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The S August 12th, 2010 12:44 PM

Beyond Arceus
 
Okay, here's a bit of a logic flub in the games as I see it.

Each game has had increasingly powerful Legends. Elemental representatives gave way to personification of the earth, sea, and sky, and then to anthropomorphized time, space, and dimension. This all culminated with Arceus last generation, who, for all intents and purposes, is God.

So where do we go from here? How can Black and White have something beyond God? Will it be Chaos and Order? The Void? Will we be able to capture The Universe itself? Am I over-thinking things?

Rengoku August 12th, 2010 12:48 PM

Well Arceus created the universe :P
But nothing is impossible.

Now we can talk about life, like real life, global warming? Natural and man made disaster?

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire August 12th, 2010 1:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rilence (Post 6062664)
Well Arceus created the universe :P
But nothing is impossible.

Now we can talk about life, like real life, global warming? Natural and man made disaster?

Lol we already had Global warming, remember Groudon and Kyogre :P?

Silver25 August 12th, 2010 1:30 PM

The way I see it, Arcues created Sinnoh but not the entire universe. I mean yeah, myths say it did but myths are still myths and can be greatly exaggerated. The people who learned of Arceus may have thought that Sinnoh was the entire world back then. So they still have plenty of options for legendaries.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire August 12th, 2010 1:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver25 (Post 6062832)
The way I see it, Arcues created Sinnoh but not the entire universe. So they still have plenty of options for legendaries.

Well the Sinnohians believe that Arceus created the Universe according to the Pokedex and as we all know all the myths in Pokemon are real...

Silver25 August 12th, 2010 1:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire (Post 6062858)

and as we all know all the myths in Pokemon are real...

Not trying to start something but how do we know ALL of the myths are real? We know the legendaries are real but what else do we know? (just for clarification)

Gymnotide August 12th, 2010 1:38 PM

Whether or not Arceus created the world is out of the question. If it's just a myth, then he's just another Pokemon, subject to the same fate as every Pokemon. If he indeed did create the world, there's nothing saying that he still has dominion over it. With Zekrom and Reshiram, we've gotten Pokemon which don't just create / destroy, but rather affect the development of the world, whether into technological or natural spheres.

tl;dr -- Arceus = birth, Zekrom + Reshiram = development

The S August 12th, 2010 1:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rilence (Post 6062664)
Well Arceus created the universe :P
But nothing is impossible.

Good point. But I imagine being able to capture all of existence in a Pokéball would be a logical step.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire August 12th, 2010 1:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver25 (Post 6062883)
Not trying to start something but how do we know ALL of the myths are real? We know the legendaries are real but what else do we know? (just for clarification)

Well Groudon and Kyogre creating the Land and the Sea is real according to RSE that is one of the real myths, I think all the others are real too but who knows...

austy14 August 12th, 2010 1:49 PM

Well I think Arceus did just create sinnoh... and as for the Pokedex entry, aren't these written by MAN? It's not like the Pokemon said it.

knook August 12th, 2010 1:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire (Post 6062923)

Well Groudon and Kyogre creating the Land and the Sea is real according to RSE that is one of the real myths, I think all the others are real too but who knows...

Well then Arceus didn't create the 'Universe' because the land and sea was created by Groundon and Kyogre... I'm going to assume the myths hold reality but are greatly exaggerated

Legendmaster#1 August 12th, 2010 1:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The S (Post 6062653)
The Void? Will we be able to capture The Universe itself? Am I over-thinking things?

Can somebody say Darkrai&Arceus?

Charizard★ August 12th, 2010 1:51 PM

Nothing is going to be bigger then Arceus, Mew was supposed to be on top, but then Arceus took its place.

Silver25 August 12th, 2010 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire (Post 6062923)

Well Groudon and Kyogre creating the Land and the Sea is real according to RSE that is one of the real myths, I think all the others are real too but who knows...

Well we know that for Hoenn, but not for sure regarding Kanto, Johto, Orange Islands, Sinnoh, etc...

My thoughts on the whole "legendary created this" factor is that the legends hold true for the respective regions, but we don't know for sure regarding the other regions and the entire Pokemon world.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Charizard★ (Post 6062949)
Nothing is going to be bigger then Arceus, Mew was supposed to be on top, but then Arceus took its place.

