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Timbjerr May 29th, 2010 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porygon-Z (Post 5839889)
Trust me, a flame fight is the last thing I want. What I would like is to see this thread locked and this discussion to end. But the most valid point I raised you chose to ignore. Why do straight people care about gay marriage?

...

Besides the main point of what I was saying is, why do straight people even care if gays want to marry or not if it has no effect on them, and you've failed to answer that question. Nobody has answered this question yet at all.

That's the question of the hour I guess. The best shot I can make is that fundamentalists acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin, and are attempting to bar same-sex marriage to save the souls of the gays that could be tempted by Satan into marrying an then committing sodomy. It's a weak explanation at best and highly flawed, but it's the only halfway legitimate argument that side of the debate can offer.

Sorry if I came off as overly irritable in my last post. I do that sometimes. =/

FreakyLocz14 May 29th, 2010 8:22 PM

In my state, Califonia, same-sex couples already have all of the legal rights of marriage under California Family Code section 297.

So obviously they want something more than just legal rights. They want to force acceptance of their lifestyle on the general public.

Silver May 29th, 2010 8:33 PM

The way I see it is, this should be a purely legal issue void of all religious arguments. That being what is the difference between a man/man or women/women couple getting married versus a man/women couple getting married?

And if you were to bring religion in to this discussion. So what if homosexuality is a 'sin'? Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins. God is loving and accepting, he's not going to damn someone to hell for committing a 'sin'.

Also I suggest you read this thread explaining why homosexuality is not a sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbjerr (Post 5839790)
You claimed to be a Gay Christian in one of your earlier posts, and you plan on getting married in the church? Good luck with that.

Also just going to point out that this isn't as hard as it used to be. I know personally that my pastor embraces gay couples that wish to get married in our church.

Akio123 May 29th, 2010 9:19 PM

I mean, how can being gay be a sin? I mean consider the following:

Sexuality is a combination of genetics and environment: Mostly the former. I mean if you are born a certain way then how can it be consider evil? Your God, made the person the way they were so does that mean that God intentionally made some people by default sinners for just being?

If it is a sin that makes it a choice so does that mean up til puberty all humans were bisexual and chose to be gay or straight?
: Okay as a Bisexual, I have to say that I was born this way, but I don't think the whole world was and then chose. Sexuality would literally be moot if that was the case.

For Christians, are we really allowed to pass judgment on one another because of a 2000 year old book?
: Okay, I'm a athiest, but I went to Catholic school after Lutheran school, so I'm pretty well versed on Christianity. Remember the following quote by Christ himself "Yee who is without sin cast the first stone." I mean let's bite for a moment and humor those who consider being gay a sin (Remember I can't by default consider it a sin XD). Who among us hasn't done something offensive? I mean we can't persecute people for their "faults."

We are not letting people get married and have a nice life because of a book:
Yes, I understand it is the backbone and substance of the Christianity? But you know what really is the thriving force? The people! People, gay, straight, bisexual who just believe in a higher being. I mean I believe if you just believe in God you deserve to get married. If you are a tax paying, law abiding, (and I suppose) God fearing being, why can't you get married? The reason, because of a book that is grossly been misinterpreted and translated so many times that it could have been completely different meanings 2000 years ago. (Never mind that not everything in the bible is suppose to be taken literally).

Sex couples and Different sex couples in Raising children: I made a point earlier that honestly, its not the sexuality that matters but the quality of parenting. I mean a key in this argument is that people who are gay can't properly raise children because of their sexuality. I mean what does sexuality, other than possibly modeling, really do in parenting?


Alright, I've said my piece. I don't mean to incite any flame wars or offend anyone just wanted to get some points out there.

Timbjerr May 29th, 2010 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akio123 (Post 5840432)
I mean, how can being gay be a sin? I mean consider the following:

Sexuality is a combination of genetics and environment: Mostly the former. I mean if you are born a certain way then how can it be consider evil? Your God, made the person the way they were so does that mean that God intentionally made some people by default sinners for just being?

