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-   -   CONGRATS! US HEALTHCARE REFORM PASSES! (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=211774)

Ivysaur March 22nd, 2010 12:03 PM

Guys, remember that the parlamentary democracy we live in means that we vote our representatives and they pass the laws they think are better for the country. If majority voted for a Democrat president and a Democrat House of Representatives and a Democrat Senate, they have the legitimity to pass any Democrat bill they want. The majority show what they want in elections. So there is nothing wrong there.

Millions of people all over the world, America included, protested against the Iraq war, the Congress approved it, and you see how it ended.

Quote:

If there was one thing that really angered me about this whole process, it was that I, as a conservative, have been personally attacked and accused of not wanting reform and wanting people to die.
I think the same exact thing has been said about Democrats, except without the "not". When it comes down to calling Obama a nazi, something's pretty wrong out there.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 12:08 PM

We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.

.Gamer March 22nd, 2010 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattysaurus (Post 5644069)

What do they mean by this?
After reading everyone's posts, I'm starting to not believe I will get the helpful insurance I need. I haven't had health insurance my whole life. I thought this would really help my family. But seeing what you guys are putting out on the table, I'm starting to doubt this. I really don't know what to think about it anymore. I'm gonna keep up with this thread so I can learn more about it. :/


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattysaurus' Age
Age: 14

=/

Somehow, I feel like you have four years before you have to even start worrying about healtchare or anything like that.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644141)
We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.


Please stop posting. We never won, we still have troops there. I being semi-republican do not like the war in Iraq, seemed like a dumb thing imo, even tough Saddam was a terrible person.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Went (Post 5644119)
Guys, remember that the parlamentary democracy we live in means that we vote our representatives and they pass the laws they think are better for the country. If majority voted for a Democrat president and a Democrat House of Representatives and a Democrat Senate, they have the legitimity to pass any Democrat bill they want. The majority show what they want in elections. So there is nothing wrong there.

Millions of people all over the world, America included, protested against the Iraq war, the Congress approved it, and you see how it ended.



I think the same exact thing has been said about Democrats, except without the "not". When it comes down to calling Obama a nazi, something's pretty wrong out there.

1. There's nothing wrong about passing a bill, it's the process by which they did it that was corrupt and wrong.

2. Let's stay on topic. The Iraq War is a totally different deal.

3. Don't forget that there was more to fascism than just the eugenics and the Holocaust. As a conservative I can tell you from personal experience that the protesters who use such signs are trying to point out that our President is trying to run a government similar to the fascist government Hitler and Mussolini proposed, not that he is a genocidal totalitarian maniac. The parallels between this administration and the governmental theories and practices of fascism can be argued for strongly on an academic level. Check out a book called Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg to see what I mean.

Again, they're not trying to call the President a mass-murderer, they are merely trying to say that the governmental principles of fascism are what Obama supports. I think they could have used a more respectful method to go about it, though.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 12:17 PM

.Gamer, we have troops in Europe, Korea, the Phillippines, and many other locations around the world. And you have to agree that terrorist insurgents need to be put down so they don't come here or elsewhere.

Ivysaur March 22nd, 2010 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644141)
We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.

So that means that you think the Congress did the right thing starting the war despite the protests. But you don't think it's not democratically right that they passed the health care bill despite the protests?

(I'd make a comment about how there was a civil war in Iraq for years that caused millions of deaths, including thousands of American soldiers, and no mass-destruction weapons and little Al Qaeda members, if any, were found there, despite wasting billions of $, but that's another topic).

@ Prince_of_Light: Corupt process? Do you mind explaining?

And I still think that Obama has little to do with fascism, since he's way more libreal that any European leader, and we don't get called "fascist", that I know of :\

Anti March 22nd, 2010 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644099)
Bold=just plain wrong.


Representative government=they do what the majority of the people want.
And the government doesn't have the right to force what they've rammed through onto the people.

