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-   -   5th Gen TMs & HMs Discussion (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=228545)

Gardenia101 August 10th, 2010 4:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkmn.master (Post 6057292)
Looks like someone actually created a CD player that won't break the CDs...
I like the idea as a competetive battler. When I try to make additions to my team, I find that I use TMs like Earthquake many times. Writing a cheak for 80 battle points is terrible. Getting those is time consuming. A limit to TMs isn't a great idea. There are hundreds of new TMs and people can just trade their Pokemon from HG/SS holding other TMs. I wonder if you'll be able to sell them?

Well, if you could it would be worth alot of money

That or you wouldn't be able to at all.

Although some of the better, rarer ones could be impossible to sell but the useless ones would be sellable (Like the Moonstones in the Earlier games)

MistahDude August 10th, 2010 5:22 PM

They might just make it harder to get TMs

Blueknight August 10th, 2010 6:40 PM

Now I can re-use those pesky TM's that only come once. (Drain Punch, Charge Beam) or those that cost BP/coins. (Ice Beam, Earthquake) Uuugh I hated those.

They may just add another 50 new TM's or something. Because that's so many, they don't want to add so ways to recollect them all.

ArkansasRazorback August 10th, 2010 7:17 PM

I hate the itemfinder...they better not make it to where you have to use it more

Karel_Kazuki August 10th, 2010 7:33 PM

I just noticed that 92 plus 8 Hms =100, so They could add either an extra 50 or Change around the ones already made.

Cyberglass August 10th, 2010 7:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 6057820)
But who says they're going to use already existing TMs? I would imagine since they're starting fresh, that they would just add a new bunch of TMs that we've never seen before...but then again I doubt this would happen, this would be like, a complete renovation from it's predecessors.

They have to use the already existing TMs, since we can transfer Pokemon, and therefore items, from Gen. 4. It wouldn't make sense to have the TM change its attack when it transfers over.

dragon0fangz August 10th, 2010 9:13 PM

Make every move a TM. No, that would be crazy. but just imagine. also, have more tms available really early, like Return was in Platinum. So i dont have to deal with Scratch for the next 10 levels or so.
Also, I highly doubt you can transfer items over. You couldn't in Pal Park. (to my knowledge)

Sammuthegreat August 11th, 2010 1:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karel_Kazuki (Post 6057162)
Dude, what you are saying is what Game Freak Has done.

THe License you are talking about?The badges.
Note that after every Gym battle they say, the badges now allows you to use(HM) now.That is already implemented.The license design you speak of would just take up Kilobytes for what could be used for something else.


So what you are talking about needing a license for is already done and therefore null.Understand what you say and look at what has been done already.

*FACEPALM FACEPALM FACEPALM*

No. You're not listening to me. You still clearly haven't read my whole original post. I have actually played every generation of Pokemon games, and therefore am completely aware that the Badges do what I have suggested the licences could.

My licences suggestion was a way of keeping the current system, whereby badges allow HM moves to be used outside of battle - as I stated in this part of the post:

Quote:

And to stay in line with the current system whereby you can't use HMs outside of battle until you earn the relevant badge, the following could be implemented:
... but giving a sensible, slightly more believable explanation for why you'd have to wait a certain while to perform such moves outside of battle.

Again if you'd read my post, you'd know that I only suggested "Licences" because it makes no sense for a Pokemon that could innately swim, for example, to suddenly be able to swim after earning a badge. A Seaking doesn't suddenly learn how to swim when it beats an arbitrary Gym. That's why I suggested licences - your Seaking could swim all along, but you as a trainer are only allowed to ride the Seaking when you've proven yourself to be a strong enough trainer to handle the responsibility of undertaking dangerous sea voyages unaccompanied - that is, by earning a licence proving your competence. The mechanics would remain exactly the same - i.e. to use an out-of-battle move, you have to beat a Gym - and you can call them licences or badges, it really doesn't matter because they perform the exact same function either way. At least my explanation makes sense though, unlike the current one - you shouldn't need to teach a fish how to swim, or to teach a dragon how to use its claws to cut down a tree, or to teach a big strong Pokemon like Machamp how to apply its power to move a stone. Therefore HMs make no sense and should be abolished in favour of innate out-of-battle abilities.

