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-   -   Love instead of EV's! (A letter to all trainers, especially to competitive ones) (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=229214)

BartCiao August 15th, 2010 5:17 AM

Love instead of EV's! (A letter to all trainers, especially to competitive ones)
 
Hi to everybody!

I just wanted to share my thoughts with you about competitive play, Ev-training and all that kind of stuff. I've once tried it, but after I bred my perfect nature pokemon I felt sad, because now I just threw away my old pokemon. And it may sound a little weird, and you may think I have a mental disease, but they were some kind of friends of me. After all, I loved some of those.
And what is the message of all the Pokemon games? That love is the most elemental thing for training your pokemon. And not because then your Return becomes stronger... No, because love is what really is important in the world.
Like my signature says: "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled Trainers should try to win with the Pokémon they love best." And what is happening in the competitive play. They use their pokemon as machines, only training those pokemon who are useful, instead of training those who they love. IF they're training them, because nowadays there is ShoddyBattle, where you can set the level and nature etc. of your pokemon. Even worse...
That trainers are not that truly skilled trainers. They pretend to be skilled trainers, just because they have strong pokemon. But if you want to be a truly skilled trainer, please, use the pokemon you love and form a team with them.
And I know that's hard, but I have a tip: study your team very well and make a strategy based on your Pokémon. Don't make up a strategy and find pokemon to fit in that strategy. Then you have the wrong order.
I hope I will cause a revolution with this, but I think it's not very probable... Anyway, good luck to become a truly skilled trainer.

Bart, a truly skilled trainer.

EDIT:
The most-heard argument is (till now): Pokemon are just pieces of data/battle machines after all. Yes, if you see Pokemon as battle machines, it's not a miracle that you treat them as battle machines. Well, I guess that's the conclusion of the discussion. I personally am very attached to my Pokemon as individuals. But, if you don't have that amount of imagination, you probably see them as pieces of data. And then I can imagine (haha, funny word play :) you use them as pieces of data. Still I can't imagine how you can't imagine pokemon as individuals.
A lot of imagine by the way :P

EDIT:
I was laying in bed yesterday-evening, and I couldn't sleep, so I was thinking about many things. About this thread too. Then I realized that the main argument heard her, Pokemon are just pieces of data/battle machines, is the root of many bad things in the world. Just my thoughts, not a declaration of truth! Because if everybody was treated like an individual person instead of a number/someone people can make money of/or whatever else this would be a better world. A few time ago there was a famous person in The Netherlands who commited suicide because some boss of a big company was pressing him to give money. The boss didn't see the man as an individual person, but as someone he could make money of. Something else: if the people in Pakistan who are hurt by the floods etc. are not seen as *one of the 2000* but as a human who is really sad because his whole family is dead and his house is destroyed, then people would care a lot more about them. Just some thoughts, maybe a bit off-topic, but it's my topic, so I can go off-topic, right?:P
PS: sorry for the sometimes bad english.

rndm. August 15th, 2010 5:25 AM

This again...

I, for one, don't believe in loving pieces of data and caring for them. For that, there are real people and pets.

Kylie-chan August 15th, 2010 7:04 AM

I treat my Pokemon well and I still EV train them and battle with them. Battling with your Pokemon doesn't mean you don't love them. In truth I know they are just data but some of the most fun aspects of the game involve raising Pokemon and sticking with them to the end. I also like battling. Love and battling aren't mutually exclusive. Just because I don't always play with my favourites doesn't mean I don't have favourite Pokemon that I often have in my party. I don't use Teddiursa or Pachirisu, but I still like them a lot, use them in contests, and own merchandise of them irl. Honestly, they're just data, and people can play with their data the way they like.

Timbjerr August 15th, 2010 7:16 AM

I can see where you have a point, but there is one fatal flaw in your argument. Pokemon amount to nothing more than a few lines of coding. They're not like the pet dogs I've owned irl, they're characters in a video game that are encouraged to fight one another. Thus it's only natural for people to become competitive and try to maximize their potential with theirs. XD

Kylie-chan August 15th, 2010 7:19 AM

Exactly... the plots of the main series games revolve around beating the evil team and the gym league. ><; What's the difference between getting EVs to battle people and just facing off against the leaders?

BartCiao August 15th, 2010 7:36 AM

No, battling could be even an expression of love for your Pokemon. But... as said before, you should battle with the pokemon you love and not the strongest pokemon. At least, if you're a truly skilled trainer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rndm. (Post 6072888)
This again...

I, for one, don't believe in loving pieces of data and caring for them. For that, there are real people and pets.

