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-   -   5th Gen TMs & HMs Discussion (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=228545)

rocky505 August 9th, 2010 12:40 PM

TMs no longer disappear means no more AR codes for infinite TMs.

Gymnotide August 9th, 2010 1:22 PM

I've already mentioned this idea in a post before, but here it goes again.

Keep HMs in the game, but also make other moves function as HMs out of battle. This means that you would still need the proper badge to use the move outside of battle, just like HMs. Different attacks have different "Overworld Effects," that I like to call "Skills." Say if you had the attack Slash. It would grant you the Skill to "remove shrubbery" on the overworld. The same would be true for Cut, obviously. HMs are merely there so that you can always have an HM to teach to a Pokemon in case you need it, since not all teams might have the right combination of attacks to navigate the world. Pokemon Abilities should also grant Skills, if appropriate.

Different moves grant different Skills, as listed below.

Remove shrubbery: Cut, Slash, Scratch, Psycho Cut, Night Slash, Air Cutter, Air Slash, X-Scissor, Razor Wind, Magical Leaf and any other move involving cutting or slashing. This will remove the need to use the Cut HM since there are so many cutting moves, but the HM will still be in-game in case you don't have any of those moves on your Pokemon.

Move on water: Surf, Muddy Water, Water Sport, etc. There aren't many moves that fit the right description, but Surf is already such a good attack that it's very much preferred. In addition, Pokemon with the Swift Swim ability should be able to bypass requiring a move.

Scale waterfalls: Waterfall, Aqua Jet, etc.

Move boulders: Strength, Superpower, Bulk Up, Psychic, Confusion, Power Whip, etc. With the addition of Psychic-type moves as well as just pure strength moves, Strength is a lot easier to use on the overworld. In addition, Pokemon with Huge Power or Pure Power, etc. have the ability to do this innately.

Dispel darkness: Flash, Flash Cannon, Doom Desire, Signal Beam, Flamethrower, Tail Glow, and any other attack that involves or uses light, barring most electrical attacks. In addition, any Pokemon with Illuminate or Flash Fire has this ability already.

Travel to another town: Fly, Teleport, Dig, Sky Attack, Tailwind, etc.

Smash boulders: Rock Smash, Cross Chop, Karate Chop, Force Palm (most Fighting-type moves, actually), Crush Grip, Crush Claw, Mega Punch (most punching moves), Head Smash, Rock Wrecker, Rock Blast, etc. Since Rock Smash is greatly useless, it is good to have a lot of bash type moves to compensate for it.

Ram a tree: Headbutt, Zen Headbutt, Tackle, Volt Tackle, etc.

PoketalkCreator August 9th, 2010 1:43 PM

For me, I like it a little bit. I know it makes the games easier, which I kinda like. And also, how can we be absolutely sure that they will last FOREVER like the HMs? Maybe they expire at a certain point.

lucaspontes_7 August 9th, 2010 4:32 PM

Like some people said, it would be too easy if you could use a TM forever. They could make something like, if you use a TM before beating the main storyline, it won't disappear but you won't be able to use it again. After you beat the main storyline, you could "recycle" the TM. Also, limiting the number of times, like 2 "recycles" for every TM would be good.

Planetes. August 9th, 2010 5:59 PM

The TMs will probably be harder to obtain, now that they are infinite use, I think

Karel_Kazuki August 9th, 2010 6:04 PM

GUys,No matter how"Obvious" your"Logic " or "Ideas" are, it wont happen.

There are somethings that Game Freak has stuck by over the Years,Gyms,TMs,HMs, and an evil team to name a few.

We all EXPECT those things because every Generation has had them.Its no turning back on the roots for which the basis was brought upon.

Now Get this Logic. THe Point of Having HMs is not for the moveset, but because it KEEPS you from advancing to the parts of the story you arent supposed to.Thats why you can obtain Cut but cant chop a tree yet but use it in battle.Remember in GSC how you could get Whirlpool but couldnt use it because you didnt have Jasmine's badge ?Or yo u obtained Surf from the Kimono girls but didnt have Morty's Badge?IT is for those reasons that you couldnt reach those areas.

Now lets think of it on a designers side.You Dont wanna spoil the story, but you somehow test to see what would happen if you gave a person the HM early, or as you would say,Let a Pokemon already know the "skill",It already allows you to access the towns , basically ruining the story line.Game Designing only goes so far and Game Freak uses just about the same scripts every game,just adds a little extra in each Generation.Maybe they havent gotten the technology where they can give that to the pokemon without ruining the story, and to me, it sounds impossible.I Know, its my majoring subject right now.So stop trying to say how supposedly pointless the HMS have been because its suupposed to be SPECULATION in this thread.ITs already been announced that there are TMs and HMS, so please stop.

