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Project Max Revive: FF&W Revitalization Project
Hilariously, I leave you guys for a couple of weeks, and you manage to get distracted by emblems and bold topics. Way to go.
In any case, I'll make this short and sweet. You know how we've already pointed out that there's been all kinds of fun little problems in FF&W? This is a thread dedicated to figuring out what needs to be done and who's going to do it. In other words, it's a separate thread because the FFL apparently has a case of ADD most of the time. (Seriously, guys? Emblems? You could have discussed that in less than a page, and it's probably not the most important thing on our list.) So! Read, discuss, and add constructive notes (i.e., not just "this isn't going to work" but also suggestions on what will or what will make it work). Outsiders welcome. Off-topic notes, non-constructive posts, and getting distracted by shiny objects will get you kicked in the groin or ovaries. The following will be changed frequently, based on feedback and the actions of the people participating: Outstanding Issues 1. The problem of people not reading stickies. It's a problem that's plagued communities for centuries. We need stickies, but we run at a risk of no one actually touching them. - Mizan: Suggested that infractions be given out to anyone who makes it obvious they haven't read the stickies. Problem: Isn't this a bit harsh? Not to mention it can only be justifiably applied to the rules, not the guides, and Bay pointed out that this will probably make people want to be less active. - Bay: Suggested eye-catching title. Problem: Astinus pointed out that this happens with the rules to a hilariously frequent degree anyway, and no one reads them, either. - Jax: Is suggesting now that we have fewer stickies and focus only stickying threads containing only the most important information that people might not already know. (Reviewing guide is included not out of egotism but instead because not many people seem to get what reviewing is.) As Breezy pointed out, the reviewing guide seems geared towards vets, and that's effectively who actually reads the stickies anyway. Forcing the vets to set an example by having stickies geared towards them (with the rules being the main/only n00b-friendly one) and applying what they've learned from those stickies in their interactions with writers should be able to encourage newbie and n00b authors to emulate them. As in, less need to enforce the stickies so long as vets know what they're talking about. Jobs 1. Challenges Unfortunately, there's not much we can do here until we increase review quality and frequency. While reviewing is on the rise (which I do legitimately applaud you guys for), we need to refine the reviewing process a little, as pointed out by Astinus in her latest FFL post. The better the reviewing process, the higher quality fic is around here. Higher quality of fic/higher frequency of writer-to-reviewer interaction -> more fic (because people will want to post in a community known for good writers and lots of good reviewers) -> more member interest in things like challenges and contests. That and whatever happens is mostly up to Astinus anyway, considering she's the only staff member for the forums. Hence, it's up to her as to how involved in this kind of thing she is. While it's perfectly possible to bring back things like An Exquisite Corpse (for the third time) because that's purely just for funzies, doing something that would require emblems, stickies, and official-like threads (i.e., the prompt challenge) would probably require a mod's finesse. 2. Review-a-Review Thread Thread Creation: Mizan (No deadline until the review guide pops up.) Once the review guide goes up, Mizan, you're doing this. Start writing the first post. 3. Plot Bunny Thread Contacting SPPf: bobandbill Creating the thread: bobandbill You've got the template, so I'd say it might take you a couple of weeks to come up with a version for PC. Go for it. 4. Revamp of the Fanfiction Lounge Thread Creation: Obviously, Astinus (See below for details about when this should happen and how.) Before anyone can take this, we need to answer one simple question: what goes into it? What kinds of things should happen in the lounge as opposed to the rest of the forum? What would be considered off-topic? Should the new Lounge be just for writing tips? Furthermore, how do we encourage member-to-member interaction so we don't end up just answering bold questions in one-liners and blowing off everyone else who doesn't lines in bold? 5. Resources Thread Thread Posting/Formatting: Dagzar (No deadline until we've got enough resources to make a decent list.) Personally, I support this idea over a guide because the guides to grammar and general fanfiction writing tended to be both incomplete and painfully outdated. Simply linking to reliable guides off-site will prevent us from succumbing to our usual bouts of ADD and wandering away from guides before they're finished. Hence, if people are also in support of this logic, start posting your favorite guides to grammar, plot development, character development, and any other writing subject you can think of. 6. Emblems Creation: Giratina Move off of them already. The kids who are doing them already have their instructions, and if they don't, we need a handful of concise posts that state exactly what emblems we want to have. 7. Review Announcement Thread System Creation: Mizan Mizan gave himself this job, but don't let me see it until the other reviewing guides are up for obvious reasons. 8. Rules Revamp Plot/Writing/Whatever: ALL OF US.(?) And it's going to be effing sweet. As proposed by Azurne, one way we're going to get people to read the rules thread is by turning it into the most epic story ever. Planning committee will be assembled once we get a few questions out of the way. The forum will explode with how epic it will be. 9. Fanfiction Archive per la uno... shotti? Conversion: Astinus Proposed by Dagzar, we could use a place to stick one-shots so they can get the attention they deserve (instead of being lost and forgotten). I support this mainly because I kinda like seeing forums we never use (read: Fanfiction Archives and/or Revision Bin) either bulldozed or turned into something we do use. They look so lonely! Also, it'd be cool to give one-shots a place to live, yes? 10. Anything else? What have I missed? |
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There's got to be a way to get people to read stickies. What if we make it so that people have to link back to the stickies at the beginning of the first post of their fic? Or to say "read the stickies!" at the end of their title or something?
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However, I will think about this. The only things that come to mind right now are obscure references to things people probably haven't even heard about, wretched puns, and things that are otherwise generally un-grabbing. Also, would you like me to move the list I mocked up over to this thread? |
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Pokemon Related: http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml - this is the first website I go to when needing Pokemon information since it’s quick, reliable and navigable (not including times when it’s as slow as hell). http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Main_Page - my second Pokemon resource, this site is useful when I need to know anime stuff, like what an attack looks like and things that Serebii doesn’t have, like Missingno / glitch stuff. Character Related: http://www.mybirthcare.com/favorites/babynames.asp - a nice site for getting names. Plotting Related: http://www.sfwa.org/2009/08/fantasy-worldbuilding-questions/ - awesome site of awesomeness. It’s a great help for building fantasy worlds like you wouldn’t believe. Writing Mechanics: http://dictionary.reference.com/ - exactly what is says (it even has a thesaurus!). General: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page - not that reliable, I suppose, but it’s good for a quick fact. http://www.nanowrimo.org/eng/forum - you can find anything here and the forum comes with its own resources thread that includes information on medicine, police stuff, geography, history and so many other things. Quote:
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Maybe not infractions directly unless they repeat it over and over, but maybe instant thread closure if they don't, say, post something in their thread that they are meant to which is given in the rules sticky/others? But even that seems iffy to me... Note there will be always some people who don't read the stickies, but certainly it probably can be improved from what it is atm. Quote:
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Bah stupid late-night posting. -_- |
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It's only a suggestion, and it would be a challenge to any of the more experienced writers who would be willing to commit themselves. Personally, though, I see a lot more people clicking on a link to what they think is a story, and finding out it's a story/parody of our rules. And, if it's interesting enough, they won't hit their back button so fast. I'm not making any sense to you now, but perhaps I can come up with an example later... Bottom line is though, no one is going to read your stickies if they're purely a long list of 'things you should do', etc. (Or, if you have to go that route, make them as short and sweet as possible?) Again, just a suggestion. I'm tossing out ideas since no one else seem to know what to do either. :P |
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Worse comes to worse we can just do what we've always done and slap funny titles on it and pray it's hilarious enough so people bother to click and read. |
Azurne, how do you plan on going about doing this? Is it going to be something in the style of a bad Edutainment show (or a parody of a bad Edutainment show) where an innocent and bumbling author is put through the paces of writing a decent story? Or will it be a "teacher-student" dynamic that your fifth-grade teacher had always praised you for? Or a couple of co-writers arguing about how to handle a certain instance? Sure, it could be interesting, but it could also be anvilicious and/or boring as a result.
As for the "not reading it at all" thing... there's not much we can do about it. Sure, we can remind people to read the rules and stickies and we can have people refer to them in our reviews, but we can't plaster "READ THE GUIDES" all over our fanfics while annoying the innocent readers who don't need to take a crash course in fanfiction. |
Yeah, those are valid points, Giratina. And there is a good chance it would end up worse than a normal layout as well (for instance if it gets too flowery and the exact points get lost/harder to find within the sticky itself). One main aim I feel would be for it to be as easy as possible to understand and read...so it depends how you think it would be presented and all. And no matter what there will always someone who ignores rules/etc no matter what and there's little one can do about it unfortunately, speaking from experience. >_<
Also, going to add that I already contacted the thread maker of the Plot Ideas thread on sppf, as well as a fanfic mod there about it, and got both saying 'sure, go ahead' basically about using such a thread here/as a templete. |
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In the meantime, a few links I can throw in off the top of my head: Character Related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue - The most comprehensive guide to Mary Sues, believe it or not. A definition of what they are in general, followed by the basic archetypes and examples. (I'm not offering a Mary Sue Litmus Test because these tend to be controversial. I've got links, though, if people think we should throw one in.) Writing Mechanics: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/exercises/ - A pretty thorough guide to grammar, complete with various exercises that help you develop your grammar-related skills. http://www.grammarbook.com/english_rules.asp - Another guide that's just as thorough as the above. Includes detailed examples and more details about rules OWL's a bit fuzzy on. (This includes a list of commonly confused words, too.) http://orangoo.com/spellcheck/ - Online spell checker. General: http://community.livejournal.com/little_details/ - An LJ community geared specifically towards helping writers do their research by answering their questions. It's already an impressive community filled with information (sorted by the tags) that you can't find practically anywhere else. PC writers with LJ accounts can also sign up for the community and ask away if they can't find the answer they need in the archives. http://www.google.com - Best search engine in the world and your first stop before trying to tear your hair out over not finding things in Wikipedia first. (Optional link, though. We could easily leave it out if it's too obvious.) Quote:
It might be plausible to have people link to the rules sticky at the beginning of their first post, but I wonder if the newbies will just start copying the line if we make it something obvious (like "I read the rules!" on every single story) or just get scared away. Did someone in the FFL suggest merging the rules thread with a miniature fic index to force people to read the rules if they want advertising? Would this work, or would we still have problems with people not reading the first post? On to bnb's post, I'd like to start off by saying thank you for what you said in the FFL. I'm glad someone agrees with me and Asty, though she's seriously a softie. Quote:
I'd say maybe we should stray away from modding that harsh. Sure, Astinus will still have to close the fics that seriously didn't even make an effort to follow forum standards, but I feel like this is what's going on anyway and that we need to think of something beyond this idea. Ever-changing thread titles might still help, especially if Astinus doesn't make it obvious what the titles are and why they're stickied. Did anyone else notice the reviewing guide when she threw in "unf unf unf" at the end of it? (Yeah, it was the reviewing guide and not the rules. I was tired when I mentioned that, so ignore me there. XD) Quote:
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So, in other words, it's really up to you. XD Quote:
And because I got ninja'd on the way to hitting the post reply button... Quote:
What do the rest of you think? Would this actually work so long as we made all of the rules clear? Hell, we could even make it a hilarious round-robin between vets (so long as we get the main point approved by Asty first). Edit: Haha, ninja'd again. Ignore that last bit until Azurne comes back. For anyone else who hasn't gotten a job in the first post, don't be afraid to come in anyway. We'll still need a lot of feedback on and submissions for practically everything. Some ideas (and you can certainly think of your own because I know you're all intelligent, creative people who know what's off-topic and what's not and can probably see problems we haven't yet addressed concerning what we're trying to do): 1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered? 2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be? 3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies. 4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W? And so on and so forth. Hop to it, kids! |
Yay! [claps]
Seriously now, we will need to keep it on track while still making it "interesting"... Perhaps there could be some nice, fiction-y explanation of the concept and then out a cute little to-the-point "lesson summary" afterward? That way we can have our cool methods of teaching, but we can also make it so that people actually understand the lessons. Though I gotta admit, I don't think that my tangent-ridden brain is the best nominee for this. Sorry. D: However, I can spew up ideas, so whoever is tagged with that job can holler to me for it. Just saying. |
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That's not what I had in mind, actually. (I've never seen an 'Edutainment show'. >.>) It would be a real story in and of itself, with nothing painfully obvious like writers arguing amongst themselves or a boring lecture story. The most popular-written story theme around here seems to be adventure however, so that would be a theme. Fantasy as well, since this is Pokemon, after all. I also had a vague concept of a evil arch-overlord writer, something akin to Drosselmeyer from Princess Tutu, if anyone's seen that. Since I just came up with it though I don't have a plot. I don't think it's impossible though. --- Quote:
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BOLD TOPIC DERP
1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered? I can't really help here - most of my reviews follow a really lose guideline. A. an explanation of my mood and/or first impressions of the fic before I read it, B. quoted sections for notes on single lines, C. an overview. Sadly, I can't help you here. 2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be? I think if we have a sort of "playground" thread for everyone to goof off in - entirely separate from the nice, writing-oriented new FFL - then we may be able to keep the "Community" part of "PokéCommunity". Of course, if newbies start getting intimidated, we can always mow it down again. Just a note. 3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies. We can't. 4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W? Only that the community is just fine, but if we don't set some boundaries it won't be all that awesome for much longer. Quote:
This is beautiful. In other news, let me get this straight - are txt and I the entirety of the Emblem department, or have we picked up more people? Honestly, I think it's a one-man job, but... :/ In other other news: string cheese is officially the best food on Earth. |
1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered?