There really would be no major upheaval to the game mechanics; my idea would simply remove an unnecessary inconvenience. And how much better would it be to ride an Arcanine or a Suicune across the land than a bike... How much better would it be to actually be towed behind your favourite Squirtle instead of sitting on a random Wailmer sprite when you surf... And most importantly, how much better would it be if your Charmeleon could Cut down a tree using the claws it was born with instead of having to waste a valuable move slot with a useless move!?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon0fangz (Post 6058168)

Also, I highly doubt you can transfer items over. You couldn't in Pal Park. (to my knowledge)

You could, which was fortunate, because it meant I got a whole load of Psychic/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Flamethrower TMs onto my Diamond game for free...

Gymnotide August 11th, 2010 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammuthegreat (Post 6058518)
*FACEPALM FACEPALM FACEPALM*

No. You're not listening to me. You still clearly haven't read my whole original post. I have actually played every generation of Pokemon games, and therefore am completely aware that the Badges do what I have suggested the licences could.

My licences suggestion was a way of keeping the current system, whereby badges allow HM moves to be used outside of battle - as I stated in this part of the post:



... but giving a sensible, slightly more believable explanation for why you'd have to wait a certain while to perform such moves outside of battle.

Again if you'd read my post, you'd know that I only suggested "Licences" because it makes no sense for a Pokemon that could innately swim, for example, to suddenly be able to swim after earning a badge. A Seaking doesn't suddenly learn how to swim when it beats an arbitrary Gym. That's why I suggested licences - your Seaking could swim all along, but you as a trainer are only allowed to ride the Seaking when you've proven yourself to be a strong enough trainer to handle the responsibility of undertaking dangerous sea voyages unaccompanied - that is, by earning a licence proving your competence. The mechanics would remain exactly the same - i.e. to use an out-of-battle move, you have to beat a Gym - and you can call them licences or badges, it really doesn't matter because they perform the exact same function either way. At least my explanation makes sense though, unlike the current one - you shouldn't need to teach a fish how to swim, or to teach a dragon how to use its claws to cut down a tree, or to teach a big strong Pokemon like Machamp how to apply its power to move a stone. Therefore HMs make no sense and should be abolished in favour of innate out-of-battle abilities.

There really would be no major upheaval to the game mechanics; my idea would simply remove an unnecessary inconvenience. And how much better would it be to ride an Arcanine or a Suicune across the land than a bike... How much better would it be to actually be towed behind your favourite Squirtle instead of sitting on a random Wailmer sprite when you surf... And most importantly, how much better would it be if your Charmeleon could Cut down a tree using the claws it was born with instead of having to waste a valuable move slot with a useless move!?



You could, which was fortunate, because it meant I got a whole load of Psychic/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Flamethrower TMs onto my Diamond game for free...

tl;dr -- Badges are licenses. You try to use Scyther's sharp blades to cut down a shrub that blocks your path. A police officer comes along and asks you for your license. You show them your badge. That's how it's supposed to work in the games.

big NATE alpha August 11th, 2010 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceDragonite (Post 6053040)
every gen has a TM overhaul....


Anyway, I can sense them making us do a Wi-Fi mission for Eartquake or Giga Impact, I really hope they sell Giga Impact though

Actually... no. They just added TMs in Gen IV, the first 50 were the same as R/S/E/FR/LG.

I want a TM for Signal Beam. It's a Bug move that's actually GOOD for a change...

Karel_Kazuki August 11th, 2010 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gymnotide (Post 6059111)
tl;dr -- Badges are licenses. You try to use Scyther's sharp blades to cut down a shrub that blocks your path. A police officer comes along and asks you for your license. You show them your badge. That's how it's supposed to work in the games.

THANK YOU.
What you are trying to explain is doing nothing but wasting memory on the Game Card.WE ALL KNOW THATS WHAT BADGES ARE FOR.(sorry for caps, I'm Lazy right now.)

Why else would Gym Leaders take the time to say "Pokemon up to(insert level cap here)can now obey you."Thats a sign showing that they are capable of listening to you and they show whatever you are talking about enough to use the HM.

Sammuthegreat August 11th, 2010 1:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gymnotide (Post 6059111)
tl;dr -- Badges are licenses. You try to use Scyther's sharp blades to cut down a shrub that blocks your path. A police officer comes along and asks you for your license. You show them your badge. That's how it's supposed to work in the games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karel_Kazuki (Post 6059487)
THANK YOU.
What you are trying to explain is doing nothing but wasting memory on the Game Card.WE ALL KNOW THATS WHAT BADGES ARE FOR.(sorry for caps, I'm Lazy right now.)

Why else would Gym Leaders take the time to say "Pokemon up to(insert level cap here)can now obey you."Thats a sign showing that they are capable of listening to you and they show whatever you are talking about enough to use the HM.

