at-Home sometimes redneck mother has decided that this healthcare thing is worth the stress if it takes the strain off of us financially and makes it so I don't have to wait 6months to see a specialist about my heart murmur to afford the copay or you know, drop out of college for a semester or two to cover ridiculous medical bills. >:l

What's really ironic to me is that the people who seem to be complaining about this healthcare business the most are the lucky americans who don't have a slew of health problems. They can pay the bare minimum nice little premiums and see the doctor maybe once or twice a year no big deal. In a sense, they're getting 'screwed' by this because now they have to pay more. Poor you.

I understand that America is about the American dream and the pursuit of personal happiness but the more you ignore the problems of the people in your country, the worse things get. You don't take care of your people, the rest of the world looks down on you. Not that America isn't already looked down on for a slew of other things One last comment before I shut up, to those of you who think people are going to abuse the system? Somebody always abuses the system no matter what country, no matter what system it is. You can't avoid it you just have to deal with it. Take a great look at welfare in the US if you don't believe me. :>

Melody March 22nd, 2010 8:58 AM

I'll open with a quote by our favorite OC Moderator.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi-chan (Post 5642980)
BEFORE YOU SAY SOMETHING COMPLETELY STUPID


Healthcare Bill Summary
Not like any of you will actually read up on what you argue about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feign (Post 5642960)
It's government health care like us. ;)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Lovely how all republicans were against it. Clearly they would only like to see the rich survive.

Lololol No der. Remember the BS that Dubya pulled in office? You bet your shiney hiney he was oiled! (Meaning he wasn't always defending the interests of the nation, but looking out for BIG OIL COMPANIES)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5643017)
And this monstrosity was just the perfect way to go about reform, wasn't it? Please.

AND DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO SAY REPUBLICANS ARE OPPOSED TO REFORM.

IT'S JUST THIS PIECE OF CRAP BILL WE'RE OPPOSED TO.


Bull. Friking. ****. Seriously, what did even more damage than Dubya managed to do was the largely REPUBLICAN congress that let not only Dubya's BS by, but allowed even more to pass by them while they acted dumb so the rich could get richer and they could keep their fat-asses in office! Yeah, I blame the economic collapse of 2008 squarely on Dubya, his administration, and the congress that had just closed it's session in november of that year!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klippy (Post 5643050)
My uncle was just in the hospital and he was denied coverage by three insurance companies because he is unhealthy and had a preexisting condition and the companies would have had to pay for his bills, which were costly. So now he has to teach himself to walk again, since insurance wouldn't pay for his physical therapy for six weeks. If "ObamaCare" (The American taxpayers) wants to pay for his bills, then thanks. Appreciate it. I'm sure he does too, since it'll help him walk again, but he's certainly not complaining and he's doing well on his own. I know I'd love to help him, but my family can barely afford our own bills as it is, since we aren't rich like those evil Republicans!

My favorite part of the bill: "Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services"

And I'll say one thing to the people claiming how Republicans are evil and hate the poor. Some of your own, fellow Democrats voted no for the bill, so...why aren't you calling them evil and poor haters? I just find it funny that it's only the Republicans that are evil and not these Democrats, along with the other 55% of America that opposed the bill. But whatever. Ignore the facts that more than just Republicans opposed the bill and continue to say only they are evil. That's easier than accepting that 55% of people just didn't like it. :)

I honestly feel for you. I've seen this BS happen to so many families even right here where I live, in the big middle of the Permian Basin. x3

My heart goes out to you as well Mika.

Honestly, I am happy that this bill has squeaked through. While it's not exactly the cure for the issue it will bring some relief to honest americans who NEED the healthcare.

As for the fine, I'm not worried about that provision, you have until 2014 to be insured or be in the poorhouse so that you aren't required to buy it. x3 Hopefully the next bill that is coming up will pass, which essentially makes some changes to the laws enacted by this bill and improves it. I don't exactly know what all is in the addendum bill, but hopefully it will cut out some of the pork that some of the Republicans probably demanded that be inserted into it so they would vote for it, and improve some of the more controversial portions of the bill which just passed. x3

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 10:22 AM

I <3 it.
 
CHIBI CAN I MAKE MY OLD THREAD SO THE OTHERS CAN SEE THIS SUMMARY?


Original thread: http://pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=197741


Quote:

Originally Posted by pokejungle (Post 5642901)
Yay <3

This wasn't about Democrat vs Republican, this was about the health of American citizens. Anyone else ecstatic?

BAWW. I WANTED TO REVIVE MY OLD DEBATE THREAD. ;o;

:'(

Anyways my usual crap has to go in here someplace. :P

Economist Tsung-Mei Cheng three Universal Laws of Health Care Systems:

1. No matter how good the health care in a particular country, people will complain about it.
2. No matter how much money is spent on health care, the doctors and hospitals will argue it is not enough.
3. The last reform always failed.

Currently the a stool in the Domestic policy of the Obama Administration, my favorite topic: Health Care reform, is being publicly debated throughout the United States.

The Current Status of United States Healthcare Reform
(March 22, 2010)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46091000/jpg/_46091242_obama_ap226b.jpg
Healthcare reform has been the top domestic agenda for US President Barack Obama for a majority of his first year


Introduction
“To provide affordable, quality health care for all Americans and reduce the growth in health care spending, and for other purposes.”

Summary:
The summary of the bill includes the following elements, among others:

The central changes made by the legislation include:
  • prohibiting health insurers from refusing coverage based on patients' medical histories
  • prohibiting health insurers from charging different rates based on patients' medical histories or gender
  • repeal of insurance companies' exemption from anti-trust laws
  • establishing minimum standards for qualified health benefit plans
  • requiring most employers to provide coverage for their workers or pay a surtax on the worker's wages up to 8%
  • restrictions on abortion coverage in any insurance plans for which federal funds are used
  • an expansion of Medicaid to include more low-income Americans by increasing Medicaid eligibility limits to 150% of the Federal Poverty Level and by covering adults without dependents so as long as either or any segment doesn't fall under the narrow exceptions outlined by various clauses throughout the proposal.
  • a subsidy to low- and middle-income Americans to help buy insurance
  • a central health insurance exchange where the public can compare policies and rates
  • a government-run insurance plan (public option); according to some analyses, the plan would be prohibited from covering abortions
  • requiring most Americans to carry or obtain qualifying health insurance coverage or possibly face a surtax for non-compliance.
  • a 5.4% surtax on individuals whose adjusted gross income exceeds $500,000 ($1 million for married couples filing joint returns)
  • a 2.5% excise tax on medical devices
  • reductions in projected spending on Medicare of $400 billion over a ten-year period
  • inclusion of language originally proposed in the Tax Equity for Domestic Partner and Health Plan Beneficiaries Act
  • inclusion of language originally proposed in the Indian Health Care Improvement Act Amendments of 2009.

