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-   -   5th Gen Post-e4: Were the older Pokemon NEEDED? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=246905)

Ho-Oh March 22nd, 2011 12:53 AM

Post-e4: Were the older Pokemon NEEDED?
 
This question can apply to both those who have beaten the main story, as well as those who haven't yet but are aware that you can find past Pokemon after the elite four.

You play through the games right up until the end of the elite four, with only Unova Pokemon in battles, in the wild, everywhere. It's pushed that these games are a new start and far away from other games, but then once you defeat the elite four, suddenly all these older Pokemon appear out of nowhere almost (of course, on that side of Unova you hadn't yet been to).

It seems that they threw them in only because they had to, to please fans. With the introduction of the Dream World, they could've easily made the older Pokemon only accessable there, and instead used the other side of Unova to feature the evolved forms of native Unova Pokemon. This is considering that on the western side of Unova there's mostly the first forms of Pokemon, most of which have at least one evolved form, which is a lot higher than in other games. In other words, the creators could afford to only have evolutions on the eastern side of Unova, rather than just cramming in Pokemon from past generations there, completely ruining the isolation and new world they were trying to create.

Do you believe the atmosphere the games were trying to create was ruined post elite four when suddenly past Pokemon appear in both trainer battles as well as the wild?

And because of this, do you think it's ever possible that we'll one day have games that can really be all new Pokemon and whether it'll get to the point that it's impossible to catch everything, because the games aren't limiting the amount of Pokemon able to be seen?


I wonder if the creators thought the older Pokemon were necessary to keep older players interested - in which case making me question whether the creators changed so much to make up for the fact that the older Pokemon were gone and that people could no longer relate to them as much.

...Anyway, before I start drifting off, just discuss. XD Anddd I'll reply later. Also please note that this is not whether you miss the older Pokemon - that has a thread for itself. This one is regarding whether the older Pokemon do ruin the post-game atmosphere.

pkmn-trainer-Stella March 22nd, 2011 1:05 AM

well i haven't played black and white but i heard about that and i think its a bunch of BS too. they should make a game where you can go to all the regions, sort of like gold/silver/crystal, and only have native pokemon of that region avaliable there. But truthfully, i'm not even buying black and white because it doesnt have the older pokemon till the end. :/ if they had them throughout the whole game i would of maybe concidered it, and the company probably knows people that way. but i dont see the point of winning the whole thing to get the team i want and have nothing more to do with them lol.

CleverProfileName March 22nd, 2011 1:21 AM

I thought that it was kinda weird that we have been in the continent the entire game and there were all these other older Pokemon just chillin over on the other half

Aaron40 March 22nd, 2011 1:28 AM

so are we giving our opinions on if the older pokemon should of been in black and white because I think you need them in it so you have a mix of old and new pokemon but waiting until the elite 4 is annoying.

LethalTexture March 22nd, 2011 1:40 AM

I can see where you're coming from on this, it does kinda wreck the feeling of the isolation a little. I was really enjoying not knowing exactly what it is that will pop up in the grass, and seeing a Pokémon I've never seen before.

However, therein lies my opinion on this matter. You have to remember that these games were aimed primarily at new players to the franchise, not hardcore players such as ourselves. therefore, beating the Elite Four and moving across to the extra portion of the map is a continuation of that for these people. To us, things like kakuna and Drifblim are old news, but to new players, don't you think that feeling of seeing a pokémon you've never seen before is continued to a whole new level?

That's what I think. I can see why many of the hardcore players are disappointed, but at the end of the day, these games aren't primarily aimed at hardcore players. We are a tertiary audience.