We definitely need to make sure newbies know to say not only good things about a story, but bad things. “I like it! Update soon!”, is not useful other than being a very mild ego boost. Actually critiquing a story is helpful, even if it’s small things like, “Good story, but your grammar could really use some work!" 4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W? Get a Completed Stories section. Seriously, I feel sorry for all those Oneshots that stay on the first page for a day or two and then disappear forever. We need a place to keep them all so readers don’t have to dig for hours to find a completed story. Maybe we can turn the Revision Bin into this since that section isn’t really used? |
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And I'll reply to other stuff after sleep and some return to sanity. Also YES to completed fics section I really like that. (But guess what other forum has that? ;P) |
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*noms on carrot* 1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered? Well, I think they need to be taught that mindless fangirling is okay, provided it comes with a good few reasons why they are mindlessly fangirling. Mannerisms doesn't seems like it's a problem here, so I think maybe one line saying to be respectful should cut it. Aside from that, teaching them to properly analyze stories might be a plus. 2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be? I really can't say much here, seeing as I haven't lurked much enough to really grasp what needs to be done. 3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies. Well, I already presented my idea, but if I come up with a simpler solution I'll be sure to post. 4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W? Really haven't been here long enough to know, sorry. X_x |
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Oh hey questions. 1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered? Good and bad ways to review + examples of that (and actually I now recall something Negrek - who I know stalks this place at times =P -came up with something like this - maybe could use a look-at again or something? My memory is a bit vague on it though). Maybe a simple guide on how to do a general review as well - say it doesn't have to be an essay but stress that one-liners are spammy and not helpful - rather say what you liked/disliked and why, maybe giving examples as well + mentions of mistakes that may have been noticed? That seems to be the basis of a general sort of review to me anyways...could be adjusted though. Also something regarding how to respond to reviews without being disrespectful, the 'if you post this here expect to get reviews, some which may be negative in nature', etc. 2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be? The rules... hmm, maybe more on the 'don't spam' part and place emphasis that one-liner reviews come under that? IDK how relevant the 'don't abuse tags' rule actually has been either, actually... also pointing to important stickies some more obviously/continuation of that only with new links. FFL - IMO may be better to keep it writing-orientated, doesn't mean discussion must be restricted to fanfiction though? (i.e. other writing things). 3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies. I recall a pop-up window appears for people when they get a PM - maybe something similar for first-timers to the forum? Hard to ignore that... hmm. *shrugs* |
Sweet. Tons of activity while I'm gone.
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Also, we could try to cover one concept/section of the rules per installment. For example, the chapter in which Astinus rolls out of bed and skips off to get her starter could also be laced with bits about the introduction to the rules and the very basic rules everyone just needs to follow. ("You can only get this license if you've read and understood all of PC Region's rules first." "Why do I need to know the rules of a completely separate region?" "You just do. Shut up, kid.") Quote:
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Which is to say, YES, WE SHOULD DO THIS. Quote:
As for the round robin, I was thinking it'd help things out. We could plan out a basic plot that we should follow and have everyone write out bits that cover the rules we want to throw in. Then, someone assembles the stories and proofreads/edits, and it gets slapped up on the main forum as a sticky. That way, we don't overwork a single person and can get the most important part of the forums done in less than a year, with full feedback from its team of writers. Thus, it'll probably need to be in a separate thread once we get started so we can decide on what to put in, how to work out the story, and what the plot actually is. What do you guys think? Quote:
That and we could easily just link to the DCC or get a usergroup going if we want an off-topic area where kids who frequent this forum can talk about absolutely anything they want (be it writing or otherwise). In fact, that's one thing I actually forgot about: the fact that it was proposed by me that we just migrate the insanity parts to a usergroup if we really wanted to keep it so that FF&W wouldn't feel like it was excluding anyone by having this massive thread full of off-topic inside jokes. Would you guys like this to happen? If so, who would like to start it up? (Keep in mind that we could always link to it somewhere, so it's not like it'll be this obscure corner of PC.) Quote:
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Screw this BS. You get all of them. Just as long as they get done. =| (That entire period's going to be hilarious in hindsight. I can sense it.) Quote:
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Asty, what'll you'll need to have happen for that Revision Bin to be converted? Alternatively, we've got the Fanfiction Archive. Would it be a good idea to get rid of the Revision Bin altogether and simply move one-shots to the Archive after a month of inactivity? (What would we do with past FFOTMs? Allow people to comment on them from then on out? Lock them and throw up an index of where people can find them so they won't be completely drowned by one-shots? Or would it be better to just convert the Revision Bin after all?) Someone poke Asty in here. Quote:
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Also, XD to the note about Google. Also very true. Quote:
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What would go into that guide, though? Maybe a list and short explanations of commonly used genres? A list of suggestions for how to find inspiration and cook it into a potential plot (since that's also a popular question 'round these parts)? Also, I read your answers to the other questions. They pretty much made sense to me, and for the reviewing guide especially, I'll add them in. Meanwhile... Quote:
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Very very very short unnecessary post because I'm really kind of tired.
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Me showing actual effort. Oh, and also what you people want done to those sections. I mean, we have the Fanfiction Archive and the Revision Bin currently. One of those is turning into the Completed Fics Archive. Discuss amongst yourselves how the section is going to work, and I can make magic happen. I swore that there was something else I needed to talk about, but I'm just not seeing it. If there are things that you need me to discuss, seriously shoot me a VM and be all like "Hey, lazy. Get in here." Quote:
I don't know if that's a good thing or not. OKAY I'M DONE WITH THE EMOTICONS. |
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I could probably handle some of that section. Quote:
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I actually think this would be an awesome idea. I mean, newbies can be pretty shy and they’d definitely listen to a personal PM. Not only does this get the stickies to the newbie’s attention, but it’d also open up a line of communication between them and a friendly veteran. I’m not sure if I imagined this or not, but I think I remember brief talks that went on in the FFL about a veteran adopting a newbie and mentoring them…? Well, that’s what the veteran could do and could guide the newbie to Writer’s Lounge, making sure they get acquainted with people. Either way, I think this would solve our stickies problem. |
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Otherwise, I like it, so I've got nothing else to add there. Quote:
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More awake now, so...
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Yes to the obnoxious. Imagine you're someone brand-spanking new to the forum, and you come to this section. (Why? Who wouldn't? :V) You click on the link and then like a baseball bat to the face is some really annoying pop-up telling you to read the rules...when all you wanted to do was figure out what's going on. Or if you miss-clicked. Besides, what would that say about our section when we're the only ones on the forum that has a pop-up like that? Quote:
Personally (and I'm applying what happens at my work), I would go with a more personal one-on-one (or small group) approach to going over the rules and pointing out the stickies. Take the new person aside, go over things with them, answering any questions and whatnot. But that's more like the mentoring program that went off as well as a luftballoon. Thing is, I don't know how that'll work out. Do the new writers ask for help like that? Is there going to be a group of people strolling around, tackling all new members to this? Idk and Idc, but I'm saying no to the pop-up. For those reasons and because a moderator can't do that. As for this: Quote:
And of course the bit about how authors shouldn't insult their reviews would be grand. It's a-okay to disagree with a review, but don't be a drama queen who wanks to your own giant ego about it. Quote:
That, and maybe my statement of "this would be the last place I would go for writing help" holds true? I mean, how would we judge who's the best for guiding the future hope of this section? Credentials that actually don't mean anything? (If that's the case, then the moderator's automatically out.) Everyone gathers in a fenced-in pen and I just randomly fire a gun at everyone, and whoever is left standing is it? http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/Hanako_Tabris/emoticons%20from%20LPs/emot-iiam.gif Quote:
I'm amused now. |
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=D |
I am now convinced that time is conspiring against me. Thank God I’m a semi-speed-reader. Anyway, I’ve noticed that you guys, well a portion of you anyway, have been practically awesome while I’ve been jumping in and lurking in between work (what kind of work is up to your imagination.). This makes me slightly guilty since I did play a part in suggestions, but have failed to come up with anything concrete as of now. Even though I do read fast, it took a while to understand that wall-o-text (which was very informative btw) from the last page and now I’m ready to make my input to the revival project.