Status:

US House of Representatives: Affordable Health Care for America Act (H.R. 3962, introduced October 29, 2009, passed on November 7, 2009)

The United States House of Representatives has passed it's version of the bill by a vote of 220 Yay - 215 Nay.

The bill was supported by 219 Democrats and one Republican - Joseph Cao from New Orleans. Opposed were 176 Republicans and 39 Democrats.

Now the Senate bill has been deemed the basis for the Health-care reform effort. The bill has passed 219 Yay - 212 Nay

With all Republicans opposing the bill along with 41 Democrats.

US House of Representatives
(1st Vote): Bill Passed (220 Yay - 215 Nay)
(2nd Vote):Bill Passed (219 Yay - 212 Nay)

Tri Committee:
House Energy and Commerce: Bill revised/Passed (31 Yes - 28 No)
House Ways and Means : Bill revised/Passed (23 Yes – 18 No)
House Education and Labor:Bill revised/Passed (26 Yes - 22 No)

US Senate: The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590) is a bill passed by the United States Senate at 7:05am on December 24, 2009.

On December 21, the Senate voted to end the Republican filibuster and vote on their version of health care reform, by 60 to 40.

On Christmas Eve of 2009, the Senate arrived at 7am Eastern Time, the first time the Senate had met on Christmas Eve since 1895, and passed the bill to be compromised by both houses of Congress by a vote of 60-39, with only Jim Bunning (R-KY) failing to vote.

As the basis for the reform effort, amendments proposed by the House will be bundled under a Reconciliation bill that is subject to a simple majority vote. With Vice President Biden casting the deciding tie breaker vote.

US Senate (1st Vote): Bill Passed (60 Yay - 39 Nay)

Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (HELP) Committee: Bill revised/Passed (13 Yes – 10 No)
Senate Finance Committee: Bill revised/Passed (14 Yes - 9 No)

No Country for Sick Men: To judge the content of a nation's character, look no further than its health-care system.




[QUOTE]United States - Private system
Private sector funded, with more than half from private sources. Private health insurance available through employer, government or private schemes.

15.3% of population (45.7 million people) do not have health insurance.

Federal government is largest healthcare insurer - involved in two main schemes, Medicaid and Medicare, each covering about 13% of population.

Medicaid - joint funded federal-state programme for certain low income and needy groups - eg children, disabled.

Medicare - for people 65 years old and above and some younger disabled people and those with permanent kidney failure undergoing dialysis or transplant.

Most doctors are in private practice and paid through combination of charges, discounted fees paid by private health plans, public programmes, and direct patient fees.

In-patient care is provided in public and private hospitals. Hospitals are paid through a combination of charges, per admission, and capitation.

UK - Universal, tax-funded system

Public sector funded by taxation and some national insurance contributions.

About 11% have private health insurance. Private GP services very small.
Healthcare free at point of delivery but charges for prescription drugs (except in Wales), ophthalmic services and dental services unless exempt.
Exemptions include children, elderly, and unemployed. About 85% of prescriptions are exempt.
Most walk-in care provided by GP practices but also some walk-in clinics and 24-hour NHS telephone helpline. Free ambulance service and access to accident and emergency. In patient care through GP referral and follow contractual arrangements between health authorities, Primary Care Trusts and the hospital.
Hospitals are semi-autonomous self-governing public trusts.

France - Social insurance system
All legal residents covered by public health insurance funded by compulsory social health insurance contributions from employers and employees with no option to opt out.
Most people have extra private insurance to cover areas that are not eligible for reimbursement by the public health insurance system and many make out of pocket payments to see a doctor.

Patients pay doctor's bills and are reimbursed by sickness insurance funds.
Government regulates contribution rates paid to sickness funds, sets global budgets and salaries for public hospitals.
In-patient care is provided in public and private hospitals (not-for-profit and for-profit). Doctors in public hospitals are salaried whilst those in private hospitals are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Some public hospital doctors are allowed to treat private patients in the hospital. A percentage of the private fee is payable to the hospital.
Most out-patient care is delivered by doctors, dentists and medical auxiliaries working in their own practices.

Singapore - Dual system
Dual system funded by private and public sectors. Public sector provides 80% of hospital care 20% primary care.

Financed by combination of taxes, employee medical benefits, compulsory savings in the form of Medisave, insurance and out-of-pocket payments.
Patients expected to pay part of their medical expenses and to pay more for higher level of service. Government subsidises basic healthcare.

Public sector health services cater for lower income groups who cannot afford private sector charges. In private hospitals and outpatient clinics, patients pay the amount charged by the hospitals and doctors on a fee-for-service basis.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 11:04 AM

Liberals: Congratulations. You just successfully helped bring about economic armageddon.

Our taxes will go up almost immediately. Most small businesses will be incapable of paying for their employees' health care, so between fines and layoffs, they'll all disappear, and we'll have high unemployment, to levels we haven't seen since the 1930's. Prices on everything will rise, forcing a rise in minimum wage, driving inflation and the dollar's further weakening.
All this, for what? Porkbarrel spending? Giving "free" healthcare to illegal immigrants(it's not free for the taxpayers the money will come from)?
What should really scare EVERYONE is that Nancy Pelosi said Congress had to pass the bill in order to find out what's in it. Not to mention that from Canada, to much of Europe, and even the state of Massachusetts, socialized health care DOESN'T WORK. It ruins economies. And just imagine what the government will do next. I'm finding it more and more plausible that they will shred the Constitution and make the excuse that it is "no longer relevant to the current time".
I say vote out anyone who voted yes to the bill. If that doesn't work, we may have to revolt once again. I am no anarachist, but I will fight to the death anyone who dares to try and take our rights, if I have to.