According to the book of Leviticus (where the fundamentalists pull the justification for their prejudice from), being gay isn't a sin. Engaging in deviant sexual activity is a sin. I just feel the need to clarify that every time I see someone make that misconception.

The irony comes from the fact that devoted homosexual couples will engage in such activities regardless of whether or not they're allowed to get married, at which point, the only people that suffer are the chaste homosexual couples that are a-okay by the Bible. XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akio123 (Post 5840432)
For Christians, are we really allowed to pass judgment on one another because of a 2000 year old book? : Okay, I'm a athiest, but I went to Catholic school after Lutheran school, so I'm pretty well versed on Christianity. Remember the following quote by Christ himself "Yee who is without sin cast the first stone." I mean let's bite for a moment and humor those who consider being gay a sin (Remember I can't by default consider it a sin XD). Who among us hasn't done something offensive? I mean we can't persecute people for their "faults."

Like I said earlier in the thread. Fundamentalist Christians are particularly humorous because they put more faith in a book that's been edited 9001 time throughout human history by men that care less about philosophy than maintaining their hold on power than they do in the words of their messiah whom the religion is named after. XD

twocows May 29th, 2010 9:58 PM

I don't even understand why people are against same-sex marriage. It doesn't really hurt anyone, and it's not like someone's forcing something on you, they're just opening up the option for others who may want to do that. I understand that some people may feel that it's morally wrong, but doesn't that just mean those people shouldn't do it? That seems sufficient to me.

Akio123 May 29th, 2010 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbjerr (Post 5840449)
According to the book of Leviticus (where the fundamentalists pull the justification for their prejudice from), being gay isn't a sin. Engaging in deviant sexual activity is a sin. I just feel the need to clarify that every time I see someone make that misconception.

The irony comes from the fact that devoted homosexual couples will engage in such activities regardless of whether or not they're allowed to get married, at which point, the only people that suffer are the chaste homosexual couples that are a-okay by the Bible. XD



Like I said earlier in the thread. Fundamentalist Christians are particularly humorous because they put more faith in a book that's been edited 9001 time throughout human history by men that care less about philosophy than maintaining their hold on power than they do in the words of their messiah whom the religion is named after. XD

I meant being as an in engaging, I should have been more clear. Also it's just fundamentalists I mean a lot of Christians who don't sure the puritanical beliefs as Fundamentalists believe the same thing. Only it's just not wanting gay marriage instead of outright HATING gays.


Also I mean it's not that ironic, I mean we have those basic human needs. Gay, bi, straight, you need to fulfill those needs. I mean yeah I get what you are saying, Many Christians deem it deviant behavior, but I mean it's the same Christians who go around having pre marital sex and engaging in other things "God" would deem unsavory to say the least. XD

FreakyLocz14 May 29th, 2010 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver (Post 5840371)
The way I see it is, this should be a purely legal issue void of all religious arguments. That being what is the difference between a man/man or women/women couple getting married versus a man/women couple getting married?

And if you were to bring religion in to this discussion. So what if homosexuality is a 'sin'? Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins. God is loving and accepting, he's not going to damn someone to hell for committing a 'sin'.

Also I suggest you read this thread explaining why homosexuality is not a sin.


Also just going to point out that this isn't as hard as it used to be. I know personally that my pastor embraces gay couples that wish to get married in our church.

You cannot discuss marriage without discussing religion. The institution of marriage is deeply rooted in religion (like I've been saying the whole time). We can discuss the legal rights associated with marriage without discussing marriage itself to avoid religion; however, that would mean thAT civil unions or domestic partnerships would suffice in achieving the "equality" goal if it's really all about rights and benefits.

lx_theo May 29th, 2010 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5840504)
You cannot discuss marriage without discussing religion. The institution of marriage is deeply rooted in religion (like I've been saying the whole time). We can discuss the legal rights associated with marriage without discussing marriage itself to avoid religion; however, that would mean thAT civil unions or domestic partnerships would suffice in achieving the "equality" goal if it's really all about rights and benefits.