First off: Quote:
I’m going to assume that this is the thread where we post our reviews and ask for feedback on how we’ve done... Then, I’m guessing the general idea is for me to also get those review exercises and answer keys done... It’s up till there with what I’m planning on doing with that thread so I’m adding a few suggestions of my own to this particular idea. Aside from me doing the review exercises, we can also ask FFL veterans to submit their own badfics and answer keys since we’re going to need a varied list of mistakes (and I can’t showcase every single common mistake someone might do in my badfic since I’m far from perfect.) which we can then use for analysis and subsequently be used by anyone who wants to try their hand at reviewing before being sent out into the field. Also, I’m thinking of another mentor system in which we have dedicated members who actually respond to someone asking on how they review. Something like the beta-thread, but these members will be listed in the Reviewer’s Academy(coming up with a better name if there’s no objections) as official mentors. As OMs it is mandatory for them to review another member’s review(that has been requested for reviewing) unless someone hasn’t already done it. This way, we can avoid unanswered requests and if we have enough mentors that are active, we won’t have any pending requests like in the beta-thread(no offense bnb). Of course, mentors are allowed to post their own reviews and ask for comments and regular members can also jump in the thread to offer their own comments. OMs may also be VM’d if they’ve been inactive for too long to avoid members claiming status without actually doing any work. Since I also want to avoid being too strict, OM’s must at least review 5 reviews a month so we can get perpetual activity. The only flaw I see here, unless someone’s willing to point something out since I’m sure it isn’t 100% perfect, is that newbies might not post their reviews in the academy. How mentorship is gained is up for debate. Main Points
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As stated back in the FFL, members post in the thread to tell me that they’ve done review so-and-so with a link to the review. Every week or month, I’ll check the review links posted to make sure they meet the necessary criteria(refer below) and then I’ll update the wall of reviewer’s list at the beginning of the thread to show that member x has done (this much of reviews) this month which makes his review rate from the time of his first review posted in the thread to be [(number of reviews)/(months since first ‘recorded in thread ‘review)]. Members that manage a 10RpM quota can request the shiny bronze emblem from Asty. If they manage to maintain the quota for a few more months, they get the silver one and so on and so forth. The Reviewer’s Emblem(the one for quality reviews) is not requestable since it’s up to how Asty perceives their reviews -- if it is quality material. Also up for discussion is if we need to fulfill a certain criteria for reviews that qualify for rank emblems. Something specific so that I have something check against when checking the validity of review claims. Possibly a set criteria like, reviews must point out at least five things(either negative or positive) and must be at least five relative lines long or something like that. Because reviews that point out one or two mistakes and are helpful, but short might make the emblems too easy to request for and might make the rank emblems cheap. Then they kind of lose their prestige like the ‘New Year’s emblem (which is not really anything to be proud off). Quote:
If I may interject with a suggestion based on one of your quotes in the FFL. Quote:
2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be? We should all get cookiesWe could allow for FFL-type interaction to a certain limit, but this leads to cliquey and elitist behavior so I’m opting for the FFL to have certain posting guidelines so we don’t go randomly go off-topic. Also, we might have bold-topics, but we really need to stop being so uptight about answering them and generally focus on member to member interaction based on bold-topics, but without delving into over-randomness. Admittedly, this needs a massive overhaul in mentality, but so does regular reviewing... 3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies. An announcement thing at the top of the forum like Chibi-chan does in OC. I don’t think anyone reads it, but it’s worth a shot. 4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W? I’m toying with the possibility that we allow completed fics in the Completed Fics section to remained unlocked indefinitely if requested by the author. I mean, some people(including myself) have oneshots that have passed the one-month revival rule, but we’d still enjoy it if people commented on the fics. Sorry if I missed anything relevant... |
*brings activity back here*
Urgh, would have posted eariler, but was sick. >.> For now I'm only going to bring up a couple things I want to give my feedback on: Quote:
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As for the emblems thing you mentioned Mizan, we'll talk about that after we get some review guide/critique info straighten out first. >.> |
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Is there any way I can help? I will offer my services if I may. I mean, I'm no spectacular writer but maybe I can help someone else on the section they are working on?
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Well...this is somewhat awkward. Reading back, I see that Giratina took on the emblem-making responsibilities, but I sorta kinda made one just now and it's sex in the form of an icon the only one we have so far. Should I continue on or leave things up to you, Giratina? Just VM me when you get a chance.
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Quickie post, but:
1. KajiVenator: Sure. We could use a lot of help with writing the rules thread. Even just feedback on what we're doing so we can gauge whether or not the point is getting across. You could be like a reviewer if you're not entirely confident with writing. 2. txty: I'm assuming this is for the gold emblem and not just reviewing in general. If so, thanks, and we could use it. Meanwhile, so long as there aren't any page-long discussions about who's making what emblem (again), I'm leaving the choice about who's doing the rest of the emblem set to you, Giratina. |
Speaking of the rules thread, is there like some revamp party going on somewhere that I wasn't invited to? Or did I just forget where it's all going down?
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It's an open endeavor at the moment. I just haven't put up an organization thread for us to sort out the plot and figure out who's writing what. That should be up over the weekend.
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I'd say that's the next big thing to get out of the way. Everything else pretty much builds off of the rules, so if we have a solid system in place all of that should be a lot easier/more organized/what-have-you.
Oh, and a recursive "yes" to your earlier question: that's intended to be the gold emblem. |
Txt, I said that if you needed assistance on any part of the project I would help. I quite like the Pokéball, though with just one letter and a relatively small "button line" it looks kinda plain. Maybe we could make it a Premier Ball or an Ultra Ball or something?
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I don't have much to add right now, but I'm asking, can you guys post your resourses links? It's fine if you don't have any, but only two people have given me theirs (one in a PM) and my list is looking rather thin.
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Hey guys you should all post more. =( And given the views I'm sure even newcomers to the section a peeking in - be friendly and give a suggestion, or even 'I agree with this idea because 'blah blah blah'' - I dare ya. ;P
But have even more of a reason to - I present a beta version of the plot bunny thread (name pending - anyone have a suggestion for something better for starters?) It's in two parts - the opening post and the 2nd post which is a guide to plotting as suggested. I do feel there's stuff that could be added/changed seeing I did finished it off quickly + recently but hey! A start at least! ...I hate it when I have to reformat stuff. -_- Spoiler:
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Well, first off, you'd need to do a grammar check. I saw a couple of typos in there. : P Seriously though, it seems like a good summary; however, I did notice that you used the term 'plot bunny' an awful lot. A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.
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Annoying buggers, no? =P http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotBunny You're right in the sense that it's hard to ignore it, but it doesn't mean an idea that will lead you nowhere. You may have gotten that definition because people often use other people's plot bunnies (think of a fanfic adoption thread) because the original creator doesn't know what to do with it, or is too lazy to use the idea. But really, it has come under general acceptance that plot bunny is referring to a plot idea anyway. Edit here: And if we were to use your definition of plot bunny (that it's an idea that leads no where), then the thread title actually seems better suited because you have other people trying to help you figure out where you want to go with this story while hammering out the kinks. ~ ~ ~ Edit: Also, because the first post asked for an outsider opinion ... I can't really comment on the planned stickies as, well, you guys have that handled, so I'm going to address something different that concerns all the stickies. That question is: who's going to be reading these stickies if you can't get anyone new to come into them? Why is it that new members (and maybe some new members who are experienced in other forums) don't seem to be really entering these sorts of conversations? Tl;dr summary: This is a post about your forum's vibe; it does not necessarily mean this is actually happening in the forum. A lot of people I talked to outside your community seem to be turned off by the tone that is being reflected in this forum – that is, they get a feeling that the veteran members gives off an air of them knowing everything and all disagreements are wrong. A newbie's opinion doesn't seem to hold the same weight as a veteran's, and that's not how it should work. If agreements go on for too long, the tone becomes more hostile than constructive. Basically, don't jump to assumptions, keep your tone neutral, and fully read and understand posts, even if you don't agree with them. In short, you have to address HOW you're posting and not just what improvements need to be made because what's the point of these shiny new stickies if no one, besides you guys, posts in them? Newbies will come and help if they don't think they'll get their head bitten off from it. It is a process that requires both sides to come to some sort of middle ground. New members who are experienced with forums will have no problem coming in and butting heads because they're probably use to it by now (ahem), but as for the new, like new-to-forums, member ... well, it's damn scary. Like your first day of high school. Relive that horror. The spoil is just me rambling about what I said above, but with example goodness! Spoiler:
I honestly do have to ask this, and this is strictly because I really don't know the inner detail about what's going on. You all seem aware of some sort of problem (is this just newbies not reading stickies, or something more? I'm not all that sure). But at the same time, do you think the forum requires changing – at least to this extent? Why? What benefits do you think will happen once you do make these changes? Will the community become a more open, friendlier place? Will the forum revert back to its original, glory state? And what exactly was that “state” anyway? Essentially, I understand that the goal is to “improve the environment,” but what was the environment like before that it needs this much of a change? I understood that it was chatty in the FFL and it made it hard to stay on track and allow new members to jump in, but this is a lot of work. Are there other problems that I'm not aware of? |
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Other than that, let's see what I have to comment about... Well, for one thing, I dislike the idea of Official Mentors for the review-a-review thing. To me, it seems like another way to promote the vets and widen the gap between veterans and newbies. And, from what I gather, that's pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish here. To be honest, I find the whole idea of reviewing reviews a bit futile, as it is a highly personal thing what kind of reviews one wants to read or write, but on the other hand, it could turn out to be very useful, so I don't know. And - I just know you're all going to beat me up for this - I'm also not a very big fan of this whole reviewing emblem thing. Somehow the idea of people writing reviews to get shiny emblems bugs me a lot, especially when there will be visible stats of how each reviewer is processing. It's yet another number to compare to other similar numbers and that always causes competition - it could be playful, good-humoured competition, especially at first, but it could also change into something completely different. I also feel that the whole emblem thing will eat away the credibility of all less active/newer members: if you have a shiny emblem, your word is surely more convincing and reliable than that of someone who lacks any kinds of credentials. The way I see it, it's also just another way to flash around the fact you're a vet and experienced and have credentials. Members equipped with a special, shiny emblem will intimidate newer members, and this will not help the original problem - the gap between vets and newbies - at all. Yes, emblems are irresistible and shiny, especially the one txt already made. It would be awesome to have an emblem on your favourite section. It would be awesome to have proof that you're active and really put your mind into reviews and so on and so forth. But, frankly, I don't think this'll help the integration problem any more. No, I fear the effect might be the opposite of that. I know I would be intimidated by that if I was new. Frankly, my friends, I think you keep drifting away from the original problem. Yes, this is a revolution, but this should be something the whole writing community does together for the whole writing community. You seem to keep drifting back to what veterans can do for veterans in this revolution. Think of the newbies! How would you feel, right now, coming to all this after just having discovered the section/fanfiction in general/the fandom/whatever? Try to focus on what's really important, and this could actually go somewhere. And sorry I haven't been here before, I kinda have these pesky entrance exams to study for. Now, you may proceed to beat me up. |
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Personally, I'd stick to one emblem only. Have it be the one that someone - Astinus? - hands out to someone who's written an exceptional review. It doesn't matter who they are or how often they review, it's about the quality of one, single review. Meaning newbies as well as veterans could get them and it's not based on how active you can be. (Asking for any amount of posts for an emblem always rubbed me the wrong way, because some people simply have more time than others and it certainly doesn't make them more capable at reviewing. I'm a teacher, I don't have a lot of outside time, but I do spend a lot of time on my reviews. Am I therefore a worse reviewer than someone who manages to write two in the same time-span? I'd like to think not. Reviewing should be about quality, not enforced quantity. I wouldn't want to feel forced to write a certain amount of reviews if I wanted an emblem.) Those who received the emblem could then be mentioned in the sticky - or normal thread, whatever is decided on - regarding this subject, preferably with reasoning as to why their review was chosen. That way people are shown examples of what constitutes as a good review and they could be inspired to start reviewing as well. This way they won't have to first write dozens of reviews before even qualifying. It urges people to review - because they have an immediate goal to strive for - and won't create such a divide between people because the emblem was giving for a review and not the reviewer or his post count. |
^ That. That that that. Now I have read above on this reviewer thing... yeah, the 'needs to make a minimum amount of reviews' thing and whatnot doesn't sit well with me (and I for one never care about fancy stuff like emblems anyways =P). After all it's never easy to review and review well consistently month in month out, and good reviewing isn't even about how often you write one - it's the review itself and how it helps the author improve, etc that matters.