.Gamer March 22nd, 2010 11:11 AM

HEY GUYS, AM I DOING THIS RIGHT? :/

Sarcasm aside, I have mixed feelings about this bill. I mean, yeah, healthcare is important, but I feel like the timing of the bill is awful. Its going to add like a BAGILLION dollars to the defecit and we already have like ~10% unemployment so imo its kinda a step backwards. I mean, healthcare is important and all, but apparently lots of doctors are gonna just up and quit/leave the country (hint: thats bad). Also I feel like the congress should be more focused on trying to give people jobs. Whatevs tho, it passed, I still hate all politicians and think we should nuke Washington D.C. and every other capital city in the world and start over. It'll probably be overturned I think.


EDIT: Also, for anyone who thinks there is such a thing as "free" healtcare remember this annogram: TINSTAFL. There Is No Such Thing As a Free Lunch.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 11:17 AM

I know someone in the medical field. Their unbiased opinion? They hated the bill.

And around 60% of Americans are against this. Tea Parties(I even went to one)and protests, the people's wishes=IGNORED. The government is saying, "Your rights? **** your rights, we're doing what we want."

Aureol March 22nd, 2010 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .Gamer (Post 5643955)
Sarcasm aside, I have mixed feelings about this bill. I mean, yeah, healthcare is important, but I feel like the timing of the bill is awful. Its going to add like a BAGILLION dollars to the defecit and we already have like ~10% unemployment so imo its kinda a step backwards. I mean, healthcare is important and all, but apparently lots of doctors are gonna just up and quit/leave the country (hint: thats bad). Also I feel like the congress should be more focused on trying to give people jobs. Whatevs tho, it passed, I still hate all politicians and think we should nuke Washington D.C. and every other capital city in the world and start over. It'll probably be overturned I think.


EDIT: Also, for anyone who thinks there is such a thing as "free" healtcare remember this annogram: TINSTAFL. There Is No Such Thing As a Free Lunch.

I'm in the same boat as you. I felt we needed change bad, but I think this is a step in the wrong direction. I'm no genius, so if you asked me, I wouldn't come up with a solution, but this is wrong.

Besides, there's a lot of opposition to this bill; I don't know why Pres. Obama is trying to establish it now, where it will most likely fail, instead of in a few years, and he could just work harder in gathering support. Not that I like him, but this just seems like the smarter decision if I did agree with him.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 11:46 AM

I've got a couple of non-taxpayer funded solutions, if anyone wants to have a look.

First, we have to regulate these frivolous lawsuits better. (TORT REFORM!) It's not necessarily the lawsuits themselves, it's that the medical practices have been driven into paranoia with their frequency. Tons and tons of money is wasted on excess testing and procedures when medical practices do defensive medicine. And who can blame them? lawsuits can put them out of business completely, everyone knows know people sue for all they can get, even if they don't need it. It's the selfishness in human nature.

Secondly, the real greedy scoundrels here are the colleges. THEY are the ones who need reform. Tuition is RIDICULOUSLY high for ANY profession, not to mention becoming a doctor takes a good 12 years of school. I saw a dateline documentary a couple years back that investigated all the frivolous spending colleges undertook while their professors weren't teaching and they hiked tuition to insane levels for those of us in the middle class who don't get many grants. The doctors have to spend the first ten years of their income on nothing but loans. If they want to actually be able to make ends meet with their business, however, they will inevitably pass the college cost onto the insurance companies by raising their fees, which forces the insurance companies to raise their premiums on us.

All because some idiot headmaster has to gold-clad their campus and install Olympic-sized swimming pools. ugh.

But the best part about fixing it with these? It doesn't cost the taxpayers ONE DIME, but it saves us tuition money AND helps the insurance companies lower premiums. And the only people who lose out are the lawyers and the stuck-up rich professors and school boards. You crying for them? I'm not.

And please don't accuse me of not wanting to have health care reform. Everyone wants that. To say that Republicans and conservatives don't want health care reform is utterly ignorant, unfounded, and arrogant. Don't say I don't want reform when I'm laying out solutions right here for you.

If there was one thing that really angered me about this whole process, it was that I, as a conservative, have been personally attacked and accused of not wanting reform and wanting people to die.

Anti March 22nd, 2010 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5643971)
I know someone in the medical field. Their unbiased opinion? They hated the bill.

And around 60% of Americans are against this. Tea Parties(I even went to one)and protests, the people's wishes=IGNORED. The government is saying, "Your rights? **** your rights, we're doing what we want."

The people collectively elected the people who passed the bill. Just because a lot of people oppose the bill does not mean that the government is in any way ignoring or taking away your rights. I wasn't aware that ignoring a bunch of people carrying signs asking to impeach the president or having him with a Hitler mustache was somehow bad.

As for your previous post about taking up arms, that's absolutely absurd. No one is trying to take away your rights. Pardon me if I'm wring, but the Firth Amendment seems to be perfectly intact to me. But seriously, revolt? Because the other party passed a bill you don't like? Seriously? Just because Congressmen aren't doing what you want them to do doesn't mean that they're violating your rights. They are not obligated to go with what the people want. The way we "revolt" is by voting the people who pass what you don't like out of office.

Mattysaurus March 22nd, 2010 11:51 AM

Quote:

Coverage:

* Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
What do they mean by this?
After reading everyone's posts, I'm starting to not believe I will get the helpful insurance I need. I haven't had health insurance my whole life. I thought this would really help my family. But seeing what you guys are putting out on the table, I'm starting to doubt this. I really don't know what to think about it anymore. I'm gonna keep up with this thread so I can learn more about it. :/

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 5644065)
The people collectively elected the people who passed the bill. Just because a lot of people oppose the bill does not mean that the government is in any way ignoring or taking away your rights. I wasn't aware that ignoring a bunch of people carrying signs asking to impeach the president or having him with a Hitler mustache was somehow bad.

As for your previous post about taking up arms, that's absolutely absurd. No one is trying to take away your rights. Pardon me if I'm wring, but the Firth Amendment seems to be perfectly intact to me. But seriously, revolt? Because the other party passed a bill you don't like? Seriously? Just because Congressmen aren't doing what you want them to do doesn't mean that they're violating your rights. They are not obligated to go with what the people want. The way we "revolt" is by voting the people who pass what you don't like out of office.

