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digi-kun March 18th, 2007 5:29 PM

As horribly stupid as it sounds, how many cards would make sense for a win condition as an equivilant to MtG's "Battle of Wits"? XD

Frostweaver March 19th, 2007 2:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 (Post 2416821)
Depends on the circumstances. I can safely say that a +2 CA on beatdown doesn't mean anything, though. But it's good to know that I didn't pick YGO as my game of choice, though, seeing all these problems arise.

Not really a "problem" but more like choices... Enemy Controller is always a -1 for CA, but it's still used a *lot* because it's a choice of versatility versus advantage. If you got CA yet they're 'dead advantages' (cards that will not help) then it's pretty pointless.

Digi, what is battle of the wits then in MTG? XD;

Scarlet Weather March 19th, 2007 2:41 PM

0_o

I'm bowled over by your intellect. XD

Anyway, just a quick card...

Computer Virus
Counter Trap
Activate this card when an opponent declares an attack with a machine-type monster. Negate the attack, then reduce the attacking monster's attack by half during your next battle phase.

Frostweaver March 19th, 2007 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art_Critic_Cubone (Post 2417789)
0_o

I'm bowled over by your intellect. XD

Anyway, just a quick card...

Computer Virus
Counter Trap
Activate this card when an opponent declares an attack with a machine-type monster. Negate the attack, then reduce the attacking monster's attack by half during your next battle phase.

Bad version of shrink? >>;
Why not just let the attack go by so the enemy suicides itself? However, it only works on machines, making it sucky compare to shrink ;_;

Kenny_C.002 March 20th, 2007 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digi-kun (Post 2417103)
As horribly stupid as it sounds, how many cards would make sense for a win condition as an equivilant to MtG's "Battle of Wits"? XD

Let's put this to the test!

Unparalleled Power
Continuous Spell
During your standby phase, if you have 200 or more cards in your deck, win the game.

Yay first turn kills. XD YGO just doesn't have the support for something like this though. There is no such thing as tutors and redundancy (relevant ones) in YGO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2417731)
Not really a "problem" but more like choices... Enemy Controller is always a -1 for CA, but it's still used a *lot* because it's a choice of versatility versus advantage. If you got CA yet they're 'dead advantages' (cards that will not help) then it's pretty pointless.

Digi, what is battle of the wits then in MTG? XD;

IIRC, controller almost always lets you stay alive for an extra turn, which seems to be good enough for use. However, being down CA does mean you have less options in total, which is a problem. Though the concept of "dead advantage" still eludes me, considering that "dead advantages" are almost always never dead, due to potential uses later on in the game, unless it's truly dead cards you're holding (i.e. monster removal vs. monster free decks.).

Frostweaver March 20th, 2007 12:50 PM

So what is "Battle of Wits" in MTG originally? ;; Maybe if someone explains how that works, I can make a more YGO-friendly version of it XD; (it seems like drawing one specific card in a whole Tower of Power type of deck?)


Enemy Controller got far more use than that

-because it's quick play, technically you can attack a monster that got higher attack power than yours. During the battle phase before damage phase, use Enemy Controller to turn the opponent's monster into defense position (and most YGO monsters got weaker defense than attack), and you'll destroy the monster. If your opponent sees this coming which isn't hard, your opponent will be forced to activate defensive traps early, and you still got the controller.

-Your opponent is using Creature Swap to trade one of your monster for one of his (usually, something pathetic, like a token in attack mode.) You can use enemy controller's 2nd option of tributing one of your monster to temporaily take control of a monster for a turn. Take control of your opponent's monster before creature swap takes place (because you're on the higher chain, thus your card's effect resolve first) to take that attack mode token, and then let creature swap take place. Now, you just toke control of your opponent's monster at the cost of the controller and your original monster, while your opponent lost a monster and creature swap. It's fair balance, but technically the cards you possess now is far better than your opponent's.

-If Zaborg the Thunder Monarch is tributed, then its effect is to destroy one monster (not optional.) It targets your monster. If that's the case, you might as well tribute your monster to take control of Zaborg. Now that Zaborg is the only monster on the field, its effect must target itself, thus destroying it. You used controller and your monster (2 cards) to get rid of a tribute monster (which also requires a tribute fodder to begin with, thus it's 2-for-2 trade again, but the monster field is empty from your opponent for your next turn.)