OH. MY. GOD. I'm sorry I'm getting so frustrated but you're just not getting what I'm saying. I'll try and spell it out as clearly as I can, because I've clearly not done so yet.

Badges = Licences. Yes. I get that. I knew that from the start. I honestly don't give a flying !"($* what you call the things, "licence" was just a placeholder name. I wish I'd said badges instead of licences now, because it honestly makes no difference to me, they perform the same function. I want to keep the system whereby you can't use an HM move outside of battle before you earn a certain badge.

That wasn't even my original point. Now I've clarified that I already understood from the very beginning everything you've said, I can try to make my actual point a bit more clearly.

What I do not like about the game is that you are forced to teach your Pokemon a move in order for them to be capable of performing an action that they should be able to do naturally. It doesn't make any sense to me. To go back to my original example, there's no reason whatsoever that a Seaking should need to be taught how to swim. It's a fish, for God's sake. It knows how to already. Similarly, a Scyther already knows how to cut things; it has scythes for arms. It should not need to be taught how to cut things. A Pidgeot is a bird. It should not need to be taught how to Fly.

Now do you understand my point?

If there were no HMs, then this bizarre piece of illogic would no longer exist in the games. Your Pidgeot has always been able to Fly, but only once you earn Badge X are you allowed to use it outside of battle. If you have to teach a Pidgeot how to use Fly, then that suggests that the Pidgeot did not know how to fly beforehand, which is ludicrous.

Note that this system is exactly the same as the current system in that you need badges (NOT LICENCES, just to avoid confusion) to perform certain actions. But your Seaking ceases to be a fish that doesn't naturally understand how to swim.

I'm not suggesting any sort of major overhaul to the battle system, and this would not take up any extra memory on the game chip. I would like the current HM moves - Surf, Strength etc. - to remain in-battle moves. I just do not understand the logic behind making them moves that have to be taught in order for you to use them outside of battle.

I hope you understand now. Just please don't quote me and then state how "badge" and "licence" mean the same thing, because I might just have a stroke.

Dominus Temporis August 11th, 2010 2:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon0fangz (Post 6058168)
Also, I highly doubt you can transfer items over. You couldn't in Pal Park. (to my knowledge)

Um... yes you can. My multiple legitimately-gained Master Balls gotten from this method in Diamond are proof of that. Go try it yourself if you don't believe me.

I'm gonna say what I said the first time- we'll have the same TM set as the last generation (except maybe some HMs changed to different moves), along with some added TMs. That's the only way they can keep proper continuity with cross-gen transfers.

austy14 August 11th, 2010 2:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weavile05 (Post 6055925)
I would atleast like forgettable HMs, so that if you went into some deep forest, got to the exit, needed cut to get through, and the only pokemon in your party that could use it was your best pokemon (you know, something you don't want to teach cut to) and you don't have to waste your time going to a move deleter and you can just replace it with either a TM or the next move your pokemon learns. Either that or a move deleter item.

If they did this, you could surf to a little sandbar and make your surf pokemon forget surf. Then you would be stranded... unless you taught it again which completely defeats the purpose. That's why they made HMs unforgettable. Also lets say you were in the middle of surfing and you made the Pokemon forget it... would you just drown? Your Pokemon can't swim anymore! You'd be stuck, again.

And for Pokemon holding TMs... they could make them not allowed, the way HM knowing Pokemon weren't allowed to transfer to D/P/Pt.

Karel_Kazuki August 11th, 2010 3:10 PM

While I understand Your arguement, As I always have,then what would be the point of straegically having a moveset that only allows for moves?That is part of the strategy of the game.Knowing what HMS are good for what pokemon and having a team that can dominate while having said HMs.Its all apart of the trategy Game Freak has Subliminally designed for us to have.If that was possible, I would feel pretty much cheated that, "Why couldnt Cut be a move? or something?"We know that the HMS are powerful moves and you are making them sound like skills.IIf that were the Case, then we could never be able to use fly in battle because its only four moves a set and with the powerful SURF or FLY out of the way(which is one of my favorite moves),Then it would be a free space for moves.I guess I understand the idea, but it wouldnt just feel right now that game freak is far in the game.

austy14 August 11th, 2010 11:42 PM

I think some pokemon should just be able to have the obvious ability, like birds flying and fish swimming. But you have a choice to teach the move! Though that's probably too much to ask and would be weird.