Bold=just plain wrong.


Representative government=they do what the majority of the people want.
And the government doesn't have the right to force what they've rammed through onto the people.
As for the guy with the Hitler mustache on Obama, that was a radical, and was on the opposite side of the spectrum of the liberals who just proved they will do whatever they want.

Ivysaur March 22nd, 2010 12:03 PM

Guys, remember that the parlamentary democracy we live in means that we vote our representatives and they pass the laws they think are better for the country. If majority voted for a Democrat president and a Democrat House of Representatives and a Democrat Senate, they have the legitimity to pass any Democrat bill they want. The majority show what they want in elections. So there is nothing wrong there.

Millions of people all over the world, America included, protested against the Iraq war, the Congress approved it, and you see how it ended.

Quote:

If there was one thing that really angered me about this whole process, it was that I, as a conservative, have been personally attacked and accused of not wanting reform and wanting people to die.
I think the same exact thing has been said about Democrats, except without the "not". When it comes down to calling Obama a nazi, something's pretty wrong out there.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 12:08 PM

We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.

.Gamer March 22nd, 2010 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattysaurus (Post 5644069)

What do they mean by this?
After reading everyone's posts, I'm starting to not believe I will get the helpful insurance I need. I haven't had health insurance my whole life. I thought this would really help my family. But seeing what you guys are putting out on the table, I'm starting to doubt this. I really don't know what to think about it anymore. I'm gonna keep up with this thread so I can learn more about it. :/


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattysaurus' Age
Age: 14

=/

Somehow, I feel like you have four years before you have to even start worrying about healtchare or anything like that.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644141)
We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.


Please stop posting. We never won, we still have troops there. I being semi-republican do not like the war in Iraq, seemed like a dumb thing imo, even tough Saddam was a terrible person.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Went (Post 5644119)
Guys, remember that the parlamentary democracy we live in means that we vote our representatives and they pass the laws they think are better for the country. If majority voted for a Democrat president and a Democrat House of Representatives and a Democrat Senate, they have the legitimity to pass any Democrat bill they want. The majority show what they want in elections. So there is nothing wrong there.

Millions of people all over the world, America included, protested against the Iraq war, the Congress approved it, and you see how it ended.



I think the same exact thing has been said about Democrats, except without the "not". When it comes down to calling Obama a nazi, something's pretty wrong out there.

1. There's nothing wrong about passing a bill, it's the process by which they did it that was corrupt and wrong.

2. Let's stay on topic. The Iraq War is a totally different deal.

3. Don't forget that there was more to fascism than just the eugenics and the Holocaust. As a conservative I can tell you from personal experience that the protesters who use such signs are trying to point out that our President is trying to run a government similar to the fascist government Hitler and Mussolini proposed, not that he is a genocidal totalitarian maniac. The parallels between this administration and the governmental theories and practices of fascism can be argued for strongly on an academic level. Check out a book called Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg to see what I mean.

Again, they're not trying to call the President a mass-murderer, they are merely trying to say that the governmental principles of fascism are what Obama supports. I think they could have used a more respectful method to go about it, though.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 12:17 PM

.Gamer, we have troops in Europe, Korea, the Phillippines, and many other locations around the world. And you have to agree that terrorist insurgents need to be put down so they don't come here or elsewhere.

Ivysaur March 22nd, 2010 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644141)
We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.

So that means that you think the Congress did the right thing starting the war despite the protests. But you don't think it's not democratically right that they passed the health care bill despite the protests?

(I'd make a comment about how there was a civil war in Iraq for years that caused millions of deaths, including thousands of American soldiers, and no mass-destruction weapons and little Al Qaeda members, if any, were found there, despite wasting billions of $, but that's another topic).

@ Prince_of_Light: Corupt process? Do you mind explaining?

And I still think that Obama has little to do with fascism, since he's way more libreal that any European leader, and we don't get called "fascist", that I know of :\

Anti March 22nd, 2010 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644099)
Bold=just plain wrong.


Representative government=they do what the majority of the people want.
And the government doesn't have the right to force what they've rammed through onto the people.

Kindly tell me where in the Constitution it says that Congressmen have to do what their constituents want them to do. They get their power from the people who elect them. Then it is entirely up to their judgment. >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644099)
As for the guy with the Hitler mustache on Obama, that was a radical, and was on the opposite side of the spectrum of the liberals who just proved they will do whatever they want.

...What? This isn't a liberals vs. conservatives issue. This is a "Barack Obama cannot be compared to Adolf Hitler" issue.

As for the liberals who "will do whatever they want," the Democrats sure don't get a lot done for supposedly having dictatorial tendencies. lol.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 12:23 PM

Anti: Debating with you will clearly waste my time. You must not understand "representative government".

Went: We had more reasons besides WMDs to enter Iraq. Ignoring Hussein's existence, that was coming off 9/11. We though al-Qaeda was there. We went into Afghanistan, didn't we?
When it comes to war, nobody protested when we entered WWII after Pearl Harbor. Iraq....Iraq is gray for me. But we won, now we're just doing clean up, more or less.

zhfac March 22nd, 2010 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644141)
We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.

Haha, you're joking right?

Also, to the people bashing the Canadian health system, what's exactly wrong with free health care? I know it has it's downfalls (not everything is covered), but it's kinda hard to complain about something that's free.

Ayselipera March 22nd, 2010 12:24 PM

I'm just glad we're finally moving the health care situation along. At least it's getting somewhere even if it's going to take a few years for some of the new changes to take effect.

I'll just leave it at that.

Timbjerr March 22nd, 2010 12:26 PM

I can definitely see the good in this, and I can also definitely see the bad in this. We get government healthcare at the expense of huge taxes imposed on small businesses...because the first step to fixing the economy is crippling almost half of the businesses in the country. At least the thousands of people that will inevitably be laid off will have healthcare. XD

I don't claim to be a very politically aware guy, and I'm often called an anarchist, so please educate me if I overgeneralized in this post. :P

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Went (Post 5644185)


So that means that you think the Congress did the right thing starting the war despite the protests. But you don't think it's not democratically right that they passed the health care bill despite the protests?

