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-   -   4th Gen AI Luck? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=212904)

Sneeze March 31st, 2010 12:28 PM

AI Luck?
 
Is it me or is the game bias towards the AI regarding luck and chance? Random chances always seem to work in favour in the AI. I seem to be getting critical hits on me all the time, once match I even counted five and this was from basic moves like pound and stuff and fighting against Morty hypnosis hit me like five-six times in a row.

Does the game work in favour of the AI or do I just have abysmal luck?

Sire March 31st, 2010 12:29 PM

First off, what is the 'AI'?

billios March 31st, 2010 12:32 PM

AI means artificial intelligence

Raibutai March 31st, 2010 12:34 PM

a.k.a. the opponent you face in EVERY Pokemon battle in the game.

Tinhead Bruce March 31st, 2010 1:14 PM

Luck is almost always going to be on the AI's side. The AI doesn't think like a human does, so simply matching the player's skill against the AI's "skill" wouldn't be a challenge at all. However, put luck on the AI's side, and you've got a much more difficult battle. You will sometimes get lucky, because otherwise there wouldn't be algorithms that influence luck, there would just be coding that says "make the AI's attacks always crit and make it so the player always does the minimum damage possible".

Anyways, yeah, from what I can see, AI tends to have luck on its side.

Sneeze March 31st, 2010 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinhead Bruce (Post 5668201)
Luck is almost always going to be on the AI's side. The AI doesn't think like a human does, so simply matching the player's skill against the AI's "skill" wouldn't be a challenge at all. However, put luck on the AI's side, and you've got a much more difficult battle. You will sometimes get lucky, because otherwise there wouldn't be algorithms that influence luck, there would just be coding that says "make the AI's attacks always crit and make it so the player always does the minimum damage possible".

Anyways, yeah, from what I can see, AI tends to have luck on its side.

That makes sense actually, never thought about it that way, kinda lame though. At least its not like the battle tower I guess, the amount of times due to being KO'd by a OHKO move on the very first time it's used. >.< I swear its worse in HG/SS though, I never had this problem in any of the other gen, not to this extent anyways.

Andrew McKenzie March 31st, 2010 2:04 PM

Well, in all fairness. I think it's just bad luck on your part.
I was watching my friend play his the other day, without any codes, and he encountered 5 shinies in the space of the first 10 mins of playing.

It's rather annoying cause I can't even seem to find one shiny and I keep getting ****ed over by my attacks missing nearly every time.

Sudeki March 31st, 2010 2:06 PM

I have to say that the AI has gotten some boosts, and I love it, I mean I've noticed the AI has been smarter about which moves it uses, I mean before the AI would just use tons of moves even if there not effective, But now I've noticed they have started to use moves that are SE against me alot more.
And Yes the AI also seem to have better luck this time around with Status Moves/crits, and I also enjoy it. That was one thing that was always kinda boring was that the game was too easy.
But I wish they kept up the levels like they did on D/p/pt, I mean you had to do some serious training to even beat the gyms.

Sneeze March 31st, 2010 2:32 PM

Seems like kind of a cheap way to make the game harder imo though, it just comes down to luck not skill.

Tinhead Bruce March 31st, 2010 2:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneeze (Post 5668517)
Seems like kind of a cheap way to make the game harder imo though, it just comes down to luck not skill.

Skill will still be a factor. A skilled player can still beat an AI opponent who has the luck, as long as that player is versed in the Pokémon mechanics.

sgspacemonkey April 7th, 2010 5:00 AM

I recently wrote a post about this on my blog as I also noticed it and it has irritated me a bit I must say. I'm really enjoying Silver, but I do miss how the battles felt in Pearl. I don't think it can be just down to bad luck because the chances of having confusion work against me that often is rediculous. I like a challenge, but you can't help but feel frustrated when every single time your pokemon will end up hurting itself 4 times in a row, and when your opponent is confused that never happens and they tend to snap out of it pretty quickly. The crits and stuff weren't bothering me too much, it's just the confusion - it's really unfair. For example, 'Outrage' without the consequence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinhead Bruce (Post 5668540)
Skill will still be a factor. A skilled player can still beat an AI opponent who has the luck, as long as that player is versed in the Pokémon mechanics.