Very flexible card, really! Surely MtG got some equally complicated cards of CA/Flexibility trade off as well!


Dead Advantage is usually related to the monster field being empty, not necessarily because you're against a no-monster deck. If you have no monsters, then you really can't use tribute monsters from your hand hm? Although you can say that they'll be useful later, but how are you going to escape the downward spiral of getting a monster to the field without it being blown up immediately by the next turn to begin with?

But main problem with dead advantage is usually the Gadgets (similar to MTG "108" I heard, whatever that number stands for) and PACMAN. Gadgets keep getting more gadgets, yet they can only summon one at a time anyway. Their natural effects allow you to dig for a gadgets, so if you also draw more gadgets on your draw phase on top of it, the hand of gadgets is dead advantage. They're pathetic, they're weak, and they need protection, which you aren't drawing, and you can only use one of them at a time per round. If you have 3 of them already in your hand, it'll technically take 4 turns to use them all (each summon digs for more gadget, so you got another 4), which is far too slow to deal with pressing issues.

PACMAN got dead advantage in terms of getting too many monsters who can't attack, yet got awesome flip effects to destroy stuff. When there's nothing more to destroy cause PACMAN is *too* effective, those removal-based cards got nothing to do. You need damage dealers now as you already basically ran a strip search of the opponent's deck already. Those insect swarm cards, the golem sentry and the medusa worms are all totally useless now.


It's just like how MTG got "bad draws" which YGO will never understand. MTG will call Jar of Greed a joke, but YGO will never call it bad at all. It fits up one slot in the deck, and basically deck thins. MTG players will say "why not add something your deck needs? It's pointless if you can draw it now instead of using Jar of Greed to draw that same card later?" YGO got situations where the 40 card minimum is already too high, and it's not just Exodia deck either. They need deckthinning ability, and that's when Jar of Greed comes in. Also, jar of greed is good for setting, and lure out the spell destruction cards, which you'll just chain on to and draw a card. You use jar of greed so you lose 1 and gain 1, but the opponent destroys nothing so it's -1 for them (in total, jar of greed is a +1 CA then.)

Forci Stikane March 21st, 2007 4:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 (Post 2418384)
Let's put this to the test!

Unparalleled Power
Continuous Spell
During your standby phase, if you have 200 or more cards in your deck, win the game.

Yay first turn kills. XD YGO just doesn't have the support for something like this though. There is no such thing as tutors and redundancy (relevant ones) in YGO.

...More like second turn kill. You can't play a Continuous Spell from your hand during your turn until your Main Phase, which is, of course, AFTER your Standby Phase. So you'll have to wait a whole round for your opponent to 1. laugh their head off at you, and 2. destroy the spell with one of the now-rampant S/T destroyers (Twister, anyone?) to trample you almost instantly.

You also took my idea...in a way. Mine's the reverse of that:

Deck Tower Crumbling
Normal Spell
If, during your next End Phase, yoru opponent's deck has 45 or more cards in it, you win the Duel.

As for the rest of the post, Frosty's got it covered. I'll add, though, that MTG has a form of dead advantage as well (hand full of high-cost creatures/spells without enough mana to play any of them), so you should at least be vaguely familiar with the concept.

Frostweaver March 21st, 2007 8:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichapokemr (Post 2419212)
...More like second turn kill. You can't play a Continuous Spell from your hand during your turn until your Main Phase, which is, of course, AFTER your Standby Phase. So you'll have to wait a whole round for your opponent to 1. laugh their head off at you, and 2. destroy the spell with one of the now-rampant S/T destroyers (Twister, anyone?) to trample you almost instantly.

You also took my idea...in a way. Mine's the reverse of that:

Deck Tower Crumbling
Normal Spell
If, during your next End Phase, yoru opponent's deck has 45 or more cards in it, you win the Duel.

As for the rest of the post, Frosty's got it covered. I'll add, though, that MTG has a form of dead advantage as well (hand full of high-cost creatures/spells without enough mana to play any of them), so you should at least be vaguely familiar with the concept.

Deck Tower Crumbling will never work though unless you activate it on the very very very first turn of the game, provided that you opted to go first against 45 Gadget setup. No decks will have that many cards. At least for Power of Tower game, you get to control your fate.