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Of course as said the thread title/term used could be changed but eh. Quote:
Of course addressing and 'fixing' it completely is a different matter... |
Eh... I'm feeling a bit stupid now for doing the rest of the thread before reading the posts here. While I agree with An-Chan on that the RpM thing might just widen the vet-noob rift, I'm going to address a related issue in response to that.
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I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that these rank emblems weren't to award people for quality reviews. They were initially devised to get people to actually do reviews and stop everyone from slacking off into oblivion. The actual reviewer's emblem, was the one to award quality reviews. Also, a bit more on what An-Chan said about statistics, post count does the same thing actually not that I completely disagree with what you said. Also, it's actually a hidden incentive because, from a psychological perspective, there's something vaguely exciting about seeing your numbers rise. That's why penny arcade games were so popular way back when. Quote:
Anyway, because I'd feel wasted if I didn't actually post the thread draft here for comments, here it is. Spoiler:
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Urgh, need some catching up to do. Dang school. >.>;
Hm, since no one really commented on bobandbill's plot bunny draft, I'm going to real quick. Besides the typos Giratina mentioned, everything else is looking good. However, the "How to come up with the Plot" and the "Plotting itself" are kinda saying the same thing. Maybe merge them together or something? As for the reviewers emblem/minimum reviews thing, bobandbill, Silawen, and An-chan already mentioned the flaws of it, mostly on the veterans-newbie gap. So yeah, they said it much better than I could. Mizan, while I agree there should be an incentive to get the people reviewing too, not really sure if this system will work. Sorry to mention this again, but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews. Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do. Third, we don't just want the new people to just review. I get that you want more reviews there and hence why you have this more lax criteria on reviews here. Eventually we want them to improve their reviewing and I'm afraid with this system they will care more about the emblems instead of trying to make their reviews better than the last one. There's also one thing I want to add while reading your draft: Quote:
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What does Astinus feel about this matter though? Quote:
And uh, sorry if you feel like I'm antagonizing your views on the subject, but I'm not because you're the only one to comment on the draft as of yet. Thanks. |
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And even then, we've already begun to discuss (albeit on the rules thread, although there's smatterings of it on both the FFL and this one) what is and isn't a good review. A review is just something that points out something specific about the story and states what the reader thought about it honestly. It doesn't have to be pages upon pages long, but I agree that it's not really a one-liner either. It can be, at the very bare minimum, just a paragraph that states, "Oh, I really liked what you did in this chapter. These parts struck me in particular." No corrections necessary. No pages. No deconstruction of a fic. Just pure, simple honesty in a nutshell. Of course, the new guide would also go into more detail once that bottom line is established, but. As for the lack of reviewers, yes, I said that there was a distinct lack of them. As in, the FFL had this fun little tendency of not doing anything but sit around and go on and on about Sentrets with flamethrowers or something. However, this isn't like the people-don't-read-stickies problem where there's one pretty simple solution (when you get right down to it, at least). There's probably a completely different way of going about doing it, but we'll need to take a good look at every possible system. A few people have already said that emblems and a NaReWriMo will both have very serious problems. In that case, let's put aside those ideas for now and try to come up with a different solution. So, let's start by approaching the problem in a different direction. Why don't you (in general) review? Is it because of a lack of time? If we establish the idea that a review only has to be a paragraph or a handful of things you can spot right off the bat, would that make you review more? If not, what would? In other words, I'll have to thank you for your work, Mizan, but let's pull back for now and work on the foundation again before we do anything else. |
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*bump*
Well anyone else still alive? =P Let's keep this moving, shall we? Maybe we should focus on things one at a time... say addressing that problem about making this section friendly-looking to newbies rather than seeming elitist and whatnot (and along with that more discussion on the FFL -what WOULD it be aimed to be like? What would people want in an FFL that they would enjoy and also newcomers would feel at home in as well?) Maybe we should rebegin the ffl by first defining what is its aim/purpose and what would be allowed/encouraged within it. And anything else to say about the beta thread posted above in a spoiler on this page no matter how insignificant? I've half a mind to post it so might as well do all of the necessary edits in one go rather than chopping and changing. Such as on Bay's mention on this: Quote:
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About the beta thread thing, here’s my thoughts on it. Quote:
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… Yeah, the only problems I could find were spelling mistakes that are probably already outdated. Though, I don’t think ‘How to come up with Plot’ and ‘Plotting Itself’ are redundant since I see the former as an introduction, the main idea, while the latter is going over the smaller details. |
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For one, I think bold topics shouldn't be allowed, at least not in the format they have been seen so far. They give way too much room for ignoring newbies, enforce concentrating on just the question and your own answer, and don't really ever bring anything new to the table. They used to work, back a long time ago, when they weren't the only means of conversation in the FFL. They were there just to make the question clearer. Lately, it's been just bold topic after bold topic after bold topic with a side dish of general randomness. For me, it never was the inside-y randomness that kept me away from the thread that was my favourite place in the internet not too long ago, it was the influx of bold topics. That's not a discussion, guys. It doesn't create a warm atmosphere. It creates an atmosphere in which you're not required to read every post, leading to everyone reading only the posts of their pals or people they know. It creates an atmosphere in which igniting a real conversation looks troublesome and seems like it would break the normal pace. It creates an atmosphere that is just no welcoming at all. That is why I stopped posting in the thread, and I wasn't even a newbie. It's attitudes that need to change, not rules. I don't really like the idea of outright banning bold topics because they can be used well and be very useful, but when it comes down to it, they are a big part of why the problem was born in the first place. Thus, it's not really the rules that created the issue; it's the attitudes. Attitudes need to change. A lot of you have already mentioned that's the case, but I've yet to see anyone take any kind of action with regards to this. We're all equal, dammit. No matter how long you've been writing or how good your grammar is, we're all equal. Someone might be a better writer than someone else, but that's not what's important. Everyone's opinions should have the same value. That just hasn't hold true here for a long time, even if it should. And that is also why I'm against emblems. Quote:
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So what? We either outright ban bold topics, or we keep bold topics. If we ban them, then more in-depth discussions can take place that require reading of every post. If we keep them, then new members don't feel out of place or feel that there's a gap (because what if the discussion is on something that not all beginning writers know, and so not all people can join in).
One reason why I liked the bold topics is because they gave a way for people to join in. They [tried to] encompass everyone, from the experienced "veterans" to the brand-spanking-new members who don't know anyone. It's just that bold topics were used as a way for people to sneak in with on-topic posts mixed in with silly random posts. And since there were no rules for the FFL, and since the moderator had no idea what was going on because no one believes in communication, things spiraled out of control. Honestly, I'm all for restarting the FFL. With a new thread that has clear rules and a defined purpose, I can keep control of this. (I'm saying "I" because I'm planning on staying here as moderator until the day I die.) The current FFL started off as a place for announcements about new stories/chapters and then evolved to what we have now: a floundering mutation of nature. If it starts off clean, then it can remain clean. We need an attitude adjustment. That I agree with. But we can't just say "Change your attitudes!" without some guidance as to how. And keeping someway for the new members to join in helps, whether that's with bold topics or something else entirely. |
You know, it seems to me that if we're going to argue back and forth about the very, very basics (what purpose bold topics serve, what the definition of open and friendly is, that sort of thing), maybe we're not the best people to ask. I mean, we're already biased enough as it is; vets will probably look at the system and either say it works because it always has or it doesn't because of nostalgia goggles. So, maybe it might be better to ask the kids posting in the main forum why they don't come to the FFL (other than the construction). Maybe even show them a page from a couple months ago and ask them if they would join in on something like that and why or why not.
Because, really, the entire question hinges on the opinion of those kids, not us. We could try changing to make things better, but without knowing what one half -- the half we're trying to attract in the first place -- is thinking, we'll probably argue ourselves into a circle again like we're doing right now. So, yeah. How about some of us (and not just one person, either, 'cause we're trying to be friendly and open and all) try to drop those people a few VMs to get their opinions? |
I'll volunteer myself for that job. And do some other things that will hopefully attract those in the main forum over to these threads.
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Val brings up a good point. We can speculate all we want on what the New Kids will think of this or that, but the fact of the matter is we're all used to it by now and trying to get into the heads of the New Kids could come out with some extremely varied results. I don't know if I want to do that job myself (it seems sort of like VM/PM advertising, which is one of my pet peeves), though... sorry. XD
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I put up an announcement to try and get people to notice this thread. Even those members who post only in Poetry. But the announcement failed, so if we actually want things to happen, it's going to have to get drastic.
Which means that we might have to lean towards the annoyance side and drag those precious new members screaming and kicking into this thread to get their opinions on things. VMs and PMs might have to be sent out. I also think that another thing that might help is all you wonderful veterans not being around. Some of you might actually be busy, and that's fully understandable, but I'm not following the reasoning behind the fact that the FFL got many posts when things were fun, but helping out this section to not die is something people shy away from. So, for right now, the focus is going to be getting the opinions on those new people who haven't seen this thread for whatever reason. We need to show them that their opinion matters in this, so that they will post. How do we get them to come here? Who's with me in bothering the people? I volunteer because apparently my life is over. |
I'm in - bothering people is fun. =P Leastways I'll bug when I have time for it.
