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-   -   Euthanasia. For it or Against it? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=239732)

SamuraiMaster December 27th, 2010 11:00 PM

Euthanasia. For it or Against it?
 
Euthanasia, for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term is basically known as 'mercy killing.' It's done in movies, literature, and other forms of media we know, and it's done in real life. When we put animals down, that's euthanasia, if you take someone off life support who has no chance without it, that can be euthanasia.

But it's so controversial sometimes, and it's been on my mind today, so share your thoughts and feelings. What do you think of mercy killing?

Personally, I don't know what to think. To be perfectly honest, I respect one's wishes to be taken from life support, but at the same time, I (as a Christian) do not believe it is right in some areas. I don't mean to be forceful, but it is technically still murder, and murder is something I don't know if I could do.

My Grandmother died a couple years ago, one of her wishes was that she didn't want to be kept alive by machines. Sometimes it looked like she would pull through, but, she finally passed. It was a sad thing, and I don't consider what we did to be mercy killing, as she was alive for hours after we took off life support. I wasn't there when she passed, but part of me is thankful I wasn't there.

But another thing that may enter the arena soon, is putting pets down. My cat is getting old, and has serious gingivitis. My mom is taking him to the vet soon, and if the vet suggest putting him down, I would be in full support, because I've seen this cat, and it is stressed by a younger cat it wants nothing to do with, and he hasn't been the same since the other cats passed away. When he eats, sometimes his meows of pain are so loud, you can hear them in the other room, and it's enough to make me want to close my ears and just pray his pain goes away by magic.

Yet if we do put him down, I don't know if I would ever be comfortable with having another pet for as long as I live, because it's not the pet's decision to be put down. We make it. We basically give our pet to a random man, the animal knows nothing about, and that's that. I was wondering today that is we were to put our cat down, what would his last thought be?
"Where is this man taking me?"
"I'm scared."
"Don't let this man take me!"
I'm pretty sure the cat isn't going to think, "I'm finally gonna be at peace."

And thinking that earlier almost made me physically sick.

I'm sorry, I am rambling. Please share your thoughts.

Nick December 27th, 2010 11:04 PM

I think this would better suit OC.

Kura December 27th, 2010 11:21 PM

I dunno.. part of me think it'd be fine if there was consent.. but then other parts of me would start to think that it'd get out of hand.. like "putting down grandma" and the like.. Or like what happened in the book Children of Men.. ://

I know my grandma had a brainstem stroke. She basically couldn't even swallow her own spit, she was paralyzed from the mouth down. We didn't give up on her even though the doctors told us she had 2 weeks to live.
Guess what? She's still paralyzed in some parts of her body, but she can eat, talk, read, and use her upper body pretty much fully. It's been almost 9 years since the stroke happened. She's still with us. Sure it's hard cause we have to take care of her and everything.. but it's so worth it to have her with us.
We had the choice to take her off the feeding tube and we didn't. And she triumphed.

インフェルノの津波 December 27th, 2010 11:34 PM

I think I cried a little in reading your opening post.

Anyway I think mercy killing is like life.

Complicated to the extreme. There is no right or wrong way about it, just needs a situation. But my initial reaction at it is no. If my buddy was going to die (or like 50/50), I'd probably not kill him, since I'm always looking into the futute. I mean seriously, I never think something might end. Which is why I won't kill him, no matter how painful it is.

Although, if he had like half of his body I probably would.

Palkia December 27th, 2010 11:43 PM

I am SOOOOOOOOOO against it.

Seriously, that's like killing someone just because they are ill. But I just accept it if the person/animal cannot recover from a illness AT ALL.

Livewire December 27th, 2010 11:52 PM



That aside, Euthanasia is one of those things that is determined by perspective. I've seen what Alzheimer's, Strokes, and Cancer can do. They inflict nothing but pain and suffering. If I had a stroke, and were in a vegetative state, I wouldn't want to stick around, entombed in my own body. That would be hellish, and living like that wouldn't be worth it to me. If the situation calls for it, and if it's in the wishes of the people involved, they should be able to make that choice, to save them from further suffering.

But what Kura said is true too. Sometimes people do get better, but it's anybodies guess whether they will or not. The bottom line is you'll most likely be asked to make a decision you'd other never be able to, and you need be prepared for it. It's the toughest decision you'll ever have to make.