Still, even with 3 Twister, MST and Heavy Storm, that's just 5 cards out of 40 to destroy that card on the opening turns (unless, you got Cyber Dragon/Mobius on the same hand.) Tower of Power does thin like crazy, mostly with Ground monsters. It's the only deck where Hero Kid looks insanely annoying. (Not saying that even Hero Kid can save your butt in 200+ card decks... like, dear Kuriboh, not even the fusion deck is that big.)

Kenny_C.002 March 21st, 2007 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2418446)
So what is "Battle of Wits" in MTG originally? ;; Maybe if someone explains how that works, I can make a more YGO-friendly version of it XD; (it seems like drawing one specific card in a whole Tower of Power type of deck?)

I made it already. Pretty much word for word. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2418446)
Enemy Controller got far more use than that

-because it's quick play, technically you can attack a monster that got higher attack power than yours. During the battle phase before damage phase, use Enemy Controller to turn the opponent's monster into defense position (and most YGO monsters got weaker defense than attack), and you'll destroy the monster. If your opponent sees this coming which isn't hard, your opponent will be forced to activate defensive traps early, and you still got the controller.

-Your opponent is using Creature Swap to trade one of your monster for one of his (usually, something pathetic, like a token in attack mode.) You can use enemy controller's 2nd option of tributing one of your monster to temporaily take control of a monster for a turn. Take control of your opponent's monster before creature swap takes place (because you're on the higher chain, thus your card's effect resolve first) to take that attack mode token, and then let creature swap take place. Now, you just toke control of your opponent's monster at the cost of the controller and your original monster, while your opponent lost a monster and creature swap. It's fair balance, but technically the cards you possess now is far better than your opponent's.

-If Zaborg the Thunder Monarch is tributed, then its effect is to destroy one monster (not optional.) It targets your monster. If that's the case, you might as well tribute your monster to take control of Zaborg. Now that Zaborg is the only monster on the field, its effect must target itself, thus destroying it. You used controller and your monster (2 cards) to get rid of a tribute monster (which also requires a tribute fodder to begin with, thus it's 2-for-2 trade again, but the monster field is empty from your opponent for your next turn.)

Very flexible card, really! Surely MtG got some equally complicated cards of CA/Flexibility trade off as well!

I don't actually think there are that many flexible cards in mtg in the current standard. Flexibility does have a different meaning in mtg, though. We want flexibility in the fact that the cards can deal with a large variety of situations, but generally have 1 effect. For example, a card called ancient grudge is able to handle at least 3 or 4 different decks, but has a simple destructive effect.

Strangely enough, controller's ability is designed to even up card advanatge in some way. o_O Interesting concept for the card, just that its wording was inelegant. XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2418446)
Dead Advantage is usually related to the monster field being empty, not necessarily because you're against a no-monster deck. If you have no monsters, then you really can't use tribute monsters from your hand hm? That's a dead card, not generally considered to be "dead advantage" unless you have card advantage already. Although you can say that they'll be useful later, but how are you going to escape the downward spiral of getting a monster to the field without it being blown up immediately by the next turn to begin with? This is running under the assumption that you are down on cards, not up on cards, and therefore would be already at a disadvantage, not CA.

But main problem with dead advantage is usually the Gadgets (similar to MTG "108" I heard, whatever that number stands for) and PACMAN. Gadgets keep getting more gadgets, yet they can only summon one at a time anyway. Their natural effects allow you to dig for a gadgets, so if you also draw more gadgets on your draw phase on top of it, the hand of gadgets is dead advantage. They're pathetic, they're weak, and they need protection, which you aren't drawing, and you can only use one of them at a time per round. If you have 3 of them already in your hand, it'll technically take 4 turns to use them all (each summon digs for more gadget, so you got another 4), which is far too slow to deal with pressing issues.

PACMAN got dead advantage in terms of getting too many monsters who can't attack, yet got awesome flip effects to destroy stuff. When there's nothing more to destroy cause PACMAN is *too* effective, those removal-based cards got nothing to do. You need damage dealers now as you already basically ran a strip search of the opponent's deck already. Those insect swarm cards, the golem sentry and the medusa worms are all totally useless now.