On a new note,I was hoping that the moves with special abilities(I.E.Teleport, Dig,Sweet Scent(from 3rd Gen) would take the place of Hms like Whirlpool because I haven't seen a Sea Route yet.Its could be possible they cut it out.I mean look at the Isshu map...Its basically all land except the islands south of the Starter's town,which only looks accessable by boat.

Zelda August 9th, 2010 6:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoketalkCreator (Post 6054096)
For me, I like it a little bit. I know it makes the games easier, which I kinda like. And also, how can we be absolutely sure that they will last FOREVER like the HMs? Maybe they expire at a certain point.

I don't see a need for TM's to expire. :x Sure, since they'll be an infinite use it won't give us a challenge to go trade for them but, it helps others who don't have good things to trade in return.
If TM's last forever like HM's, I don't see that being a problem..o o It actually will be a relief for many since the only thing we can do is trade for them or obtain them by spending hours playing Game Corner games or battling the Battle Frontier for points to get them.

If they weren't going to last forever I'd be use to it since that's happened all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceDragonite (Post 6054773)
The TMs will probably be harder to obtain, now that they are infinite use, I think

This will make more of a challenge for those who want more challenge, but on the other hand there is a lot of TM's to be obtained so I'm not totally sure either. xD;

Zeturic August 9th, 2010 6:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karel_Kazuki (Post 6054793)
GUys,No matter how"Obvious" your"Logic " or "Ideas" are, it wont happen.

There are somethings that Game Freak has stuck by over the Years,Gyms,TMs,HMs, and an evil team to name a few.

We all EXPECT those things because every Generation has had them.Its no turning back on the roots for which the basis was brought upon.

Now Get this Logic. THe Point of Having HMs is not for the moveset, but because it KEEPS you from advancing to the parts of the story you arent supposed to.Thats why you can obtain Cut but cant chop a tree yet but use it in battle.Remember in GSC how you could get Whirlpool but couldnt use it because you didnt have Jasmine's badge ?Or yo u obtained Surf from the Kimono girls but didnt have Morty's Badge?IT is for those reasons that you couldnt reach those areas.

Now lets think of it on a designers side.You Dont wanna spoil the story, but you somehow test to see what would happen if you gave a person the HM early, or as you would say,Let a Pokemon already know the "skill",It already allows you to access the towns , basically ruining the story line.Game Designing only goes so far and Game Freak uses just about the same scripts every game,just adds a little extra in each Generation.Maybe they havent gotten the technology where they can give that to the pokemon without ruining the story, and to me, it sounds impossible.I Know, its my majoring subject right now.So stop trying to say how supposedly pointless the HMS have been because its suupposed to be SPECULATION in this thread.ITs already been announced that there are TMs and HMS, so please stop.

On a new note,I was hoping that the moves with special abilities(I.E.Teleport, Dig,Sweet Scent(from 3rd Gen) would take the place of Hms like Whirlpool because I haven't seen a Sea Route yet.Its could be possible they cut it out.I mean look at the Isshu map...Its basically all land except the islands south of the Starter's town,which only looks accessable by boat.

Pay attention. There. Did you see it? After a punctuation mark, you put a space before continuing typing.

Other than that, nothing you said made any sense. The people were saying that the better TMs (Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, etc.) will be harder to obtain because they are multi-use.

Yes, HMs were used for exploration. So? Also, you're forgetting something - you need badges to use HMs. Which, is really irrelevant to the rarity of TMs.

Karel_Kazuki August 9th, 2010 6:36 PM

If you would look at some of the posts on the last page or even Gymnotide's post,You'd see what I'm talking about.This doesn't refer to whoever is speaking about TMs.and BTW it says TMs/ HMs so they can be discussed too.

Charizard★ August 9th, 2010 6:51 PM

Wow. Finally. I love TM reusable idea XD

austy14 August 9th, 2010 10:53 PM

I think it would also be cool if they kept the HM system for out of battle purposes, but they should also let you use any move out of battle. These moves might not do anything but maybe a special little graphics show... like, your pokemon uses fire balst and a blast of fire appears in front of you. Now bullet seed would have a purpose, cus you could spit seeds at people (even if it just looks like it though nothing happens) you could also do this to affect the way buildings/trees look while you're there, like burnt trees and puddles! They would disappear when you change route/tpwn though.

WarpstarX August 9th, 2010 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever (Post 6052984)


Also. I actually hope they decrease the amount of TMs, low level ones as mentioned in MRAS' post (bullet seed) are... sort of not necessary.