Kindly tell me where in the Constitution it says that Congressmen have to do what their constituents want them to do. They get their power from the people who elect them. Then it is entirely up to their judgment. >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644099)
As for the guy with the Hitler mustache on Obama, that was a radical, and was on the opposite side of the spectrum of the liberals who just proved they will do whatever they want.

...What? This isn't a liberals vs. conservatives issue. This is a "Barack Obama cannot be compared to Adolf Hitler" issue.

As for the liberals who "will do whatever they want," the Democrats sure don't get a lot done for supposedly having dictatorial tendencies. lol.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 12:23 PM

Anti: Debating with you will clearly waste my time. You must not understand "representative government".

Went: We had more reasons besides WMDs to enter Iraq. Ignoring Hussein's existence, that was coming off 9/11. We though al-Qaeda was there. We went into Afghanistan, didn't we?
When it comes to war, nobody protested when we entered WWII after Pearl Harbor. Iraq....Iraq is gray for me. But we won, now we're just doing clean up, more or less.

zhfac March 22nd, 2010 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644141)
We won the Iraq war. Nuff said.

Haha, you're joking right?

Also, to the people bashing the Canadian health system, what's exactly wrong with free health care? I know it has it's downfalls (not everything is covered), but it's kinda hard to complain about something that's free.

Ayselipera March 22nd, 2010 12:24 PM

I'm just glad we're finally moving the health care situation along. At least it's getting somewhere even if it's going to take a few years for some of the new changes to take effect.

I'll just leave it at that.

Timbjerr March 22nd, 2010 12:26 PM

I can definitely see the good in this, and I can also definitely see the bad in this. We get government healthcare at the expense of huge taxes imposed on small businesses...because the first step to fixing the economy is crippling almost half of the businesses in the country. At least the thousands of people that will inevitably be laid off will have healthcare. XD

I don't claim to be a very politically aware guy, and I'm often called an anarchist, so please educate me if I overgeneralized in this post. :P

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Went (Post 5644185)


So that means that you think the Congress did the right thing starting the war despite the protests. But you don't think it's not democratically right that they passed the health care bill despite the protests?

(I'd make a comment about how there was a civil war in Iraq for years that caused millions of deaths, including thousands of American soldiers, and no mass-destruction weapons and little Al Qaeda members, if any, were found there, despite wasting billions of $, but that's another topic).

@ Prince_of_Light: Corupt process? Do you mind explaining?

And I still think that Obama has little to do with fascism, since he's way more libreal that any European leader, and we don't get called "fascist", that I know of :\

That's why I want you to read the book, friend. Conservatives have been mislabeled with fascism for years on end when the fascists were just as tyrannical as the communists were, and just as much of a government-seize-all state. Liberals may not all be fascists themselves, but a lot of the ways socialists see things are how the fascists saw them back in the 30's. As a matter of fact, Mussolini and Hitler were both revered by the American progressives back in the 20's and 30's if you look at news stories and articles written by Progressives in the press.

The corrupt process has to do with both the Republicans and the press being shut out while the Democrats crafted deals and arm-twisted their less dedicated members. Not to mention the Slaughter solution. That would have totally raped the constitution and the dems were completely ready to go along with it if they needed to. Not to mention all the sweetheart deals present in the Senate bill such as the cornhusker kickback and the louisiana purchase (which still remain since it was the senate bill that was passed, by the way). Outright bribery for votes. And on top of that, if they needed to bribe others they were ready to put forward unused stimulus bill money forward to pay for the bribes as a slush fund!

SBaby March 22nd, 2010 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5644241)
The corrupt process has to do with both the Republicans and the press being shut out while the Democrats crafted deals and arm-twisted their less dedicated members. Not to mention the Slaughter solution. That would have totally raped the constitution and the dems were completely ready to go along with it if they needed to. Not to mention all the sweetheart deals present in the Senate bill such as the cornhusker kickback and the louisiana purchase (which still remain since it was the senate bill that was passed, by the way).