It wouldn't though, because refusing marriage (a legal process, like I've said) based on religious reasons is constitutional. Civil Unions and Domestic Partnerships have two problems, they are seen as a different thing than marriage and they don't have the societal prowess marriage does. Benefits aren't the only thing that make marriage what it is. Religion is deeply rooted into it in context of history and tradition, but legally it can't be.

Akio123 May 29th, 2010 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5840504)
You cannot discuss marriage without discussing religion. The institution of marriage is deeply rooted in religion (like I've been saying the whole time). We can discuss the legal rights associated with marriage without discussing marriage itself to avoid religion; however, that would mean thAT civil unions or domestic partnerships would suffice in achieving the "equality" goal if it's really all about rights and benefits.

Nobody is denying the fact that marriage is rooted in religion, but refer to my earlier post. I mean like its rooted in religion from old precedents in a really old book that was (mis)translated over 9000 times.

FreakyLocz14 May 29th, 2010 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lx_theo (Post 5840513)
It wouldn't though, because refusing marriage (a legal process, like I've said) based on religious reasons is constitutional. Civil Unions and Domestic Partnerships have two problems, they are seen as a different thing than marriage and they don't have the societal prowess marriage does. Benefits aren't the only thing that make marriage what it is. Religion is deeply rooted into it in context of history and tradition, but legally it can't be.

What I said before, you're kind of proving here.
Homosexuals have hidden motives behind wanting same-sex marriage legalized besides legal "equality".
They want to use the institution of marriage instead of being glad they get the same rights under civil unions/domestic partnerships not because they want the rights, but because they want to force acceptance of their lifestyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akio123 (Post 5840518)
Nobody is denying the fact that marriage is rooted in religion, but refer to my earlier post. I mean like its rooted in religion from old precedents in a really old book that was (mis)translated over 9000 times.

If the book you're talking about is the Christian Bible, you're missing the point. I said marriage is deeply rooted in religion, I never said specifically Christian religion. Believe it or not, other religions have history and traditions on the institution of marriage; not just Christianity. Marriage is rooted in religion itself, not just Christianity. Therefore, your views on Christianity are irrelevant to this discussion.

I find it funny that the pro-gay marriage crowd are the first to say Christianity shouldn't be brough up in this debate yet they are first ones to bring it up.

professor plum May 29th, 2010 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbjerr (Post 5840449)
According to the book of Leviticus (where the fundamentalists pull the justification for their prejudice from), being gay isn't a sin. Engaging in deviant sexual activity is a sin. I just feel the need to clarify that every time I see someone make that misconception.

The irony comes from the fact that devoted homosexual couples will engage in such activities regardless of whether or not they're allowed to get married, at which point, the only people that suffer are the chaste homosexual couples that are a-okay by the Bible. XD

Lalalala

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aforementioned Website about Mistranslations
Similarly, for Leviticus 18:22, the wording of the original Hebrew is very different from the KJV form:

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind:
it is abomination." [Leviticus 18:22, King James Version]
However, the original Hebrew for Leviticus 18:22 reveals a different 3rd meaning:

"We-et-zakar lo' tishkav mishkevey 'ishshah" [Lev 18:22 Hebrew, Latinized]
("And-with a-male NOT lie-down in beds-of a-woman") [Lev 18:22 literal translation]

So, the Hebrew Leviticus 18:22 mentions: someone + a male + a woman; hence, a forbidden 3-way.

Those 2 infamous Leviticus verses actually mention other women or wives, rather than male-male relationships, as is often the misinterpretation & mistranslation.

Leviticus, as mentioned, was mistranslated ):

Personally, I think a lot of this lies within the oblivious state-of-mind people in general maintain in regard to mistranslations of the Bible. :C

Bluerang1 May 30th, 2010 12:04 AM

So some people want Marriages to be scrap just because homosexuals can't get married. Hypocritical much?