I've never had a problem with PACMAN attacking. But this was during the days when both level 4 and binds were 2-of's and MoP was used to fill the gaps. They could still attack right under them. I really don't see how PACMAN equates to dead advantage with the exception of the fact that none of the cards in hand are immediately useful. I'm unaware of 108. It's not the 108 ruling, is it? Not sure at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2418446)
It's just like how MTG got "bad draws" which YGO will never understand. MTG will call Jar of Greed a joke, but YGO will never call it bad at all. It fits up one slot in the deck, and basically deck thins. MTG players will say "why not add something your deck needs? It's pointless if you can draw it now instead of using Jar of Greed to draw that same card later?" YGO got situations where the 40 card minimum is already too high, and it's not just Exodia deck either. They need deckthinning ability, and that's when Jar of Greed comes in. Also, jar of greed is good for setting, and lure out the spell destruction cards, which you'll just chain on to and draw a card. You use jar of greed so you lose 1 and gain 1, but the opponent destroys nothing so it's -1 for them (in total, jar of greed is a +1 CA then.)

Think Twice (2 mana instant for the ability "draw a card", can do it a total of 2 times for 5 mana) has been tearing up the scenes lately in the control department. Remember the concepts of CA and what not CAME from mtg. We're much more aware of deck thinning, CA, etc. than you think. But I do have to agree that Jar of Greed, when translated to mtg, would be a complete joke, because the ability costs less than a single mana, and is useless without some other intrinsic bonus. But in a game where there is no resource problems like that, a card like jar is fair game. In mtg, a jar for that price (free) is deck staple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichapokemr (Post 2419212)
...More like second turn kill. You can't play a Continuous Spell from your hand during your turn until your Main Phase, which is, of course, AFTER your Standby Phase. So you'll have to wait a whole round for your opponent to 1. laugh their head off at you, and 2. destroy the spell with one of the now-rampant S/T destroyers (Twister, anyone?) to trample you almost instantly.

You also took my idea...in a way. Mine's the reverse of that:

Deck Tower Crumbling
Normal Spell
If, during your next End Phase, yoru opponent's deck has 45 or more cards in it, you win the Duel.

As for the rest of the post, Frosty's got it covered. I'll add, though, that MTG has a form of dead advantage as well (hand full of high-cost creatures/spells without enough mana to play any of them), so you should at least be vaguely familiar with the concept.

I translated Battle of Wits to YGO form. There really isn't any idea taking other than me taking Battle of Wits and sticking it into YGO.

My definition: "Dead advanatage" refers to being up on CA while having a number of the cards being dead cards. This means that "dead advantage" only really applies to control and combo, as intrinsically aggro doesn't care about CA as much (and they play out of mana screw like nobody's business). If you ARE playing control/combo, you generally will never have that problem of dead advantage (where you can't play expensive spells), as you WILL have a land drop every turn, and you WILL be able to play the expensive guy later when you have controlled the board position/go off. Strangely enough, I don't consider the epxensive guys to be "dead cards", even though you don't have the resources to do it yet. Because IMO it's like saying my hand is dead because I'm tapped out, which is only partially true.

Frostweaver March 21st, 2007 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002
My definition: "Dead advanatage" refers to being up on CA while having a number of the cards being dead cards. This means that "dead advantage" only really applies to control and combo, as intrinsically aggro doesn't care about CA as much (and they play out of mana screw like nobody's business). If you ARE playing control/combo, you generally will never have that problem of dead advantage (where you can't play expensive spells), as you WILL have a land drop every turn, and you WILL be able to play the expensive guy later when you have controlled the board position/go off. Strangely enough, I don't consider the epxensive guys to be "dead cards", even though you don't have the resources to do it yet. Because IMO it's like saying my hand is dead because I'm tapped out, which is only partially true

It's interesting how MTG and YGO totally do not agree with each other sometimes, although one is derived from the other XD;

"Dead cards" ARE "Dead advantage" to YGO. Fast paced nature due to no resource cost often emptys the hand quickly and immediately if neither player is playing combo/control. If you can't use it within say, 3 turns, there better be a darn good reason why it shouldn't be used yet, such as Dimension Fusion or Heavy Storm. YGO demands almost immediate solutions to present day threats. Every one turn that the Dimension Fissure sticks to the field is one turn closer to death for you with all those DD Survivor suddenly turning to God Mode.

2 defining monsters of aggro decks screw themselves over when you're doing a bit too well in CA and got multiples of them- Cyber Dragon and Hydroggedon. Cyber Dragon technically is still easy to use, but cry if you got 2 Hydroggedon in your hand. The 1st one is still useful, but the 2nd one just became a weak beatstick with 1600 (Hydroggedon special summons copies of itself from the deck when it destroys a monster.)