Ok... but I wouldn't have much fun with the game if I wouldn't love my pokemon and care for them. I know better strategy games...
And about 'real' people and pets: I guess I've just more fantasy than you.

xPsychosocial August 15th, 2010 8:50 AM

How can you love something that isn't real? These things are merely data in a video game. =\ In these games your goals are to capture Pokémon and battle trainers. So I guess creating strong Pokémon is somewhat necessary. =\

Silhouette August 15th, 2010 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BartCiao (Post 6072871)
I just wanted to share my thoughts with you about competitive play, Ev-training and all that kind of stuff. I've once tried it, but after I bred my perfect nature pokemon I felt sad, because now I just threw away my old pokemon.

I know what you mean, as I EV and (in a way) value my Pokemon. But, what's making you throw away your old Pokemon. Heck, I get more use out of my in-game team that have crap natures, terrible EV's from going through the storyline, and probably horrid IV's, but rarely do I take my EV'd Pokemon out of their boxes.

Beside, there's Shoddy and Pokemon Online for that. I got fed up with EV'ing for hours on end to just get pwned. XD

King Gumball August 15th, 2010 1:49 PM

I EV train them with love <3

Ev Trainer X August 15th, 2010 3:40 PM

I think I speak for the entirety of the pokemon fanbase, competitive or otherwise, when I say that if pokemon were real, then none of us would treat them like machines.

But really, sad as it may be, they're just data. Nothing more.

Aether★ August 15th, 2010 3:47 PM

I do not EV train them - I have an emulator, which means no trading and battling - no sense to make uber strong team, for only myself. I'm only grind them much, for better in-game battling, CPU trainers are so easy when you are over-leveled.

BartCiao August 16th, 2010 9:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silhouette (Post 6073987)
I know what you mean, as I EV and (in a way) value my Pokemon. But, what's making you throw away your old Pokemon. Heck, I get more use out of my in-game team that have crap natures, terrible EV's from going through the storyline, and probably horrid IV's, but rarely do I take my EV'd Pokemon out of their boxes.

Beside, there's Shoddy and Pokemon Online for that. I got fed up with EV'ing for hours on end to just get pwned. XD

I didn't threw away them, but I put them in the boxes and never played with them. After a while, I felt bad about it so I took them up again.
Shoddy is bad, it's making people use their Pokemon as battle machines...

Sydian August 16th, 2010 9:46 AM

On Shoddy, you're not even technically using your Pokemon. I admit, once I name them, I'm attached, but not in this kind of way. When it gets down to it, Pokemon are nothing more than pixels.

Blue Oak August 16th, 2010 9:57 AM

I agree with the above.

However, I can technically say I do "love" them, as all pokemon are my favourites :P

Seriously, there's no point trying to convert people mate.

The Red Chain August 16th, 2010 2:18 PM

I don't think it's crazy to feel attached to Pokemon, despite how pixely they may be. |3
Afterall, during gameplay you spend hours training your Pokemon and using them to win in-game battles and woop some evil guy butt.
How is it weird to be attached to your hard work?

It's a great dream to want everyone to use Pokemon they love.. but who's to say the competitive battlers don't love the Pokemon they use? Maybe they don't feel the same closeness you feel to your Pokemon Bart, but sadly not everyone will feel the same passion as you do...
It's better to have people who have passion about battling and Pokemon as a franchise, then none at all, right? :3

There are still those who love their Pokemon like you do, and use the ones they love.
But others enjoy the rush out of pure battling each other and calculating awesome strategies, like on Shoddy.
It's the best of both worlds in it's own way~


Green man August 16th, 2010 3:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BartCiao (Post 6076789)
Shoddy is bad, it's making people use their Pokemon as battle machines...

Pokémon are battle machines.. the whole point of the game is to battle with them

The Corrupt Plague August 16th, 2010 9:01 PM

Pokemon are really just random data, a bunch a zeros and ones. They were made for battling and I use them for battling because they can't feel pain or die. Heck, I wouldn't even consider them living at all because they can't even "think" and anything resembling it in the game is only the result of pseudo random calculations.

BartCiao August 17th, 2010 8:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Red Chain (Post 6077679)

I don't think it's crazy to feel attached to Pokemon, despite how pixely they may be. |3
Afterall, during gameplay you spend hours training your Pokemon and using them to win in-game battles and woop some evil guy butt.
How is it weird to be attached to your hard work?

