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I always thought the jury was out on this debate...
I'd like to say first off that this is a religious debate. Don't even bother bringing law into it, because the Bible also says (in Genesis) that we have control over all animals and can do with them our own will. And I dare anyone here to say that animal cruelty is acceptable and that we shouldn't have laws against it. So, the religious side of the argument flies out the window on basic reductio ad absurdum (and that's about 75% of the argument right there). What do we have left? Bearing children and having a family. Well, that's nice, but like some people have mentioned (by the way, Erik Destler, will you marry me? :P), if that's the argument, then we shouldn't allow sterile people to be married. They can't have children either. So, I believe the child bearing argument flies out the window too. Oh, and let's not forget the "family values and morals" debate. Okay, so let's have psychological tests before marriage is performed. Anyone who is sub-par can't get married, or if they show signs of serious mental illness, obviously they wouldn't be able to raise a family based on the social norm. Alright, we have next the idea that marriage is a privilege as pointed out by the OP (a religious privilege, it should be noted). Alright, I can buy that... if it didn't have so much legality in it. Marriage is not just a commitment thing, it's got a crap load of paperwork that works to help the security of the family (this is why divorce can be so difficult, or take so long, to work out). And saying that financial security is only attainable by a man and woman combo, then that's in conflict with constitutional rights right there. And if you disagree with that, then you're probably a bigot, saying some people are more deserving of something than another. :P So, that argument flies out the window. And that being said, we must also include into the debate a church-marriage and a court-marriage. Personally, I'm straight, and I'd never get married in a church. I'd probably burst into flames the moment I step foot in it, so in that sense, I personally don't see why a gay couple would want to either, especially since the church is such a discriminating organization. But a court marriage is different, and if that is illegal to a gay couple... isn't that just flat out discrimination? Again, saying some legal paperwork is more suited for A than B. That's saying A is more worthy than B. And when A and B are composed of human beings, that's just unacceptable in my eyes. Personally, and truthfully, I find no legal/political/religious debate as absurd as this one. This is a case where I can not even comprehend how someone could be against it. |
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For all any of us knows, Jesus did condemn homosexuality himself. You don't think the Bible records everything he did of said, do you? Fact is, there's no way to tell. And the Old Testament puts homosexuality on the same level as prostitution. Though, I've been rolling this over in my head. I think this topic is changing my opinion a little bit. 'O' horror of horrors! More research will be done when I have a moment. I'm curious as to the antiseptic thing. EDIT: Quote:
However, in saying that it's a religious issue I feel you're absolutely correct. |
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Basically this kind of dates back to Sodom and Gomorrah. Quote:
But why? The act of what they were doing was homosexual, yes - it was with other men. But it was not out of love, or even lust really. What the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were practicing was purely primal domination. For example, often when a new dog encounters another dog, they will . . have their way with it to show dominance. These men were showing their dominance over each other and defying God. They were living corruptly by doing so. So, in response to these men, Lot offered his two virgin daughters instead. However, it was more humiliating, at the time, if the men were 'raped' rather than women: I mean, how else do you show sheer dominance over a household than taking advantage of the head of it? Also, I have to say that that's also mistranslated. [the part about Paul] Read this. Quote:
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EDIT: And selective reading seems to be all that the religious right does. As with the passage against homosexuality being in conflict with the "God loves everyone" parts. There are so many contradictions in the Bible, it's really quite hard to show that the Bible converges to a set opinion/moral. |
And, a lot of stuff was mistranslated as well. :)
Read this for more info ^^ |
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I fact I don't even oppose same-sex marriage. I just don't think it's a civil rights issue. You could argue that more couples to adopt children serves the state's interest. |
It says in the bible that man and man or woman and woman shouldn't be in the same relationship (together), so it shouldn't be, I oppose it more than communism. It is a sin, always will be.
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(Because, like I said, this is a religious debate... since one side is totally founded on religion and the Bible, you can not debate this without bringing religion into it somehow... and that's why I doubt we will ever truly win. :P) |
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Yes sexual reproduction is impossible, but a family can be brought together through adoption. A child doesn't necessarily need parents that look like them (although it helps). I mean my friend was adopted by Lesbian couple and he is a nice well adjusted individual. I mean child rearing is really irrelevant. I mean I would rather be the child of a gay couple and have a pleasant life in a middle class or high income area than the child of a straight couple that is in the projects and abusive. |
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The funny thing about Christianity is that Christians put more faith in the 9001 most likely corrupt men that have had a role in writing, editing, and/or compiling the bible throughout the past 2000 years instead of the one man that their religion is named for. If you read just the gospels, the stories and anecdotes about Jesus' teachings and works, and then compare them to say, the entirety of the old testament, you'll be getting a lot of mixed messages. As a philosopher, Jesus preached that all you had to do on earth to gain God's grace was to love one another as He has loved us. The high priests and popes in the interim years took it upon themselves to keep adding more to the "requirements to be saved" list so that more people need their "spiritual guidance" and the result being more money and more power to the priests. The hateful attitude towards homosexuals being just one of many.