Opposite Day March 22nd, 2011 1:44 AM

http://i.imgur.com/8mfc9.png

It doesn't make too much sense to me that the old gen pokes would hang out anywhere in Unova barring the White Forest, it just seems.. a bit strange that eastern Unova was conveniently blocked off preE4, and hey, it turns out that that's where the old pokes hang out, who would've guessed? If nothing else the area around Castelia should probably be the place most infected with old gen mons, given how it is a metropolis and has a rather large port.. but then again I can see how some fans would be annoyed that they couldn't use their dream team vs Cynthia w/o having access to a trade partner :x

It could be worse. I, for one, love the fact that I can actually GET slowpoke in this generation as well without trading with HG/SS :]

Aaron40 March 22nd, 2011 1:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horizon (Post 6526937)
I can see where you're coming from on this, it does kinda wreck the feeling of the isolation a little. I was really enjoying not knowing exactly what it is that will pop up in the grass, and seeing a Pokémon I've never seen before.

However, therein lies my opinion on this matter. You have to remember that these games were aimed primarily at new players to the franchise, not hardcore players such as ourselves. therefore, beating the Elite Four and moving across to the extra portion of the map is a continuation of that for these people. To us, things like kakuna and Drifblim are old news, but to new players, don't you think that feeling of seeing a pokémon you've never seen before is continued to a whole new level?

That's what I think. I can see why many of the hardcore players are disappointed, but at the end of the day, these games aren't primarily aimed at hardcore players. We are a tertiary audience.

I see what you are saying and I like all the new pokemon that in black and white, I like seeing what they evolve in to but it does take time to get used to the pokemon types whcih why I think some people find the game harder. the difficulty is the same but the pokemon are different which is why I think people enjoy the older pokemon so then they can make the teams they won't and know really well but I also agree with what you are saying.

~Ryukaa March 22nd, 2011 2:49 AM

Do you believe the atmosphere the games were trying to create was ruined post elite four when suddenly past Pokemon appear in both trainer battles as well as the wild?
Yes, yes it was. I actually kinda laughed, when I found craploads of old Pokemon in the grass.
Couldn't help but remember all that advertising saying, "A brand new place and such. Not to mention that Araragi says that Pokemon from other regions are extremely rare, or something, doesn't she?

And because of this, do you think it's ever possible that we'll one day have games that can really be all new Pokemon and whether it'll get to the point that it's impossible to catch everything, because the games aren't limiting the amount of Pokemon able to be seen?
Well no. Gamefreak knows that if they don't add in the old Pokemon, there will be an abundance of haters.

MrGriszell March 22nd, 2011 3:01 AM

this whole unova being isolated was just hype up by the fans. Unova was never ment to be completly seperated from other regions. and why wouldnt trainers from other regions come to unova so it makes sense to have them there with old pokemon. And it was stated in the game that some of the older pokemon are there because they escaped from the poke transfer

danno 507 March 22nd, 2011 3:50 AM

I agree that including the old pokemon kinda ruins the whole isolation thing...I find it so refreshing not knowing the next pokemon thts going to jump out at me. Instead of throwing the old pokemon into one place after the E4 they should have let us travel back to the other regions to catch the oldies. Thts something I've been hoping for a while now, i know they did it in HG and SS but tht was only two generations worth. And by doing tht in the new gens it makes for a much bigger adventure :D

lamby101 March 22nd, 2011 4:04 AM

I preferred it when the older pokemon weren't randomly popping up all over the place. I'd much rather there be a seperate island you could travel to where older pokemon are available.

DayDreamer March 22nd, 2011 4:17 AM

If they didn't include them at all we would have a hard time completing our pokedex. You can't find your pokemon in GTS without first seeing them.

The only thing I don't like about old pokemon appearing is the high level unevolved forms. Lv60 Caterpie is a joke lol.

Eurydice March 22nd, 2011 5:23 AM

i think it does ruin the feel of the game. after how much they went through to show that unova was so far away and seprate from the other regions and how rare it is to see an older gen pokemon in the games. then they all just show up

Shorty- March 22nd, 2011 5:24 AM

I personally like the change. It makes me feel like I am starting over at square one just like the very 1st generations. Although.. i haven't reached the point of which you are referring to, but it does seem odd to throw the originals in at the last minute.