Mario The World Champion December 28th, 2010 12:17 AM

We did this with Dad when he got his stroke back in '09. It was bad enough that we all decided to just let him go. I know that he wouldn't be a vegetable for the rest of his life. He wanted to go out on his own terms, not like the way he went.

twocows December 28th, 2010 2:08 AM

Well, putting aside the fact that I don't believe animals don't really feel anything other than instincts, I don't see any problem with euthanasia. With regards to animals, it's up to the owner. With regards to people, it's up to the person (if the person can't give his or her consent, I think it's best to err on the side of leaving them alive).

Zet December 28th, 2010 2:27 AM

I'm all for it, for example if I was told that I had multiple brain tumors and that I was going to die a horrible painful death, I would go with euthanasia so I wouldn't feel the pain. But with anything else, it's up to the owner of a pet, or the person themselves if they don't want to die a painful death.

otaku-dono December 28th, 2010 3:01 AM

I don't see why people are against it. If someone is having a horrible time fighting a disease and it's pretty obvious they are going to die and they ask to get euthanased, who are you to actually deny them this? Would you actually want to keep them alive against their own will just because... well because of what?

The Corrupt Plague December 28th, 2010 3:03 AM

Yes, I'm all for it just as long as it's voluntary. I feel that death is something that is supposed to be quick, painless, and dignified. Personally, I would actually choose euthanasia over terminal illness or severe brain damage because sometimes, a quick death would be greatly preferable to one that is slow and painful.

Rogue planet December 28th, 2010 2:32 PM

If someone asks to die, I think it's more immoral to deny them.

When it comes to people in a coma and other similar situations where they can't speak for themselves, I'm against it unless the patient is in serious pain. Unless they've stated beforehand they'd rather die.

Basically, I think it's a choice that should only be made by the actual person. I don't think it's right to make such an important decision on behalf of another.
If they're incapable of speaking then it should just be a case of "we'll wait and see" unless they're in real pain and the chances of recovery are really slim etc. only then should it be seen as an option.

Ivysaur December 29th, 2010 1:07 AM

Euthanasia is just helping someone commit suicide. If the personal circumstances of the person who asks are that serious (incurable illness that will drop them into a vegetative state, regardless of their consciousness level; insane pain, etc), I think that the immoral thing to do is keeping them alive against their own wishes and against their own dignity.

Of course, this means that the one to choose is the own person, not anybody else. The "let's kill grandma because she's old" theory is just disgusting, and should be treated as murder equally. Taking somebody else's life without their consent is murder. If that person consents (under the previously mentioned circumstances), I don't see the problem.

King Gumball December 29th, 2010 1:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Para-Dox (Post 6364205)
I am SOOOOOOOOOO against it.

Seriously, that's like killing someone just because they are ill. But I just accept it if the person/animal cannot recover from a illness AT ALL.


Well I am completely for it.

You know some people who have strokes or a serious heart attack are paralysed in wheel chairs for life, unable to move or speak. Think of what that would be like, just knowing how much of a burden you are on your family and not even being able to talk to anyone ever again. Some people fight for years in court to get the right to have their husband/wife/parent get the deadly injection, and never get that right, so they have to be the ones to spend their life taking care of someone, who they love, but who has nothing left in life. I think for people who are completely paralyzed should be able to have the mercy killing, living years and years only able to move your eyes is inhumane. Some people do give people in that situation sleeping pills etc. and get arrested for it which is sad, they are doing the right thing, and should not be punished :(

I am only for it for those who can't even speak, and can't approve that they want a mercy killing. (mercy killings are only allowed are dying, and need to be taken off life support, or sign some contract saying that if anything happens to them, to give them the deadly injection, yes?)

Kaean December 29th, 2010 1:41 PM

If someone is terminally ill and wants to die then I think they should have that right. If someone is stuck in a vegetative state then unless they signed something ahead of time then they should be kept alive. As their is no current way of relaibly talking to people like this then I feel its better to er on the side of caution and keep them alive. However their have been advances in brain scans that show activity in the brain in these people and some have even been able to answer yes and no questions, with the scans lighting up showing when someone says yes or no.

In the field of pets I can see it going both ways. When we put our cat down it was a hard choice but he was very sick and was starving himself to death, so my mom descided that enough was enough and we put him down. We all stayed with him when he got the injection and held him and petted him as he went to sleep. To be honest I still don't know if it was the right thing to do and sometimes think about what was going through his mind when we did it.