(I'd make a comment about how there was a civil war in Iraq for years that caused millions of deaths, including thousands of American soldiers, and no mass-destruction weapons and little Al Qaeda members, if any, were found there, despite wasting billions of $, but that's another topic).

@ Prince_of_Light: Corupt process? Do you mind explaining?

And I still think that Obama has little to do with fascism, since he's way more libreal that any European leader, and we don't get called "fascist", that I know of :\

That's why I want you to read the book, friend. Conservatives have been mislabeled with fascism for years on end when the fascists were just as tyrannical as the communists were, and just as much of a government-seize-all state. Liberals may not all be fascists themselves, but a lot of the ways socialists see things are how the fascists saw them back in the 30's. As a matter of fact, Mussolini and Hitler were both revered by the American progressives back in the 20's and 30's if you look at news stories and articles written by Progressives in the press.

The corrupt process has to do with both the Republicans and the press being shut out while the Democrats crafted deals and arm-twisted their less dedicated members. Not to mention the Slaughter solution. That would have totally raped the constitution and the dems were completely ready to go along with it if they needed to. Not to mention all the sweetheart deals present in the Senate bill such as the cornhusker kickback and the louisiana purchase (which still remain since it was the senate bill that was passed, by the way). Outright bribery for votes. And on top of that, if they needed to bribe others they were ready to put forward unused stimulus bill money forward to pay for the bribes as a slush fund!

SBaby March 22nd, 2010 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5644241)
The corrupt process has to do with both the Republicans and the press being shut out while the Democrats crafted deals and arm-twisted their less dedicated members. Not to mention the Slaughter solution. That would have totally raped the constitution and the dems were completely ready to go along with it if they needed to. Not to mention all the sweetheart deals present in the Senate bill such as the cornhusker kickback and the louisiana purchase (which still remain since it was the senate bill that was passed, by the way).

It boils down to this. By 2013, anyone that hasn't bought health insurance (yes, BOUGHT insurance) will be fined $350 per year, and that amount will increase to $750 per year in 2016. That's average Americans, not big nusinesses. So no, the insurance cost isn't going away. And in the coming months, when this starts to become more and more clear, and the true nature of the bill begins to reveal itself, we're going to learn the hard way what this all really means.

But worse yet, the President and the Democratic party outright betrayed the American people. And that won't go over well, regardless of where they think they stand and regardless of how much they try to rationalize what they've done. Delusions of grandeur don't magically change the way the American people think.

In response to anything else, all I can say is, we'll see what happens in November when the TV ads start reminding people about all this.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBaby (Post 5644298)
It boils down to this. By 2013, anyone that hasn't bought health insurance (yes, BOUGHT insurance) will be fined $350 per year, and that amount will increase to $750 per year in 2016. That's average Americans, not big nusinesses. So no, the insurance cost isn't going away. And in the coming months, when this starts to become more and more clear, and the true nature of the bill begins to reveal itself, we're going to learn the hard way what this all really means.

But worse yet, the President and the Democratic party outright betrayed the American people. And that won't go over well, regardless of where they think they stand. Delusions of grandeur don't magically change the way people think.

There are polls out now saying that 75% of the people disapprove of Congress. they're all going to be wiped out in November. =/

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 12:49 PM

I think you're mislabling Conservatives with small government Economic Libertarians my friend.

Anyways, I am quite glad this bill passed. It might be crappy, but it just shows the glacial pace our Legislative system works. Seriously, most Republican ideas (back in '94 anyways) is incorporated into the bill.

And due to the fact that nobody here would even WANT to discuss single-payer or the Wyden-Bennett bill it's no use discussing procedure. The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage.

SBaby March 22nd, 2010 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5644314)
There are polls out now saying that 75% of the people disapprove of Congress. they're all going to be wiped out in November. =/

Yep. And now they're already talking about repealing it. Didn't take very long, did it?

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBaby (Post 5644328)
Yep. And now they're already talking about repeals. Didn't take it long, did it?

Yeah, yeah. We all talked about repealing Medicare PART D. Where did THAT movement go? >___>

Seriously, polls reflect current mood. once this bill is implemented, things should work a bit better.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 5644341)


Yeah, yeah. We all talked about repealing Medicare PART D. Where did THAT movement go? >___>

Seriously, polls reflect current mood. once this bill is implemented, things should work a bit better.

Sure, and I'll win $1 million tomorrow.

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644099)
Bold=just plain wrong.

No it is not.

I think the important thing here is that it passed. No need to make it into a debate, because frankly, people who are for it don't care about debating it.

Why?

Because it passed.

So suck it.

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644362)
Sure, and I'll win $1 million tomorrow.

Yeah, because the fact that being unemployed in this country means I'll get bankrupt due to a sickness is better than the legislation just passed.

Heck we're giving millions to the insurance industry. GET OVER IT.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 5644327)
I think you're mislabling Conservatives with small government Economic Libertarians my friend.

Anyways, I am quite glad this bill passed. It might be crappy, but it just shows the glacial pace our Legislative system works. Seriously, most Republican ideas (back in '94 anyways) is incorporated into the bill.

And due to the fact that nobody here would even WANT to discuss single-payer or the Wyden-Bennett bill it's no use discussing procedure. The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage.

I am not. Brush up on your research. =) The Right that is leading this movement wants nothing to do with the tyranny of either socialism or fascism. One of my favorite authors, W. Cleon Skousen, made a diagram that took a new perspective on "left" and "right", and why such left-right is obsolete.

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
^ TYRANNY (fascism, socialism, __________________________________ ^ PEOPLE'S RULE ____________________________________________ ANARCHY ^
___________oppressive monarchy)_______________________________(American federalism + ________________________________________(no government
______________________________________________________________our Constitution) _____________________________________________and chaos)

Sorry about the underscores, that was the only way I could figure out how to format it right.

I, and the other conservatives, support the People's rule. Not tyranny.

Secondly, the biggest Republican idea wasn't implemented at all. If all we needed to do was: "The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage." Then why do we need 2,400 pages to do it? Something smells very fishy to me, and I have good reason to believe there is based on what I stated in my earlier post about corrupt procedure.