Clark March 22nd, 2011 5:31 AM

It really didn't feel the same at all after the E4. I was more upset about the sudden level jump forcing me to grind my team up past Lv60 than I was about the non-Unova Pokemon, but that bothered me as well. I like having them accessible, but I'd really rather they have kept it as limited as possible. The unexplored part of Unova didn't feel at all like the Unova I'd come to know and love over the course of the game.

JP March 22nd, 2011 5:32 AM

I don't necessarily think that it ruined the feeling of freshness. Considering the story is over, I see no harm in having old generation Pokemon past the E4. There are so many Pokemon now, it'd be practically impossible to fill the Pokedex without having some previous Pokemon within the game.

ElectricScyther March 22nd, 2011 6:06 AM

It kinda ruins everything, especially encountering wild Gravelers post-National... if we wanted them in B/W in the first place, we should have just transferred them over, not go into "Oh crap, not another wild Zubat" again.

Twilight-kun March 22nd, 2011 6:45 AM

I like the idea of "Each Pokemon is only Native to such-and-such a region"

Except Magikarp...Magikarps are EVERYWHERE

but I HATE running into wild pokemon from other regions in Isshu, mainly because Isshu is so far removed from all the other regions

I saw a map of the Pokemon Nation, and it shows
(you can find it on the Bulbapedia Wiki)
Hoenn>Johto>Kanto>Sinnoh in that order if I remember

Isshu was nowhere to be found....

Signomi March 22nd, 2011 7:04 AM

I was immensely put off when I saw all the older Pokemon in the wild after beating the Elite Four.

It—to me—voided the thought of using PokéShifter to transfer Pokemon you have from past games, despite having a lot that aren't actually availlable in the wild. It was a hope I had before Black and White was released that Unova-esque wild Pokemon everywhere in the region would make eventually building your own team of familiar faces a bit more enjoyable, as well as by gaining individual quality both in-game and through competitive play.

But unfortunately that was only a hope.

Roughsponge March 22nd, 2011 7:24 AM

It did kinda ruin the isolation aspect which had been hyped up, but the story is over, so I'm not too bothered because I quite like seeing the oldies again :)

But I think they could of handled it a little better, throwing in loads of Gen I-IV pokemon in at the end seems a bit clumsy, but oh well I can live with it.

Alternative March 22nd, 2011 7:27 AM

I don't like how that one of the biggest selling points of Unova was that it was going to be hugely isolated from the other regions, and that you'd find only the new Pokemon here, but then post-elite four and that's the majority of the Pokemon you see in the game, are from the older generation.

Ho-Oh March 22nd, 2011 7:31 AM

Time to answer my own thread in detail.

Basically, the first time I saw a Pokemon from the past (it being Jigglypuff), I knew I wasn't going to enjoy that half of Unova. I was so used to the Unova Pokemon that when I saw past Pokemon it just ruined the whole experience of after beating the story, being a whole new world. :( And after I explored, I immediately went back to the routes with just Unova Pokemon. Just yeah... seeing the others just seemed wrong, and now as a result I like the past Pokemon less because of that, in a weird way.

Shasjas March 22nd, 2011 8:23 AM

id rather they just do away with the whole isolation thing at the start and allow most pokemon to be caught throughout the game. by the time the stories finished, being able to catch the old pokemon is mostly pointless, and i want to, throughout the game, build up my team of whichever pokemon i want.

why force the new gen on us?why not appeal to the people who want new pokemon, the people who want old pokemon, and the people who want whatever pokemon they like all at once by including most pokemon throughout the game.

Kirbychu March 22nd, 2011 10:54 AM

This thread has a serious case of tl;dr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasjas (Post 6527473)
id rather they just do away with the whole isolation thing at the start and allow most pokemon to be caught throughout the game. by the time the stories finished, being able to catch the old pokemon is mostly pointless, and i want to, throughout the game, build up my team of whichever pokemon i want.

why force the new gen on us?why not appeal to the people who want new pokemon, the people who want old pokemon, and the people who want whatever pokemon they like all at once by including most pokemon throughout the game.