Since Tm's are "movable" items they kinda have to keep every single TM we've had before so there WILL be 90+ TM's. Every non key item from the 3rd & 4th gen onwards has to be in forth generation (even the useless ones).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karel_Kazuki (Post 6054793)
GUys,No matter how"Obvious" your"Logic " or "Ideas" are, it wont happen.

There are somethings that Game Freak has stuck by over the Years,Gyms,TMs,HMs, and an evil team to name a few.

We all EXPECT those things because every Generation has had them.Its no turning back on the roots for which the basis was brought upon.

Now Get this Logic. THe Point of Having HMs is not for the moveset, but because it KEEPS you from advancing to the parts of the story you arent supposed to.

That makes sense but then they could use the whole "broken bridge"/"fallen tree"/ or you can not advance because a minor inconvenience crap.

Ninja Caterpie August 10th, 2010 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarpstarX (Post 6055529)
That makes sense but then they could use the whole "broken bridge"/"fallen tree"/ or you can not advance because a minor inconvenience crap.

That's sooo LegendOfZelda/MarioRPG/FinalFantasy/EveryOtherRPG.

I also don't understand this bull about killing competitive battling. Are you saying trading to get more of a TM kills it? o_o obviously, whoever reckons multiple of the one move on a team overpowers it has never played real competitive battling. 'specially with SR, because nobody in their right mind wastes slots on SR.

And I dislike the idea of a complete TM overhaul. It's also not possible, because it's been confirmed (has it?) that we can transfer Pokemon from DPPt/HGSS to this. Thus, we must keep the TMs, or we'd get a billion illegal move combos, like Breloom with Thunderpunch + Poison Heal from DPPt era.

Volroc August 10th, 2010 12:27 AM

Personally i think only these should be TMs/HMs:

Attack Moves [37]:
Spoiler:

Flamethrower
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Energy Ball
Dragon Pulse
Dark Pulse
Psychic
Dragon Claw
Sludge Bomb
Flash Cannon
Iron Head
Earthquake
Earth Power
Thief (just cuz i like to steal items :P)
Aerial Ace
Air Slash
False Swipe
Brick Break
Aura sphere
Shadow Claw
Shadow Ball
Signal Beam
X-Scissor
Psycho Cut
Seed Bomb
Thunder Punch
Fire Punch
Ice Punch
Tri Attack
Strength
Facade
Surf
Waterfall
Fly
Cut
Rock Climb
Dive
(Hidden Power should come from a Move tutor,who tells you the pokemons HP& its strength after you teach it to it)


Status Moves [23]:
Spoiler:

Substitute
Calm Mind
Bulk Up
Toxic
Nasty Plot
Swords Dance
Recover
Roost
Synthesis
Trick Room
Dragon Dance
Hail
Sunny Day
Rain Dance
Sandstorm
Taunt
Baton Pass
Wish
Recycle [and a whole increase on pokemon who can use it,theres not that many]
Gravity
Flash
Double Team
Foresight



Basically at least 1physical&special move for each type, a few strategic attack moves.
then the most commonly used Status moves, a few nice In-game Status moves, and 7 HMs being turned into TMs: Surf,Waterfall,Strength,Cut,Flash (already done in gen4),Rock Climb,& Dive.

feel free to quote& edit to your preferences ^_^
but i did this in a, non-competitive way/ competitive way
kept the status moves, but got rid of the over used attacks, & attacks with no effect, no use, or just with bad accuracy.

Haza August 10th, 2010 12:31 AM

There should also be some weaker TMs for the basic staged Pokemon during the early gameplay. Anyway, I really like the fact that you dont have to find more after you use it once, or hack to get 995 of every TM.

Ninja Caterpie August 10th, 2010 12:34 AM

Also, those who say Bullet Seed sucks...well, consider the place that you get it in-game. In RSE, it was really well placed. The only grass move you have at that point is Absorb, which generally sucks more than Bullet Seed. :| In DPPt, it sucked because the grass-types you can find have better moves, but in RSE...it was good.

*Minun* August 10th, 2010 1:18 AM

Haha... I find it funny how Japan is pretty much the most technically advanced place in the world and then when gamefreak sets the game in New York TMs are improved amazingly.

Also, this will probably take the number of TMs up to 100 or more. That would be cool.

And even if they made TMs harder to get or more expensive it would be pointless in the end because you could just make your Gen 4 pokemon hold all the hard to get TMs and send them over after the main storyline. Unless they didn't allow that.

King Gumball August 10th, 2010 2:25 AM

With tMs not running out training pokemon how I want them to be will be much easier. Much, much better addition to this new gen. I love it!

