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Barrels May 3rd, 2012 3:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarefulWetPaint
Barrels there is a few passages I believe where it say's its okay to kill people if they work on the sabbath or if a male cuts their hair to short. I cant remember them exactly but I'll try and find them for you and edit this post with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph (Post 7159527)
But the Sabbath doesn't really apply anymore other than "celebrate and rest".

Besides it's not okay to kill anyone unless it's an absolute accident (which if it is only God knows the truth and he'll judge accordingly).

Cheers, fellas. After I posted I had a hazy feeling there was some pretty nasty stuff in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, but according to Frosty that no longer applies (thanks to Jesus). (Although if it doesn't apply, personally I'd just whip it outta there quicker than a snake in my boot. Really, what can we possibly learn from this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard."
Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.

Seems to me that all that can come of that is misinterpretation and cruelty...

CarefulWetPaint May 3rd, 2012 3:51 AM

Barrels you can also sell your daughter into slavery, shes worth more if shes a virgin though.

EDIT
Heres what i was looking for barrels. It has the verses named so you can check them out. Credit: The interwebz
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They
claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7
. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.
The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we
just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

All the links link back to the page I found it and have what the verses are.

Barrels May 4th, 2012 3:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarefulWetPaint (Post 7159875)
Barrels you can also sell your daughter into slavery, shes worth more if shes a virgin though.

-snipped-

All the links link back to the page I found it and have what the verses are.

This is actually good news in a weird sort of way, though! Because, hilariously, if anyone tries to quote Leviticus's 'homosexuality is an abomination' stuff at you, you can fire right back that if they've ever eaten shellfish, they too are abominable.

...But we're getting away from the main point - that, as Frosty said, those passages no longer apply to the vast majority of Christians. However. In the New Testament, I've found this:

'(26) Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. (27) In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.'

If this does still apply, it sums up one of the biggest reasons for my lack of belief in God.

EDIT: Found something else, guys...

Here's what I'd consider to be the most important parts.

Quote:

Unnatural Does Not Mean It's Wrong To Be Homosexual!

The issue is that Paul describes men as naturally preferring women. For men whose natural preference is for women, to have sex with a man would violate this, as in the case of Pederasty.
Quote:

To read Romans 1 without Romans 2 is a great error, for Paul goes on to say that we are not to judge each other! He points out the self-righteousness of those who have judged the pagans just described in Romans 1. Then he reiterates Jesus' command of the Golden Rule in his own words: "to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (2:6)".

So what's happened between Romans 1 and 2? Paul is using an "attention grabbing" technique like any good writer or speaker. In this letter, he is concerned with trying to bridge the gaps between Jewish Christians and Greek Christians who were judging each other and putting each other down.

Paul starts by talking about those "awful pagans" -- a group which both Jewish and Greek Christians felt superior to. He gives a laundry list of "sins" and the Christians are probably going "yeh, yeh, those bad people, we are better". Then, after having caught them in their judgementalism, he says "by judging, you pass judgement on yourself." By using a pagan example of sins, he could then go on to say, in effect- GOTCHA! Do not judge! He said, "God shows no partiality" (2:11).

Romans 1 is being misused today to bash homosexuality much as the Jewish and Greek Christians were bashing each other in his day. He did not write Chapter 1 to be used apart from Chapter 2. His point was not to reinforce judgementalism but to say stop judging.
Quote:

By misunderstanding Paul's argument, people unwittingly rely on tastes and customs instead of the word of God. They argue about what's dirty or clean, dispute who's pure and impure, and pit heterosexual against homosexual. Thus, they divide and splinter the church over what does not matter in Christ. In God's name they foment hatred and fuel oppression and disrupt society at large. They commit a grave injustice, the very offense that Paul's letter meant to counter.

This is a sad state of affairs. It is unworthy of followers of Jesus.
Still don't think that the inclusion of that passage is at all a good idea, but there does appear to be a possible explanation that isn't as homophobic.

Shining Raichu May 5th, 2012 4:28 AM

This was a flaw I've always thought about with religion's view on homosexuality, but I've never really had an opportunity to bring it up. It goes unquestioned (at least in circles in which people have brains) that homosexuality is perfectly natural. But even if it weren't natural, why on earth should that mean that it's not acceptable? Why is it that when it comes to religion, everything has to be "natural" to be given the holy A-O-K?

There is far too much emphasis on what's 'normal' or 'common'.

Mana May 5th, 2012 5:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7162239)
This was a flaw I've always thought about with religion's view on homosexuality, but I've never really had an opportunity to bring it up. It goes unquestioned (at least in circles in which people have brains) that homosexuality is perfectly natural. But even if it weren't natural, why on earth should that mean that it's not acceptable? Why is it that when it comes to religion, everything has to be "natural" to be given the holy A-O-K?

There is far too much emphasis on what's 'normal' or 'common'.

Also Humans are the least natural* animal considering our lifestyles - cars, planes, having children later in life, having currency, being ashamed of nudity/wearing clothing, etc.

*Their definition of natural.

Alice May 5th, 2012 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7162239)
This was a flaw I've always thought about with religion's view on homosexuality, but I've never really had an opportunity to bring it up. It goes unquestioned (at least in circles in which people have brains) that homosexuality is perfectly natural. But even if it weren't natural, why on earth should that mean that it's not acceptable? Why is it that when it comes to religion, everything has to be "natural" to be given the holy A-O-K?

There is far too much emphasis on what's 'normal' or 'common'.

I think a lot of Christians genuinely believe in the whole gay agenda thing... that we're out to destroy society and rape all of their children, etc.

My mom would talk about how "The Gays" were doing this or that all the time, as if they're some evil organization.

CarefulWetPaint May 6th, 2012 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing (Post 7162600)
I think a lot of Christians genuinely believe in the whole gay agenda thing... that we're out to destroy society and rape all of their children, etc.

My mom would talk about how "The Gays" were doing this or that all the time, as if they're some evil organization.

I think it's pretty stupid the whole christians hating gays because god would have created the gay people and would love them and isnt it a christians duty to love everything made by god and accept everything? If I'm wrong about this just say I think its just a little hypocritical if they take one passage so strong yet reject others like the ones about slavery and say they arent relevant. Its just picking pieces that they want to back up their narrow minded beliefs on sexuality.

And did you talk to your mother about that? Or did you just go along with it?

Oryx May 7th, 2012 12:08 AM

My mom thinks the gays stole the rainbow but that's all. I don't think she's actually homophobic, but when she was a property manager for an apartment complex she put up rainbow flags because she thought they were pretty and was annoyed that everyone kept talking about them as if they implied something about gay rights or something like that, lol.

What's interesting is the "other person" mentality. If you ask someone who says that marriage would be destroyed about their own marriage, they'll claim that their marriage won't be lessened, but other peoples' marriages will be destroyed. It's a claim of the 'other' - they're smart enough/their marriage is strong enough, but other people's aren't.

Shining Raichu May 7th, 2012 4:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours
What's interesting is the "other person" mentality. If you ask someone who says that marriage would be destroyed about their own marriage, they'll claim that their marriage won't be lessened, but other peoples' marriages will be destroyed. It's a claim of the 'other' - they're smart enough/their marriage is strong enough, but other people's aren't.

That is indeed interesting - and it begs a question. Why do couples think it's any of their business if other couples' marriages break down as a result of same-sex marriage? Now they are not only trying to intervene in same sex marriages that are none of their business, but they are doing it on behalf of other opposite-sex marriages. Which are also none of their business.

Everybody just needs to focus on their own marriage and leave everybody else the hell alone.

And Mr. Pope, you don't even get to have a husband marriage, so get your big bony finger off the entire concept because it has nothing to do with you.

Barrels May 7th, 2012 5:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarefulWetPaint (Post 7165100)
I think it's pretty stupid the whole christians hating gays because god would have created the gay people and would love them and isnt it a christians duty to love everything made by god and accept everything? If I'm wrong about this just say I think its just a little hypocritical if they take one passage so strong yet reject others like the ones about slavery and say they arent relevant. Its just picking pieces that they want to back up their narrow minded beliefs on sexuality.

Mmm... I think it's too harsh to generalise all Christians under an umbrella like that. I reckon the vast majority do accept gay people and it's mostly just the ones who are homophobic to begin with who use the Bible to 'back up their narrow minded beliefs on sexuality', as you say.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I have enough faith in the human race to believe that the proportion of people who actively decide to become intolerant of homosexuality because they read a passage denouncing it right underneath one encouraging the stoning of your own children is very small indeed. Most of us would take that whole chapter - if not the entire book - with rather a large pinch of salt after that, methinks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7165300)
Why do couples think it's any of their business if other couples' marriages break down as a result of same-sex marriage?

xD Why on earth would they break down? This just seems utterly ridiculous and unjustifiable to me. Surely the only marriages that might be affected are the ones where gay people have married the opposite gender (perhaps out of pressure from family) - and, painful as that would be to the spouse involved, they were kind of living a lie to begin with...

Shining Raichu May 7th, 2012 6:18 AM

Well they wouldn't break down, it is ridiculous to even think that. I figured that much went without saying though, so that's why my go-to place was "everybody needs to mind their own business" instead xD

Alice May 7th, 2012 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarefulWetPaint (Post 7165100)
I think it's pretty stupid the whole christians hating gays because god would have created the gay people and would love them and isnt it a christians duty to love everything made by god and accept everything? If I'm wrong about this just say I think its just a little hypocritical if they take one passage so strong yet reject others like the ones about slavery and say they arent relevant. Its just picking pieces that they want to back up their narrow minded beliefs on sexuality.

And did you talk to your mother about that? Or did you just go along with it?

No, you're 110% correct. Christians should love and forgive, not hate and judge. That's like the main focus of the religion.

When I came out to my mom she stopped talking about gays altogether.

CarefulWetPaint May 7th, 2012 3:33 PM

@Barrels,
I didn't mean to generalise ALL Christians, just the ones that are against gay marriage and such, I know theres plenty of them who are all for it but I was meaning to be calling out on the ones that hate gays (I was replying to Quilava's post). Im sorry I didnt write it more clearly so you could understand that it wasnt generalising them all, just the haters!

@ShiningRaichu
I have to agree with you here. Someone else's marriage whether hetero or homo is not going too effect anyone elses marriage. Thats just silly >.<. And if it does obviously the effected marriage wasnt strong enough to make it the distance anyways.

@Quilava,
So your mother hasn't talked about it at all since you came out? Did she apologise for being rude at least?

voltianqueen May 7th, 2012 5:30 PM

Hie guys :3 Been waiting for an opportunity to pop in here! My family is currently dealing with a stupid situation with the homophobic parents of my sister's girlfriend. It sucks :P Apparently my sister is a bad influence on her daughter, and the parents believe that's what's "making their daughter gay." I dunno.