I totally agree, you people should be happy that they even did away with the old Pokemon before the E4. The truth is, not everyone likes the 5th generation Pokemon, my self-included. Game Freak was considerate enough to think about older fans, so the added the Pokeshifter and the older Pokemon in the wild. Completely getting rid of all the old Pokemon from the game sort of ruins the legacy too. You can't just pretend that those many years of success never happened. Don't get me wrong, the games were fantastic, but the new Pokemon actually ruined the experience for me. I liked that everything was new before the E4. It was just that everything new was hideous. Also,
if I sprited all those frames for male, female, male shiny, etc. sprites of all the Pokemon I would make sure that people see them!

When you think about it, it actually make less sense for Unova to be filled with only new Pokemon. What would they do, murder every Pokemon that comes there from Japan? Bugs, rodents, and birds all have a pretty easy time getting around. Why would domesticated Pokemon like Meowth, Growlithe, and Skitty uncommon? Are breeds from other countries instantly deported?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Signomi
I was immensely put off when I saw all the older Pokemon in the wild after beating the Elite Four.

It—to me—voided the thought of using PokéShifter to transfer Pokemon you have from past games, despite having a lot that aren't actually availlable in the wild.

Not everyone has two DSs, or the older games. Are we going to just ban these people from using the older Pokemon? It would be a major pain for them to get the older Pokemon if they weren't available in Unova.

Pyrax March 22nd, 2011 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkmn-trainer-Stella (Post 6526909)
But truthfully, i'm not even buying black and white because it doesnt have the older pokemon till the end. :/ if they had them throughout the whole game i would of maybe concidered it, and the company probably knows people that way. but i dont see the point of winning the whole thing to get the team i want and have nothing more to do with them lol.

All you have to do is go on the GTS Negotiations thing and wait until someone offers gen I-IV pokémon for your gen V pokémon.
That's how I got a shiny Aipom when I first arrived in Nacrene, only cost me a Throh from Pinwheel forest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGriszell (Post 6526995)
And it was stated in the game that some of the older pokemon are there because they escaped from the poke transfer

Kinda like introduced species, then?

Rich Boy Rob March 22nd, 2011 11:10 AM

It kinda ruined the whole complete isolation thing and surprised myself by actually not liking it when the old gens started popping up.

At least they gave a little context by plonking in that ranger gal who says she's investigating Pokémon that escaped from the Pokéshifter. Even if it is a little odd that she herself had purely foreign Pokémon.

Sammuthegreat March 22nd, 2011 11:34 AM

I think it did ruin a bit of Unova's novelty factor. I'd much rather they'd gone 100% in either direction - either made ALL 649 Pokemon available from the get-go, or made it so ONLY the Unova Pokemon were available full stop, and the only way of getting the oldies was through PokeShifter. As it is it's a bit half-hearted - they've gone for neither extreme and it doesn't really make much sense.

In any case, I've always disliked and never understood the whole Regional/National Pokedex thing. It makes no sense to me at all.

Nakuzami March 22nd, 2011 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever
Do you believe the atmosphere the games were trying to create was ruined post elite four when suddenly past Pokemon appear in both trainer battles as well as the wild?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever

And because of this, do you think it's ever possible that we'll one day have games that can really be all new Pokemon and whether it'll get to the point that it's impossible to catch everything, because the games aren't limiting the amount of Pokemon able to be seen?

Yes, I think it did ruin the atmosphere. Sure not everyone has computers or anything to use the Dream World, but we still have the Pokeshifter, plus you can trade with other people. I was getting so used to the new pokemon, and it ruined it when all of these old pokemon started to appear. Sure, it would be fine to have a few pokemon from past generations appear, like Dragonite (:P), but not as many as are in the games.