Ho-Oh May 30th, 2010 3:16 AM

I think everyone should be able to get married, tbh. And yeah, my thread on marriage was pretty much... more trolling-ish opinions, but really, as long as the two people are over 18, they should do whatever they want to. Cause if you love someone you should be able to marry them. Who cares about all the technicalities of religion, etc, -insert everything else this thread mentions-, love shouldn't be like that. :(

But yeah, homosexuals should be able to get married~
...just as long as they're not related already. D:
(I mean same applies to hetro's, but yeah.)

Porygon-Z May 30th, 2010 3:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5840652)
but because they want to force acceptance of their lifestyle.

Please clarify what you mean by "lifestyle".

You are implying that homosexuality is a choice. That's like calling being black or asian a "lifestyle".

As I can tell you I did not choose to be gay, In fact I spent most of my teenagers years trying to be straight. Needless to say it didn't work because I was simply born this way.

Nobody choses their sexualtiy. To claim that they do is just ignorance. In fact we've already seen evidence demonstrating that it's not a "lifestyle" choice, presented by Timbjerr:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbjerr (Post 5839790)
I knew a guy in high school. Quite gay and a very strong Christian. whenever a gay marriage debate popped up, he would be on side of opposition. As a gay Christian, he viewed it as a sin to go celebrating his homosexuality and all that. He even vowed that he would be a virgin for life if that's what it took to get to Heaven.

Are you telling the guy in this story chose to be gay just so he could punish himself? I think not.

So please clarify what you mean by "lifestyle".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbjerr (Post 5840344)
Sorry if I came off as overly irritable in my last post. I do that sometimes. =/

It's a heated debate so, no hard feelings. :p

Rich Boy Rob May 30th, 2010 4:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever (Post 5840956)
I think everyone should be able to get married, tbh. And yeah, my thread on marriage was pretty much... more trolling-ish opinions, but really, as long as the two people are over 18, they should do whatever they want to. Cause if you love someone you should be able to marry them. Who cares about all the technicalities of religion, etc, -insert everything else this thread mentions-, love shouldn't be like that. :(

But yeah, homosexuals should be able to get married~
...just as long as they're not related already. D:
(I mean same applies to hetro's, but yeah.)

This is pretty much my view on the subject. Love should be the only factor in marriage, not sexuality or religion.

FreakyLocz14 May 30th, 2010 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porygon-Z (Post 5841007)
Please clarify what you mean by "lifestyle".

You are implying that homosexuality is a choice. That's like calling being black or asian a "lifestyle".

As I can tell you I did not choose to be gay, In fact I spent most of my teenagers years trying to be straight. Needless to say it didn't work because I was simply born this way.

Nobody choses their sexualtiy. To claim that they do is just ignorance. In fact we've already seen evidence demonstrating that it's not a "lifestyle" choice, presented by Timbjerr:



Are you telling the guy in this story chose to be gay just so he could punish himself? I think not.

So please clarify what you mean by "lifestyle".



It's a heated debate so, no hard feelings. :p

I said "lifestyle" not "lifestyle choice". Please read more carefully.

And I'm sorry but marriage =/= love. Marrying for love is such a new concept. Marriage is really for financial security, inheritance, child bearing, etc. And in the case of royalty, to make sure the crown stays in the family.

KejiBebi May 30th, 2010 11:23 AM

I see or have no problems with same sex marriage.
Atheists get married, people who can't have children get married, and so does any one else who wants to be united with the person that they love. It doesn't always have to be about religion, and there are more documents then the Constitution, thats not the only important one.

I think that any one who wants to get married should be able to get married. Not for the fact that they want to have children or be united under god, but for the simple fact that they love their significant other and want to be a part of that persons family for the rest of their lives.

And even if marrying for love hasn't always been the case, people have been thinking that way for a long time and its time to get used to it.