(But er hi everyone. I'm an atheist as well, been one for several years! I never explicitly told anyone except my sister and cousin, but it's sort of implied... I guess. My family is pretty much Christian, though 'how' Christian each part of the family is varies. My aunts and uncles are more religious than my parents, who are pretty laid-back about everything.)

CarefulWetPaint May 7th, 2012 5:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voltianqueen (Post 7166084)
Hie guys :3 Been waiting for an opportunity to pop in here! My family is currently dealing with a stupid situation with the homophobic parents of my sister's girlfriend. It sucks :P Apparently my sister is a bad influence on her daughter, and the parents believe that's what's "making their daughter gay." I dunno.

(But er hi everyone. I'm an atheist as well, been one for several years! I never explicitly told anyone except my sister and cousin, but it's sort of implied... I guess. My family is pretty much Christian, though 'how' Christian each part of the family is varies. My aunts and uncles are more religious than my parents, who are pretty laid-back about everything.)

Welcome to the club! Feel free to jump in to the discussion at anytime.

That sounds really stupid though. Do they think shes making their daughter gay from religious reasons or are they just homophobics?You should also join the LGBTS club if you havent already.

So what do you think about some homophobics using religion as an excuse for their hate?

voltianqueen May 7th, 2012 6:20 PM

It's pretty bad.. They are religious people, the kind that think that being gay - or whatever - is basically horrible and not right. At this point I think they're in denial about the whole thing and are trying to keep their daughter and my sister separated in hopes that it'll make her stop being gay... There's a lot more detail to the situation, but I don't want to mention too much since the gf's mother has been stalking my sister's online pages and I'm connected to basically all of them >.<

But yeah, hating anything based on religion or using the religion as an excuse for it is not something I agree with at all. I think the person should take the time to look at things objectively before deciding their opinion. And even if they don't agree that something is right, I think that people should at least respect other people's feelings/opinions/decisions on the matter. I've noticed that with things like homosexuality (or what have you) and abortion, it is really not the protestors' business what other people do! It does not affect them! There's a lesbian couple living across from me...I've lived here for 10 years and didn't even know that until a few weeks ago. That's how much their gayness affected me and the rest of the neighborhood....not at all.

Shining Raichu May 7th, 2012 7:57 PM

Hey voltianqueen! Welcome! Adding you in now :)

Your little situation is interesting, because it's the other family who is homophobic, not your own. I never actually thought about it in such an abstract perspective... usually it's more immediate, "my parents are religious wingnuts who hate the gays" etc. Do you know if her parents are going to any extreme measures to keep them apart? Have you heard of any church interventions going on? I remember one of my friends came out and then the next night his parents had their pastor over for dinner to discuss it with him and try to discourage any action on his behalf.

voltianqueen May 7th, 2012 8:25 PM

The parents had her go to church counselling to ... talk about it. I don't know a whole lot about it since apparently it's hard to get information from gf, but from what I do know, they basically tell her it's not a good decision and want to come up with ways to 'reverse it' I guess. She's not allowed to have anything to do with foreign media, namely Japanese stuff, anymore, since it is supposedly a bad influence... (no pokemon ;_;) My sisters and I like anime and games and all that good stuff, so you see where it's going >.< They have also talked about switching her school next year so she may end up going to the private Catholic school in the area.

My parents have tried meeting up with her parents to try and work things out, compromise, but so far it's them who've been running this whole thing. Mom and Dad said they're at the point now where they're going to take a stand on this, especially after the creepy internet stalking. Who knows what'll happen next >__< I just want my sister to be back to normal and not worry about stuff all the time.

Shining Raichu May 7th, 2012 9:23 PM

I thought they might have - bastards. The one saving grace in situations like these is that it's always the homophobic parents who lose in the end. Because they can invoke as many Gods and preachers and mystical forces as they like, but in the end it comes down to two options: they can have a gay daughter who they love and accept anyway, or they can have their faith and a gay daughter who lives on the other end of the country and never speaks to them as they grow old and die alone.

Either way, they have a gay daughter.

CarefulWetPaint May 7th, 2012 11:34 PM

I totally agree with Andy, her parents should just accept the fact that their daughter is gay and the god(s) cant do anything to change the fact. I think trying to get their religious leaders to "reverse" it is just completely stupid and inconsiderate to the daughters feelings. And banning japanese stuff. END THEM NOW! I dont see how japanese related things can be seen as a bad influence. My god they are naive.

I hope that all ends well for your sister and her girlfriend though!

Has anyone else had an experience like this? Where religion has gotten in the way of accepting sexuality of you/a family member/partner like this?

voltianqueen May 7th, 2012 11:56 PM

Yeah, that's basically what my mom told them... She told me they said they would never accept it :( Who knows, people change, but it's awfully sad to think that they'd be willing to push their daughter away over something like this. The gf is really fighting them on it, and I feel proud in a way... She's standing up for the stuff she believes in, but in this situation I'm afraid it won't help much. I told her I'd always be there for support, but it seems like I can't or else I'll get dragged into this big mess, too..never mind that she can't contact me anyway ~__~

Hopefully the situation will get cleaned up soon, for better or worse ._.

(Feels like the banning Japanese stuff is just to put dirt on us cos we like it :P)

Shining Raichu May 9th, 2012 7:11 AM

Well we should move on now, since we're probably heading into LGBT Club territory, so here is a little article I picked up on why this particular writer thinks atheism is bad for you. I think my favourite part is this paragraph:

Quote:

As an atheist you may be able to fulfil or satisfy some of your material or physical needs, e.g. cars, house, food etc. but atheism will never be able to satisfy man’s spiritual needs. Atheists will experience feelings of emptiness, a gap or void in their lives. “Something is missing in my life.” They will resort to try to fill that gap with various things but inevitably those feelings of emptiness will return. Atheists will of course vehemently try and deny this.
My favourite part being the last sentence: "Atheists will of course vehemently deny this." The writer put that in so that she could contradict in advance anything an atheist might say in response to the article. It is the ultimate cheap shot in debating tactics, because even though what she says is utter crap, if we go and try to say that, we'll just be atheists 'vehemently denying' the "truth".

voltianqueen May 9th, 2012 12:05 PM

I hate it when people say stuff like that... I've had a friend say to me that I might think I have a great life, but without Jesus I'll never know how much better it is :|

I never really know how to respond either XD Usually it's like "Well, no, not really, but okay." It was also weird because I didn't really wanna get into a religious discussion at Chuck E Cheese..

CarefulWetPaint May 9th, 2012 3:32 PM

I hate people like that so much >:@

How does she know what atheist feel? Is she an Atheist, NO. She has no right to say they we are "empty" because we don't believe that a deity has control over our lives and we have to bend the knee to this deity all the time. Ugh this kind of stuff makes me so angry!
Saying "Atheists will of course vehemently deny this" is an extremely cheap shot. I could write an article about how religious people are stupid and then at the end say "Religious people will of course deny this".

And your friend volti, slap them across the back of the head for me for being a tool. Saying your life is better then someone elses because YOU BELIEVE A FAIRY TAIL ONE THING its just so narrowminded and ugh! Makes me angry.

Being Atheist does not make you empty and being Religious does not make you full my god, people are stupid and it makes me cry.

Esper May 10th, 2012 9:29 AM

"Religion is true inb4 atheist counter-arguments"

So we non-believers like to talk about science being the best way of learning about the universe and all that, but how many of us have a scientific background/understanding/interest? How many of us came to atheism through science compared to those of us who were confronted with religion and rejected that?

voltianqueen May 10th, 2012 1:40 PM

I basically started questioning the religion I had been (pretty lightly) taught because when I was a kid I freaking loved dinosaurs... Yeah. In my dinosaur/prehistoric books, it talked about the first organisms and early mammals and (obviously) dinosaurs..and all that.. Really, my turn from really liberal Christianity to atheism had a lot to do with me being like "lol this makes no sense." Besides that, the way my family approaches their religion is pretty inconsistent, so.

CarefulWetPaint May 10th, 2012 3:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf (Post 7169576)
"Religion is true inb4 atheist counter-arguments"

So we non-believers like to talk about science being the best way of learning about the universe and all that, but how many of us have a scientific background/understanding/interest? How many of us came to atheism through science compared to those of us who were confronted with religion and rejected that?

I do.. I have a really good scientific understanding and Im very interested in science, especially physics and chemistry.
I would say it was half half, when I was younger I wasn't atheist I was more just like "this seems kinda like my bedtime stories not a true story" and didnt really have an opinion on it but as I got older and into science and such more I was just like "None of this makes sense at all." and became full atheist.

Shining Raichu May 10th, 2012 6:04 PM

I have very little scientific knowledge or background lol. It was one of my worst subjects in high school; I was just terrible at it. I definitely came to atheism through rejection of religion, because in the end I'd rather put my trust in something that can be proven rather than something that can't. The idea of faith - believe without proof - is utterly terrifying. It opens the door to brainwashing and cults and the thought that faith is enough... that's horrific.

Esper May 11th, 2012 7:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7170132)
I have very little scientific knowledge or background lol. It was one of my worst subjects in high school; I was just terrible at it. I definitely came to atheism through rejection of religion, because in the end I'd rather put my trust in something that can be proven rather than something that can't. The idea of faith - believe without proof - is utterly terrifying. It opens the door to brainwashing and cults and the thought that faith is enough... that's horrific.

I had a moment like that when I was in high school. I wasn't raised with religion in any way so I kinda didn't even know the first thing about it for quite a while and was one of those atheists-by-default (I didn't have a science-y background or anything either). Then in high school I learned that my two closest friends (not actually that close) were Mormons and I was basically dropped into the deep end of the religion-vs.-science argument in biology class when evolution came up. If the religious types hadn't been so adamant that evolution wasn't possible I probably would have a better impression of religion in general now, but from then on it seemed like it just made people really selective in what they wanted to accept as real.

Mockingjay May 14th, 2012 5:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf (Post 7169576)
"Religion is true inb4 atheist counter-arguments"

So we non-believers like to talk about science being the best way of learning about the universe and all that, but how many of us have a scientific background/understanding/interest? How many of us came to atheism through science compared to those of us who were confronted with religion and rejected that?


I, for one, find scientific reasoning for how the universe was created (The Big Bang) to seem more logical than religion's point of views (God created the universe out of dust? ..I never really understood).

I've always been into science and everything, yeah. Even as a kid, it was one of my favorite subjects. I have a giant book titled The Atlas of the Universe. It has a bunch of galaxies in it...and people wonder why people think there's no God. The world we live in is just a speck in this vast universe..I highly doubt a God made the entire universe just to make ONE planet for his people. No.

I was raised Catholic (as I've stated in this thread already) but overtime I've felt as if it isn't ... true. I felt this way whenever I found out Santa wasn't real. I was 8 when I started my doubts..!