It boils down to this. By 2013, anyone that hasn't bought health insurance (yes, BOUGHT insurance) will be fined $350 per year, and that amount will increase to $750 per year in 2016. That's average Americans, not big nusinesses. So no, the insurance cost isn't going away. And in the coming months, when this starts to become more and more clear, and the true nature of the bill begins to reveal itself, we're going to learn the hard way what this all really means.

But worse yet, the President and the Democratic party outright betrayed the American people. And that won't go over well, regardless of where they think they stand and regardless of how much they try to rationalize what they've done. Delusions of grandeur don't magically change the way the American people think.

In response to anything else, all I can say is, we'll see what happens in November when the TV ads start reminding people about all this.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBaby (Post 5644298)
It boils down to this. By 2013, anyone that hasn't bought health insurance (yes, BOUGHT insurance) will be fined $350 per year, and that amount will increase to $750 per year in 2016. That's average Americans, not big nusinesses. So no, the insurance cost isn't going away. And in the coming months, when this starts to become more and more clear, and the true nature of the bill begins to reveal itself, we're going to learn the hard way what this all really means.

But worse yet, the President and the Democratic party outright betrayed the American people. And that won't go over well, regardless of where they think they stand. Delusions of grandeur don't magically change the way people think.

There are polls out now saying that 75% of the people disapprove of Congress. they're all going to be wiped out in November. =/

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 12:49 PM

I think you're mislabling Conservatives with small government Economic Libertarians my friend.

Anyways, I am quite glad this bill passed. It might be crappy, but it just shows the glacial pace our Legislative system works. Seriously, most Republican ideas (back in '94 anyways) is incorporated into the bill.

And due to the fact that nobody here would even WANT to discuss single-payer or the Wyden-Bennett bill it's no use discussing procedure. The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage.

SBaby March 22nd, 2010 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5644314)
There are polls out now saying that 75% of the people disapprove of Congress. they're all going to be wiped out in November. =/

Yep. And now they're already talking about repealing it. Didn't take very long, did it?

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBaby (Post 5644328)
Yep. And now they're already talking about repeals. Didn't take it long, did it?

Yeah, yeah. We all talked about repealing Medicare PART D. Where did THAT movement go? >___>

Seriously, polls reflect current mood. once this bill is implemented, things should work a bit better.

PokemonLeagueChamp March 22nd, 2010 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 5644341)


Yeah, yeah. We all talked about repealing Medicare PART D. Where did THAT movement go? >___>

Seriously, polls reflect current mood. once this bill is implemented, things should work a bit better.

Sure, and I'll win $1 million tomorrow.

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644099)
Bold=just plain wrong.

No it is not.

I think the important thing here is that it passed. No need to make it into a debate, because frankly, people who are for it don't care about debating it.

Why?

Because it passed.

So suck it.

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokemonleaguechamp (Post 5644362)
Sure, and I'll win $1 million tomorrow.

Yeah, because the fact that being unemployed in this country means I'll get bankrupt due to a sickness is better than the legislation just passed.

Heck we're giving millions to the insurance industry. GET OVER IT.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 5644327)
I think you're mislabling Conservatives with small government Economic Libertarians my friend.

Anyways, I am quite glad this bill passed. It might be crappy, but it just shows the glacial pace our Legislative system works. Seriously, most Republican ideas (back in '94 anyways) is incorporated into the bill.

And due to the fact that nobody here would even WANT to discuss single-payer or the Wyden-Bennett bill it's no use discussing procedure. The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage.

I am not. Brush up on your research. =) The Right that is leading this movement wants nothing to do with the tyranny of either socialism or fascism. One of my favorite authors, W. Cleon Skousen, made a diagram that took a new perspective on "left" and "right", and why such left-right is obsolete.

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
^ TYRANNY (fascism, socialism, __________________________________ ^ PEOPLE'S RULE ____________________________________________ ANARCHY ^
___________oppressive monarchy)_______________________________(American federalism + ________________________________________(no government
______________________________________________________________our Constitution) _____________________________________________and chaos)

Sorry about the underscores, that was the only way I could figure out how to format it right.

I, and the other conservatives, support the People's rule. Not tyranny.