That sure is better then getting married to someone who you can't stand just to obtain financial securities. Thats definitely not good for any child, to see their parents fighting or not getting along or loving each other.

Dawg 2005 May 30th, 2010 11:33 AM

I'm not even going to read anyone's post here. Here's my stand point:

Gay marriage doesn't hurt anyone. Anyone who has a problem with it is just looking to stir up trouble. Think if it was allowed; how would everything be different other than the fact that gays would be allowed to wed. Love is love. There's nothing anyone can do to stop it. The world is fulllllll of hypocrisy, and whenever people fight against gay marriage, it's prominent.

Give me ONE legitimate reason why it's "wrong."

kthx

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14
And I'm sorry but marriage =/= love. Marrying for love is such a new concept. Marriage is really for financial security, inheritance, child bearing, etc. And in the case of royalty, to make sure the crown stays in the family.

Speak for yourself.

Timbjerr May 30th, 2010 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Destler (Post 5840661)
Lalalala

Leviticus, as mentioned, was mistranslated ):

Personally, I think a lot of this lies within the oblivious state-of-mind people in general maintain in regard to mistranslations of the Bible. :C

I didn't say that Leviticus hasn't been mistranslated. In fact, between this thread and its twin religion thread, I try to come off as very cynical about the Bible in general. :P

I was stating the frame of mind of the fundamentalists who do take everything in the Bible at face value, not reflecting my personal views. XD

Also, three-way = sodomy, which is often erroneously associated with homosexuality, so I can see how circular logic works either way. =/

FreakyLocz14 May 30th, 2010 1:07 PM

Sodomy is actually any sex other than heterosexual intercourse that would result in reproduction. Homosexuals and heterosexuals can both engage in sodomy but homosexuals can only engage in sodomy.

Sneeze May 30th, 2010 1:56 PM

Need I even post here, it should be pretty obvious what my views are. Any couple should be able to get married if they want to, regardless of gender. If Brittany can marry someone and divorce them mere hours later why can't two people of the same sex who genuinely love each other marry?

Porygon-Z May 30th, 2010 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5841658)
I said "lifestyle" not "lifestyle choice". Please read more carefully.

And I'm sorry but marriage =/= love. Marrying for love is such a new concept. Marriage is really for financial security, inheritance, child bearing, etc. And in the case of royalty, to make sure the crown stays in the family.


You're back peddling. A lifestyle by definition is a choice you make on how to live your life.

So please, I'll ask you more specifically. What do you mean by "force acceptance of their lifestyle"?

How can one force acceptance. I can't control your thoughts, so I can't make you accept anything. It's impossible.

a suggestion, if I may: If you don't like a gay "lifestyle", then perhaps you should stick to being straight. What other people do with their lives is none of your business.

Secondly, if you're going to argue that marriage is all about legal issues, then you must relinquish your claim that this is solely a religious debate. You can't have it both ways.

Benjamin510 May 30th, 2010 3:17 PM

God. Just. Allow. Gay. MARRIAGE! Just do it. In my twelve years. I have seen... about... 200 couples that are Gay or lesbian, KISSING. Not other stuff. I might of seen like 50000000 OF any gay Signs.

Akio123 May 30th, 2010 4:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 (Post 5840652)

If the book you're talking about is the Christian Bible, you're missing the point. I said marriage is deeply rooted in religion, I never said specifically Christian religion. Believe it or not, other religions have history and traditions on the institution of marriage; not just Christianity. Marriage is rooted in religion itself, not just Christianity. Therefore, your views on Christianity are irrelevant to this discussion.

I find it funny that the pro-gay marriage crowd are the first to say Christianity shouldn't be brough up in this debate yet they are first ones to bring it up.

Alright, then let's look at Paganism, Old Mayan religion, and other religions in which men would engage in intercourse with young servant boys till they were married or chose to be with said servant boys. In which older cultures and religions would allow it.

ALSO, I brought up Christianity for those who use the Christian faith as their argument. Not just for you.


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