It's quite difficult because my family is filled with religious people. The other day I was with my mom, grandma, step-dad, sister, and cousin, and we passed in front of a Catholic church. When you pass in front of a Catholic church and you're Catholic, you're apparently supposed to "make the sign of the cross." My grandma noticed I didn't do it, and she started automatically asking me if I was Atheist. I didn't want to make a scene in front of my family, so I just said that I never said that. If I could tell my family about this, everything would be easier.. lol

Okay so I was talking to my friend in class Friday, and she said that, because of her religion, she doesn't approve of homosexuals. I was utterly shocked at this because I always thought she wasn't one to judge because of things like that..!

Alice May 14th, 2012 5:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockingjay (Post 7175688)
I, for one, find scientific reasoning for how the universe was created (The Big Bang) to seem more logical than religion's point of views (God created the universe out of dust? ..I never really understood).

God didn't create it the universe out of dust. He just created it out of his own power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockingjay (Post 7175688)
I've always been into science and everything, yeah. Even as a kid, it was one of my favorite subjects. I have a giant book titled The Atlas of the Universe. It has a bunch of galaxies in it...and people wonder why people think there's no God. The world we live in is just a speck in this vast universe..I highly doubt a God made the entire universe just to make ONE planet for his people. No.

Humans were originally meant to live forever, thus an infinite universe would be necessary to account for our infinite expansion.

Mockingjay May 14th, 2012 5:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing (Post 7175693)
God didn't create it the universe out of dust. He just created it out of his own power.


Humans were originally meant to live forever, thus an infinite universe would be necessary to account for our infinite expansion.

I don't quite remember my bible quotes or anything, so I'm not the one to talk. However, I was always told it was "dust" He made it out of or something. There's also that thing where he needed Adam's rib to make Eve..yet he created the entire universe without anything..?

Anyway, if what you're getting at is true, then why would there be uninhabitable planets? It seems like a waste of energy, mass, etc. I can understand for gravitational purposes (for other planets to be able to be in the "Goldilocks zone") but otherwise I don't see a point. Why wouldn't he supply us with the ability to zoom out of the planet with ease to other planets? Or is the Earth good enough?

Oryx May 14th, 2012 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockingjay (Post 7175705)
I don't quite remember my bible quotes or anything, so I'm not the one to talk. However, I was always told it was "dust" He made it out of or something. There's also that thing where he needed Adam's rib to make Eve..yet he created the entire universe without anything..?

Anyway, if what you're getting at is true, then why would there be uninhabitable planets? It seems like a waste of energy, mass, etc. I can understand for gravitational purposes (for other planets to be able to be in the "Goldilocks zone") but otherwise I don't see a point. Why wouldn't he supply us with the ability to zoom out of the planet with ease to other planets? Or is the Earth good enough?

Keep in mind that 90% of the Old Testament isn't meant to be taken literally. The Genesis account isn't meant to be taken as science, it's meant to be taken in parallel with things such as the Babylonian creation narrative since it was written during the Babylonian exile, and with each point a hidden meaning that shows why it was written in that way and not any other. Adam's rib wasn't 'required' to make Eve, but making her in that way was meant to prove a point. Same as how in the beginning it was just God, who created from nothing, but then he created Adam from earth. He didn't have to use earth, but it was a metaphorical point about how we are part earthly, with our bodies, and part with God, with his breath that he used to make humans. You can't look at Genesis and pick it apart literally.

I'm still agnostic, it's just hard for me as someone who's been to Catholic school for 5 years now (3 in high school, 2 in college) and has taken 3.5 years of Theology to hear people make their opinions without knowing all the facts. Even if it's not believed in, Christianity and the Bible are surprisingly interesting and complex when you get into it, from a literary standpoint.

Shining Raichu May 14th, 2012 5:51 PM

If I understand correctly, the Bible isn't necessarily always to be taken at its word. Just like any other book, it uses creative writing techniques to put across a point. So when it says that Eve was made out of Adam's rib, I'm not sure if that was meant to be taken literally (since it's well established in this universe that a God would have infinite power and is therefore capable of creating a woman from scratch, just as he created the man from scratch) or figuratively to make a point. The point in this case, I believe, would be man's dominance over woman.

EDIT: ...ninja'd damnit toujours

Mockingjay May 14th, 2012 5:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 7175719)


Keep in mind that 90% of the Old Testament isn't meant to be taken literally. The Genesis account isn't meant to be taken as science, it's meant to be taken in parallel with things such as the Babylonian creation narrative since it was written during the Babylonian exile, and with each point a hidden meaning that shows why it was written in that way and not any other. Adam's rib wasn't 'required' to make Eve, but making her in that way was meant to prove a point. Same as how in the beginning it was just God, who created from nothing, but then he created Adam from earth. He didn't have to use earth, but it was a metaphorical point about how we are part earthly, with our bodies, and part with God, with his breath that he used to make humans. You can't look at Genesis and pick it apart literally.

I'm still agnostic, it's just hard for me as someone who's been to Catholic school for 5 years now (3 in high school, 2 in college) and has taken 3.5 years of Theology to hear people make their opinions without knowing all the facts. Even if it's not believed in, Christianity and the Bible are surprisingly interesting and complex when you get into it, from a literary standpoint.

I've tried to sit down and read the Old Testament, but I just couldn't. I've never really been able to grasp a lot of what the Bible's "trying to say"..I guess some people just don't get it. *shrug*

Well, I was in Catholic schools from ages 4~9, and from 10~14, I was in after school Catholic classes. I was taught how to be a good little Catholic girl and whatnot xD

If we had a copy of the Bible in my house, I'd check out some parts. The only thing I've ever really read into was the Revelation part..although I don't quite remember it all. Also I tried to read this one part a few years ago that was basically saying "(insert name here) who was the son of (insert name here) who lived to be 924 and had 32 other children.." and I was so lost. Whoever knows what that may be, let me know. :D

Oryx May 14th, 2012 6:05 PM

I think the book you're talking about is part of the Pentateuch but I'm not sure. Numbers maybe?

Yeah I looked it up and you're thinking of Numbers. The thing about the Bible is it's a lot like other really heavy literary works; you can't just read it and 'understand'. You have to study it, and probably with a teacher or a scholar to even begin to scratch the surface. I've learned more in this past semester in college in Theology than I did in all 3 of my high school years, and more than the year and a half of RCIA I took to become Catholic way back in high school.

If you do read a book from the Bible though, I would recommend Exodus. It's actually a really interesting story. Job is interesting too, but you have to keep in mind reading it that it's written as a fairy tale, with the Hebrew equivalent of "Once upon a time" starting it, so you don't feel like God is punishing Job unfairly or something like that haha.

CarefulWetPaint May 14th, 2012 7:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 7175752)

If you do read a book from the Bible though, I would recommend Exodus. It's actually a really interesting story. Job is interesting too, but you have to keep in mind reading it that it's written as a fairy tale, with the Hebrew equivalent of "Once upon a time" starting it, so you don't feel like God is punishing Job unfairly or something like that haha.

I don't think I'm reading this correctly but everytime I look at it, it seems to me that you are saying that part of the Bible is just a made up story (Fairy Tale) and if you think of it that way anything in it is no more relevant to the creation of everything then saying Harry Potters war with Voldemort actually happened and wasnt just a made up story.

Eh if that didnt make any sense what I'm trying to say, how can we possible take something as god's word and the truth if you admit that a part of it is just a fairy tale?

Oryx May 14th, 2012 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarefulWetPaint (Post 7175839)
I don't think I'm reading this correctly but everytime I look at it, it seems to me that you are saying that part of the Bible is just a made up story (Fairy Tale) and if you think of it that way anything in it is no more relevant to the creation of everything then saying Harry Potters war with Voldemort actually happened and wasnt just a made up story.

Eh if that didnt make any sense what I'm trying to say, how can we possible take something as god's word and the truth if you admit that a part of it is just a fairy tale?

It's like a fable, in which a moral is conveyed. In Job, Satan tells God that Job is only pious because Job is happy, healthy, has a wife and kids and a lot of money. In reply, God allows Satan to take everything from Job to test what Satan claimed. In that time, it was believed that if you were afflicted with tragedy, it was basically a result of your own personal sin and not random happenstance as happens to everyone. His wife tells him to curse God, his friends accuse him of sinning, his family dies, his fortune is lost, but he still remains pious and praises God and claims he did not sin terribly to deserve what happened to him. At this point, God comes to speak to him and his friends and rebukes the friends for their accusations to Job, and puts him in good health with twice what he had before.

The point of the book is to refute the idea of the time that if something bad happens to you, it's a direct result of your own sin. It's also meant to encourage people to suffer without blaming or cursing God, as if you suffer and still praise God then you will be rewarded in the end.

Saying that you can't take it as important because it's not a true fact is like disregarding every parable Jesus ever said as unimportant because they didn't actually happen.

Edit: the reason I used the term "fairy tale" is because of the phrases used to open it and end it, which would have signified to people back then that the story wasn't real, but something that we don't see nowadays because of translation and changes in colloquial language. The closest approximation is the idea of the beginning of a fairy tale, which has a formula that everyone knows.

Mana May 15th, 2012 2:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf (Post 7169576)
"Religion is true inb4 atheist counter-arguments"

So we non-believers like to talk about science being the best way of learning about the universe and all that, but how many of us have a scientific background/understanding/interest? How many of us came to atheism through science compared to those of us who were confronted with religion and rejected that?

I r scientist.

Technically a Bachelor of Science in a few months :) so that best explains my route. I went to a Church of England school, we weren't taught the bible but it was often referenced - and we made a prayer before each assembly. Well I say we, I didn't like it so just sat and watched, even as a 7 year old.

God was just never the option for me.

------------

As to all the Bible shizz, from what I know about the Bible I would say it's more a collection of horror stories than fables. All are simply to demonstrate the power that God has and/or to say that if you sin then you will go to hell. It's just a scare tactic to gain power over people.

To me, God just comes across as a bully.

Oryx May 15th, 2012 6:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwiftSign (Post 7176200)

As to all the Bible shizz, from what I know about the Bible I would say it's more a collection of horror stories than fables. All are simply to demonstrate the power that God has and/or to say that if you sin then you will go to hell. It's just a scare tactic to gain power over people.

To me, God just comes across as a bully.

You don't know much about it at all then.

Shining Raichu May 15th, 2012 6:53 AM

I wouldn't be so quick to write that off as a lack of knowledge. Just off the top of my head I can think of one story - Sodom and Gomorrah - where God came off looking like a bit of a bully. Considering two cities were consumed in fire and brimstone, I think that's a horror story James Cameron could do something with.

Mana May 15th, 2012 8:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 7176479)


You don't know much about it at all then.