Ho-Oh August 10th, 2010 2:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarpstarX (Post 6055529)
Since Tm's are "movable" items they kinda have to keep every single TM we've had before so there WILL be 90+ TM's. Every non key item from the 3rd & 4th gen onwards has to be in forth generation (even the useless ones).

Yeaaah but I'm thinking that maybe some TMs could just become moves, it... would make it easier to remember the amount of TMs tbh. :( Either way just wishful thinking probably.

Sammuthegreat August 10th, 2010 3:22 AM

Ok... I'm gonna go ahead and quote bits of what you said, and then quote the bits of my previous post that you clearly did not read.

From you:

Quote:

GUys,No matter how"Obvious" your"Logic " or "Ideas" are, it wont happen.

There are somethings that Game Freak has stuck by over the Years,Gyms,TMs,HMs, and an evil team to name a few.

We all EXPECT those things because every Generation has had them.Its no turning back on the roots for which the basis was brought upon.
From me:

Quote:

In no way am I expecting that this will be implemented in Black and White
From you:

Quote:

Now Get this Logic. THe Point of Having HMs is not for the moveset, but because it KEEPS you from advancing to the parts of the story you arent supposed to.Thats why you can obtain Cut but cant chop a tree yet but use it in battle.Remember in GSC how you could get Whirlpool but couldnt use it because you didnt have Jasmine's badge ?Or yo u obtained Surf from the Kimono girls but didnt have Morty's Badge?IT is for those reasons that you couldnt reach those areas.
From me:

Quote:

And to stay in line with the current system whereby you can't use HMs outside of battle until you earn the relevant badge, the following could be implemented:

You can't perform Cut outside battle until you earn a licence showing that you are competent enough to perform the dangerous operation of cutting down trees - this licence is achieved by earning the first badge.

You can't perform Surf outside battle until you earn a licence showing that you are competent enough to perform the dangerous operation of traversing long stretches of water unaccompanied - this licence is achieved by earning a later badge, etc. etc.
So in fact, I had thought of everything you claimed that I had not. Maybe read through my obvious ideas and logic before putting them in quotation marks and ridiculing them.

Weavile05 August 10th, 2010 5:25 AM

I would atleast like forgettable HMs, so that if you went into some deep forest, got to the exit, needed cut to get through, and the only pokemon in your party that could use it was your best pokemon (you know, something you don't want to teach cut to) and you don't have to waste your time going to a move deleter and you can just replace it with either a TM or the next move your pokemon learns. Either that or a move deleter item.

Itstoppedatumbreon August 10th, 2010 5:33 AM

wats the point in HMs then if threy do the same as a TM?

Dominus Temporis August 10th, 2010 5:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itstoppedatumbreon (Post 6055944)
wats the point in HMs then if threy do the same as a TM?

You... have played the games, yes? Field moves? That's what makes them unique, the ability to get around obstacles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Caterpie (Post 6055548)
And I dislike the idea of a complete TM overhaul. It's also not possible, because it's been confirmed (has it?) that we can transfer Pokemon from DPPt/HGSS to this. Thus, we must keep the TMs, or we'd get a billion illegal move combos, like Breloom with Thunderpunch + Poison Heal from DPPt era.

Yeah, it's been confirmed. Besides, not only is your point correct, but we also have to consider that, y'know, with the whole "transferring-Pokemon" minigame like in Gen IV, the TM list needs to be the same since we can transfer items with Pokemon as well. I'd predict... oh, another fifty or so TMs at least? We got around forty additional from the third-to-fourth generation switch.

Karel_Kazuki August 10th, 2010 2:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammuthegreat (Post 6055739)
Ok... I'm gonna go ahead and quote bits of what you said, and then quote the bits of my previous post that you clearly did not read.

From you:



From me:



From you:



From me:



So in fact, I had thought of everything you claimed that I had not. Maybe read through my obvious ideas and logic before putting them in quotation marks and ridiculing them.

Dude, what you are saying is what Game Freak Has done.

THe License you are talking about?The badges.
Note that after every Gym battle they say, the badges now allows you to use(HM) now.That is already implemented.The license design you speak of would just take up Kilobytes for what could be used for something else.


So what you are talking about needing a license for is already done and therefore null.Understand what you say and look at what has been done already.

pkmn.master August 10th, 2010 3:22 PM

Looks like someone actually created a CD player that won't break the CDs...
I like the idea as a competetive battler. When I try to make additions to my team, I find that I use TMs like Earthquake many times. Writing a cheak for 80 battle points is terrible. Getting those is time consuming. A limit to TMs isn't a great idea. There are hundreds of new TMs and people can just trade their Pokemon from HG/SS holding other TMs. I wonder if you'll be able to sell them?


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