Well Mew is only the ancestor of all Pokemon, it was never a god or anything like that (although many believed it at first).so it wasn't very hard to top it in that sense. But IF in fact Arceus did create the entire world, like a previous post said there are still options like "legendary Pokemon keeping the balance" and stuff like that. There could be something bigger than Arceus (which I really do hop for because personally I don't like Arceus' design at all).

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire August 12th, 2010 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charizard★ (Post 6062949)
Nothing is going to be bigger then Arceus, Mew was supposed to be on top, but then Arceus took its place.

Yeah, though it was easier for someone to think up something more powerful than Mew...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver25 (Post 6062961)
Well we know that for Hoenn, but not for sure regarding Kanto, Johto, Orange Islands, Sinnoh, etc...

My thoughts on the whole "legendary created this" factor is that the legends hold true for the respective regions, but we don't know for sure regarding the other regions and the entire Pokemon world.

They don't only mentioned that G and K created Hoenn but the whole landmass and sea/oceans of the world...So I see the same for Arceus
Johto's myths were all real as they were mostly about the existence of the legendary pokemon rather than what created what :), Kanto didn't really have any myths, just three very powerful birds, the only myth was Mew and that was considered an Urban or new myth...

orange discontent August 12th, 2010 2:10 PM

Arceus as God is just a Sinnoh myth. He's powerful, of course, but a god? Obviously, that's just a legend.

Charizard★ August 12th, 2010 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver25 (Post 6062961)



Well Mew is only the ancestor of all Pokemon, it was never a god or anything like that (although many believed it at first).so it wasn't very hard to top it in that sense. But IF in fact Arceus did create the entire world, like a previous post said there are still options like "legendary Pokemon keeping the balance" and stuff like that. There could be something bigger than Arceus (which I really do hop for because personally I don't like Arceus' design at all).

If there is something bigger, it'll just be plain dumb. I mean Arceus created the Universe. :/

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire August 12th, 2010 2:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charizard★ (Post 6062989)
If there is something bigger, it'll just be plain dumb. I mean Arceus created the Universe. :/

Unless pokemon goes for the Multiverse and has a pokemon that created the chaos that was used to create the multiple Universes :/?

Charizard★ August 12th, 2010 2:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire (Post 6063000)

Unless pokemon goes for the Multiverse and has a pokemon that created the chaos that was used to create the multiple Universes :/?

It would become a mess and to uncoordinated. :I

The S August 12th, 2010 2:19 PM

lol, people are squabbling whether Arceus is ultimately God, if He created the universe or not...

It's just like real life.

Quote:

(which I really do hop for because personally I don't like Arceus' design at all).
Aw, I find that kind of sad. I think it's cool because he's based on the qilin.

Also: Just because I thought it fit into this topic for some reason:


OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire August 12th, 2010 2:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The S (Post 6063005)
lol, people are squabbling whether Arceus is ultimately God, if He created the universe or not...

It's just like real life.


Aw, I find that kind of sad. I think it's cool because he's based on the qilin.

Also: Just because I thought it fit into this topic for some reason:


I wonder why he seems to need the Unown to make them though?

Zaroas August 12th, 2010 2:30 PM

I'm actually against the idea that Arceus created the universe, especially since the Canalave Library book that involves Arceus says that there was a chaos that its egg was in. I'm pretty sure Arceus must have dispelled the chaos or something, because something had to create that before Arceus even came along. Also, remember that it might just be part of the Sinnoh people's myths, not actually what happened.

Charizard★ August 12th, 2010 2:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaroas (Post 6063041)
I'm actually against the idea that Arceus created the universe, especially since the Canalave Library book that involves Arceus says that there was a chaos that its egg was in. I'm pretty sure Arceus must have dispelled the chaos or something, because something had to create that before Arceus even came along. Also, remember that it might just be part of the Sinnoh people's myths, not actually what happened.

He was probably made by something or a collision in space. :l

psychicboy August 12th, 2010 2:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire (Post 6063027)
I wonder why he seems to need the Unown to make them though?

The answer here is simple. He/She/It doesn't need the Unown, they are just attracted to powers beyond understanding. This is also a reason they appeared during Dialga's and Palkia's cataclysmic battle. They also appeared while Memory Entei was attacking Ash and his friends(iirc).