Sammuthegreat August 12th, 2010 1:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karel_Kazuki (Post 6059887)
While I understand Your arguement, As I always have,then what would be the point of straegically having a moveset that only allows for moves?That is part of the strategy of the game.Knowing what HMS are good for what pokemon and having a team that can dominate while having said HMs.Its all apart of the trategy Game Freak has Subliminally designed for us to have.If that was possible, I would feel pretty much cheated that, "Why couldnt Cut be a move? or something?"We know that the HMS are powerful moves and you are making them sound like skills.IIf that were the Case, then we could never be able to use fly in battle because its only four moves a set and with the powerful SURF or FLY out of the way(which is one of my favorite moves),Then it would be a free space for moves.I guess I understand the idea, but it wouldnt just feel right now that game freak is far in the game.


Aha, now we're getting somewhere. Apologies for getting so worked up if you understood my point all along.

As for your point, I agree. Why shouldn't Fly and Cut and Strength all still be moves? I'm totally on board with that, which is what austy14 suggests in this post:


Quote:

Originally Posted by austy14 (Post 6060932)
I think some pokemon should just be able to have the obvious ability, like birds flying and fish swimming. But you have a choice to teach the move! Though that's probably too much to ask and would be weird.

I personally don't think it's weird. Current HMs could be "relegated" to normal TM status, so the in-battle moves Surf, Fly etc. are still just that - in-battle moves, like any other ordinary attack. The out-of-battle part of the moves, however, does not need to be taught; it isn't even a move, it's more just an ability.

Again, to hark back to my very first post on the matter, I don't think this will happen in Black and White, if ever. I just personally feel it would make so much more sense than the system GameFreak did decide to use, and I wish they'd used this system way back in Red/Green/Blue.

MistahDude August 12th, 2010 2:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 6057753)
Well I honestly don't see why this would turn out to be the case. It would make building teams a much harder aspect for people, and I don't see why they'd make it harder. What I personally don't hope they would do is screw with the method of obtaining TMs such as they did with HG/SS with the removal of the game corner. >> Lets keep this game American and American only.

Those who live in Europe have their own versions of the game(I hope I'm not causing offense to anyone in Europe, it's not your fault, it's NoE most likely), and people in America have theirs.

I was talking about higher prices for TMs and possibly higher point values in Battle Frontier places.

Ho-Oh August 12th, 2010 6:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by austy14 (Post 6060932)
I think some pokemon should just be able to have the obvious ability, like birds flying and fish swimming. But you have a choice to teach the move! Though that's probably too much to ask and would be weird.

Yeah but then that won't cover the other water/flying types, who fit into that category but aren't birds or fish. Then that'd mean Geodude, etc, would need to naturally have strength and since they aren't creatures...

Sammuthegreat August 12th, 2010 8:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever (Post 6061584)


Yeah but then that won't cover the other water/flying types, who fit into that category but aren't birds or fish. Then that'd mean Geodude, etc, would need to naturally have strength and since they aren't creatures...

It'd be very easy to do. Think about it - currently there is a list of Pokemon that can learn Surf. Those would be the Pokemon that would have the "ability" to swim. Similarly Strength, Cut and all the other HMs.

Ho-Oh August 12th, 2010 8:06 AM

Yeah but that post was in relation to real-life things, such as fish literally swimming, etc.

It could work if it wasn't based entirely on real-life (for that idea, at least).

Westie7 August 12th, 2010 8:16 AM

Reusable TMs, eh?

This is both good and bad for me. It means we're probably going to have to try a lot harder to find them, but they're reusable. So helpful and harmful.

For HMs, as long as we still have access to Surf and Waterfall for (nearly) all Water Pokemon, Fly for all Flying Pokemon, and Strength in some way or another, it's fine with me.

Planetes. August 12th, 2010 8:42 AM

I wouldn't mind HMs if you could delete them easily, but alas you have to go through nearly the entire game until you get to the move deleter.
I hope the Tms are hard to find though, it will add a challenge. They might put one up as a reward for a Wi-Fi quest.

Ho-Oh August 12th, 2010 8:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceDragonite (Post 6061957)
I hope the Tms are hard to find though, it will add a challenge. They might put one up as a reward for a Wi-Fi quest.

There are some who don't have wifi though, which would make it hard for them. D:

Planetes. August 12th, 2010 9:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever (Post 6061979)

There are some who don't have wifi though, which would make it hard for them. D:


wait, U haven't figured out that nintendo is EVIL yet?
They could give a crap who has Wi-Fi, I don't have Wi-Fi and I don't like it one bit.
Nintendo would stash away earthquake in a Wi-Fi mission if it made them money.


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