The bible has multiple meanings to many different people, to say I'm wrong is just ignorant. My opinion is perfectly valid - considering the Church used the bible/God as a bullying tactic through the Dark Ages, etc.

If there was a perfect answer to what each section of the bible meant then the Christian religion as a whole wouldn't be so flawed.

Esper May 15th, 2012 10:27 AM

I subscribe to the view that all literary texts are open to the audience's interpretation, but that there are better and worse arguments, deeper and shallower understandings based on how much one reads and thinks about the text. Certainly the person who wrote (or wrote down) one of these Jesus fables probably had their own ideas, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that they differed from the person they heard the story from, and certainly whoever first came up with the story could not control how people read it.

I haven't really read the bible, but when I first transferred to university I met with a professor who taught some literature (my focus) and also some theological/religious stuff and as an intro to the kinds of assignments we'd be doing he had us read a biblical fable and try to find out what we might be able to tease from the text. Can't remember what it was, but it involved an a couple of people and some mundane kind of exchange or argument (lol, so specific) and the half dozen of us students tried to "find" the "moral" of the story and then after listening to us the professor suggested we think about it with one of the characters as god and the exchange as a parallel to a person's relationship with god, etc. etc. THE POINT OF MY STORY is that you can look at the surface of something and it can look like a bully, but if you look more at it you can see something different. OF COURSE in another class I took the teacher read us something from an old Buddhist guy in ye olde China who said "When I got here all I saw was a mountain. After 20 years studying I saw there was no mountain. After another 20 years I saw there was a mountain again." Or, in other words (or at least my interpretation), don't get all bent out of shape trying to find "the truth" or things.

Whoa. What did I just write?

Blue Nocturne May 15th, 2012 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours
You don't know much about it at all then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwiftSign (Post 7176624)


The bible has multiple meanings to many different people, to say I'm wrong is just ignorant. My opinion is perfectly valid - considering the Church used the bible/God as a bullying tactic through the Dark Ages, etc.

If there was a perfect answer to what each section of the bible meant then the Christian religion as a whole wouldn't be so flawed.

Neither would there be literally hundreds of different denominations of Christianity which exist because they can't agree on what The Bible actually says. Catholicism, Protestants, Baptist, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Anglican, Pentacostal, Latter Day Saints, Methodist, Jehovah's Witness, Unitarians. The list of one true interpretations goes on and on. All of these different denominations of the Christian faith exist largely because they have interpreted The Bible differently.

Some believe The Bible is a historically accurate depiction of events, others believe it's a collection of stories with moral guidance. Some believe the Virgin Mary should be worshipped., others consider this idolatry. Some believe hell is a place of fiery torture, others describe it as being nothing.

To say someone doesn't know much about The Bible and suggest that they're objectively wrong when there are so many interpretations is ridiculous. If Swift has missed the mark, there has to be a mark to miss, but Christianity seems to be all over the maps.

Oryx May 16th, 2012 8:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7176496)
I wouldn't be so quick to write that off as a lack of knowledge. Just off the top of my head I can think of one story - Sodom and Gomorrah - where God came off looking like a bit of a bully. Considering two cities were consumed in fire and brimstone, I think that's a horror story James Cameron could do something with.

Read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. In the story God specifically says that if there is one good person in the city, he won't destroy it. Note that no one is sinless, this is still Old Testament; he didn't want a sinless person. Just not the terrible people that populated Sodom and Gomorrah. That's how Lot was saved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwiftSign (Post 7176624)


The bible has multiple meanings to many different people, to say I'm wrong is just ignorant. My opinion is perfectly valid - considering the Church used the bible/God as a bullying tactic through the Dark Ages, etc.

If there was a perfect answer to what each section of the bible meant then the Christian religion as a whole wouldn't be so flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Nocturne (Post 7176838)



Neither would there be literally hundreds of different denominations of Christianity which exist because they can't agree on what The Bible actually says. Catholicism, Protestants, Baptist, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Anglican, Pentacostal, Latter Day Saints, Methodist, Jehovah's Witness, Unitarians. The list of one true interpretations goes on and on. All of these different denominations of the Christian faith exist largely because they have interpreted The Bible differently.

Some believe The Bible is a historically accurate depiction of events, others believe it's a collection of stories with moral guidance. Some believe the Virgin Mary should be worshipped., others consider this idolatry. Some believe hell is a place of fiery torture, others describe it as being nothing.

To say someone doesn't know much about The Bible and suggest that they're objectively wrong when there are so many interpretations is ridiculous. If Swift has missed the mark, there has to be a mark to miss, but Christianity seems to be all over the maps.

@both of you: the original quote was "All are simply to demonstrate the power that God has and/or to say that if you sin then you will go to hell. It's just a scare tactic to gain power over people." Note the "all". That is objectively wrong. It just is. If you think every story in the Bible is meant as a scare tactic then you're ignorant of the Bible. It's as simple as that. It has nothing to do with interpretation. Can you possibly say that this is a scare tactic in any interpretation?

Quote:

Many, Lord, are asking, “Who will bring us prosperity?”
Let the light of your face shine on us.
Fill my heart with joy
when their grain and new wine abound.
In peace I will lie down and sleep,
for you alone, Lord,
make me dwell in safety.
This is even in the Old Testament. You can claim many verses are harsh or uncalled for or whatever (God tried to kill Moses, lol), but not the entire thing. That's what's ignorant.

FrostPheonix May 17th, 2012 2:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockingjay (Post 7175705)
I don't quite remember my bible quotes or anything, so I'm not the one to talk. However, I was always told it was "dust" He made it out of or something.

I just wanted to point out, Adam was made out of dust. The universe was made out of... nothing, really. Probably out of God's power, as stated somewhere above.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockingjay (Post 7175741)
I've tried to sit down and read the Old Testament, but I just couldn't. I've never really been able to grasp a lot of what the Bible's "trying to say"..I guess some people just don't get it. *shrug*

Well, I was in Catholic schools from ages 4~9, and from 10~14, I was in after school Catholic classes. I was taught how to be a good little Catholic girl and whatnot xD

If we had a copy of the Bible in my house, I'd check out some parts. The only thing I've ever really read into was the Revelation part..although I don't quite remember it all. Also I tried to read this one part a few years ago that was basically saying "(insert name here) who was the son of (insert name here) who lived to be 924 and had 32 other children.." and I was so lost. Whoever knows what that may be, let me know. :D


Also, revelation is the last book of the bible... its the future, really, and is kind of hard to understand. Its interesting, but extremely hard to understand. Also, the Bible also has genealogies... which is probably what you flipped to ^^ that could actually be anywhere, Genesis, Numbers, even new testament (I think Joseph's genealogy was there in the new testament?) so I think that's what you stumbled upon.
Also, if you actually want to read it there are online Bibles available, in case you want to read it.

Barrels May 17th, 2012 9:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 7177976)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu
I wouldn't be so quick to write that off as a lack of knowledge. Just off the top of my head I can think of one story - Sodom and Gomorrah - where God came off looking like a bit of a bully. Considering two cities were consumed in fire and brimstone, I think that's a horror story James Cameron could do something with.


Read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. In the story God specifically says that if there is one good person in the city, he won't destroy it. Note that no one is sinless, this is still Old Testament; he didn't want a sinless person. Just not the terrible people that populated Sodom and Gomorrah. That's how Lot was saved.

Excuse my ignorance, but... I don't really understand how no one in the cities can be good. I mean, they're cities, aren't they? And in cities, you have families, and in families you have babies. I think it'd be reasonable to assume a fairly typical newborn population in both, and those children wouldn't be bad or good - they'd be too young to have any concept of altruism. Seems a little unfair and extreme to me to kill babies just because their parents are 'terrible' people (and this is all without bringing up the problem of murder being seen as any kind of solution in the first place).

Quote:

God specifically says that if there is one good person in the city, he won't destroy it.
I thought I remembered it being ten... hang on, let me check that.

Yeah, it is. Ten people that have to be righteous in order for the city to be spared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix (Post 7179085)
Also, revelation is the last book of the bible... its the future, really, and is kind of hard to understand. Its interesting, but extremely hard to understand.

Revelations is brilliant. :D I highly recommend it for anyone stuck in a hotel room with nothing to do one night - even if you're not religious, you've gotta appreciate its sheer scale.

Shining Raichu May 19th, 2012 4:18 PM

It's time for the Red Shield Appeal, which means The Salvation Army is coming door-to-door asking for money. Mum saw them walking down the street and went to go get her purse and I said "Don't you give them anything." She stopped in her tracks and sat back down. The doorbell rang and nobody answered.

I feel very good about myself right now :). Now that money can go to a charity that doesn't discriminate who they help because of their religious views.

FrostPheonix May 22nd, 2012 1:19 AM

Hooray, exams are finally over!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7182641)
It's time for the Red Shield Appeal, which means The Salvation Army is coming door-to-door asking for money. Mum saw them walking down the street and went to go get her purse and I said "Don't you give them anything." She stopped in her tracks and sat back down. The doorbell rang and nobody answered.

I feel very good about myself right now :). Now that money can go to a charity that doesn't discriminate who they help because of their religious views.

...how is the salvation army discriminating on who they help? I know they don't accept people into the army if they don't believe in what they believe, but... as far as I know, they don't discriminate on who they help.

Shining Raichu May 22nd, 2012 7:07 AM

Here's an article which outlines the Salvation Army's views on LGBT rights which poses a very interesting question on whether or not the good they do is enough to excuse the evil.

Here is one instance of them actually refusing to help a gay couple unless they agreed to break up.

You can Google "Salvation Army gay" and get millions of results. They're notorious for this, and with an organisation such as the Salvation Army, there really is no doubt that it stems from the religious aspect.

Blue Nocturne May 22nd, 2012 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7186293)
Here's an article which outlines the Salvation Army's views on LGBT rights which poses a very interesting question on whether or not the good they do is enough to excuse the evil.

Here is one instance of them actually refusing to help a gay couple unless they agreed to break up.

You can Google "Salvation Army gay" and get millions of results. They're notorious for this, and with an organisation such as the Salvation Army, there really is no doubt that it stems from the religious aspect.

I recall seeing something about the Salvation Army threatening to close some of their soup kitchens in New York if they passed the law enabling Gay Marriage...

No, I don't think the good that they do even remotely excuses what they have done. I don't think people would be so forgiving of a charity having an official opposition to black people or those of another religion, but that's by the by. I boycotted the Salvation Army a long time ago, and I've tried to make others are of what they do. A charity should never abuse it's status (to the point of endangering the well being of the people they supposedly protect) for the purpose of making other people bow down to their religious opinion. I find that thoroughly repulsive, and it negates any good that they do.