I'm not sure of MTG's speed and pace if it happens to be a 1vs1 game of aggro vs aggro. If that happens in YGO (say, DDT vs Cookie Cutter, you know, the one made by Jae Kim recently, that style) then the game can possibly end in 14 turns. (7 turn for each players.) With a pace that insane because the banlist went crazy-rage in destroying stall cards, a card that needs to wait for a few turns to be used are considered very, very, useless.

Eon-Rider March 22nd, 2007 2:16 AM

While on the bus home, I was thinking of a new kind of LV monsters that help deck out decks... Level Modulation would actually help for this kind of deck. XD

Winged Serenity LV4
Monster
[4/Fairy/Wind]
When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned, you're opponent draws 2 cards and discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand. During your Standby Phase, by sending this face-up card to the Graveyard, Special Summon 1 "Winged Serenity LV5" from your hand or Deck.
ATK/ 1300 DEF/ 800
Rare

Winged Serenity LV6
Monster
[6/Fairy/Wind]
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Winged Serenity LV4". Once per turn, you may send the top card of your opponent's deck to the graveyard. This monster cannot declare an attack if you used this effect this turn. When 3 or more cards have been sent to the Graveyard from this card's effect, tribute this monster to Special Summon 1 "Winged Serenity LV8" from your hand or your Deck.
ATK/2000 DEF/1500
Super Rare

Winged Serenity LV8
Monster
[8/Fairy/Wind]
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Winged Serenity LV6". Negate the effect of a Monster Card that targets this 1 card. When this card is sent to the Graveyard, your opponent draws 5 cards and discards 2 cards randomly from his/her hand.
ATK/2500 DEF/2000
Ultra Rare

Forci Stikane March 22nd, 2007 8:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2419400)
Deck Tower Crumbling will never work though unless you activate it on the very very very first turn of the game, provided that you opted to go first against 45 Gadget setup. No decks will have that many cards. At least for Power of Tower game, you get to control your fate.

It's mostly pointed at casual play, against those little kids who apparently think that 50+ card decks are good...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002
I translated Battle of Wits to YGO form. There really isn't any idea taking other than me taking Battle of Wits and sticking it into YGO.

...

It's true: implied sarcasm does not work on internet forums...

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolmaster
Winged Serenity LV4
Monster
[4/Fairy/Wind]
When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned, you're opponent draws 2 cards and discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand. During your Standby Phase, by sending this face-up card to the Graveyard, Special Summon 1 "Winged Serenity LV5 I think you mean 6" from your hand or Deck.
ATK/ 1300 DEF/ 800
Rare

Winged Serenity LV6
Monster
[6/Fairy/Wind]
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Winged Serenity LV4". Once per turn, you may send the top card of your opponent's deck to the graveyard. This monster cannot declare an attack if you used this effect this turn. When 3 or more cards have been sent to the Graveyard from this card's effect, tribute this monster to Special Summon 1 "Winged Serenity LV8" from your hand or your Deck.
ATK/2000 DEF/1500
Super Rare

Winged Serenity LV8
Monster
[8/Fairy/Wind]
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Winged Serenity LV6". Negate the effect of a Monster Card that targets this 1 card. When this card is sent to the Graveyard, your opponent draws 5 cards and discards 2 cards randomly from his/her hand.
ATK/2500 DEF/2000
Ultra Rare

Hello, Greed, and hello Appropriate + Exodia. Seriously, the stats are a bit low...

Kenny_C.002 March 22nd, 2007 9:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2419437)
I'm not sure of MTG's speed and pace if it happens to be a 1vs1 game of aggro vs aggro. If that happens in YGO (say, DDT vs Cookie Cutter, you know, the one made by Jae Kim recently, that style) then the game can possibly end in 14 turns. (7 turn for each players.) With a pace that insane because the banlist went crazy-rage in destroying stall cards, a card that needs to wait for a few turns to be used are considered very, very, useless.