BenjiTheKid December 29th, 2010 6:42 PM

I'm completely for it. To an extent, anyway.

In the case of animals, some vets jump on Euthanasia way too fast. Heck, when my American bulldog was getting old (he was about 9 at the time, I believe), I had mentioned on a dog forum that he was developing a bad case of arthritis and going a bit senile. Other than that, the old fella was completely healthy. Yet, someone still suggested I put him down. So, it isn't just the vets. I found the suggestion sick. Here, I had an 8 year old dog who was perfectly healthy save for arthritis and old age, and someone was telling me to consider putting him down. If it had been my grandmother, would they have said the same thing? Doubtful. Luckily, I never had to make the decision to put him down. He passed away of old age at eleven. Still, he was getting worse by the time he was 11. Just the night before he passed (he passed in his sleep), he was pacing, and throwing up, and just looked miserable. We were going to put him down, and no, I would not have felt guilty. When an animal is that bad the nicest thing you can do is Euthanasia. Especially since many of them will try to hang on even when they're that bad. My mother had a Pomeranian once- Tasha- who lived to be 18 or 19. Overnight, she seemed to have aged 10 years. She started losing fur, was constantly throwing up, seemed to always be in pain, and was senile beyond believe. (Far worse than my Am. Bulldog.) My mom put her to sleep and admits that she had second thoughts about it, but also admits that had she allowed Tasha to continue living like that until she passed away on her own, she would've never forgiven herself. Still, Euthanasia isn't something to be taken lightly. I think when deciding whether or not to put an animal down, a lot of things should be considered. There are some cases where the illness will be easy to fix. Though, older dogs have so many complications in surgery...

Where it concerns people, it all depends, as well. My step father had to have the plugs pulled on him. But that was after he'd been moved from another hospital and the hospital was 100% at fault (so much that his family even sued and won). He'd went into a coma after the move and never came out. So, the family decided to have the plugs pulled. We don't regret it. Even if he had made it out, he would've been pretty much a vegetable. Unable to really do anything on his own. If the person is terminally ill, or probably not going to come to (as in there's more than a 75% chance they won't) then I see nothing wrong with it. Honestly, if it were me, I would whether have the plugs pulled than have my family sitting around for weeks- possibly months- waiting for me to come to, only for me to die or be a vegetable in the end, anyway. But as with animals, it shouldn't be done without a lot of thought.

Ravecat December 29th, 2010 7:59 PM

Let me tell you one thing.

If you have your cat put down, be there when it is done.

He'll look for you if you leave.

>Feelings< December 29th, 2010 9:06 PM

I'm mostly against Euthanasia. The only time I'm okay with it is when the person who this applies to has given their consent, or better chose it themselves. Any other time, I dislike the idea of choosing to end someone's life without their consent.
The only time when I look at even choosing for someone else without their consent in a forgiving way is when the person who this applies to can't even talk or communicate. But even then, I don't support it, but only view it in a forgiving way.

The last condition should be that the person who this applies to must have thought it over for a while, rather than making a quick and sudden decision because of their impulses, or because of a specific moment at which they felt like a burden or felt sad with a lot of things, which they would later regret if they lived. Euthanasia without consent of the person who this applies to is almost always like murder.
At the same time, forcing someone to live in painful conditions is very cruel in itself.

Livewire December 30th, 2010 4:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaean (Post 6367291)
I However their have been advances in brain scans that show activity in the brain in these people and some have even been able to answer yes and no questions, with the scans lighting up showing when someone says yes or no.

I've heard of this too, that newer types of CAT and brain scans can see brain activity, without communication. But it isn't conclusive though, as it isn't widely performed on every coma/vegetable patient there is. But if we could, without a shadow of a doubt, be certain that their conscious mind is intact, then I wouldn't euthanize them. I'd have to be 100% certain whether they'd make it or not first.

SamuraiMaster December 30th, 2010 8:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravecat (Post 6368279)
Let me tell you one thing.

If you have your cat put down, be there when it is done.

He'll look for you if you leave.

Fortunately, it isn't as serious as I thought. Our cat's mouth was just infected again, and we are currently giving him medication, and though it's a pain to give him, he is doing much better than usual. In fact, he's sitting with me right now, pretty dang happy.