FrostPheonix May 23rd, 2012 5:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Nocturne (Post 7186476)


I recall seeing something about the Salvation Army threatening to close some of their soup kitchens in New York if they passed the law enabling Gay Marriage...

That was some catholic church or something in Washington, was there in one of the links.

Quote:

Likewise, there is no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for reason of his or her sexual orientation. The Salvation Army opposes any such abuse.
That was from the Salvation Army Website. The thing is, every organization has those... people who do things like this. Idiots who don't really do what the organization is supposed to do. And, really, only one person is needed to do something like that to give the whole organization a bad name. I scroll down and see lots of people leave comments where the salvation army hasn't discriminated, and actually helped people from all backgrounds and beliefs. I did more research, and found the original article from Browning:
Salvation Army hears dissent over Gay views
That guys who tried make him break up probably wasn't the best representative of the army. Seriously? Try make someone go to church for it? That's not how you're supposed to live out Christianity :(. You shouldn't help just help people who believe in what you believe. But I couldn't find more such cases from reliable websites though.

And, about their beliefs throwing up a question whether the good they do excuses their 'evil'... what's the problem in bringing their beliefs into the open? As said above, most of the army doesn't discriminate based on it; they actually advocate against discrimination (at least, for homosexuality). So, other than believing something you believe to be morally wrong, where's the 'evil'? 'Cuz really, you're doing the same thing in their opinion; believing in something they believe morally wrong.

Sorry if that was a bit over blown :/ I realized my troubles weren't over with my exams :(. Seems I have projects left.

CarefulWetPaint May 26th, 2012 3:24 PM

Personally I don't feel that it's fair if you donate to religious based charities, because I feel as if they'll be bias towards people who have the same faith as them which I don't think is fair. I'm not going to deny they do good things for people I just dont think its fair that they choose who they want to help.
The refusion of help to the gay couple just shows that because of their religious beliefs, even though they are a charity, they'll deny help to people who go against what the believe! This is why I wouldnt and dont really donate to religious based charities like the salvo's. I still think donating to charities is a good thing but I'd prefer to give my money to Westpac Surf Rescue Helicopters because they'll save anyone regardless of what they believe in or who they are.

Shining Raichu May 26th, 2012 5:22 PM

OMG I've had this open in a tab for like three days. I totally forgot to finish this reply lmao.

Before:
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix (Post 7153683)
Gay-rights activist rips Bible, mocks teens fleeing room

What do you guys think? I was speechless... prior to this I supported the 'It gets better foundation' and was thinking of doing something to help it, now I'm not so sure. What was he thinking?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPhoenix
As to him not being the whole organisation and all, I think that if you are the founder, you're a representative of it. Actions you make will affect how your organization is being seen, and one should consider that in public speeches. At least that's how I see it.

After:
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPhoenix
That was from the Salvation Army Website. The thing is, every organization has those... people who do things like this. Idiots who don't really do what the organization is supposed to do. And, really, only one person is needed to do something like that to give the whole organization a bad name. I scroll down and see lots of people leave comments where the salvation army hasn't discriminated, and actually helped people from all backgrounds and beliefs. I did more research, and found the original article from Browning:
Salvation Army hears dissent over Gay views
That guys who tried make him break up probably wasn't the best representative of the army. Seriously? Try make someone go to church for it? That's not how you're supposed to live out Christianity :(. You shouldn't help just help people who believe in what you believe. But I couldn't find more such cases from reliable websites though.

Just pointing out your change in perspective :P

You can support The Salvation Army if you like, that's up to you. But this went all over the Internet and as far as I know, they haven't apologised or even acknowledged the situation other than to say "they should have been helped" and to give some weak excuse about upheaval in the shelter's bedding system - which has been happening in 'recent years', while the incident in question was a decade ago. Until I hear from them in no uncertain terms that this was just an unruly volunteer and not a symptom of a bigger problem within the organisation, they're not getting a dime from me. Because given their official writings on the matter, from the article you linked,

Quote:

“The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.
I'm inclined to believe it's the latter. I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because what happened to Mr. Browning seems to be supported by the literature of The Salvation Army itself.

Alice May 26th, 2012 5:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7192147)
OMG I've had this open in a tab for like three days. I totally forgot to finish this reply lmao.

Before:




After:


Just pointing out your change in perspective :P

Well, the first case was of the founder of the organization, and the second was just some random employee. Not really the same thing.

Quote:

Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.
Well, at least they're acknowledging that it's not a choice. lol

Esper May 27th, 2012 1:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing (Post 7192185)
Well, at least they're acknowledging that it's not a choice. lol

Call me cynical, but I think as long as people can find a way to discriminate against you they won't mind granting you a few things for the sake of argument.

"Oh, sure, sexual orientation is not a choice, but scripture says that you can only marry an opposite-sex partner so..."

The logic next step (not a choice -> shouldn't discriminate because of it) isn't something they'll take so it's not like they're meeting you halfway or really conceding anything.

Shining Raichu May 27th, 2012 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing
Well, the first case was of the founder of the organization, and the second was just some random employee. Not really the same thing.

You're absolutely right, it's not the same thing. What Dan Savage did was completely unrelated to the It Gets Better Foundation, whereas what this random employee did he did as an employee of The Salvation Army. He didn't refuse to help these people who came to his personal front door and begged for food, he turned them away from the organisation which was created to help people in need.

FrostPheonix May 29th, 2012 1:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7192147)
OMG I've had this open in a tab for like three days. I totally forgot to finish this reply lmao.

I kno how you feel... its horrible, isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7192147)
Before:
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix
Gay-rights activist rips Bible, mocks teens fleeing room

What do you guys think? I was speechless... prior to this I supported the 'It gets better foundation' and was thinking of doing something to help it, now I'm not so sure. What was he thinking?

-.- I did say later on that I was ranting there. I didn't really mean that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7192147)
After:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPhoenix
As to him not being the whole organisation and all, I think that if you are the founder, you're a representative of it. Actions you make will affect how your organization is being seen, and one should consider that in public speeches. At least that's how I see it.

Just bolded what I want to say ^^ I agree, if you are a member you still are a rep of the company, like you might be of your school or something, but being the leader or founder carries a special significance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7193737)
You're absolutely right, it's not the same thing. What Dan Savage did was completely unrelated to the It Gets Better Foundation, whereas what this random employee did he did as an employee of The Salvation Army. He didn't refuse to help these people who came to his personal front door and begged for food, he turned them away from the organisation which was created to help people in need.

Umm, I think having a speech on homosexuality and christians does have to do with the "It Gets Better" Foundation, which has to do with homosexuals getting bullied...?

I realize that the guys turned away people for their beliefs, but I think what I said before kind of speaks out my thoughts on that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix (Post 7187542)
That guy who tried make him break up probably wasn't the best representative of the army. Seriously? Try make someone go to church for it? That's not how you're supposed to live out Christianity :(. You shouldn't help just help people who believe in what you believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7192147)
You can support The Salvation Army if you like, that's up to you. But this went all over the Internet and as far as I know, they haven't apologised or even acknowledged the situation other than to say "they should have been helped" and to give some weak excuse about upheaval in the shelter's bedding system - which has been happening in 'recent years', while the incident in question was a decade ago. Until I hear from them in no uncertain terms that this was just an unruly volunteer and not a symptom of a bigger problem within the organisation, they're not getting a dime from me. Because given their official writings on the matter, from the article you linked,

I'm inclined to believe it's the latter. I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because what happened to Mr. Browning seems to be supported by the literature of The Salvation Army itself.

Didn't know that they didn't say anything except lame excuses :/. And did you ignore what I actually linked from their site?

Quote:

Likewise, there is no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for reason of his or her sexual orientation. The Salvation Army opposes any such abuse.
It actually opposes what happened to Mr. Browning. And I guess it's your choice if you donate or not, I just wanted to clarify that, officially, they're against any discrimination of the sort.

Also, did you guys hear? Doomsday 2012 no longer will happen ^^ I saw the thread somewhere in the other chat forum. Funny, don't you think? I kinda feel sorry for those poor sods who invested all their money into bunkers and stuff in preparation for the end...

Esper May 29th, 2012 9:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix (Post 7195567)
Just bolded what I want to say ^^ I agree, if you are a member you still are a rep of the company, like you might be of your school or something, but being the leader or founder carries a special significance.

I think it depends. If you have final say on every It Gets Better video then, yes, you as a person are more representative since everything it being filtered through you before people see it, but since IGB is so widespread and independent it's founders are much less representative, I think.

Regarding 2012 end-of-the-world stuff, I don't think anyone actually built bunkers and things like that for the "end of the Mayan calendar" doomsday, but I know that people did sell all the possessions, etc. because of that one American radio pastor who said the world would end sometime last year. Poor saps. Still, it was fun for a while. The guy was based in Oakland, California and I was actually in Oakland the day it was supposed to happen and there was actually an earthquake (a small one) one hour after the time he said the world would end.

FrostPheonix May 31st, 2012 3:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf (Post 7196040)
Regarding 2012 end-of-the-world stuff, I don't think anyone actually built bunkers and things like that for the "end of the Mayan calendar" doomsday, but I know that people did sell all the possessions, etc. because of that one American radio pastor who said the world would end sometime last year. Poor saps. Still, it was fun for a while. The guy was based in Oakland, California and I was actually in Oakland the day it was supposed to happen and there was actually an earthquake (a small one) one hour after the time he said the world would end.

I did hear about this guy who turned a Silo into a survival bunker and rich sods were buying places in it. It was on the news (MSN, so I guess you have to take it with a pinch of salt), but the guy was saying he made it completely self sufficient and all and that it had its own defense systems when mobs try raid it. Its for him and people like him that I feel sorry...

Shining Raichu June 10th, 2012 5:08 AM

Atheism is going to win out by 2038, guys - The Huffington Post says so.

Esper June 11th, 2012 7:11 AM

The Huffington Post likes a good, attention-grabbing headline like that.

"The basic idea is that as people become more affluent, they are less worried about lacking for basic necessities, or dying early from violence or disease. In other words they are secure in their own existence. They do not feel the need to appeal to supernatural entities to calm their fears and insecurities."

We better make sure we stay affluent! But I do see religion waning, and I'm 50/50 hopeful that we'll get to a place where religion doesn't have the strength to influence the rest of society. I can also see religious types getting more radical though.

Epitaph93 June 18th, 2012 11:03 PM

I've been an atheist for about 7 years, since I was 12. I'm a supporter of same sex rights, even though I'm straight. I grew up in a small christian town in Texas where I'm surrounded by the biggest bigots of the south.

SIGN ME UP!

Shining Raichu June 20th, 2012 5:51 AM

Welcome Epitaph93! Haha I love your little introduction, that was very well-put.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf
I'm 50/50 hopeful that we'll get to a place where religion doesn't have the strength to influence the rest of society.