Anything I just said up there is completebullshi- and I made it up on the spot. We all know Smeargle created the Universe by painting it :/

Tomackze August 12th, 2010 2:47 PM

Well maybe Arceus created "this" universe and these legendaries are a part of a different universe that has just come to Earth? Similar to Deoxys basically...

And there have always been some overlap, like Lugia was the Guardian of the Seas and then Kyogre became the true leader of the water. And also Ho-Oh created the three legendary dogs and Mew "created" Mewtwo but yet Arceus technically created all pokemon.

So there are overlap and they will probably just ignore it. Or they'll keep Arceus as the strongest and just introduce other legendaries who have their role in their regions, but not as big of a role as the big four: Arceus, Dialga, Giratina, Palkia

Zaroas August 12th, 2010 2:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charizard★ (Post 6063055)
He was probably made by something or a collision in space. :l

What would have collided in space, and what is 'something' supposed to be? That was kind of contradictory to what you said before, because you said that it would be stupid if something was bigger that Arceus because Arceus created the universe. But here you're saying that something made Arceus or a collision in space created Arceus, which in turn created the universe. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Silver25 August 12th, 2010 2:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychicboy (Post 6063070)
The answer here is simple. He/She/It doesn't need the Unown, they are just attracted to powers beyond understanding. This is also a reason they appeared during Dialga's and Palkia's cataclysmic battle. They also appeared while Memory Entei was attacking Ash and his friends(iirc).

I never thought of it that way. Nice answer.

Gymnotide August 12th, 2010 3:08 PM

Guys, this thread is so off-topic, it's ridiculous.
We're supposed to be talking about possible new legends, not speculating over how Arceus works.

Åzurε August 12th, 2010 3:32 PM

Back on topic (I suggest heading on over to Pokemon General and re-purposing this there), who said we have to go beyond Arceus? Just make new legendaries. Zek/Reshi's symbolism beyond Yin/Yang is as-of-yet unrevealed. Who says they have to be part of something bigger than Arceus?
It's like saying Pokemon look like Digimon. =/

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire August 12th, 2010 4:23 PM

The interesting thing is that I read that Yin and Yang were created by Pangu...which Arceus is based on...so did Arceus maybe create Rashiram and Zekrom too and maybe Latias and Latios :o!
I don't think we will ever have something beyond Arceus...I think they will most likely just give it stronger formes if they want to make a stronger Arceus...

The S August 12th, 2010 4:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaroas (Post 6063041)
I'm actually against the idea that Arceus created the universe, especially since the Canalave Library book that involves Arceus says that there was a chaos that its egg was in. I'm pretty sure Arceus must have dispelled the chaos or something, because something had to create that before Arceus even came along. Also, remember that it might just be part of the Sinnoh people's myths, not actually what happened.

Well, in many real world myths, there was chaos or some sort of primordial void prior to any creator deities, and the deity(ies) was/were spawned within it. The same could hold true with Arceus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Åzurε (Post 6063204)
Back on topic (I suggest heading on over to Pokemon General and re-purposing this there), who said we have to go beyond Arceus? Just make new legendaries. Zek/Reshi's symbolism beyond Yin/Yang is as-of-yet unrevealed. Who says they have to be part of something bigger than Arceus?
It's like saying Pokemon look like Digimon. =/

The idea wasn't that the new version mascots were supposed to be bigger than Arceus, but that some other Legend beyond them, possibly as an event Pokémon, would be, since the games have a history of one-upping its previous version's Legends.

Ho-Oh August 12th, 2010 4:36 PM

Yeah you guys are getting a bit off-topic, which is where I see this thread going. As Åzurε said, I think this thread would be better suited to Pokemon General (where you'll have more freedom to discuss this, as in, being allowed to discuss Arceus as a whole, in comparison to here, where you can't), rather than here, because yes, you are speculating on future legendaries, however, with a topic like this, it's easy to get off-topic and start discussing Arceus as a whole instead of legendaries.

If you'd like to continue this discussion, you could discuss it in Pokemon General, in the third game legendary thread (although I'm not suggesting that something after Arceus would be in the third game, but, you never know), or more specifically, the legendaries discussion thread, where you are free to speculate on new legendaries, too.

Locked.


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