I do not believe GameFreak will ever actually make a game where no other pokemon will appear, especially since they already had one chance to do that with Unova and failed. It will never become impossible to catch every pokemon, but it may become extremely difficult. =/

fire woven March 22nd, 2011 12:15 PM

I see WHY they did it, but I dont agree with it. Or at least the method. At least with sinnoh, the other Pokemon got isolated to that little island, not completely, but still a little bit. They need to either go 100% one way or the other, but put some kind of way to capture these previous pokemon into the game. The Dream World is probably a good idea, but it does limit you to 100 Pokemon to be take out, at least I have heard. I could not verify this, as its not in the game yet, out side of japan anyway.

Another idea is to have islands seperated from the region that the Pokemon from older regions like, but that still makes too little since.

Kevin March 22nd, 2011 12:20 PM

Well, it helped fill up the National Dex, so yeah. I don't care that much anyway.

Arumus March 22nd, 2011 12:26 PM

I loved the idea of freshening everything up, infact they should of done it in DP (Series and games).

Half of the new Pokémon, perhaps more I thought were unimaginative and were rushed in terms of thought and design, than to just combine different types together (my opinion). But I loved the game because of the story line and the whole new graphic set up, so it doesn't bother me too much that all the old Pokémon are in the game.

Although, having them all on one side is basicly Narnia.

Dillon_68 March 22nd, 2011 12:28 PM

I would rather migrate them all than to have half a region full of old pokemon.

Croaker March 22nd, 2011 12:49 PM

It was fine. Only having the new Pokemon for the main story was brilliant but the postgame is the postgame. There is only so much you can do with 150 pokemans without spreading them too thin, especially when you have around 500 more ready to use. They really don't need to make catching them all any more difficult than it is already, or add any silly gimmicks for that. It also gave the incentive to explore the postgame caves and grass.
Also, we must consider (the numerous) first time players who don't even know the old monsters.

pkmn.master March 22nd, 2011 1:15 PM

It's always something stupid that doesn't please you all. Honestly? The fact that there were some old Pokemon bothers people? How else can you get a start on your national pokedex without the originals? Don't say dream world, because not everyone has Wi-Fi. Don't say Poke transfer, because someone might not have old games. What is the problem with old Pokemon being available after the game is completed? It made me love the game more after I saw something different after completing the game. This targets everybody's wants. Just enjoy the game and get over it.

fire woven March 22nd, 2011 1:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkmn.master (Post 6528152)
It's always something stupid that doesn't please you all. Honestly? The fact that there were some old Pokemon bothers people? How else can you get a start on your national pokedex without the originals? Don't say dream world, because not everyone has Wi-Fi. Don't say Poke transfer, because someone might not have old games. What is the problem with old Pokemon being available after the game is completed? It made me love the game more after I saw something different after completing the game. This targets everybody's wants. Just enjoy the game and get over it.

No one is complaining all that heavily. You make it sound like we are sending death threats to GF.

My point is the lack of realism in these Pokemon not being here. Part of why I loved Platinum, since it had both old and new pokemon in it. I have no true problem with it, but I like realism, even in fantasy games where children seem to be the target audience.

Palkia March 22nd, 2011 1:43 PM

They were needed seeing as the No 1. complaint for Gen III was that half the old pokemon were unobtainable. There are some pokemon which just can't be found in B/W, but only a handful. (Which you can get from the Dream World anyway.)

So, they were needed.

Oryx March 22nd, 2011 1:48 PM

I feel like they could have handled it better (maybe have the game recognize you finishing the storyline/viewing the last scene, then over the course of 10 or so DS days have the Pokemon appear more and more), but overall I think the old Pokemon add to the game as much as the new Pokemon. In the beginning, I felt much more confident with my team choices, because I only had to choose from 156 Pokemon instead of 600+. With the Unova Pokedex, I got my confidence high enough that I feel ready to take on the task of trying to catch every Pokemon, because I'm no longer intimidated by the huge number of Pokemon there are. It forces you to think of the Pokedex in smaller parts, imo, which makes it much less intimidating. Throwing you into a world of 650 species of Pokemon and implying that the goal is to catch ALL OF THEM is super overwhelming.


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