Secondly, the biggest Republican idea wasn't implemented at all. If all we needed to do was: "The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage." Then why do we need 2,400 pages to do it? Something smells very fishy to me, and I have good reason to believe there is based on what I stated in my earlier post about corrupt procedure.

On a side note, Obama has been quoted in the past as supporting a single-payer system. What makes you think his views have changed since then? Not to mention he has been insisting in his latest speeches that this is just "one gradual step toward true health care reform." I believe he still wants single-payer.

.little monster March 22nd, 2010 2:28 PM

• Pre-existing conditions... gone!
• Dependent care... extended until the age of 26!
• Lifetime caps on coverage... gone!
• Dropped from coverage because you got sick... over!
• 32 million people who don't have coverage... covered!
• Seniors who are impacted by the Medicare "donut hole"... donut hole closed!
• 40,000 people who die on average every single year because they don't have insurance... saved!

However, despite this momentous occasion, you had better believe that those who oppose this legislation will begin a fear campaign of the likes that you have never seen. The worst thing that could have happened to the GOP was for President Obama to obtain this victory. Now, because they positioned themselves as obstructionists, and called the President every name in the book from socialist to communist, they eliminated the possibility from voting with the bill. Doing this left them with no other choice but to continue the strategy of scaring the hell out of the American people before the next political election seasons of 2010 and 2012 in order to obtain a political victory. By not participating in this historic moment the GOP has proven that they are more concerned with self-preservation than trying to improve the conditions of the country.

So here are some of the arguments and counterpoints that you can expect to hear:

Fear Based Argument - "Barack Obama and the Democratic Party are moving this nation to a socialist state!"
Response - Socialism is the theory advocating the state ownership of an industry or an economic system based on state ownership of capital. In fact, as far as health care is concerned the Government owns nothing. They only want to regulate it more to make sure that people don't die!

Fear Based Argument - "Barack Obama and the Democrats rammed this bill down our throats."
Response - We have been debating this bill for decades and the Republicans have never shown any interest in doing anything but keeping things the same. The same isn't working because costs keep rising and people keep dying. Just like a child who has a toy and hasn't played with it in weeks... let his friend have an interest in the toy and the child starts to cry, "Gimmie my toy!" GOP you had your turn to play with health care, you didn't want to play with it and you let costs continue to skyrocket while people died... it's the Democrats turn now!

Fear Based Argument - "This will spell political destruction for the Democratic party if you push this through!"
Response - The people voted Barack Obama into office to push this through. They only are upset with him because he took too long in pushing it through.

Fear Based Argument - "The people are against this legislation!"
Response - The people are highly in favor or health care reform. Barack Obama won on a campaign of promising a STRONGER health care legislation and that is the reason that they are against it. They want the public option which was taken out but promised in the campaign and they don't want mandates which Barack stated in his campaign he wasn't for. However, despite the fact that the people wanted a stronger bill, this bill as it stands is infinitely better than nothing at all because we now have a framework which we can build.

Fear Based Argument - "Obama and the Democrats want to kill Grandma!"
Response - End of life discussions with your doctor actually empower you to provide your doctor with information so that in case you are ever in a condition where you can't make these decisions for yourself (you are in a coma or vegetative state) your doctor will know exactly those wishes that YOU want to carry out pertaining to your life. Here is a previous blog that I wrote that elaborates on this fear based point.

Fear Based Argument - "The Democrats want to spend, spend, and spend so our children are saddled with heavy mountains of debt!"
Response - This bill is not only paid for, but it reduces the deficit according to the Congressional Budget Office by $140 billion in the first 10 years and by over $1.2 trillion in the following 10 years. For some reason you don't trust the CBO whenever they produce numbers that disprove your point and call them liars, but you cite them whenever they help to prove your point. Which is it? Are they reliable or liars?
Furthermore, let's just say that this legislation was not funded as the multiple legislations passed under a Republican legislation such as the Medicare prescription drug plan, the tax cuts, and the two wars... there is no dollar value on the value of the almost 50,000 lives that will be spared per year, and millions whose lives will be improved because they now have health care coverage.