On a side note, Obama has been quoted in the past as supporting a single-payer system. What makes you think his views have changed since then? Not to mention he has been insisting in his latest speeches that this is just "one gradual step toward true health care reform." I believe he still wants single-payer.

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 2:28 PM

• Pre-existing conditions... gone!
• Dependent care... extended until the age of 26!
• Lifetime caps on coverage... gone!
• Dropped from coverage because you got sick... over!
• 32 million people who don't have coverage... covered!
• Seniors who are impacted by the Medicare "donut hole"... donut hole closed!
• 40,000 people who die on average every single year because they don't have insurance... saved!

However, despite this momentous occasion, you had better believe that those who oppose this legislation will begin a fear campaign of the likes that you have never seen. The worst thing that could have happened to the GOP was for President Obama to obtain this victory. Now, because they positioned themselves as obstructionists, and called the President every name in the book from socialist to communist, they eliminated the possibility from voting with the bill. Doing this left them with no other choice but to continue the strategy of scaring the hell out of the American people before the next political election seasons of 2010 and 2012 in order to obtain a political victory. By not participating in this historic moment the GOP has proven that they are more concerned with self-preservation than trying to improve the conditions of the country.

So here are some of the arguments and counterpoints that you can expect to hear:

Fear Based Argument - "Barack Obama and the Democratic Party are moving this nation to a socialist state!"
Response - Socialism is the theory advocating the state ownership of an industry or an economic system based on state ownership of capital. In fact, as far as health care is concerned the Government owns nothing. They only want to regulate it more to make sure that people don't die!

Fear Based Argument - "Barack Obama and the Democrats rammed this bill down our throats."
Response - We have been debating this bill for decades and the Republicans have never shown any interest in doing anything but keeping things the same. The same isn't working because costs keep rising and people keep dying. Just like a child who has a toy and hasn't played with it in weeks... let his friend have an interest in the toy and the child starts to cry, "Gimmie my toy!" GOP you had your turn to play with health care, you didn't want to play with it and you let costs continue to skyrocket while people died... it's the Democrats turn now!

Fear Based Argument - "This will spell political destruction for the Democratic party if you push this through!"
Response - The people voted Barack Obama into office to push this through. They only are upset with him because he took too long in pushing it through.

Fear Based Argument - "The people are against this legislation!"
Response - The people are highly in favor or health care reform. Barack Obama won on a campaign of promising a STRONGER health care legislation and that is the reason that they are against it. They want the public option which was taken out but promised in the campaign and they don't want mandates which Barack stated in his campaign he wasn't for. However, despite the fact that the people wanted a stronger bill, this bill as it stands is infinitely better than nothing at all because we now have a framework which we can build.

Fear Based Argument - "Obama and the Democrats want to kill Grandma!"
Response - End of life discussions with your doctor actually empower you to provide your doctor with information so that in case you are ever in a condition where you can't make these decisions for yourself (you are in a coma or vegetative state) your doctor will know exactly those wishes that YOU want to carry out pertaining to your life. Here is a previous blog that I wrote that elaborates on this fear based point.

Fear Based Argument - "The Democrats want to spend, spend, and spend so our children are saddled with heavy mountains of debt!"
Response - This bill is not only paid for, but it reduces the deficit according to the Congressional Budget Office by $140 billion in the first 10 years and by over $1.2 trillion in the following 10 years. For some reason you don't trust the CBO whenever they produce numbers that disprove your point and call them liars, but you cite them whenever they help to prove your point. Which is it? Are they reliable or liars?
Furthermore, let's just say that this legislation was not funded as the multiple legislations passed under a Republican legislation such as the Medicare prescription drug plan, the tax cuts, and the two wars... there is no dollar value on the value of the almost 50,000 lives that will be spared per year, and millions whose lives will be improved because they now have health care coverage.

Fear Based Argument - "This is a Government takeover!"
Response - I thought that a Government takeover required the Government to actually take something over?! The hospitals will still be private, the doctors will still be private, and the Government will not collect ANY funds. For this to be a Government takeover, they sure did a poor job of taking over the health insurance industry.
The GOP is the most effective marketing machine that you will ever come across. Their first priority is to get re-elected and they will stop at no cost to achieve that goal. Although the Democrats are enjoying this victory, we have to be aware of those on the right that will be giving an onslaught of rhetoric that can be very destructive to the party in November. They wake up with the same talking points and you can be sure that those talking points will be plastered on every news channel. Fake grass roots organizations like "Freedom Works", funded by Dick Armey, will continue to spread the message on a massive scale to hundreds of thousands across the country. We can't rest on our laurels thinking that we have done enough because policy is on our side. We have to combat this evil rhetoric not with evil, but with truth, facts, and a hell of a lot of noise! It is NOT ENOUGH to yell at the TV to create change. We have to arm ourselves with truth and become as active as they are. The political success of the left depends upon it.

Hi.

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 2:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5644373)
I am not. Brush up on your research. =) The Right that is leading this movement wants nothing to do with the tyranny of either socialism or fascism. One of my favorite authors, W. Cleon Skousen, made a diagram that took a new perspective on "left" and "right", and why such left-right is obsolete.

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
^ TYRANNY (fascism, socialism, __________________________________ ^ PEOPLE'S RULE ____________________________________________ ANARCHY ^
___________oppressive monarchy)_______________________________(American federalism + ________________________________________(no government
______________________________________________________________our Constitution) _____________________________________________and chaos)

Sorry about the underscores, that was the only way I could figure out how to format it right.

I, and the other conservatives, support the People's rule. Not tyranny.

Secondly, the biggest Republican idea wasn't implemented at all. If all we needed to do was: "The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage." Then why do we need 2,400 pages to do it? Something smells very fishy to me, and I have good reason to believe there is based on what I stated in my earlier post about corrupt procedure.

On a side note, Obama has been quoted in the past as supporting a single-payer system. What makes you think his views have changed since then? Not to mention he has been insisting in his latest speeches that this is just "one gradual step toward true health care reform." I believe he still wants single-payer.

"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 5644436)


"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.