Only 50/50 hopeful? I'm incredibly hopeful! It seems to me that there is some sort of linear progression going on away from religion and at the same time, towards equality. That's not to say that religion is the exclusive roadblock to equality, but it is certainly a main opponent, judging by the current events in Australia where this week we are seeing Parliament debate same-sex marriage, and it is the religious leaders only who are putting up resistance. They are handing out propaganda at church services, it's disgusting to watch.

They're executing their pull over society, but it's weaker than it was even twenty years ago. I can't see it shifting back the other way.

CarefulWetPaint June 20th, 2012 3:21 PM

Welcome!

I agree with you Andy, religion is definitely starting to lose its once strong grip on society rather quickly now with more people going against what they say because of how biased it is (imo). I think as people are becoming more open about their sexuality and people are being more accepting the narrow minded views of christians will be disregarded by more people as well, again weakening the grip on society. I think it'll lead to more equality in the least with same sex marriages being accepted sooner rather than later.

Shining Raichu June 23rd, 2012 6:53 AM

I hate to revisit an old topic, but

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPhoenix
That guy who tried make him break up probably wasn't the best representative of the army. Seriously? Try make someone go to church for it? That's not how you're supposed to live out Christianity :(. You shouldn't help just help people who believe in what you believe.

Do you still believe that was just one bad employee and not representative of the army?

^ That line is a link. Sometimes depending on what style you use it's hard to tell lol

Skillah June 23rd, 2012 9:11 AM

Count me in on this club/thread ^_^

My mother was never too religious. But she is a Pagan. So never said "HERE'S A BIBLE, WORSHIP JEEEESUSSSSS." Or tried to get me to be a Pagan. I had the freedom to choose whatever religion I wanted.

For awhile, I was agnostic, because I just didn't know what to believe. But by now, Religion has become a joke for me. I tell all my friends that I worship the "Nyan Cat." Because they think it's stupid to believe in something that's "Not real." LOL.

I've personally seen no reason to believe in a higher power that doesn't support Homosexual love/Homosexuals in general. God's a *****.

Alice June 27th, 2012 8:41 PM

God does support/love homosexuals, it's his followers that don't. Certainly makes it hard to not question its legitimacy though.

Shining Raichu July 3rd, 2012 5:37 PM

Welcome coolalex144!

The problem is though, that until God reveals himself in a thunder cloud and says "I love everybody, judge not ye mere mortals" or whatever he'd say, his followers are all we have to go by. And because there are so many of them with so many different views, they're incredibly inconsistent. What God loves and hates, who God is, all of that varies depending on who you talk to.

If all the Christians in the world could get together in a giant room and just work out a consistent story to come up with, maybe the whole thing would be more plausible and religion itself wouldn't seem so flimsy.

CarefulWetPaint July 4th, 2012 2:57 AM

I totally agree with Andy, everything seems to contradict.
"Love everyone, hate these people."
"Everyones equal, no gay marriage." etc etc.
I think all the groups of Christianity really needs to get together and work out everything properly. That way they'll all over the board either be with things or against things other then different opinions everywhere!
tl;dr or didnt make sense:
Basically God's followers are God's world and represent his view on the world until he comes and talks to us personally.

Esper July 5th, 2012 8:34 AM

I would be more than a little scared if all Christians suddenly agreed on everything. And aren't religious texts supposedly how gods get represented here on planet Earth? Not that they are necessarily better than followers since there are lots of disagreeable bits on a lot of texts and with all the translations, additions, and omissions over the centuries it's hard to know what would have been there originally.

And now, a question: would you date someone who was very religious? (Like, not Jesus Camp religious, but goes to services every week, etc.) Imagine they're someone you got on with really well before answering.

(And if you're religious, would you date someone very atheist?)

Alice July 5th, 2012 9:28 AM

My mom told me never to marry someone who isn't a Christian, using her relationship with my dad as an example of why I shouldn't. At the time, I took it to heart, but I wouldn't really care one way or the other now. Dating a Christian would probably make me go to church and stuff again, and dating an atheist would probably do the opposite.

Remind me to never write long posts from my phone again. lol

Shining Raichu July 5th, 2012 5:30 PM

Would I date someone with a religion? Absolutely. Would I date somebody very religious? Not a chance in Hell.

I just think it's a recipe for disaster. Religion is a very... contentious issue, and I can't imagine being in an intimate relationship (or to extrapolate, sharing my life) with somebody who disagreed so wholeheartedly on it. I'd like to think we'd both be mature enough not to let it get in the way of our relationship, but I know that's an unrealistic expectation, because there are so many opportunities for it to cause trouble.

The thing about religion, when you're that religious, is that it affects a good chunk of your daily life. There are restrictions on life that accompany it and I wouldn't be comfortable feeling the need to support and facilitate those restrictions and have them impact on my life when I don't agree with them. Then there's the more simple things like what we do on Easter and Christmas, whether we say grace at the table... it would just eat at me. I couldn't do it.

Not to mention also that if somebody were both homosexual and extremely religious, then that person has the potential to be severely messed up and I'm not sure I have it in me to maintain that kind of personality lol.

CarefulWetPaint July 5th, 2012 6:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7240730)
Would I date someone with a religion? Absolutely. Would I date somebody very religious? Not a chance in Hell.

I couldnt think of a better way to say it myself. If someone was super religious and I was with them it would just cause conflict because I'd disagree with their faith and they would probably talk about it regularly/ have regular religious activities that they would want me to go too. This would just be way to hard for me to handle and I doubt many people would be able to handle a relationship like that..

Esper July 17th, 2012 11:46 AM

Here is a tidbit of news.

A high school teacher has bragged in written form about how a student atheist group was blocked from forming at his school, but one of the students there has spread this across the internet and and fired back at how all of this has crossed legal lines and generally shone a bright light on the teacher and school.

It's clearer if you just read about it.

HarrisonH July 20th, 2012 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf (Post 7258133)
Here is a tidbit of news.

A high school teacher has bragged in written form about how a student atheist group was blocked from forming at his school, but one of the students there has spread this across the internet and and fired back at how all of this has crossed legal lines and generally shone a bright light on the teacher and school.

It's clearer if you just read about it.

Just to clear up a few things: The teacher wrote the letter to JT (who is the high school organizer for the Secular Student Alliance bragging about stopping the formation of the group. JT, being as awesome as he is, worked out where the school is located and who the teacher is, and went on to tell the school that they're pretty much asking for a lawsuit, as well as completely dismantling everything the teacher wrote in this letter.


Also holy crap, it's been a while since I've been here. Hello everyone!

Shining Raichu July 21st, 2012 7:40 AM

Welcome back Harrison, I remember you!

Man, I've been so distracted these last few days. I've been working and going out a ton (BATMANNNN) and when I'm not working I'm here and people are pulling me every which way... which has led to me having Scarf's post open in a tab for like three or four days and never getting around to actually replying to it lol.

I may have fallen in love with JT. That teacher is a serious dick and the problem is that he's most likely just one symptom of a larger problem. Educators need to be objective and not let their own feelings cloud their judgment. If they can't do that, they need to go work at Dairy Shack... which is where this teacher will most likely end up if JT gets his way :P

My favourite part of the whole article was where he said that if the school keeps jerking him around he'll release the email address and count on us (his lovelies... d'awww) to take care of them for him. I really love that. It's like.. FLY MY PRETTIES, FLY!

Ooka July 21st, 2012 7:56 AM

Athiest here. :D

My parents are big into religion. I went to church while growing up until I really took the time to think about why. No government control for meh kthnx.

Shining Raichu July 22nd, 2012 7:26 AM

Wonderful, Ooka! I think my favourite kind of atheists are the ones whose parents are uber-religious, because they're always the ones with the best stories :P.

Please do tell if you have any!

And welcome :D

Snowdrop July 25th, 2012 2:00 PM

I'd love to join this! :D I'm a very strong agnostic atheist, have been for a long while now. So sign me up :D

I'll only fill out one of the things for now since I'm feeling a wee lazy.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Same-Sex Marriage:Absopositively! For the exact same reason most other people do xD
Abortion: 100% in favor of legal abortion 100% of the time! Now that one's too controversial for my liking, I'd rather not go into detail why...
Death Penalty: Hm... neutral I guess. I think it's a little bit wasteful. I'm going to sound like a monster but I think those who would be sentenced to the death penalty should be used for medical testing or some other kinds of testing, or used for hard labor. xP

Mana July 25th, 2012 2:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowdrop (Post 7270516)
I'd love to join this! :D I'm a very strong agnostic atheist, have been for a long while now. So sign me up :D

I'll only fill out one of the things for now since I'm feeling a wee lazy.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Same-Sex Marriage:Absopositively! For the exact same reason most other people do xD
Abortion: 100% in favor of legal abortion 100% of the time! Now that one's too controversial for my liking, I'd rather not go into detail why...
Death Penalty: Hm... neutral I guess. I think it's a little bit wasteful. I'm going to sound like a monster but I think those who would be sentenced to the death penalty should be used for medical testing or some other kinds of testing, or used for hard labor. xP

SKITTY. PINK. SKITTYYYY

Welcome to the Atheist Alliance Snowdrop :3 (Ooka too!).

We need a new discussion point, but (in the UK at least) there hasn't really been much atheist/religion news... considering everything seems to be about the Olympics.

How about:

In school Religion/Religious Education/whatever lessons - what religions did you learn about? Would you say the teacher taught them as 'fact' or 'myth'?

I'm pretty sure the only Religions I learnt about in RE lessons were Christianity and Islam - normally ending the term in a comparison of the two. Most of the teachers were not religious and so I feel we got a very even outlook, however the curriculum could do with a bit of diversity.

I do remember one time we covered creation in religion, going through each creation story. A science teacher even came in to give the science theory of creation. Which is pretty good :3.

Snowdrop July 25th, 2012 2:20 PM

Pink and Skitty, two of my favorite things :D

Hm... I was never taught anything religious in school. The only thing I can relate to that is my science teacher being a devout Christian. When she taught us evolution she simply said she was required by the state to teach it but believed none of it. But we were never presented any of the Christian ideologies, thank goodness :P


EDIT: Also nice Calcifer avie xD

Algo Fonix July 25th, 2012 6:24 PM

I'll join, yo.

So, I'm not actually and Atheist... but also not religious.

I dunno if I'll explain myself properly, but until the age of 12 my family was the 'go to church every sunday and pray about everything' type family. I was scared to death that I was gonna go to Hell because unclean thoughts are bad, etc, etc. Being... not even a teenager, I can't stress just how scared I was of that prospect. I also didn't question it.

One week, though, we didn't go to church. Actually, no weeks after (aside from like once or twice) did we go back. To this day, I still don't know what made my parents stop going to church, but they also stopped talking about it. So, I stopped thinking about it. Then, in high school I got interested in other religions and just read and read and read about other beliefs. I realized there are a lot of similarities in all these different sets of beliefs people have. It was interesting to me.