It's a great dream to want everyone to use Pokemon they love.. but who's to say the competitive battlers don't love the Pokemon they use? Maybe they don't feel the same closeness you feel to your Pokemon Bart, but sadly not everyone will feel the same passion as you do...
It's better to have people who have passion about battling and Pokemon as a franchise, then none at all, right? :3

There are still those who love their Pokemon like you do, and use the ones they love.
But others enjoy the rush out of pure battling each other and calculating awesome strategies, like on Shoddy.
It's the best of both worlds in it's own way~


I agree with you now. I see your point. Some people just don't have enough imagination to see Pokemon in another way than pieces of data. But I don't feel attached to my hard work, but to the Pokemon. If all my save data was deleted for that Pokemon, it'd be the lvl I caught it etc., I'd still love it...

Kylie-chan August 17th, 2010 9:14 AM

I do, actually, and I still battle. I don't really see the need to use your favourites if you still love and use your non-competitive Pokemon, and I often use them in contests. Of course, others just see them as data to use. They're correct, even if it's prosaic. But we have differing points of view and there's little either side can do to convince the other. That's just how it is. What ultimately matters is that you get enjoyment out of how you play and don't transfer any misbehaviour to real life, so there's little point getting worked up about it.

Kirbychu August 17th, 2010 11:44 AM

I have similar beliefs as you, but what you say is just ridiculous. You have no right to judge others in such a way. Who's to say that people who EV train don't "love" their Pokemon (I hope you don't mean "love" as a literal term ._.) This happens to almost every video game that has a hint of competitiveness.

People are not going to use "weak" Pokemon with crap natures and IVs just so they can lose every battle they participate in. They want their Pokemon to be the best they can be, which actually is showing a lot more "love" towards them. It's can also be argued that showing more affection to one creature just because of the way it looks is no better than choosing a Pokemon for its power.

"That trainers are not that truly skilled trainers. They pretend to be skilled trainers"
Stupid, just stupid. There is a lot of skill involved when winning using the "best" Pokemon. I fail to see how someone is automatically skillful just because they use their favorites. Maybe some people's favorites are the best Pokemon out there?


Here are my feelings on the matter.

First of all, I have absolutely no problem with competitive battling. I use to enjoy it, I don't really do much competitive battling anymore because of all the cookie-cutter sets and lack of originality now a days. I blame Game Freak, since they aren't really balancing the game to well, they keep making strong Pokemon stronger, like the pseudo-legends, but are practically shunning those like Meganium and Tauros; but that's for a different argument on a different day.

I have to agree with you on one thing, half of the skill involved with Pokemon is involved with actually training the Pokemon yourself. I just hate how Shoddy Battle/Pokemon Online are overshadowing the actual game competitively. I guess it makes sense; It's quicker, you can type, etc., but it's just not for me.

Everything is perfect. Pokemon is not suppose to be perfect. You are not suppose to have perfect IVs, EVs, (Those actually can be argued, since GF is well aware that we know about them, but the average player doesn't.), natures, and movesets. You are only suppose to get one/a few Earthquake TMs. No Pokemon should be completely perfect. I have more fun battling with friends during our playthrough of the games, the lack of perfection, and the fact that you are trying to scrape up a strategy with what you have is fun for me, but I can understand it's not for everyone.

But when it comes down to it, it's just a game, and it's for fun. I don't think GF ever intended Pokemon to become so competitive, but they probably saw this new growing audience and decided to enforce it. There are now more ways for people to enjoy the game, and there's no reason to try to stop people from having fun when it isn't even harming anyone. We are all still Pokemon fans, we just have different tostes.


I think I'll just cut it off here and see if someone decides to challenge me, If that happens, I'll better explain what I'm talking about.

MrsNorrington August 17th, 2010 12:44 PM

BartCiao, I totally 100% agree with you!!!! I thought I was the only sane one who believed that and played the Pokemon games like that.

I get so angry when I go to online Pokemon forums and all people care about when it comes to their Pokemon is it's nature, IVs, EVs, etc. It's just so cruel if you think about it. What if these were real life creatures. Would we just throw them away? In fact real life abuse like this does go on, and it comes from the same motive that these gamers have and that's a scary thing. There are people who race horses, and if their horse looses a race, they sent it to slaughter and get a new horse.

I treat my Pokemon the exact same way that I treat real life animals. I treat them as the individuals that they are. I make them the best that they can be given the traits that they have been given. And that's exactly what Pokemon is about. Anyone who's seen the anime would know this-it's Ash's main message throughout the entire series.