I also propose a sig campaign of sorts - sure announcement didn't work out but if a number of us promote the heck out of this thread then hopefully at least one person will wander in here... =/ Surely an old man dancing is attention grabbing for someone! (Also cheers for more feedback on the thread - I'll get back to that sometime). |
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Reading does'nt appeal to some pepole, and those who write stories enjoy what they do. Maybe they are reading the stories, but they're just to shy to admit it. And those who possibly have a enjoyable story might keep to themesleves. This is a problem in my class, the shy kid in the corner in the room that no one likes becuase of whatever has a story that would turn even my head. I'll get a story out there, but will it be read? |
Hm, bugging the new kids. I'll just save you the trouble, shall I? :P
Anyway. I haven't been around all that long, so I don't know much about... whatever you guys seem to think is going on, much like Breezy said in an earlier post. From what I gather after reading this thread and skimming the FFL and wherever else you've been discussing this, these are the core issues you are currently trying to address, details of any shiny new revamps aside: 1. The number and quality of fanfic reviews. Many stories are not getting reviews, and those reviews that are given are generally not of a very high quality. You're looking for an incentive that will encourage more frequent reviews, and possibly a way to improve the quality and usefulness of these reviews. 2. The running of the Fanfiction Lounge. First, it is a bazillion pages long and so supposedly looks scary to us poor little newblings. Second, apparently you are all prone to going horribly off-topic, ostensibly defeating the purpose of a "Fanfiction" Lounge intended for discussing, well, fanfiction. Third, um... something about "bold topics", I think? I can make an educated guess as to what you guys mean when you say that, though I'm not entirely sure what they are or what problems you're having with them. 3. New people don't seem to read the rules/stickies, resulting in rampant mistakes. Self-explanatory. And all of this talk about emblems, story-format rules threads and other stuff is essentially what you're tossing around as the solutions to these three basic problems. Am I right? Did I miss something? I guess what I'm saying is that, as a new person, I'm not entirely sure what sort of input I can give without a more thorough understanding of the alleged situation; I'd just like to make it absolutely clear before I say something stupid that you guys have already thought of or whatever. I'm sure you're all tired of repeating yourselves, but... is that the gist of what's going on? |
Pretty much.
1.) We're looking to see what could get people to review, and review in what means "constructive". There's a guide in the works that explains what a constructive review is (to fit in with that random rule that says "all reviews must be constructive) to help people along. There were just questions as to whether or not it would be beneficial to hand out rewards to those who review, to get more reviewers. So I guess it's like what Kipher asked. If someone posts a story, will it be read? And how can we get people to post reviews that make people want to post? But I guess the answer to that is what someone is looking for when posting their story. 2.) Yeah, the FFL lost the FF part because things became terribly crazy in there. (That's what prompted this change, actually.) No one was really talking about fanfiction. It was mostly posts that had inside jokes in them, so the entire thread was closed off to only a select few who understood the jokes. What the thread should be is a place where anyone can join in and discuss any aspect of fanfiction. Bold topics are essentially questions that people ask, and are placed in bold font to make it easy to see them and to separate question from answer. I'm not sure when that tradition started. Mine and An-chan's post show the positives and cons of bold topics. 3. Yeup. As a new person, the things you can tell us is what would make someone new review, join the discussions in the FFL, and what draws your eyes to the rules/stickies. Whatever you have to say, we'll hear it. And we are going in circles right now. That's why we need outside opinions to change things. |
That does clarify it, thanks. Now, let's see... I still have to think a little bit about the first two points, but here are my thoughts so far on the sticky/rules problem (convenient tl;dr at the end, for those of you wise enough to fear the Ungodly Walls of Text I am capable of churning out):
I can't really say what would make me want to read a rules thread because I simply always have. I've understood ever since my first forum experience years ago that forums have rules, that sometimes different sections have additional rules, and that those rules should be read first and respected from that point on. It just seems like common sense to me. That said, judging by the general stupidity that occurs on all forums, it apparently isn't common sense to everyone. So now you're looking for a way to make sure that these rules are not missed by anyone (or, at least, not missed by as many people). Annoying pop-ups, pairing newbies up with veterans, redesigning the rules so that they're more entertaining, etc.... you've suggested a lot of stuff, and a lot of those ideas do sound as though they have merit or could potentially sway a few members. The thing is, though, you can't do anything to ensure that people will read what you need them to. You all know that you're not capable of forcing anyone to do anything, and that even if you did manage to find some way to force redirects to the rules or whatever, you can't make them pay attention to it or take it to heart. You've already decided that such redirects aren't possible for Astinus to pull off without getting the admins to jury-rig something anyway, and that it's just going to make FF&W look more uptight and intimidating than the rest of the board if you do. In the end, the whole thing seems like a bit of a lost cause. So my suggestion is this: stop trying so hard. People like me who expect there to be rules to follow will find the rules and follow them, unless those rules aren't clearly marked in which case I'd hope that they'd know to find a mod or a veteran and ask. In fact, I'd argue that shuffling titles around or reformatting the rules or other stickies so that they resemble a story would only add further confusion. I could probably figure out that a sticky thread titled "Astinus's Adventures in the Rules Region" or whatever was something I should pay attention to, and I probably would click it out of curiosity, but I would come to the forum expecting to see "Fanfiction & Writing Rules" and all it would really do is throw me off for a moment. For someone who is legitimately newer to the concept and wouldn't expect there to be additional rules, well, I'm not sure it would help them much, either. Again, just "Rules Thread" is a lot more direct and to the point than an attempt to be witty. And for those people so oblivious or trollish that they just ignore sticky threads anyway... as Breezy and a few others have said, what's ultimately going to be so different about the new threads that you can guarantee you'll get those people to read them? If I skim past stickies and jump straight to the fanfics below, is it really going to matter that the title I skim past is "Adventures in Rules Region" instead of "Rules Thread"? I just don't think curiosity is going to net quite as many new rules-readers as some of you seem to be banking on. I mean, you guys seem like you're having a lot of fun with the story-based rules thread idea, and I don't want to discourage you from doing it at all--I just think that clarity and directness will serve you better in the long run. It'd be a lot simpler if you just had a standard rules thread that outlined the guidelines and consequences for breaking them in a concise, upfront manner, and then provided the story thread as supplemental material that could potentially drive it home, or maybe serve as additional entertainment that might be a lighter refresher after said standard rules. And if, after all that effort you put into being clear and concise, people still fail to follow the rules... well, that's their problem, not yours. The ignorance of others is no reason to tear your hair out over potential redesigns and "WHY THEY NOT READ THREAD". Newbies are newbies and idiots are idiots. Someone suggested giving out warnings or infractions for people who don't read the rules, and I guess most of you seem to think that it sounds harsh, but in the end these people are not following the rules. When you do not follow the rules you get into trouble. Perhaps handing out an actual infraction, especially a permanent one, is too much, but I hardly think it's harsh to just tell someone "hey, it doesn't look like you read the rules and I suggest you do so before continuing". Keep the rules short, sweet and clear. Make it obvious what people need to read before attempting to contribute. The first time that someone fails to do so and it seems to be a legitimate mistake, just give them a little nudge in the right direction--a post in the offending thread or perhaps a quick PM/VM, maybe with a link to the rules in case they somehow managed to miss it. Make sure that it's clear exactly what they did wrong, too. I understand that it can get annoying after the million-and-fifth person has made the same mistake again, and the temptation to be snarky or just out-and-out lock the thread or infract them is great--I see it all the time on a forum I mod at--but it honestly doesn't help. What if the person made a genuine mistake and didn't realize that one million and four people made it before them? Snapping at them or locking their thread off the bat just sends a confusing message and makes you look that much scarier. (I'm not sure how often that actually happens here and don't mean to call anyone out, but just in case.) If they make a mistake a second time after being told directly that they should pay attention to the stickies, though, or if what they're doing appears to be deliberate, then I would be all in favor of more drastic action. When it comes to something as simple and obvious as reading a rules thread, you don't need more than a single second chance. You're either intelligent enough to take the hint and shape up, or you're stupid enough that you need to get out and stop disrupting things. In the case of my forum I am restructuring the rules, but only because I feel it's actually necessary. The stringent requirements the other mods and I had for that section were just plain stupid, and while people do need to learn to read the rules it will be simpler in the long run if we just clean them up. In FF&W's case, on the other hand, I don't feel that any sort of drastic rules overhaul is necessary at all. I for one don't object to a single rule you've already outlined, nor do I think that the way those rules are presented is at all unclear or confusing. Rewrite them a little bit if you want, but don't turn the thread into something so foreign and unexpected that it throws people off. If you want to go to the admins about making it more visible, see if there's a hack or something that will make the rules thread always appear as though it is unread, or at least let you use bold formatting or something in the title. The admin of the board I mod at has posted rules in most of her forums, and even after reading those threads the title always appears in boldface. This probably wouldn't be much of an issue if PC didn't have it set so that all unread threads are marked as read after your session expires, because then it would genuinely appear unread to anyone who hadn't viewed it, but the setting is what it is and so I guess you'd need to find a way to work around that. Alternatively, keeping the rules, or at least a link to/mention of them, in a permanent announcement could help as well. Sure, announcements don't appear as unread threads and that is annoying, but at least it's something that is visually separated from the main mass of other threads and so has a chance of standing out just long enough to catch someone's attention. As for other sticky threads... again, I really just think that clarity is key. Most of them probably aren't as necessary for enjoying the FF&W experience as the rules are, so I'd argue that some of them don't need to be as visible (though you'd obviously want to cut down on unnecessary duplicate threads). It would probably help some to reduce the number of sticky threads to the absolute minimum (not sure how hard this will be) so that the amount of OMG IMPORTANTS information doesn't look so intimidating. Keeping the links to important/helpful threads and resources in the rules is a good idea, and a unified resources thread, as has been suggested, probably wouldn't go amiss either. tl;dr: Don't worry about trying to guess at what makes a rules thread "interesting" to new people. Rules threads are not meant to be entertaining, however fun it might be. They are meant to provide clear guidance to new or confused members, and that original goal should not be lost. The best thing you can do to help people understand is to give them what they know and make its meaning as immediate as possible. That's what anyone intelligent would expect, and if they're too dumb to notice that then it's their problem. They shouldn't need more than a single gentle nudge to get their act together. (Incidentally, this is probably the longest post you will ever see me make here. actually write fanfiction what is this "actually write fanfiction" of which you speak) |
Rep needs to come back so I can +rep you.