You're right in a way, but there is never any skill in luck. For example, can you say that people who appear on shows like 'Deal or no deal' are using skill. As long as you're winning it's fine, but the moment you train really hard and end up losing anyway due to an overweighted game, you can't help feeling a little put off by it. I just think it's lazy to make a game hard by simply changing the stats for the enemy. A.I. should be made hard by actually building tacticts into it. I have however, noticed the use of moves in Silver have been a little more intelligent.

Vindel April 7th, 2010 5:07 AM

In most every game, the AI is going to have a lot better chance of hitting/critting/killing you. It makes the game more difficult, perhaps annoying, but what fun is a game that has no challenge?

Talk about bad luck, I was playing Fire Emblem 7, and fighting an enemy boss who had a 1% chance to crit while I had 57%. I didn't crit and said I'd kill him next turn. He turns around and kills my main character, and I have to start the chapter over. :/

I've had similar situations in Pokémon. The enemy I was fight kept using Waterfall, and it kept critting/flinching me. Got really annoying. My Pokémon was using an item that had a chance to flinch them, as well as Focus Energy and Night Slash and I still wasn't critting.

Oh, have you ever noticed, the times you crit is usually when you don't need one? AKA: trying to catch a Pokémon, or one that is already at critcal HP.

Ninja Caterpie April 7th, 2010 5:31 AM

Well, stuff their luck.

Serene Grace Togekiss to the rescue! I'd like to see them try and out-flinch this beast.

Sneeze April 7th, 2010 5:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Caterpie (Post 5691285)
Well, stuff their luck.

Serene Grace Togekiss to the rescue! I'd like to see them try and out-flinch this beast.

That's why I have one on my EV Trained platinum team, complete with Thunder Wave. :P

I considering putting attract on there do but decided against it.

sgspacemonkey April 7th, 2010 5:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindel (Post 5691242)
In most every game, the AI is going to have a lot better chance of hitting/critting/killing you. It makes the game more difficult, perhaps annoying, but what fun is a game that has no challenge?

I like a challenge, but I prefer a challenge in that my opponent is intelligent, not over-weighted. Anyway, like I said, crits aren't so bad. In Pokemon I find it's the stuff like flinching, paralyse, sleep and confusion, that make you miss a turn, that get annoying, lol. I have a strong interest in A.I. and like to read books about it, which have always stated as a rule that the player should never ever feel like they are being cheated against. I guess that's partly why I have a low opinion of it. I'm ok with it, as long as I don't notice it, but I don't like being cheated against by A.I. any more than I'd like another human player to cheat against me.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindel (Post 5691242)
Oh, have you ever noticed, the times you crit is usually when you don't need one? AKA: trying to catch a Pokémon, or one that is already at critcal HP.

Yup that always happens. Pretty typical really. The luck in Pokemon seems to always work against you, lol. The thing is, I've always been lucky in most RPG's, yet never in Pokemon.

lamby101 April 7th, 2010 5:48 AM

I wish the AI would actually battle with some sort of intelligence, the amount of times i've been nearly finished off and then the AI mucks it up is annoying. I'm through to the 7th gym, with a pretty average team and am yet to lose a battle :/

Tinhead Bruce April 7th, 2010 7:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgspacemonkey (Post 5691230)
You're right in a way, but there is never any skill in luck. For example, can you say that people who appear on shows like 'Deal or no deal' are using skill. As long as you're winning it's fine, but the moment you train really hard and end up losing anyway due to an overweighted game, you can't help feeling a little put off by it. I just think it's lazy to make a game hard by simply changing the stats for the enemy. A.I. should be made hard by actually building tacticts into it. I have however, noticed the use of moves in Silver have been a little more intelligent.

No, you cannot really say that they are using skill, because they are not. They have no idea where anything is, even if they have an inkling. However, Pokémon is not Deal or no Deal, and taking random guesses is not productive, nor will it increase your chances to win. Skill, however, will help you win. Choosing the right moves, matching up the types, using items, and employing strategy will help you beat an opponent, even if he has luck.

Anyways, I agree with you on the part about making AI more tactic-based, but it would be difficult, at least on this platform at this time. I do believe though that Nintendo and other companies could make great strides in AI if they put a little more R & D on it.

leonfei April 7th, 2010 7:09 AM

@Tinhead
The DS is perfectly capable of having advanced AI. AI is just code after all, and even if you have a massive option tree, say with 20 levels and 20 options per level per previous level option (little convoluted, but I think I got that right) it would still only take 20 executions, since there would only be one execution per level of the code. All it would take is space on the cartridge for the code, and if they write a basic algorithm that can be modified for each trainer I'm sure it would be possible.