I don't have Skousen's book in front of me, but he spoke to your point after the diagram was set up. I figured it needed more explanation. I believe he said something to the effect that the people's rule is defined as giving the people the power to define their government, while not giving each individual so much power that there can be no order. Secondly, our system of federalism is the best out there, when the constitution is actually being followed. What do you think all the other nations modeled their constitutions after? Thin air? No, ours was the first. Ours drew from Greek, Roman, and British roots. Thereafter, the other nations began to emulate us. Also, I'm aware that other governments achieve this effect. I just put American federalism so you would get the jist of what I meant.

.Gamer March 22nd, 2010 2:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 5644436)

"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.


I <3 you Netto. lolGlenn Beck.

As much as I am concerned about the possible repurcussions (for or against the bill, you must admit, it has the potnetial to go wrong) I have to agree with the people's rule part. Its true. Its the most dynamic aspect of our governmental system, and thus causes some swinging changes in public views, sometimes, public opinion shifts radically and other times it is a gradual process, this just happens to be one of those radical shifts in public opinion, it will most likely be brought up for repeal in the near future.

Fur Elise March 22nd, 2010 3:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti (Post 5644193)
Kindly tell me where in the Constitution it says that Congressmen have to do what their constituents want them to do. They get their power from the people who elect them. Then it is entirely up to their judgment. >_>



...What? This isn't a liberals vs. conservatives issue. This is a "Barack Obama cannot be compared to Adolf Hitler" issue.

As for the liberals who "will do whatever they want," the Democrats sure don't get a lot done for supposedly having dictatorial tendencies. lol.

the representetives(sp) are voted to represent their state and people. The represent our views and beliefs, well supposed to.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 3:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fur Elise (Post 5644542)
the representetives(sp) are voted to represent their state and people. The represent our views and beliefs, well supposed to.

The argument the person you quoted just made basically amounts to the candidate lying on the campaign about what they stand for, getting elected, then revealing themselves to have a completely different ideology than what they ran on, screwing their constituents over completely. And apparently they must think it's ok for that to happen because the will of the people supposedly only matters in the voting booth. If he read anything of the Federalist Papers he would know that that is exactly what legislators were intended to do, VOTE WITH THEIR CONSTITUENTS' OPINION.

NikoBelic999 March 22nd, 2010 3:24 PM

This is a BAD thing.....

Our Taxes will go up about 20%, and the ELDERLY PEOPLE and MEDICARE, are so screwed, Elderly prescriptions that were half cheap will skyrocket, THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 3:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikoBelic999 (Post 5644596)
This is a BAD thing.....

Our Taxes will go up about 20%, and the ELDERLY PEOPLE and MEDICARE, are so screwed, Elderly prescriptions that were half cheap will skyrocket, THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING.

THANK YOU SIR.

Put it very simply. =P

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 3:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikoBelic999 (Post 5644596)
This is a BAD thing.....

Our Taxes will go up about 20%, and the ELDERLY PEOPLE and MEDICARE, are so screwed, Elderly prescriptions that were half cheap will skyrocket, THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5644602)
THANK YOU SIR.

Put it very simply. =P

You both have no idea what you are talking about. Go read my last post here. :|

NarutoActor March 22nd, 2010 3:32 PM

This is not a good thing. Health care will bankrupt America, and no republicans voted for it. What ever happened to by bipartisanship obamma promised.

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 3:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NarutoActor (Post 5644616)
This is not a good thing. Health care will bankrupt America, and no republicans voted for it. What ever happened to by bipartisanship obamma promised.

Again, stop being stupid. Read my last post. :|

NikoBelic999 March 22nd, 2010 3:33 PM

We DO Have an Idea, Ever since I have read the bible, it does say that if Health Care Passes, and stuff like that, TAKING US OVER, will cause 1 government, one leader, one dictator, and OBAMA is trying to do this, HEALTH CARE IS A BAD THING.

If you want higher taxes, higher prescriptions prices, elderly and medicare screwed, GO AHEAD LIKE IT....

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 3:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NarutoActor (Post 5644616)
This is not a good thing. Health care will bankrupt America, and no republicans voted for it. What ever happened to by bipartisanship obamma promised.

The bipartisanship was on the "NO" side of the vote.

http://www.worldbuzznow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Health-Care-Vote-Count-Results-Health-Care-Bill-gets-Yes-300x226.jpg

EDIT: Whoops, that's from the 2009 vote. If I can find an image of the Sunday vote I will post it.

NarutoActor March 22nd, 2010 3:36 PM

Congrats but what you wrote did not answer my questions slash my points. No republican support. Also this bill will be payed for during the next 10 years but only covering 5 years of medical support.

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 3:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikoBelic999 (Post 5644621)
We DO Have an Idea, Ever since I have read the bible, it does say that if Health Care Passes, and stuff like that, TAKING US OVER, will cause 1 government, one leader, one dictator, and OBAMA is trying to do this, HEALTH CARE IS A BAD THING.

If you want higher taxes, higher prescriptions prices, elderly and medicare screwed, GO AHEAD LIKE IT....

Okay, you're obviously one of those completely idiotic republicans who don't even study what they are talking about. They just pull stuff out of their butt and say it's the truth. You're completely wrong. You're just a troll. Welcome to the ignore list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NarutoActor (Post 5644637)
Congrats but what you wrote did not answer my questions slash my points. No republican support. Also this bill will be payed for during the next 10 years but only covering 5 years of medical support.

It answered everything. You're probably just to dim to comprehend it. Welcome to the ignore list.

Well, these two posts by you guys are the exact reason why no one here respects either of you. :]

NikoBelic999 March 22nd, 2010 3:39 PM

All I have to say to these People who want health care reform is that Go ahead and believe in it, when you are stuck in an unemployment office, needing to pay taxes, family, AND bills, they wont give you all of the money, taxes WILL be higher, dont complain.

When your parents or grandparents are dieing because they cant afford meds, dont complain here.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 3:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .little monster (Post 5644641)
Okay, you're obviously one of those completely idiotic republicans who don't even study what they are talking about. They just pull stuff out of their butt and say it's the truth. You're completely wrong. You're just a troll. Welcome to the ignore list.



It answered everything. You're probably just to dim to comprehend it. Welcome to the ignore list.