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The two rules that people tend to break the most in this section are the "all fanfics must be readable" and "post constructive criticism". This is where this topic got distracted because it was determined that there's no clear definition as to what "readable" and "constructive" means. That's all discussed here, so you can see what has been said on that matter already. Quote:
So what there probably needs to be is an idea as to how to enforce the rules without scaring new members who might not know better away. Fanfiction isn't a black and white matter. So how can we enforce those rules without making people afraid to post their stories or reviews? Quote:
Thanks a lot for posting, btw. This'll help. |
Screw work
This is probably going off on a tangent, but I really can’t see anything that I can add on the matter of stickies that Delusions hasn’t. Quote:
Anyway, I’ve been mulling over what Jax said in regards to mice and cheese or something along those lines and it got me to wondering if what we really need to stop us all going off on a tangent in the FFL and start reviewing in the F&W is for our so called veterans to get some work done to encourage newbies. I mean, we’ve been sitting here constantly bringing up the solution of a MASSIVE OVERHAUL in current member mentality –I’ve been guilty of this too if I recall correctly—or finding a method to get members to inherently not act cliquey in social threads, but no one has really come up with an implementable solution to this problem rather than mention it in passing. For instance, has anyone actually studied SPPf to find out why it’s so successful –so to speak, because I haven’t been to Serebii-- in comparison to F&W? Anyway, I’m proposing that once everything’s settled, as in everyone or a sizeable majority of us aren’t off doing IRL work, then we might actually want to start on this massive overhaul, so to speak. I mean, a shiny new FFL with clear guidelines is nice and all, but what really determines how a non-trolling noob behaves is how people who post before him act. It really doesn’t matter how clearly you state, “No going off on a tangent” as one of the rules in the first post if the vets don’t abide those rules. Particularly when a thread like that reaches forty posts or so, people start to ignore the first, guideline post. Also, the whole issue on asking the new kids on what they feel is the matter with the FFL will work, no arguments there, but even if we did find out why they’d post in the first place, who’s going to act on it if the vets don’t? The same with reviews. We keep telling each other to do reviews, but we don’t actually do that many/enough to begin with. It seems hypocritical till we take into consideration that most of us have lives and RL work to attend to so now we’re trying to encourage newbs to also do more reviews or at least do better ones. This, to me, kind of feels like we’re passing the ‘problem baton’ really. As with the mouse analogy, if the vets actually started reviewing, hopefully sometime in the next two months or at least during the summer (winter to our friends down south) holidays, it could act as a kick start to the activity in the F&W in general. What we need is a barrage of daily, consistent reviews to get people to think, “hey, maybe I can do that too”. Right now, the scattered (Good) reviews that receive praise from the active community don’t cancel out the horrible one-liners that seem so rampant as of late. One more thing we might want to consider is, ‘what makes reviewing fun in the first place’ and if the childlike mentality of PC is ready to act mature in the F&W forums. That last part is unavoidable seeing as this is a Pokémon Community (and rep was disabled due to that), but veterans might, as stated earlier, be able to change that by maintaining PC’s F&W status quo at a high level. On another note, I think it’s ironic that the very definition of the infinitive of ‘lounge’ in ‘Fanfiction Lounge’ is to pass time idly or to act in a relaxed manner… That however, is besides the point. What I’m actually worried about here is the many different uses of the lounge that seem to be flying about as of late. In this thread and in the FFL itself. An-Chan touched upon this, but she was talking about bold-topics in general so I’m not really sure if what I say has any bearing here but here goes. In my own perspective, I’m neither a newbie, seeing as I’ve been here too long to be one, nor a veteran, since I haven’t been here long enough to be considered one. However, one thing I noticed was that the lounge, apart from the general randomness or friendly discussions befitting of the DCC, is that it basically acted as a ‘Quick Q&A thread’ for fanfiction –since most questions don’t qualify for their own threads. A few people have said that we should just start the FFL anew and generally be less jerk-like to newbs who venture in for writing tips. This then creates the atmosphere where we don’t blow off newbs who want info on writing and everyone’s happy. Right? Not really since then we have what I just said, a ‘Quick Q&A thread’ with possibly some discussion and that doesn’t create a friendly atmosphere, just a mechanical, semi-competitive one. On the matter of discussion, we could have a lounge where we abolish bold topics and just have long-winded discussions on the mechanics of literature, but this tends to turn off newbies because they’ll be scared away by the lengthy discussions and not to mention that without bold topics to clarify the topic, vets just love going ADD all over the place. Basically, a compromise is in order. Any suggestions as to whether we want a bold topic Q&A thread, which is somewhat mechanical and unfriendly, or a non-bold topic lounge that requires the reading of every post and tends to turn cliquey? I’m open to alternate suggestions too. |
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In other words, basically, the reason why the project keeps flailing is this. Someone points out there's a problem and asks how it might be fixed. Said someone might even throw in suggestions. Everyone else misses the point of the suggestions/questions and aims straight for throwing in suggestions on the projects while going further and further away from the reason why we're trying to change things in the first place. ...And then someone else comes along and points out the problems again as if we didn't already know what the problems were, and we start back at square one. I don't mean to be biting or anything, but it's been a few months since these threads and this discussion's started. Where have we gone, exactly? Nowhere because we keep forgetting the main point of the project. Quote:
Basically, from what I can tell, the forums over at SPPf are divided into two categories: 1. Story forums (including a separate one for non-Pokemon fic). 2. Discussion forum. The discussion forum has no FFL. Instead, all discussion ends up on separate threads, so you're forced to be on-topic anyway or risk getting your thread closed. (There's even a special thread for the discussion of story ideas, but it's only for that.) So, because there's no clique thread in the writer's lounge, people who end up in there are actually there for the writing. They're there to trade tips, read, review, and post. They're not there to hang out and tell each other about their day. In other words, the difference between SPPf and this place is that SPPf has a writing community. PC's writing forum just sort of misses the point and ends up being a general community, even though we've got another place for that. That and, again, people feel compelled to review more, in part because SPPf touts itself as being a community with high standards in terms of writing (which is true) and in part because, again, the people who are there are there for the writing. As for the mouse and cookie stuff, yeah, we know this already, so I'll just fast forward. Quote:
In other words, the main question PMR is trying to ask is why isn't our activity directed towards the parts of the forum that actually matters, and how do we get it to go there? As in, how do we get people to get off their rears and actually connect with each other instead of just sitting around like we had at the beginning of the year? Quote:
tl;dr, yes, Mizan, you kinda pointed out... the exact point the project was trying to say for months. That being said, because we keep on saying the same things over and over again (i.e., you're not alone in the "we're missing the point and/or restating the project's goal/Jax's original rant" boat), I've decided to end this series of wallbangers and come out with some clear things about the project: 1. Yes, our main concern is about communication. The main goal of PMR is figuring out how to get the older members of the board to connect with the newer members. 2. Yes, I do believe we can make things work by example, but we need to get the older members to do something. That's where the main weakness of this community lies, and that's what these projects have been trying to target. 3. No, we're not doing the rules-story thing. We've decided it wouldn't work. 4. If nothing's done in a month, mod powers or no, I'm going to start going around to regulars' profiles and beating them with sticks to get them to review. Furthermore, I've never really posted my thoughts on what would work and what wouldn't. I've mostly been pointing out faults, asking questions, and compiling ideas that you've been coming up with. Because, seriously, we need to get something done, I figure I'm just going to say it right now. FFL Here's a thought. Why not close the FFL? Seriously. As I've said before, there's been forums out there that have gotten along just fine without them. SPPf, for example, just has discussions about writing in separate threads. Even if we get minor questions here and there, we at least make full use of the fact that the Writer's Lounge is -- gasp -- a forum and something that can't actually be hurt by repetitiveness now and then. (God knows the actual FFL suffered from that now and then. Oh, bold topics. You and your tendency to ask the same questions over and over again on occasion.) If their question's been answered, we can just politely point them to the search function. Point is, how do we get rid of a clique atmosphere and all this dead-end arguing about whether or not we should have bold topics in the FFL? By not having the FFL. Sure, if we feel the need to have a casual place for writing-related discussion or a simple questions kind of place, we can make a thread for that later, but why don't we just create threads we've already worked out and that we definitely need for the time being, you know? Will it hurt the community atmosphere? Probably not any more than the crap that went on in the FFL. People will at least be encouraged to actually post threads and look at something other than a single thread in the writing forums, and we'd be forced to connect with authors by getting out in the main forum and commenting on what they have to say. Standards As I've said repeatedly, the regulars need to review to define what the forum standards are. I'm thinking maybe we should forget the reviewing guide and just see how it goes for now. Or, I can just write the guidelines right now, and they can be these: 1. You're there to help the author by offering honest feedback to their work. 1a. i.e. Point out specific parts of their story you liked or didn't like. Also, don't be a jerk. Snark is not a proper way to review. 2. Reviews don't have to be constructive criticism all the way through. Likewise, they don't have to rip apart a story line by line. A review can be as short as a paragraph as long as you point out specific parts of a story and say what you thought about them. 3. In other words, one-liner reviews aren't much, especially if you just say, "I like it! Please write more!" That doesn't help the author because it says you couldn't pay attention to what's going on in the story. 4. Look up your stuff before commenting on it. Google is your friend. Use it before pointing out stuff that doesn't look right. (This includes alternate spellings or just general fact-checking.) 4a. For that matter, you don't have to capitalize Pokémon names that serve as common nouns (e.g., the pikachu). You just have to be consistent with your capitalization rules. 5. Writers, be courteous to your reviewers. They took the time to wade through your crap, so please don't call their review crap. Listen carefully to what they're trying to say. Think about it. Try their suggestions. Don't blow them off. That means you're not open to criticism, and if you're posting in an open forum for people you've never met, it can be assumed that you are, by default, looking for criticism. In other words, if you blow off a reviewer, respond with hostility, or act condescendingly to your audience, WTF are you doing posting your work on a forum? 6. Proofread before posting. It makes your reviewers less likely to want to strangle your kittens. 6a. There are no exceptions to this rule. You're writing. Play by grammatical rules. Bending the rules all over the place and then trying to say that you're being artistic about them just makes you look like you were too lazy to proofread. 6b. The above rule also applies to canon, characterization, et cetera. Just because it's fiction doesn't necessarily mean you can get away with murder. If your audience points out it doesn't work, chances are, it doesn't work. And probably a few other things that I can't remember right now. Rules They're fine as-is. The only shady one might be the aforementioned standards one, but I'm leaving that discussion open. Speaking of open discussions, again, just leave the rules open. The more frequently people post questions about the rules to the thread, the more we can just define things that way/keep the thread marked unread so people would actually be more likely to stumble across it. Regulars' Activity This is the core problem we were having. The problem that the emblems were supposed to solve, the vet-newbie mentoring thing was supposed to solve, and so on and so forth. Clearly, no one can figure out how to go about solving it. I've tossed around ideas that don't involve me stalking your profiles and threatening your kittens and ideas that don't involve a NaReWriMo thing happening. Honestly, I've got nothing. Likewise, I know that if I go out there and review, you lot will be sitting around in here. Yes, Mizan, it's lovely that you pointed out the problems again and that you're giving us a pep talk, but you haven't really pointed out any way to actually encourage us to do what you're saying instead of sit around and be hypocritical again, which is really what we keep doing and which is why I don't even know about this project anymore. Point is, we've considered emblems. We've considered mentoring programs. We've considered reviewing contests. We've even considered just telling people to review. If we want the community to change, it's really got to be a community effort. The only thing I've got left is one last incentive idea. It's not a contest or a personal challenge. It's just a request that everyone submit one review a day for one month. We could start in June, and yes, I'm just asking for one review. Considering what I've said earlier about reviews, this shouldn't be too difficult, so don't whine at me that you don't want to do it. If you've got enough time to post in these kinds of threads, you've got enough time to sit down and read someone's four-page chapter to say something to them. Stickies Screw it. Nobody cares. Let's just do the standards-by-example method like we've been talking about. The rules should stay, of course, because some people are sane. I just think we need to keep the sticky count to a minimum and divert our attention to the meat of the community. As evidenced by the announcement Astinus made, it'd be more effective if we actually walked out and sat down with newbies. Or in even shorter terms: 1. No more FFL. The Writer's Lounge is our discussion place. 2. Fewer stickies. 3. Rules are left as-is but are opened to let the thread become a discussion thread. (This also means we don't have to go to the admins to install a script. It's an easier solution to looking for hacks or asking the PC admins to create one for us.) 4. Regulars enforce the rules through example, thereby establishing a set of standards. 5. Don't be stupid when it comes to reviewing. (See above abridged guide.) 6. Submit one review a day for a month. Don't make Jax break out the kitten bat. There. There's things we can do. Unless you've got a really good reason for objecting to them, how about we stop screwing around and actually try some of these ideas to see how they work? At the very worst, we'll just be back here to create a thread we need on the fly. |