Anyway I seem to have been quite lucky while playing Heart Gold. I haven't suffered too much from biased AI, but I have witnessed it in Pokémon in the past. It's why I prefer straight out attack moves to things like confusion when fighting the computer, since damage is damage.

linkinpark187 April 7th, 2010 7:32 AM

I'd like to know what happened to the smart, well thought out, strategy based AI. I remember in the 1st and 2nd gen getting Sand Attacked like no tomorrow by a Pidgey until it knew that it had sufficiently used it, then it would start to Tackle. I loved that, and I used to battle like that in Pokémon myself. But not anymore, because all the AI ever does is attack. BUT I've also noticed that that's all Nintendo programmed them with. There's just no fun in battling the AI anymore. I dislike it on every level, but I'll still play it anyway. :laugh:

Tinhead Bruce April 7th, 2010 7:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonfei (Post 5691496)
@Tinhead
The DS is perfectly capable of having advanced AI. AI is just code after all, and even if you have a massive option tree, say with 20 levels and 20 options per level per previous level option (little convoluted, but I think I got that right) it would still only take 20 executions, since there would only be one execution per level of the code. All it would take is space on the cartridge for the code, and if they write a basic algorithm that can be modified for each trainer I'm sure it would be possible.

Anyway I seem to have been quite lucky while playing Heart Gold. I haven't suffered too much from biased AI, but I have witnessed it in Pokémon in the past. It's why I prefer straight out attack moves to things like confusion when fighting the computer, since damage is damage.


I understand, but there is a difference between the advanced level of AI you're talking about – and just for the record I agree with you – and the advanced level of AI that everyone wants. They want AI that make logical decisions, that think in the exact way humans do, which, at least for right now, isn't possible. Obviously this "they" is just my assumption, as it's what I always wanted when I was younger.

sgspacemonkey April 7th, 2010 7:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinhead Bruce (Post 5691472)
No, you cannot really say that they are using skill, because they are not. They have no idea where anything is, even if they have an inkling. However, Pokémon is not Deal or no Deal, and taking random guesses is not productive, nor will it increase your chances to win. Skill, however, will help you win. Choosing the right moves, matching up the types, using items, and employing strategy will help you beat an opponent, even if he has luck.

Anyways, I agree with you on the part about making AI more tactic-based, but it would be difficult, at least on this platform at this time. I do believe though that Nintendo and other companies could make great strides in AI if they put a little more R & D on it.

Yeah I guess you're right, you can actually do more in Pokemon to work with the luck, but I have had the odd battle where I have relied on pure luck and perseverance to get me through, and it just never seems to go my way. (I can accept that sometimes that is just down to unluckyness and that certain moves do have a risk to use, but after having had several pokemon die on me in a row from full health due to confusion I can't help thinking that something is up.) There are certain risky moves that can be used skillfully, but if it's weighted to make them even less likely to work, you might as well go for something more guarenteed.

I don't know much about programming A.I. for the DS, but I don't see why it wouldn't be capable of running something pretty advanced. It's not like trying to pump out powerful graphics or anything. I have played some DS games with tonnes of tacticts programmed into them that have been incredibly challenging and yet have not felt weighted. (or maybe they were, but in that case they hid it well.) I imagine Pokemon wouldn't require anything over the top anyway, just a few more checks and states added in.

DXrobots April 7th, 2010 8:50 AM

Like how their asleep for 2 turns max. and how confusion always hurts you, and you can never move when your in love I hate that and I notice it too sometime

SCV058 April 7th, 2010 8:55 AM

I notice they wake up first turn a lot, I also noticed one Lance missed Dragon Rush four times in a row...so I might not just be the programming, just you.

Yusshin April 7th, 2010 9:38 AM

I know they're smarter (they'll actually opt to use Super Effective moves now, and even switch out!), but luckier? Not really, no. Lance used Dragon Rush five times and missed everytime when I was battling him the first time :]

Chunes April 7th, 2010 9:55 AM

To the people complaining about confusion etc.:

The AI almost never uses a status attack twice in a row. If the AI wastes a turn confusing you, use yours to pop a full heal, then the AI will choose another attack. It won't get stuck in an endless loop of confusing and un-confusing.

The only such loop I've seen it get in is battles of attrition with stat changes (e.g.—it uses tail whip on me and I use growl on it; it's likely to use tail whip again the next turn and so on).


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