To this day I still haven't really... decided my stance on it all. Nothing has ever actually been forced on me, and I'm thankful for that. However, I just... I'm not sure. I just think people should be good to each other. We should help each other out if we can. Basically, just be good people. Meh, I'm not sure if I really said what I wanted to say... the way I wanted to say it, but I don't exactly open up about my beliefs often at all.

tl;dr I dunno what to believe so I'm just gonna try and be a decent person, but you all are cool.jpg

droomph July 25th, 2012 7:49 PM

Algo yer an agnostic brah

I think yer cool too. Glad to see you're not dismissing religion like them stupid atheists (the stupid ones, mind you. Not the PC kind).

And regarding the religion classes the closest I've ever come was memorizing the Ten Commandments for History (it was the Judaism unit mmkay) in 6th grade. And also the Five Pillars in 7th grade for the Islam unit. I've forgot all of them except the Hajj, but they were cool to learn about.

All Mr. Ramirez said was "welp looks like I got hate mail comin' in." He just said that we're required to learn this, and in history classes online (yay crashcourse) John Green said that learning about religion is not worshipping them, but rather the basis for a better future. :D

And Algo if you were worried about going to Hell, I'd say you've repented enough to make it to heaven. If you just talk to God on a daily basis (we call this praying) he'll be more than happy to give you an first class train to heaven. Though if you get some guidance from church it's easier to live a "better life" and "pray" and everything. Also you have worship, and while you can worship in your head there's nothing that can beat getting lost in whoever owns this universe, be it Allah or God or some giant frog from Africa.

Now, you can disregard everything I've said, but that's just what you need to do to live "the perfect life". It's nothing special - repent, talk to God and other Christians, evangelize, sleep, go live another day for Christ. There's nothing that says you have to have a long beard and be snobby or ride bikes from door to door shoving your opinions in someone's face. A true Christian life is a fun one, but each must find his own.

Okay I've offended you enough so I think I'll stop.

And if you're a Christian, or even remotely religious, I don't think you should be intolerant of atheists. After all, it's only by the grace of God that you're better than them, and even then just slightly - thank Him for that through your praise and instead of bragging, share the gift so that they can be better too. If they don't accept it, it's fine - God has let their epiphany happen later, if ever.

Esper July 26th, 2012 9:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph (Post 7270889)
And if you're a Christian, or even remotely religious, I don't think you should be intolerant of atheists. After all, it's only by the grace of God that you're better than them, and even then just slightly - thank Him for that through your praise and instead of bragging, share the gift so that they can be better too. If they don't accept it, it's fine - God has let their epiphany happen later, if ever.

http://cdn.chud.com/5/5c/5c25e53b_attachment.jpeg

So anyway, I had a comparative religions class in high school. It was elective, and the teacher was our local radical and probably an atheist. We learned about "native" religions, and then all the big ones in more or less chronological order: Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and then ran out of time before we could get to Islam. Nothing ever really got all that deep since by the time we got to the religions of anyone in the class we'd all kinda learned it wouldn't be cool to talk about how our beliefs were right and others' were wrong.

HarrisonH July 29th, 2012 5:40 PM

@droomph: wut. Well I have nothing else to do, may as well respond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph (Post 7270889)
I think yer cool too. Glad to see you're not dismissing religion like them stupid atheists (the stupid ones, mind you. Not the PC kind).

I suppose I'm a "stupid atheist" then, seeing as I dismiss religions because they have no evidence.


Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph (Post 7270889)
And regarding the religion classes the closest I've ever come was memorizing the Ten Commandments for History (it was the Judaism unit mmkay) in 6th grade. And also the Five Pillars in 7th grade for the Islam unit. I've forgot all of them except the Hajj, but they were cool to learn about.

All Mr. Ramirez said was "welp looks like I got hate mail comin' in." He just said that we're required to learn this, and in history classes online (yay crashcourse) John Green said that learning about religion is not worshipping them, but rather the basis for a better future. :D

Yep, learning about other religions is always good. You should read into some others and learn more than just the Five Pillars and whatever else was glossed over in your history course.


Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph (Post 7270889)
And Algo if you were worried about going to Hell, I'd say you've repented enough to make it to heaven. If you just talk to God on a daily basis (we call this praying) he'll be more than happy to give you an first class train to heaven. Though if you get some guidance from church it's easier to live a "better life" and "pray" and everything. Also you have worship, and while you can worship in your head there's nothing that can beat getting lost in whoever owns this universe, be it Allah or God or some giant frog from Africa.

And here we get into the evangelizing, which is exactly what you say in the next paragraph you shouldn't do ("shoving your opinions in someone's face"). Pay attention, you'll see that Algo said that he was only afraid of that when he was going to church, before he was even a teenager. Then he grew up, read about a lot more religions, and saw the similarities between them, and now he's not identifying with any. Sounds to me like he's following 1 Corinthians 13:11: "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."


Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph (Post 7270889)
Now, you can disregard everything I've said, but that's just what you need to do to live "the perfect life". It's nothing special - repent, talk to God and other Christians, evangelize, sleep, go live another day for Christ. There's nothing that says you have to have a long beard and be snobby or ride bikes from door to door shoving your opinions in someone's face. A true Christian life is a fun one, but each must find his own.

Do you realize how condescending you are being right here? You're basically implying that a Christian life is the only way to live a fun life. Pretty obviously not true.


Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph (Post 7270889)
Okay I've offended you enough so I think I'll stop.

Thank god.


Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph (Post 7270889)
And if you're a Christian, or even remotely religious, I don't think you should be intolerant of atheists. After all, it's only by the grace of God that you're better than them, and even then just slightly - thank Him for that through your praise and instead of bragging, share the gift so that they can be better too. If they don't accept it, it's fine - God has let their epiphany happen later, if ever.

Well, so much for stopping. Cool arrogance and pride, bro. Fairly certain that's one of your seven deadly sins. And for your last line: Is it really a loving god that would destine his creation to hell by not giving them their "epiphany"? In my eyes, a god like this, if it existed, is completely unworthy of worship, and I'd much rather burn for eternity than worship it.

Of course, I don't have to worry about that, because of the lack of evidence for a god like that existing.

Now, in the off chance you were joking, I apologize for my post. But judging by your others, you probably weren't.

Bela July 29th, 2012 6:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarrisonH
Sounds to me like he's following 1 Corinthians 13:11: "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."

I don't know if a point is made more effectively by an atheist to a Christian by quoting from the Bible. From what I've seen, that tends to confuse people who will think this as a tacit admission of the validity of the Bible. It's an appeal to authority fallacy all around that you really could do without if you just stated the content on its own, since the Bible does not 'own' that idea. =p

Shining Raichu July 30th, 2012 7:58 AM

Welcome Algo and Snowdrop :D

Sorry I've been absent again, you know, life and stuff means I've only really had enough time for OVP for the last few days. I did see you two introduce yourselves a few days ago and added you to the list - I just intended to reply later and never quite got there :P.

Now, onto business.

Alright, I really don't mean for this to turn into 'gang up on droomph' day, but there are some things you said that are kinda out there...

Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph
Now, you can disregard everything I've said, but that's just what you need to do to live "the perfect life". It's nothing special - repent, talk to God and other Christians, evangelize, sleep, go live another day for Christ. There's nothing that says you have to have a long beard and be snobby or ride bikes from door to door shoving your opinions in someone's face. A true Christian life is a fun one, but each must find his own.

Bolded the parts I took issue with. For starters, I very nearly bolded "the perfect life" as well, it was only by the grace of your quotey marks that I did not.

"Talk to other Christians" - I've never known this to be an integral part of being a Christian. Obviously for socialisation purposes it doesn't hurt, but when you combine 'talk to other Christians' with 'evangelize', to me it puts forth the message that you're talking exclusively to Christians unless you're evangelizing. And at that, I don't see why talking to other Christians is an important enough notion to be listed under what it takes to live 'the perfect life'.

"Evangelize"
- this is essentially the same thing as "going from door to door on a bike shoving your opinions in peoples' faces". The only difference is that "evangelize" is the term provided to make it sound like this is a good thing to do - and more to the point, a necessary thing to do. And it must be necessary, again, if it's listed in the ingredients for 'the perfect life'.

"Go live another day for Christ" - this here is my biggest concern for people who choose religion. This is your life. This is not Christ's life. I don't see any reason why anybody should be living their life for anybody other than him/herself. If we are put here for the sole purpose of achieving Christ's ends, then what is the point of being here at all? How is that living, if it's all for somebody else? What was the point of Christ creating us and dying for us if his purpose was ultimately self-serving? Live your life for you. You only get to do life once and if you waste it then there's nothing you can do about that after the fact and then you've squandered your life restricting yourself in the name of somebody who may not even be there to pat you on the pack when you're dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by droomph
And if you're a Christian, or even remotely religious, I don't think you should be intolerant of atheists. After all, it's only by the grace of God that you're better than them, and even then just slightly - thank Him for that through your praise and instead of bragging, share the gift so that they can be better too. If they don't accept it, it's fine - God has let their epiphany happen later, if ever.

Don't you dare go around thinking that you're better than anybody. You've essentially just done what you said other people shouldn't do, and you did it in the most condescending way imaginable. The world is a complex place full of many belief systems; it is vain and presumptuous to go around thinking that everybody is a Christian-in-waiting and they just don't know it yet because they haven't received their 'epiphany'. That is smug and ignorant and beyond that I'm speechless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarrisonH
And for your last line: Is it really a loving god that would destine his creation to hell by not giving them their "epiphany"? In my eyes, a god like this, if it existed, is completely unworthy of worship, and I'd much rather burn for eternity than worship it.

Also, this ^. But Harrison, down boy, calm :P

CarefulWetPaint July 30th, 2012 5:47 PM

Droomph, Andy has many valid points in his post that I really think you should think about.

The main one is live for Christ. Its not his life your living it is your life, no one elses to control but yours. I just don't think this is something anyone should do, sure you can follow his "teachings" as you live your life but its impossible to live for him.

And If you for one second think you are better then anyone else because of your religion you really need to get your head out of your --- and think about what you said, think really hard about it. Believing or being religious does in no way AT ALL make you better than anyone else. This really angers me that you can even say that, it is, in Andy's words "smug and ignorant". It also leaves me speechless to how someone can actually truly think that.

Also if you know somethings going to be so offensive to the people reading it you should not post it in the first place, you should stop yourself beforehand, especially in a club such as this.

Shining Raichu August 11th, 2012 7:00 AM

Well I guess that's at an end, so I guess it's time we move on.