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I have to say, though, I do find those rules a little... unusual. None of the other forums I've seen have any actual rules about the quality of posted works or the fact that all comments must be constructive, though PC is the first large-scale forum I've decided to be properly active on so it might be more common than I realize. Where I come from authors who post unreadable badfic usually just get advice about how to improve from people who know what they're talking about. One-liners or short comments are allowed as long as the people who make them aren't dumb enough to claim that they're constructive criticism when they clearly aren't. Such things are discouraged, yeah, but no one gets warned just because they posted "I really like it!" or gets their thread locked because there are no line breaks between their paragraphs. I usually don't see fic threads get locked unless a fight breaks out between the author and the reviewers--this invariably happens because the author is in fact terrible in the first place, but that's not the direct reason for the lock. I wonder if people coming from other forums just aren't accustomed to that sort of response? That said, if it's in the rules then it's in the rules and people should still abide by what the rules say, however different it may or may not be (again, I wouldn't know). And they're definitely good rules if you need to have them, because I know I certainly appreciate concrit more than "post moar yay", so I don't have a problem with them. So I suppose it just comes back to making sure the rules are read, and... wow it's pretty easy to go in circles, isn't it? :/ ...I have no idea whether that actually moved the discussion forward at all but! My two cents, I guess. EDIT: Aahahaha it actually took so long for me to write the above that Jax's post "ninja'd" me by twenty minutes. ><; Gah I hate that and uh let me read it now. |
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Or some of them, anyway. Basically, yeah, it was kinda an elitist thing to do, so we decided to just go about the entire help-people-by-reviewing-them-in-the-main-forum shindig. Also, it meant Asty had less to worry about anyway. I mean, if we used that thing, she'd have to comb through all those stories by herself and figure out what needs to be sent there and what doesn't. Other than that, I actually agree that maybe we should stop trying so hard (because we haven't gotten anywhere these past months in our attempts to actually try anyway). You also come from an interesting forum. So, here's my thoughts. We could keep the rules as-is, but we could say Asty doesn't have to lock unless it's breaking a rule that's explicitly defined in the rules already. Other than that, we could just stick to the standards-shaped-by-advice thing you've brought up. It encourages a writing community's spirit, doesn't chase away newbies, and means less work for Asty. Or, in shorter terms, pretty much yes to that "if it's in the rules, then Asty can close, but if not, just leave it to the people who gently say you're doing it wrong" sentiment. If we get a troll out of it, then eh. We could just use the post report button to get Asty to take care of it. No big deal there, probably. As for the prevalence of rules, yeah, a lot of bigger communities are like that. The no-script rule, for example, really is a standard (on most Pokémon fic boards, at least, as well as Fanfiction.net) because of how something like that tends to be seen as an option for authors to throw together a story in five minutes without much effort. In general, the reason why rules like these exist here and not elsewhere is because it's easier to run smaller communities. Smaller communities either have everyone pitching in to shape the community or get away with defining what the board's standards are just by what little fic gets on it. Bigger places like these end up with general rules because without them and without a community working together to help incoming authors out, standards fluctuate wildly. That's all that's really behind that. *shrug* |
Oh, no, I wasn't suggesting reusing the Revision Bin; I'd already seen comments about ditching it entirely anyway. I was more curious than anything.
It's really more the concept of all the fics having to adhere to a standard in the first place that's a little foreign to me (and apparently just me *shrug*). Given that the standards are more or less "make your fic readable" there's nothing unreasonable about that, but... I guess what I'm wondering is how you're differentiating between deliberate lack of effort and actual inexperience. If someone craps out something terrible in five minutes and expects to be taken seriously, well, no. But if they really just didn't know any better... no, it isn't up to the standard yet, but they're looking for advice to bring it up to the standard given enough time, and that doesn't necessarily deserve a lock in my book. Everyone has to start somewhere, and the term "standard", in my head, seems to imply some sort of cutoff where you have to be this good to enter. Maybe it's just the terminology I'm taking issue with, feh. Which basically echoes some of what you said, so. I think it's overall a little more welcoming with just the polite advice for completely newbish authors. grawr I'm tired and probably shouldn't post until I can be coherent. Oh well. |
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Anyway, my answer to that is basically we'll have to risk it at first because you're right. We won't know until we see more of the author. If the author snaps back at a gentle push (an actual gentle push, even, not the analytical stuff) and/or if the author shows absolutely no interest in improving, we could probably call troll then. (Alternatively, if the author is writing about Ash selling his Pikachu for crack or something equally ridiculous, that's probably a troll, too.) But other than that, we should probably just assume the "didn't know any better" route and review it accordingly, yeah. |
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h, I'll just be lazy and instead of quoting too much say I like those written up standards as they basically cover it all, I'v said what little could really need changing imo in the rules thread (and leaving them open won't be bad or anything imo). Also yes to having them permanently bold or something if that is possible - I quite like that idea. Quote:
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I agree with the action over yapping sentimentality. =D |
I've been idling here for awhile. Whoops.
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We also usually have someone who is a decent/known/veteran reviewer circulating the forum. I myself usually take the time to sit down and review a few stories every few days. Nothing too drastic or headache inducing. Even if they're not super detailed reviews, it still shows a new member that someone is interested in their work or interested in helping them improve. Pretty much, SPPf can be summed up in having threads that everyone can respond to and having a decent reviewer circle the main forum every now and then to set an example and to show new members that there are people interested in reading new stories. You also don't have to review blitz the heck out of your forum either. Building a reputation for a forum takes awhile, so it's more about being consistent and having a veteran name circulate the main forum for awhile to show that yes, a known member is interested in the rest of the community. As for guides ... I don't know. SPPf doesn't really have any, and we seem to do okay on quality because we do have decent fics as examples and decent reviewers out there (yar, the whole setting the example thing again). We do have a sticky (Advice for Aspiring Authors) that has vague guidelines and tips. It's also open so other members can post in their own writing tips without having to create their own thread. Guides are helpful, though, past the reviewer's advice and if the author wants to know more about something. There ye go. Not sure if that info was any helpful but ... yeah. |
Quickie response, but:
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Maybe even a plot bunny thread if we really want to go the SPPf route (to avoid having people go "lol wut about my story idea" and nothing else), although this is optional. It'd be useful to discuss story ideas, get feedback, and stir up inspiration (especially if we add in that guide you wrote for it), but we could also just let kids create separate threads to encourage more discussion in WL as a whole. Other than that, we could just create threads as we need them and, in the meantime, encourage people to ask questions about anything in WL. (Like if someone needs grammar advice, they could just create a thread to ask about it, for example.) If we feel that something would be better explained if we just wrote a full-on guide about it, then sure, we can sit down and do it later. |
The way I see it, the number of stickies in a new/revamped forum is sort of like the number of actual forums on a new/revamped message board. Common advice given to new administrators is to keep the number of forums down to the absolute minimum--you don't need to separate a gaming forum out into twelve different subforums for each current console/system plus computer games and other technology, especially if that's not even the primary focus of your message board. It just looks cluttered and empty. A simple "Video Games" forum will usually suffice, and then if you notice that your board has a large number of PS3 players who get annoyed when their topics mix in with the general stuff, you can create a PS3 subforum for them at that point.
So yes, I agree that the Lounge should be kept largely open, not much more than the beta reader thread stickied at first. See if there's a demand for something before you jump the gun and create it when it might not be needed after all. |
Yeah, I agree with holding back on guides for now and creating stickies if it seems necessary. Looking at your writer's lounge now, the threads mainly consist of "plot help" topics, so making a plot bunny/fic idea wouldn't be that useless. But even then, you don't really need it right away.
I would say keep the beta thread sticky, the rules thread (obviously), and that one thread that links to grammar guides. Leave the last one open, too, just in case someone needs a certain rule to be explained further. Actually, I do have a question that's somewhat off topic. What happened to the Fanfiction of the Month thing? Is that no longer happening? I know there's an fanfiction archive for stories "that have been recognized to be outstanding" (is this for finished fics, btw, or just any story recognized to be well written?). Is it not used anymore, like the Revision Bin? |
So I've decided I may as well give some of my opinions, as I'm getting a new laptop at the end of June and will therefore be able to write stories and reviews. Not good reviews, but reviews nonetheless.
I'm typing on an iPod, so if you guys don't mind me putting the issues in bold as opposed to quoting them, that would be nice. As it's really hard to deal with a touch keyboard while copying and pasting. No more FFL. The Writer's Lounge is our discussion place. This is a very nice idea. The FFL, I'd say, nearly killed the entire board because the argument was used by a lot of users that if they wanted to ask a question about writing, they could just throw it into a bold topic in the FFL instead of starting a thread. I was guilty of that, I'll admit. If you got rid of the FFL, it's possible the sub-forum would receive a lot of new threads based on what we would have discussed in the FFL. and yeah, I'm saying 'we' because it's okay to pretend it's still 2008. And then, you know, it might also destroy the feeling of 'cliqueness' a lot of us having been feeling around this board for the last few months. Fewer stickies. Lots of stickies are daunting. Not a lot? Not daunting. It's all cool. All I can think of is the rules... I know a lot of you were talking about having an adventure story featuring Astinus in which one rule would be dealt with per chapter (Rekky: professional lurker), but honestly, I've gotta say I don't think it'd work. Sure it sounds great, and I'm sure everyone would have fun making it... But the newbies who aren't reading the stickies now? Giving them something much longer where they'll probably have to read 3 A4 pages' worth of words just to find one rule... am I the only one seeing a flaw with that? Just give the rules in quick bullet points. Everyone loves bullet points. Regulars enforce the rules through example, thereby establishing a set of standards. This is silly. Personally I'd expect everybody who's posting in this thread, looking for ways to innovate this forum, to be already doing this. And not because they have a duty but because that's what they do. Don't be stupid when it comes to reviewing. (See above abridged guide.) Keep JX Valentine's reviewing guide stickies, but move it to the main forum. It's more likely more people will pay attention to it then. I'd nominate the idea of handing out infractions to repeat offenders (people who keep posting one-liner reviews or just don't give constructive criticism at all), but I hate infractions with a passion so I'll refrain. Submit one review a day for a month. Don't make Jax break out the kitten bat. I highly doubt anyone could pull that off. Why not bring in the monthly prompt thing that we had going on ages ago? That was fun, and loads of people took part every month. More people write, more people review. It's a working system. My fingers are starting to feel dull from all these electro-magnetic pulses so I'm going to stop typing now. |
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And this is why I say we need to stop PMR right now and actually go with the plan I've outlined. Because all too often, people keep bringing up the same points over and over again, either because they're not reading the latest parts of the discussion all the way through or because there's something about the WL that encourages people to argue themselves into circles. I don't mean to be biting at all, but really, guys, we've been talking about this since March. It's really annoying to keep folding back on issues we've already gone over. Quote:
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As I've said ages ago, we have no problem with forum activity on the writers' end of things. Just look at the first page of the main forum. Fifteen different stories, and they've all been updated within the past two days. Where we're falling short is with the reviewers. Writers are posting, but we don't have enough quality reviewers replying. (*motions to the number of threads that have less than five replies*) So, no, it's not a working system because, well, it hasn't worked here. No one seems to want to answer the question of why people don't review despite having plenty of material to go over. They just don't, and that's the problem PMR was supposed to be solving (because it ties in with the clique atmosphere as well). As for whether or not people can write a review a day, unless you happen to be bogged down with work (which may be unlikely for those of us on summer break), it's plausible because of what I said earlier about reviews. Reviews don't have to be massive analytical shindigs. They just have to be a paragraph stating what you thought of the chapter/story/whatever with specific details (e.g., references to specific events in the chapter) thrown in to show you're paying attention. This, of course, is a minimum. You can make it longer than that, but it's really not necessary. And if you can't sit down, read a five-page chapter (which seems to be the average length), and write a short paragraph on it even though you have enough time to look through this thread and write a response, then I'm going to have to say there's an issue here, and it's not with the request. |
FFL has been closed. The rules rewrite thread has been closed.