Well, these two posts by you guys are the exact reason why no one here respects either of you. :]

Who exactly is insulting who here, sir? I would say you are the troll.

NarutoActor March 22nd, 2010 3:40 PM

demeaning someone dose not prove your point. It was not there, so just make a rebuttal.

.Gamer March 22nd, 2010 3:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikoBelic999 (Post 5644621)
We DO Have an Idea, Ever since I have read the bible, it does say that if Health Care Passes, and stuff like that, TAKING US OVER, will cause 1 government, one leader, one dictator, and OBAMA is trying to do this, HEALTH CARE IS A BAD THING.

If you want higher taxes, higher prescriptions prices, elderly and medicare screwed, GO AHEAD LIKE IT....


Could you please type in english please? kthx

Quote:

If he read anything of the Federalist Papers he would know that that is exactly what legislators were intended to do, VOTE WITH THEIR CONSTITUENTS' OPINION.
=/= Constitution. ~___~

Look out for the Dehttp://tommychristopher.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/death_panel1.jpgth Panels!

I think people are really blowing this out of proportion, but its not like the world is gonna blow up or anything I mean sheesh.

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 3:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5644648)
Who exactly is insulting who here, sir? I would say you are the troll.

Being a troll has nothing to do with calling people who are idiots idiots. And I never said I wasn't a troll, and on top of that, me being one doesn't negate the fact that he is one. kthxbai

LOL I bet you don't know what that means.

Health Care Reform passed. Get over it.

NikoBelic999 March 22nd, 2010 3:44 PM

Meh Im outta here, you democrats wanting health care reform are stupid.....

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 3:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .little monster (Post 5644657)
Being a troll has nothing to do with calling people who are idiots idiots. And I never said I wasn't a troll, and on top of that, me being one doesn't negate the fact that he is one. kthxbai

LOL I bet you don't know what that means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokeCommunity Rules
Everybody is to respect other people on the board.
Do not flame, bash or insult other people. If someone acts uncivil, or harasses/intimidates you, you are not given the excuse to act the same in retaliation.

fillerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr moar filler

Also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by .Gamer (Post 5644655)
=/= Constitution. ~___~

They do not equal the Constitution, but they do give a good deal of insight about what the Founders wanted us to do with it.

NikoBelic999 March 22nd, 2010 3:45 PM

@Prince of light: At least some people has some brains here...

NarutoActor March 22nd, 2010 3:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .little monster (Post 5644657)
Being a troll has nothing to do with calling people who are idiots idiots. And I never said I wasn't a troll, and on top of that, me being one doesn't negate the fact that he is one. kthxbai

LOL I bet you don't know what that means.

Health Care Reform passed. Get over it.

This is just one lost, the real battle has just begone.

NarutoActor>respect then little monster. I don't call people idiots just because I don't agree with them. The person that dose that is the true idiot. If you can't prove that anyone is an idiot, then you shouldn't say it. Show some facts and make your self seem logical; not the other way around.

Luck March 22nd, 2010 3:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikoBelic999 (Post 5644665)
Meh Im outta here, you democrats wanting health care reform are stupid.....

Because we were much better with our older health care system?
I'm not saying this is a perfect bill(far from it), but it is in many ways superior. Of course people will have to pay more taxes, but does it matter if it's for the greater good?(Completely hypothetical situation here, let's just assume it's for the greater good)
Also, is it stupidity or just pure laziness to stretch your finger and press the apostrophe so "I" and "m" can have some space?

BTW, if MOTY ever happens, you get my vote as most entertaining member ;D


I can see this snowballing into a flame war, but it's not like I can do anything about it D:

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 3:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck (Post 5644684)
Because we were much better with our older health care system?
Also, is it stupidity or just pure laziness to stretch your finger and press the apostrophe so "I" and "m" can have some space?

BTW, if MOTY ever happens, you get my vote as most entertaining member ;D


I can see this snowballing into a flame war, but it's not like I can do anything about it D:

Relax, man. If he doesn't want to use apostrophes he doesn't have to. Just because some of us like to use proper grammar even leisurely doesn't mean everyone else has to. It's not like he's writing a term paper or something. =/ Plus, it's a free country. (but maybe not for long...)

NikoBelic999 March 22nd, 2010 3:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck (Post 5644684)
Because we were much better with our older health care system?
I'm not saying this is a perfect bill(far from it), but it is in many ways superior. Of course people will have to pay more taxes, but does it matter if it's for the greater good?(Completely hypothetical situation here, let's just assume it's for the greater good)
Also, is it stupidity or just pure laziness to stretch your finger and press the apostrophe so "I" and "m" can have some space?

BTW, if MOTY ever happens, you get my vote as most entertaining member ;D


I can see this snowballing into a flame war, but it's not like I can do anything about it D:

IT IS NOT FOR THE GREATER GOOD! EVERYBODY WILL BE SCREWED....Democrats suck.....

Simmons_2.0 March 22nd, 2010 3:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck (Post 5644684)
Because we were much better with our older health care system?
I'm not saying this is a perfect bill(far from it), but it is in many ways superior. Of course people will have to pay more taxes, but does it matter if it's for the greater good?(Completely hypothetical situation here, let's just assume it's for the greater good)
Also, is it stupidity or just pure laziness to stretch your finger and press the apostrophe so "I" and "m" can have some space?

BTW, if MOTY ever happens, you get my vote as most entertaining member ;D


I can see this snowballing into a flame war, but it's not like I can do anything about it D:

Our Old health care may not have been perfect (Pre existing conditions ftl) but it was better than this bill, take a look at what's in it.

Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans.. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE GOVERNMENT?!?)

Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.)

Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.

Page 429 Lines 1-9: An "advanced-care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates.

Page 354 Sec 1177: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special needs people

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 3:55 PM

^ All false or bent so much you made it false. Paying for something doesn't mean they are involved in it, stoopid.

If I give you 20 dollars to put gas in your car, does that mean I own 20 dollars of your car? No. Exactly. So stfu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikoBelic999 (Post 5644696)
IT IS NOT FOR THE GREATER GOOD! EVERYBODY WILL BE SCREWED....Democrats suck.....

I thought you were leaving?

Don't lie now. You know, like every other republican does?

Lying is a sin. ;_;


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