Depends on the format and what not. Extended tends to have lightning speeds and can end in 5-6 turns (though there are decks going at the 7-8 turn speeds lately that's doing the winning lately). Standard tends to go slow in everything, making control generally better. Vintage ends in 4-5 turns or so, and Legacy varies somewhere in between Vintage and Extended. In aggro vs. aggro or combo vs. combo, this is generally the case, where they're just trying to outhit each other and race for damage/get the combo out faster than the other guy.

The fastest clocks I've seen so far are: turn 1 in vintage (academy, any of Long decks), turn 2 or so in legacy (some combo deck), turn 3 in extended (Gaea Zoo), and some random number of standard (this IS the place where slow cards like detrivore can actually do something with suspend X, you know, and the fastest clock is like Boros deck wins).

In all, it depends on the environment for us. In aggro, no card should be useless either (except if it's something like ancient grudge, which just waits for a target to kill off). It would definitely mean that no card in an aggro deck should ever be dead in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichapokemr (Post 2419758)
It's true: implied sarcasm does not work on internet forums...

Took you long enough to figure that out. ;)

Frostweaver March 22nd, 2007 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolmaster (Post 2419593)
While on the bus home, I was thinking of a new kind of LV monsters that help deck out decks... Level Modulation would actually help for this kind of deck. XD

Winged Serenity LV4
Monster
[4/Fairy/Wind]
When this card is Normal Summoned or Special Summoned, you're opponent draws 2 cards and discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand. During your Standby Phase, by sending this face-up card to the Graveyard, Special Summon 1 "Winged Serenity LV5" from your hand or Deck.
ATK/ 1300 DEF/ 800
Rare

Winged Serenity LV6
Monster
[6/Fairy/Wind]
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Winged Serenity LV4". Once per turn, you may send the top card of your opponent's deck to the graveyard. This monster cannot declare an attack if you used this effect this turn. When 3 or more cards have been sent to the Graveyard from this card's effect, tribute this monster to Special Summon 1 "Winged Serenity LV8" from your hand or your Deck.
ATK/2000 DEF/1500
Super Rare

Winged Serenity LV8
Monster
[8/Fairy/Wind]
This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Winged Serenity LV6". Negate the effect of a Monster Card that targets this 1 card. When this card is sent to the Graveyard, your opponent draws 5 cards and discards 2 cards randomly from his/her hand.
ATK/2500 DEF/2000
Ultra Rare

3 Cards that are incredibly hard to get out, and is geared to give advantage to the opponent...? ;_; Not even Exodia/Appropriate/Greed works with it because it gives far too much speed for the opponent =(

As mentioned, low stats suck ;; Cyber Dragon can run over Lv6 immediately, and Lv6 staying on the field for 3 turn is *impossible* sadly.


EDIT: Bump AND monsters!


Green Firearm
3*/Wind/Machine
Whenever your opponent activates a spell card, flip a coin. If heads, lower your opponent's Life Points by 700.
1000/1600

Purple Firearm
3*/Earth/Machine
Whenever your opponent activates a trap card, flip a coin. If heads, lower your opponent's Life Points by 700.
1000/1600

S-T Dual Cannon
[Green Firearm + Purple Firearm]
6*/Dark/Machine
This card cannot be special summoned. Whenever your opponent plays a spell card or trap card, flip 2 coins. For each heads, lower your opponent's Life Points by 700. If this card is sent to the graveyard as a result of a spell or trap card, you may special summon a "Green Firearm" or a "Purple Firearm" from the graveyard in face up defense position.
2500/2600

Orange Vulcan Fire
3*/Fire/Machine/Union
Once per turn, during your Main Phase, if you control this card on the field, you can equip it to your “Green Firearm", "Purple Firearm," or "S-T Dual Cannon" as an Equip Spell Card, OR unequip the Union equipment and Special Summon this card in face-up Attack Position. While equipped to a monster by this card's effect, increase the ATK/DEF of the equipped monster by 300 points and whenever your opponent summons an effect monster, flip a coin. If heads, lower your opponent's Life Points by 700. (1 monster can only be equipped with 1 Union Monster at a time. If the equipped monster is destroyed as a result of battle, destroy this card instead.)
700/700

Liquid Power Generator
3*/Water/Machine/Union
Once per turn, during your Main Phase, if you control this card on the field, you can equip it to your “Green Firearm", "Purple Firearm," or "S-T Dual Cannon" as an Equip Spell Card, OR unequip the Union equipment and Special Summon this card in face-up Attack Position. While equipped to a monster by this card's effect, whenever your opponent's Life Points decrease as a result of the effects of the equipped monster, inflict 500 damage to your opponent's life points. (1 monster can only be equipped with 1 Union Monster at a time. If the equipped monster is destroyed as a result of battle, destroy this card instead.)
700/700