And Breezy said what I could have said about SPPf. (I'm a member there as well.) It's the same thing with BMGf. There's not even a sub-forum for authors to ask questions about writing, but there are reviewers for the stories posted there. People get out and review. I'm going to start tonight by reviewing a story. Though I'm not going to be happy if I'm the only one reviewing. Quote:
The Archive houses the fics that won Fanfiction of the Month previously. But it, like the Revision Bin, is not in use. |
Well, I will admit that I don't have much to say on this topic, and I really haven't yet - I haven't objected to any of the major ideas that have been around for a while ('for a while' meaning, of course, the initial response of "WHAT CLOSE THE FFL NOOOOO"). I do, however, understand that the sticky problem is definitely unhelpful - and, just to try and get a solution out there, is there any way that we could condense the various stickies into one thread? Or to shave off some of the unnecessary ones, at least? For example, I think we can safely un-sticky and move the Pokémon Fanfiction Challenge that hasn't been looked at since two years ago. Having a dated sticky, as well as making the whole thing look generally more daunting - which is exactly what we're trying to stop - also makes us look like an either inactive community or one that doesn't really care about what it looks like. (Yes, I know I'm making a big deal out of this image thing; blame my father for bringing me up that way.)
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Meh, Yooyuball can wait. |
I'll admit it. Marcin's dancing old man attracted me to this thread.
Anyway, if you guys need any H-Staff assistance, I'll be willing to offer my assistance. Like if you need some restructuring/adding of sub-forums/whatever that needs to be approved in HQ first, I don't mind being your lackey. This was the forum that actually brought me to the Pokecommunity in the first place and I'd love to see this place super duper active again. I'll admit that my attention span at the moment is pretty limited so if you all could give me a short-ish summary of what you're looking do, the problems with the forum in the past and anything else I need to know. I have a knack for fixing up forums on here (Strategies & Movesets, DPPt to an extent) and would love to help you guys as well. |
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I guess as mentioned by people before the main things that would need changing about would involve removing the not-used-for-years-and-is-pointless-according-to-grand-plans Revision Bin section... as for the fanfic archive that may need more discussion - IMO I'm for it being a place where completed fics go (because it'd be nice to have them stored as a memento and tribute to the author for finishing something, particularly with chaptered fics - and if one wants to bring back the fan fic of the month thing then that could always be done as well I guess easily enough... =/) And also as Delusions of Originality said, would the following be possible: Quote:
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Do you know how difficult it is to read your posts seriously when there's an old man's butt wiggling in my face?
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Yes, I'm picky. But aside from those nitpicks there, I can't think of anything to add/take out/clean up with those posts. btw, anyone know about the resource list Dagzar was collecting? I'd like something to replace Elite Overlord LeSabre's thread before I de-sticky it. |
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But cheers for the mistakes which don't seem nitpicky to me (well the random repetition thing leastways - lolwut did I do there). |
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Personally, I don't think that TR's Rockin' needs to be up there. Oh, I love the site and it was a godsend when I was working on the MissingNo. chapters, but I don't think that everyone needs to know about old glitches. Not many people choose to include those in their stories, I've noticed, and it seems a little too specific to be useful for most people. Unless I'm mistaken, there are a couple of guides there on writing fanfiction, so you may want to link to the site as a whole and list it as "guide resource/Glitch encyclopedia/time waster akin to TV Tropes but with cosplay". [shrugs]
EDIT: Agreeing with Delusions in that Veekun should be added, but I've never used Psypokes. That said, should we list TV Tropes? On one hand, it is a valuable and witty resource of the conventions of writing, story, and character, but it is also an extraordinarily fun time waster as I mentioned before. Is it important enough? |
That looks like an excellent list to me. I might add that veekun and Psypokes tend to be slightly more reliable than Serebii as far as pokédexes go, since they give more detail and are a bit more accurate (there are exceptions); they also have handy search and sort features that are nice even if you prefer sticking to the green 'dex. If you're looking for a pokémon that's a certain size, belongs to a certain egg group, learns a certain move and was introduced in a specific generation, it's hard to beat veekun's search--I use it all the time. And now I feel like a walking advertisement, but yeah... custom search = fic author's godsend.
I wonder... anyone think that links to word processors and other such stuff might be useful? I don't know that it'd alleviate the "typing the fic into the post box" problem, because I'll eat my laptop if most of those people don't have Word or at least TextEdit or something on their local machine, but maybe some distraction-free writing tools like DarkRoom? Google Docs or Buzzword, which could potentially make sharing with beta readers and the like a little easier? (Write or Die? :p) |
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Link to veekun and Psypokes. I had something to say on the other half of your post, but I'm way too tired to be coherent. |
Mm, well... I guess I could just post some links anyway, and then you guys can add 'em or don't.
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y/n/m? |
Well, what we have now looks like a perfectly competent list of websites to me. Don't forget we can always add sites to the thread later if they pop up or we somehow forget about them. As for me, I have no recommendations apart from what I already gave to Dagzar about a month ago, and the list hasn't gotten bigger since then. XD I still rely on Word 2003 and the supplied-with-computer wonders of Microsoft Works Word Processor (which is exactly like Word without a quite so aesthetically pleasing layout).
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Sliding in one last shameless rec to add to the list if I may:
http://www.studio-revolution.net/summary.php - Reviewing and You, everything you ever wanted to know about reviewing but were afraid to ask. (Includes a guide on how to get reviews as well as how to do the entire review exchange thing civilly.) Compared to the current sticky, it's refined, reorganized, and even a little rewritten at some parts. I'm just too lazy to code the thing (and, on top of that, I was wondering if it'd help to minimize the amount of stickies even further so attention could be drawn to the links thread and the beta thread). On the other hand, if it's better off actually as a thread on the forums, sure, I can do that too. Just say the word, really. Otherwise, the list looks ready to be posted, in my opinion. Personally, I think the list of addendum links Delusions is offering is a nice touch. While it might not encourage newbie writers to stop writing their fic in the reply box, it gives experienced writers (the people who most likely read stickies anyway) rather snazzy alternatives to using Microsoft Word (or whatever Mac users are into). |
So who's going to launch the list? I'm assuming it's Dagzar, but Astinus may want to do it.
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Technically, the job to compile and post the list was given to Dagzar, so yeah.
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Well, right now, the only sticky we have is the Beta Finder thread. Imagine just one more thread stickied with it, and that's all we're going to have.
It's probably better than the six(?) stickies we had before, with two separate writing guides, the guide to a good fic, the FFL, and who knows what else there was. |
Maybe we should just have a subsection titled "Writer's Resources" for all that stuff. After all, a large box with "RESOURCES" on it is kinda harder to ignore than a link in a thread.
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Not to mention I'm not sure if anyone would go into a forum just for guides to read through them. The reason why we're doing a sticky of links is because we acknowledge the fact that a lot of people don't actually read guides or stickies or anything like that. Those who do might find the links handy or can at least find resources to link to in their reviews (if they don't just link to the massive list).
Also, to extend on something I think Dagzar might be implying, making a forum dedicated to guides would mean someone would have to write said threads. In which case, uh, raise your hand if you want to set aside hours of your life cooking up detailed guides and trying to get people to look over them for accuracy and whatnot. 'Cause I can't really say how many people would actually be dedicated enough to do that (although I can safely say I'm too lazy for it). We could perhaps create a redirection link in the subforum list that directs to the resource list. (You can see an example of this with PC's rules.) That could attract attention to it, although, again, the thread's more for the people who would actually read stickies anyway. Personally, if anything, I think we could try the redirection trick for the forum rules themselves -- but only if we're actually going to work on the subforums (read: prune them) anyway. Then again, how many people read PC's overall rules, either? |
Considering we have a lengthy list of stuff already, I was just throwing ideas around. |D Or we could compile a lot of the smaller ones - the text itself, not a link - into a single thread or... yeah, I'm not helping, am I? :| Sorry I can't be more helpful. Hopefully with the quickly-approaching summer vacation I can get some guide-writing done. [goes to stalk to-do list since her project was presumably ditched]
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Alright, I've posted the resource thread. If you see absolutely anything wrong with it, feel free to rip me a new one.
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Because, well, to be blunt: it's either guide-writing or review-writing. And maybe if more reviews are written, we could see what guides could be added. As for to-do lists, I'm finally going through and just doing plain clean-up mod work. The Poetry rules thread has been updated, the F&W rules have been fixed up to reflect changes made from this project, and now I'm going to update the Fanfiction Index. Because that hasn't been done in a long while. (Not blaming Bay at all, since she had, y'know, real life.) |
Hey, Astinus, while you're in the fic index... do you think Bay Alexison would be horribly offended if you removed that bright yellow background? I had to highlight the entire post to be able to read anything that wasn't quoted the last time I looked at it. The color is painfully bright on a dark style, and said dark styles usually have light-colored text, so... yeah. :/ It's not the end of the world, but it sure would be nice if it were universally readable without highlighting/changing styles temporarily.
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Already on top of it. Bay's the CSS expert out of the two of us (I only know how to make font blink), and we'll find colors that work well together to make the Index usable.
Because yeah, I'm using a dark-color skin and...my eyes! |
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