I'm very very passionate about what you said BartCiao. I would not enjoy these games if I only looked at my Pokemon as pieces of data. Where is the fun in that? I use my imagination, and escape into the world of Pokemon. I bond with my Pokemon, I love them as they are and I would not get rid of them if they have "bad" stats. As I said, Pokemon is about friendship between humans and animals. They work together to become the best they can be, given what they have. They are not to be thrown away and abused like pieces of garbage-this was demonstrated by Ash's rival in the Diamond and Pearl series-Paul. He really abused all of his Pokemon, got rid of them when he thought they had bad stats. Treated them as being replaceable by something better. We learn from the rivalry between Ash and Paul, that Pokemon are individuals and should not be treated as trash. It makes me so sad that most people online are like Paul, and not Ash ='( As for me, I will always play Pokemon the same way that Ash does.

Elite Overlord LeSabre™ August 17th, 2010 1:06 PM

Here's my take on this matter. I use my favorite Pokemon for battles, instead of simply "who's strongest." Heck, I routinely use Persian, which I am aware is not a top-tier battling Pokemon by any stretch of the imagination.

However, I make sure that the preferred Pokemon that I use are among the best they can be. That includes mass breeding, checking IV's, ditching the ones with crap IV's, properly EV training them, and teaching them optimum movesets. Why would I use a Pokemon with a 2/5/13/7/6/4 IV spread when I can easily get one with 18/23/25/30/27/22? Why would I give Jolteon a bunch of Attack EV's by battling random Pokemon when I can maximize its Speed by simply being more selective in which Pokemon I battle? Why would I not give my Pokemon an advantageous move in battle just because I have to breed for it?

I use the Pokemon species that I like, who may not be the strongest. Why would I further hinder my chances at winning by using Pokemon within those species that are substandard?

And competitive battlers are in no way less skilled - that claim is completely false. It takes a lot of skill and patience to master breeding chains, get specimens with reasonably good IV's, and plan out optimum movesets for battle. It isn't simply a matter of what Pokemon you work with... it's what you do to make your selected Pokemon the best they can be.

But I do "love" my Pokemon. But only because Persian gets a 102-power STAB attack in the form of Return :P

The Red Chain August 17th, 2010 1:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BartCiao (Post 6080094)
I agree with you now. I see your point. Some people just don't have enough imagination to see Pokemon in another way than pieces of data.

That's a little rude don't you think? Saying someone doesn't have imagination for not having the same view as you is disrespectful.
To be respected, you must first learn to respect. In other words, if you want people to take your view seriously, then you have to respect theirs first.


KnilShadowLink August 17th, 2010 3:11 PM

Hmmm it seems to be popular to say Pokemon are just pieces of data...Well yeah that's true, but it's perfectly fine to grow attached to pieces of data, it's called sentimental value. I DO breed for certain natures, and decent IVs. I EV train my favorite Pokemon and then grow attached to them. I do pretend that the Pokemon are real, but that's only when I'm playing my game. Once I'm done playing I know that the Pokemon are just data, but I use my imagination and pretend that they're real. I pretend because I love Pokemon and think it would be amazing if Pokemon were real.

I will say this though, it does kind of sicken me when people act like Pokemon are nothing more than chess pieces. I know it's the truth, but I feel like the people that think that are boring and have no imagination Maybe it's because I grew up with Pokemon and have always pretended they were real, but I try and avoid people who think like that.

BTW sorry if my rambling made little to no sense...I'm not very good at putting my thoughts into words xD

Zaroas August 18th, 2010 11:10 AM

*Sigh*

I actually completely disagree with both sides.

To BartCiao and supporters:
Ok,, so maybe I use Shoddy, EV train, and try to use strong Pokemon. That doesn't necessarily mean I treat them as mindless drones like some of you are assuming everyone online does. Not everyone online is a living copy of this Paul character, and you're not automatically skilled if you use Pokemon you love. Say I loved Rattata a lot. If I use a party full of Rattata, does that mean I'm necessarily skilled? Does that mean that everyone online that uses strong Pokemon is pretending to be skilled? How do you even pretend to be skilled? Just because someone is saying Pokemon are pieces of data (Which would be correct) doesn't mean that they have no imagination. It's a good thing you guys are using your imagination, but it all boils down to the fact that it's a game. That's fine if you want to treat Pokemon with love - But don't go around yelling at people that don't. You have your own opinions, and they have theirs.


To the people on the other side of the argument:
You guys need to respect what they believe. If they use their favorite Pokemon and treat them with love, that doesn't mean you have to argue with people that are trying to use their imaginations and treating their Pokemon as pets. Yes, Pokemon are nothing but code, but some people treat them differently than you. Because of that, you should stop outright saying they're being stupid and such, but respect their opinion.

I personally do not see why this thread had to exist. It's just turning into a war.


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