White Launching Pod
3*/Light/Machine
When this card deals damage to your opponent, Special Summon 1 Level 3 Machine monster with an ATK of 1000 or less in face-up Attack Position from your Deck. Then shuffle your Deck.
1200/1800

Forci Stikane March 24th, 2007 7:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2419910)

S-T Dual Cannon
[Green Firearm + Purple Firearm]
6*/Dark/Machine
This card cannot be special summoned. Whenever your opponent plays a spell card or trap card, flip 2 coins. For each heads, lower your opponent's Life Points by 700. If this card is sent to the graveyard as a result of a spell or trap card, you may special summon a "Green Firearm" or a "Purple Firearm" from the graveyard in face up defense position.
2500/2600

So you made a monster that can't be summoned in any way. Congrats.

Frostweaver March 24th, 2007 1:07 PM

All the elemental hero fusions got the same line o_o Remember that fusion summon is not special summon. Cards like Overload Fusion still works because it got the line "this special summon is treated as fusion summon" but metamorphosis will not. So, basically, anything but metamorphosis can bring it out.

Scarlet Weather March 24th, 2007 1:47 PM

I can't remember seeing that line on E-Hero Mariner (only fusion hero I have), but hey, I'll take your word for it. Now, on to a little random E-Hero theme stealing!

But first:

The Full Moon
Continuous Spell
Remove all beast, winged beast, and beast-warrior monster monsters in your graveyard from play when your activate this card. Increase the attack of all face-up beast, winged beast, and beast warrior monsters by the number of monsters removed from play through this effect x100 points during the battle phase only. When this card is destroyed, special summon one "Dormant Werewolf from your hand or deck.

Dormant Werewolf
Monster/Beast/3*
This monster can only be special summoned through the effect of "Full Moon". When this monster is destroyed as a result of battle, you may special summon one beast, winged beast, or beast-warrior monster to the field. A monster summoned in this way cannot attack, and is destroyed during the end phase.
ATK: 1200/ Def:1200

Animal Instinct
Quickplay Spell
Select one beast, beast-warrior, or winged beast on your side of the field to activate this card. Choose one of the following effects and activate it.
1. Look at the top card of your deck. If it's a normal monster, add it to your hand. If it's anything else, discard it.
2. Pick one card randomly from your opponent's hand. If it's a monster, discard it. If it's a magic or trap card, your opponent must set it unless there are no other spell or trap card spaces available.

Silver-Pelted Mythical King
Monster/Beast/Fusion/Effect/7*
Gazelle, King of Mythical Beasts+Silver Fang
This monster can only be fusion summoned using the above fusion material monsters. When this monster is succesfully fusion summoned, add one card that targets beast, winged beast, or beast-warrior monsters from your graveyard to your hand.
ATK:2400/DEF:1500

And if that sounded like a deck beggining, wait 'til you see the other beast fusions I came up with... (Ooh, let's all be scared of ACC's rip-off strategy.)

Forci Stikane March 24th, 2007 2:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frostweaver (Post 2421815)
All the elemental hero fusions got the same line o_o Remember that fusion summon is not special summon. Cards like Overload Fusion still works because it got the line "this special summon is treated as fusion summon" but metamorphosis will not. So, basically, anything but metamorphosis can bring it out.

Wrong. First off, Fusion Summon IS Special Summoning. Second, to be precise, the E-Heroes say "This card cannot be special summoned except by fusion summon." Your card is missing that extra clause, and THAT is what makes it unusable.

Frostweaver March 24th, 2007 4:06 PM

Hm, guess it wasn't sufficient to only check the text on Overload Fusion to make sure that Overload works with it XD; *changes* What about the others then?



The Full Moon- the best part is just going to be used for RftDD swarm... because Dormant Werewolf isnt' strong enough, sadly.

Dormant Werewolf- it's dead card... it basically got a Instant Fusion effect except that it's for different monsters... and there's no good beast/winged beast/beast warrior effect monsters that do not involve attacking as well =(

Animal Instinct- effect #2 ftw. Effect #1 is the sprinkles on the chocolate.