I will say however, if we did have to put him down, I would not want to be anywhere near the room. I don't think I'd ever want to be near the building. Upon reading, Kaean's post on putting his cat down, I don't think I could put myself in his position. I have a thing when it comes to something I loved being dead....okay that's not the best way to put it, but let me explain.

When we found out one of our cats had passed away two years ago, we were all pretty shocked by how sudden it was. I mean, he died a little young in my eyes (14 if I remember right, and I thought he'd live to be at least 16 or 17). And, well I had the sad honor of digging his grave. His body was in a bag at first, but as I removed the bag, my bare hand accidentally touched him. As my hand touched the cat's body, I felt a feeling I had never felt before. It was horrible. The life seemed to just drain from my hand, I felt cold, and alone, and I had to walk away for a minute and get a hold of myself.

Now if I were to be in the room petting my cat as they put him down, I would probably get sick.

As I said, I am very mixed on euthanasia and respect everyone's opinion here. And I might have to respect someone I hold close if they are in some certain state and wish to be taken off life support. But I also am a man who believes in miracles, and that they can happen when you least expect.

I dunno.

Hyperion09 December 30th, 2010 9:24 PM

But I just accept it if the person/animal cannot recover from a illness AT ALL.

...that's the point. Even in the Netherlands, one of the few areas of the world where euthanasia is legal, there's strict protocols controlling the situations it can be performed under.

Her December 30th, 2010 9:52 PM

I agree with euthanasia in most cases, if someone or something is in such uncurable pain (or has been in a coma for many years) that they're pleading to die, then we should let them go on their own terms, not by what horrible thing is afflicting them.

Melody December 30th, 2010 11:24 PM

Really I feel as if it depends on the wishes of the patient. If they wished to not be sustained on life support if they were that far gone, no matter what their reason is, I'd ask that the law should wholly respect it. Doubly so if they stated so in a legal document. I'd imagine it'd be like a check box on your Drivers Licence or ID card that simply states "Do not exceed X Days/Weeks/Months on Life Support" or "Do not resuscitate". If someone took time to list that in their records, it would be a perfect way to "fairly" legalize a mercy killing. Additionally there could be an option that says "DO NOT Euthanize" if that is indeed their wish, which would prevent family members from making that hard choice...and thus preventing abuse of that. Heck, one could theoretically place a limit saying "Euthanize if Medical costs exceed $X"

So long as these wishes are registered when the person is sane and healthy, it shouldn't be a problem to allow Euthanasia.

I don't oppose it if there is truly no other choice. If medical science cannot do absolutely anything to heal them within 5 years, then it's probably high time to let go anyways.
If there are treatment options, then they should be tried first. If the treatment is experimental and expensive, the government should pay most of the cost if the risk doesn't exceed a 70% chance of failure.

Short and sweet: If there is no other option to save them, then yes, it is fine. If the patient had no intent on file to stay alive or intent to be allowed to die, then and only then should the immediate family have any say on the matter. If there is any treatment option, then it should be tried enough times for a panel of doctors to say it's not viable.
("Enough times" depends on the treatment in question, if it can be safely repeated, it should be if other options fail, depending on the panel's decision.)

Ωmega December 31st, 2010 2:55 AM

When it comes to euthanasia, I'm for it, but under certain circumstances. As stated many times, the whole concept of "consent" is important because, without it, it's just murder. If someone is in perfect health and wishes to kill themselves with your help, that's assisted suicide and I see that as morally unjust. If someone is in dire pain, incurable illness, etc., and wishes to end the agony associated with staying alive, then I do not see the problem with euthanizing people.

I mean, c'mon: we euthanize dogs and cats, right? Do we ask their consent? Nope. Well, we can't because well...they're lesser animals that lack the cognitive functions to speak with us (I'm rambling....>.<). What of that of vegetative people? They are, essentially, at the cognitive level of lesser animals and, as such, should be one of the rare cases where they could be euthanized without their consent as long as there is majority agreement between next-of-kin and in agreement with the doctor.

Mercy killing. That's all it is. Bringing one out of pain so that they don't have to deal with it anymore. =/

Rich Boy Rob December 31st, 2010 3:14 PM

Well to quote my old Philosophy & Ethics (jumped up RE) teacher; "If it comes to the point where I need someone else to wipe my arse for me, I want to be put down".
As for putting down pets, I'm for it when they are in dire suffering. As sad as it is for them to die, it's better than them being in constant pain. As twocows said though, I don't believe household pets have much in terms of higher thought.


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