Fear Based Argument - "This is a Government takeover!"
Response - I thought that a Government takeover required the Government to actually take something over?! The hospitals will still be private, the doctors will still be private, and the Government will not collect ANY funds. For this to be a Government takeover, they sure did a poor job of taking over the health insurance industry.
The GOP is the most effective marketing machine that you will ever come across. Their first priority is to get re-elected and they will stop at no cost to achieve that goal. Although the Democrats are enjoying this victory, we have to be aware of those on the right that will be giving an onslaught of rhetoric that can be very destructive to the party in November. They wake up with the same talking points and you can be sure that those talking points will be plastered on every news channel. Fake grass roots organizations like "Freedom Works", funded by Dick Armey, will continue to spread the message on a massive scale to hundreds of thousands across the country. We can't rest on our laurels thinking that we have done enough because policy is on our side. We have to combat this evil rhetoric not with evil, but with truth, facts, and a hell of a lot of noise! It is NOT ENOUGH to yell at the TV to create change. We have to arm ourselves with truth and become as active as they are. The political success of the left depends upon it.

Hi.

Netto Azure March 22nd, 2010 2:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light (Post 5644373)
I am not. Brush up on your research. =) The Right that is leading this movement wants nothing to do with the tyranny of either socialism or fascism. One of my favorite authors, W. Cleon Skousen, made a diagram that took a new perspective on "left" and "right", and why such left-right is obsolete.

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
^ TYRANNY (fascism, socialism, __________________________________ ^ PEOPLE'S RULE ____________________________________________ ANARCHY ^
___________oppressive monarchy)_______________________________(American federalism + ________________________________________(no government
______________________________________________________________our Constitution) _____________________________________________and chaos)

Sorry about the underscores, that was the only way I could figure out how to format it right.

I, and the other conservatives, support the People's rule. Not tyranny.

Secondly, the biggest Republican idea wasn't implemented at all. If all we needed to do was: "The bill passed and it's not easy taking away anti-protection laws. (aka no more recissions, pre-existing etc.) and guaranteed coverage." Then why do we need 2,400 pages to do it? Something smells very fishy to me, and I have good reason to believe there is based on what I stated in my earlier post about corrupt procedure.

On a side note, Obama has been quoted in the past as supporting a single-payer system. What makes you think his views have changed since then? Not to mention he has been insisting in his latest speeches that this is just "one gradual step toward true health care reform." I believe he still wants single-payer.

"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.

Prince_of_Light March 22nd, 2010 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 5644436)


"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.

I don't have Skousen's book in front of me, but he spoke to your point after the diagram was set up. I figured it needed more explanation. I believe he said something to the effect that the people's rule is defined as giving the people the power to define their government, while not giving each individual so much power that there can be no order. Secondly, our system of federalism is the best out there, when the constitution is actually being followed. What do you think all the other nations modeled their constitutions after? Thin air? No, ours was the first. Ours drew from Greek, Roman, and British roots. Thereafter, the other nations began to emulate us. Also, I'm aware that other governments achieve this effect. I just put American federalism so you would get the jist of what I meant.

.Gamer March 22nd, 2010 2:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure (Post 5644436)

"People's rule" is such a fluid thing. Didn't HS Government Class teach about the Parliamentary System? That "diagram" is biased to our form of Federalism as if it's the best out there. Democracy and Republicanism can assume different forms.

Anyways, Busy day : Registering with the death panels, getting barcode tattoo, then off to Marxist re-education camp. Glenn Beck tried to warn us.


I <3 you Netto. lolGlenn Beck.

As much as I am concerned about the possible repurcussions (for or against the bill, you must admit, it has the potnetial to go wrong) I have to agree with the people's rule part. Its true. Its the most dynamic aspect of our governmental system, and thus causes some swinging changes in public views, sometimes, public opinion shifts radically and other times it is a gradual process, this just happens to be one of those radical shifts in public opinion, it will most likely be brought up for repeal in the near future.


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