Silver Pelted Mythical King- err... no... unless we got cooler methods to fusion summon for beasts just like Overload Fusion/Miracle Fusion is for machines/e-heroes. (what's its stats too?)

Kenny_C.002 March 24th, 2007 7:22 PM

Inferno's Path
Spell
Discard your hand. Count the number monsters in each player's control. The player with more monsters must tribute monsters until they control equal amounts of monsters the other player controls. Do the same for all cards in the spell and trap zone grouped together.

digi-kun March 24th, 2007 7:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art_Critic_Cubone (Post 2421853)
But first:

The Full Moon
Continuous Spell
Remove all beast, winged beast, and beast-warrior monster monsters in your graveyard from play when your activate this card. Increase the attack of all face-up beast, winged beast, and beast warrior monsters by the number of monsters removed from play through this effect x100 points during the battle phase only. When this card is destroyed, special summon one "Dormant Werewolf from your hand or deck.

Dormant Werewolf
Monster/Beast/3*
This monster can only be special summoned through the effect of "Full Moon". When this monster is destroyed as a result of battle after being summoned in this way [Is this really needed?], you may special summon one beast, winged beast, or beast-warrior monster that has been removed from play to the field[Is this really needed?]. A monster summoned in this way cannot attack, and is destroyed during the end phase.
ATK: 1200/ Def:1200

Animal Instinct
Quickplay Spell
Select one beast, beast-warrior, or winged beast on your side of the field to activate this card. Choose one of the following effects and activate it.
1. Look at the top card of your deck. If it's a normal monster, add it to your hand. If it's anything else, discard it.
2. Pick one card randomly from your opponent's hand. If it's a monster, discard it. If it's a magic or trap card, your opponent must set it unless there are no other spell or trap card spaces available.

Silver-Pelted Mythical King
Monster/Beast/Fusion/Effect/3*
Gazelle, King of Mythical Beasts+Silver Fang
This monster can only be fusion summoned using the above fusion material monsters. When this monster is succesfully fusion summoned, add one card that targets beast, winged beast, or beast-warrior monsters from your graveyard to your hand.

And if that sounded like a deck beggining, wait 'til you see the other beast fusions I came up with... (Ooh, let's all be scared of ACC's rip-off strategy.)

I think it would make a lot more sense if "The Full Moon" summoned "Dormant Werewolf" through activation or something rather than a "when this is destroyed" thing...makes the werewolf almost completely useless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002
Inferno's Path
Spell
Discard your hand. Count the number monsters in each player's control. The player with more monsters must tribute monsters until they control equal amounts of monsters the other player controls. Do the same for all cards in the spell and trap zone grouped together.

Balance without the hand, though it kinda makes sense why you have to discard the hand, since people could take advantage of it and clear the playing field then summon, so ya



Reset Button
Spell
Half your life points. Both players shuffle their hands, fields, and graveyards into their deck and draw 5 cards.

such an unoriginal name XD. Not sure if the life cost is too high, or if drawing that many cards a good idea so ya...

Frostweaver March 24th, 2007 7:53 PM

Infernal's Path- slightly weird wording, but otherwise a fair card that's great for casual play.

Reset Button- sorry to say Digi but broken... what if I use this to wipe off your field, then summon something darn good with my new 5 card hand? XD; Also, half of your LP is nothing if you're topdecking and got this card. Perhaps you shouldn't be permitted to normal summon or special summon during the turn you used this card.

Kenny_C.002 March 24th, 2007 7:54 PM

digi-kun, good eye on that part about balance.

And reset button definitely does need a very high cost. lol

Frostweaver March 24th, 2007 8:06 PM

Ah there are plenty of cards that get their effects off if they're destroyed by card effects, which Infernal's Path is very capable of doing.

Dark Coffin is one. Either that, or they're just immune to all spells (Horus) so Infernal's Path got some footings to play with. If your only monster is Horus, and your trap zone is just Dark Coffins, it's win-win situation (but, Dark Coffin is very useless because its effect only activates if it's destroyed.) Blast with Chain also benefits from Infernal's Path, since now you can blow up an opponent's monster as it's destroyed by a card effect.

Kenny_C.002 March 24th, 2007 8:13 PM

I was wondering about Horus. It's "immune to all spells". The case of path was hitting players. Is it immune to things that hit players as well? o_O


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