I was raised Catholic and while I'm not the most devout Catholic nowadays, I still consider the basics of the religion to be truth. Even I was able to figure out that the scare tactics used in the early days of the church were wrong and just a ploy to increase the church's power. As such, the religious element of this debate is highly irrelevant. XD ...that being said though, jury's still out on my personal stance. I have no problem with court-issued civil unions amongst same-sex couples, but I think it's best to leave the decision of religious marriages to the individual churches/synagogues/mosques/etc...as archaic as it is, a lot of religions see marriage as just a sacrament to offer the blessings of bearing children, and since same-sex couples can't produce children biologically...yeah... |
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I... I think I've reached the end of my knowledge on this subject >>; Lol |
did you post this just to get people mad? you must not have anything better to do than to start arguments.
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Not to mention donations to a sperm bank and other options... |
I am shocked and appalled by the amount of homophobic rubbish I'm seeing on this thread.
I honestly thought the world was moving on from silly prejudices. Anyway, back on the topic, if your a straight person (and I can't stress this enough) how on earth does gay marriage effect you? It just doesn't. If you don't like the idea of marrying someone of the same sex then don't marry someone of the same sex. As for those that do, just leave us alone and mind your own damn business! In other words: If you are straight this issue has no effect on your life, so you have no business talking about it. Don't poke your nose where it ain't wanted and try concentrating on your own problems instead of making life hard for everyone else with your biggotry! Quote:
If there is one thing we can be sure that God does not tolerate, it's hatred itself, which you seem to be full of. God is love. So why would God be scornful towards a loving relationship? He wouldn't. News flash: God doesn't descriminate against people for how they were born. Also I would like to say once more, the person who started this thread was clearly asking for trouble, and has posted before on threads to do with Gay issues... This person has a definite fixation with homosexuality. Why? Why the hell do you care FreakyLocz14? What is your fixation with us gays? |
Wait, let me get this right. If you get married once, have a kid, get a divorce, you can't marry again and still be in possession of that child since it's not technically "yours" because of its half-blood? Because, that's what this thread is essentially saying in a few places.
Anyway, here's my argument in bullet point format, since I've already spent too much time on writing it out in nice paragraphs for people to read:
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You claimed to be a Gay Christian in one of your earlier posts, and you plan on getting married in the church? Good luck with that. This doesn't reflect on my personal views, but I thought it might be interesting to mention. I knew a guy in high school. Quite gay and a very strong Christian. whenever a gay marriage debate popped up, he would be on side of opposition. As a gay Christian, he viewed it as a sin to go celebrating his homosexuality and all that. He even vowed that he would be a virgin for life if that's what it took to get to Heaven. Obviously, even in your particularly awkward demographic, opinions are scattered. |
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The reason I was calling out the gay-bashers was because certain posters like the one I quoted earlier were straying off the topic and simply attacking homosexuality in general. In addition I never expressed in any way whether or not I intended to marry in the future, only that it's not fair that gays shouldn't be allowed that. The Church of England doesn't condemn homosexuality. Although gay marriage isn't authorised yet as a ceremony, there is such a thing as a civil union with a blessing, which clearly shows a sound preparation for gay marriage when the time comes for reform. Clearly you just read into what I was saying what you wanted to read. Besides my belief in God is my own, I don't need to be a fundamentalist to follow the principles of Jesus and the Gospel. Nor am I prepared to condemn myself to a life of loneliness simply because I've been spoonfed religious dogma that makes little sense, like your friend decided to do. My point is this, why should the rules be different just because somebody is born different. God loves us all equally, so why should gays receive anything less than straights? Besides the main point of what I was saying is, why do straight people even care if gays want to marry or not if it has no effect on them, and you've failed to answer that question. Nobody has answered this question yet at all. P.S. quoting my reply as "Wall of text annoying spaced like such" Just shows you can't be bothered to provide valid counter arguments, and reflects the level of maturity you're bringing to the discussion. It's also rude. |
The obvious solution to this problem is for governments to stop recognizing marriages of any kind and to recognize only civil unions in their place. Anybody can get a civil union. If you also want a marriage on top of that then that's your choice and you can go to whatever religious institution will have you. Marriage is all personal anyway, right? The government can encourage reproduction (or whatever silly excuse people image it has in encouraging heterosexual unions only) with civil unions just as easily as with marriages so there's no harm to the state. Even if you think marriage is a religious thing then you shouldn't care if wider society recognizes it as sacred. Wanting people to recognize your legal rights is a completely separate thing.
Everyone gets what they want. Everyone goes home happy. |
In case nobody gets why I don't like this discussion, this page kinda says it all. I'm making one more post, and I won't be addressing everything. VMs still welcome, don't expect instant responses.
Richard Lynch: Selective reading is not required, but that's another discussion. We've all heard "Love the sinner, hate the sin", right? Cliche it may be, but it's the truth. The possessor of the sin is unholy, but not hated. "Men are superior to women, slavery, etc. etc." Another common issue I have a remedy for. Jonah's case is fun to explain. Erik Destler: Why Can't I Own a Canadian is near-irrelevant. The first paragraph says the person in question is a Jew. I understand why you brought it up, but it doesn't apply to Christianity. And neither did I forget about those lines of yours. On the note of inaccuracies the original Hebrew/Greek is the way to go. Still have some meditating to do on this one... I'm sorry I didn't answer all of everyone's objections, but what do you really expect? While I feel I've discovered many answers, I've not found every one and I don't have tons of time for this. As was previously stated, I could still stand a VM or two. Just saying the door's open. Cheers. |
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