Apparently, the Irish are abandoning religion faster than I'd abandon a screaming baby. That in itself is not shocking, but there's one quote in particular in the article that doesn't sit well with me:

Quote:

There was a need for strong ongoing education in the faith, he said, with a growing need for adult religious education to stop people drifting from the faith as they got older.
That seems incredibly controlling to me. Faith is meant to be a voluntary concept, and it shows the business-like nature of the Catholic religion in general, and its utter need for control, that they would be considering ways not to promote their faith to the constituents, but to stop people from leaving it.

Esper August 22nd, 2012 9:23 AM

I see your Irish and I raise you an American.

America is also abandoning religion. [Read all about it] Here's a bit from the article. The rest is some speculation as to why the numbers have changed.

Quote:

Recently, researchers conducting a WIN-Gallup International poll about religion surveyed people from 57 countries.

The poll suggests that in the US, since 2005:
  • the number of people who consider themselves religious has dropped from 73% to 60%
  • those who declare themselves atheists have risen from 1% to 5%

People starting to be honest with themselves maybe?

Snowdrop August 22nd, 2012 2:05 PM

I heard people in America were fearful to come out as athiests, it's like being homosexual and hiding in the closet. I know some people said they lost their job after they came out, or people started disrespecting them. Now I don't if they're exaggerating, or...? That sounds pretty scary though. I've been hoping for a long time America's religious rates would drop.

Esper August 23rd, 2012 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowdrop (Post 7311455)
I heard people in America were fearful to come out as athiests, it's like being homosexual and hiding in the closet. I know some people said they lost their job after they came out, or people started disrespecting them. Now I don't if they're exaggerating, or...? That sounds pretty scary though. I've been hoping for a long time America's religious rates would drop.

It depends where in America you live. I'm in California and for the most part you're okay to be openly atheist unless you live in a particularly religious town, which we don't have so many of.

But yeah, it is a big like being in the closet since you don't know exactly how people will react. People might get all in your business to "prove" to everyone else how "faithful" they are. 'Cause, ya know, you don't want anyone to think you're a non-believer by being okay with that one kid.

Phantom August 25th, 2012 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowdrop (Post 7311455)
I heard people in America were fearful to come out as athiests, it's like being homosexual and hiding in the closet. I know some people said they lost their job after they came out, or people started disrespecting them. Now I don't if they're exaggerating, or...? That sounds pretty scary though. I've been hoping for a long time America's religious rates would drop.

Whoah Phantom's back, everyone run.

Hello from the Midwest.

Here in Minnesota the Twin Cities area is pretty okay to be an atheist, but if you go outside the city, yeah, good luck.

My parents kicked me out shortly after I announced I was atheist after years of serving the church and going to Catholic school. Then they won't allow me over for family events, like holidays or birthdays. And funerals are outright awkward.

It's a lot like coming out, which happened at the same time. That wasn't fun. I had to have the nice conversation with my mother. "Why yes, Mother, I am an biromantic asexual and I'm atheist too." That was fun. Especially since I didn't mean for them to find out, but they did when she stalked my facebook account when I forgot to log off and read my PMs.

FrostPheonix September 4th, 2012 10:59 AM

'sup guys, I finally am back. After an abnormally long vacation.

I think I had a question open from Barrels... he still read the thread? -if you do barrels, give me an affirmative :)-

if you don't know me, I'm about one of the only christians who reads and responds here ;) so 'sup. and apologies if another christian frequents this now, I don't know of one yet.

And I know you guys stopped talking about droomph, so if you don't want to read it don't bother.
Spoiler:


Quote:

Shining Raichu
"Talk to other Christians" - I've never known this to be an integral part of being a Christian. Obviously for socialisation purposes it doesn't hurt, but when you combine 'talk to other Christians' with 'evangelize', to me it puts forth the message that you're talking exclusively to Christians unless you're evangelizing. And at that, I don't see why talking to other Christians is an important enough notion to be listed under what it takes to live 'the perfect life'.

"Evangelize" - this is essentially the same thing as "going from door to door on a bike shoving your opinions in peoples' faces". The only difference is that "evangelize" is the term provided to make it sound like this is a good thing to do - and more to the point, a necessary thing to do. And it must be necessary, again, if it's listed in the ingredients for 'the perfect life'.

"Go live another day for Christ" - this here is my biggest concern for people who choose religion. This is your life. This is not Christ's life. I don't see any reason why anybody should be living their life for anybody other than him/herself. If we are put here for the sole purpose of achieving Christ's ends, then what is the point of being here at all? How is that living, if it's all for somebody else? What was the point of Christ creating us and dying for us if his purpose was ultimately self-serving? Live your life for you. You only get to do life once and if you waste it then there's nothing you can do about that after the fact and then you've squandered your life restricting yourself in the name of somebody who may not even be there to pat you on the pack when you're dead.
With talking to other christians is meant that you talk to them. Not exclusively to them, but it is integral. You sometimes need that support to hold on to your beliefs. But no, you're definetly not supposed to talk exclusivly to christians. With evangelize, no, I don't think you should shove your face into other peoples' doors. Somewhere in the bible it says you should talk with nonbelievers, get to know them. You should try, but don't be too pushy. That just is annoying. Maybe introduce them to the Bible, show them a book? If they respond negatively, don't push. Evangelizing is hard, but we try. Living another day for christ is a bit hard to explain though. I suppose it sounds wierd, but God wants us to have our own lives. He wants us to have friends, family, hobbies... and not just be stuffy and try talk everyone into christianity. And remember, once we die, we believe in heaven. This life is a means of storing up for our lives in heaven (thats what we believe, at least). I think I'd rather enjoy a life of eternity, rather than enjoy about 90 years, how about you?


anyways, hows stuff going? How do you guys feel about the 22.12.12 deadline coming up? I wanna watch end of the world movies or go out that day :)

Bear September 6th, 2012 12:58 PM

Sign me up please. Atheist and Humanist +1. :)

I'd be happy to answer those set questions that most members have posted. Not sure if they're required, but I'll get to them in detail.

Shining Raichu September 7th, 2012 7:52 AM

Hey Bear, welcome! I took over the club a while ago and since then it hasn't been necessary to answer all those questions, but if you want to, you're most welcome to! I guess it helps us get to know you better :) or else you could just join in the current conversation, whichever you like lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf
those who declare themselves atheists have risen from 1% to 5%

Holy crap, that is... minuscule! I thought it'd be like 10-20% that considered themselves atheist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990
My parents kicked me out shortly after I announced I was atheist after years of serving the church and going to Catholic school. Then they won't allow me over for family events, like holidays or birthdays. And funerals are outright awkward.

Out of curiosity, how did that even go down? Did you admit to it and then they just said "fine, leave"? I just... I have a really hard time imagining how a parent could do that to their child. They say that it's the most unbreakable love that parents have for their children, so I don't understand how people could choose their religion over their own children.

That's what's kind of twisted about the notion of being tested in this life for the afterlife. People are gunning so hard for a spot in Heaven that they would sacrifice their own child for it. It's so selfish. Don't put a child in this world if you're not prepared to stand by him/her no matter what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostPhoenix
This life is a means of storing up for our lives in heaven (thats what we believe, at least). I think I'd rather enjoy a life of eternity, rather than enjoy about 90 years, how about you?

Yeah, an eternal life would be nice, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the life I know I have for the presumption of another beyond the grave. It also doesn't make sense. What is the point of all of this, in the end? Think from Jesus's perspective for a second. Why would you create a world with billions of people in it and drop some vague hints at your own existence just to see how many follow you and how many reject you, and base whether they get to come back home and meet you on their performance?

Is it like, a huge cosmic social experiment? Is Jesus bored and just wants to play his own version of The Sims? What is the whole point of this if it starts and ends with him - what is he getting out of it?

As for 22.12 (though I could have sworn it was 21.12, but I'll take your word for it lol) I'm pretty psyched for it. I have some lawn chairs, I'll just sit out by the pool and watch the fiery meteor shower :P

Esper September 7th, 2012 9:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7331661)
Holy crap, that is... minuscule! I thought it'd be like 10-20% that considered themselves atheist.

Did you notice the part that said "the number of people who consider themselves religious has dropped from 73% to 60%"? That's even more telling to me. You know some of those 13% are really atheists and just don't want to admit it. At the very least, someone who doesn't even think of themselves as religious isn't nearly as likely to hate on you for being different.

Plus I think 5% (1 in 20) is pretty good for America. Religion is very ingrained here and not long ago you would be ostracized from society if you were openly atheist.

Phantom September 7th, 2012 7:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7331661)
Out of curiosity, how did that even go down? Did you admit to it and then they just said "fine, leave"? I just... I have a really hard time imagining how a parent could do that to their child. They say that it's the most unbreakable love that parents have for their children, so I don't understand how people could choose their religion over their own children.

That's what's kind of twisted about the notion of being tested in this life for the afterlife. People are gunning so hard for a spot in Heaven that they would sacrifice their own child for it. It's so selfish. Don't put a child in this world if you're not prepared to stand by him/her no matter what.

I think it's because the fact that I was coming out of two closets at once.

What happened was my own fault really, but it's her fault too. We were at the family cabin, and my phone couldn't access the internet, so I'd been using my mother's to text a friend. Said friend said that he posted something on my facebook page. I use my mom's phone to check my facebook page, and I forget to log out like a complete genius. When she used her phone she noticed that I was still logged on, and instead of being a good person and logging me off, she read through my messages.

Where a few weeks previous I'd been coming out to my friend.. There were also messages to a group called "The Thinking Atheist" where I had a letter written and sent in that Seth read in a podcast. She was livid. I was more pissed that she read my messages!

She was more worried about one closet than the other, and atheism sort of took a back seat until the next event, which was Christmas. I was buying presents and it brought up the argument, the whole you don't believe why are you even bothering? My reply was that either A) People would give me gifts and it's rude not to trade B) Giving presents isn't really a religious thing anyways, and it's a nice gesture and C) It's my own damn money anyways why do you care? Or do you not want the new books I just bought you? From there it spiraled down and I don't even remember how it got to "FINE THEN JUST DON'T COME".

My family just doesn't understand. My mom regrets spending so much momey to send me to Catholic school, and I turn out to be atheist. Thing is a lot of my classmates became atheist too. But personally I wouldn't have traded those years at that school for anything. It was a great school and one of the best experiences in my life. She says it was the greatest mistake of hers. I understand, though sometimes I can't help but feel depressed when I think about how she took it. I stand firm in my non belief though. I reply that she should look at herself. She trurned to her god only when she faced death, and once she was in the clear she threw it away like a used rag. She's been cancer free for five years. Hasn't been to church in four.

Yep.

I was pretty much banished from my family until recently. I was forbidden from family gatherings or even talking to extended family, because I was an embarrassment. Because of my lack of belief I was shunned on family occasions; a black sheep. I got an angry letters from family and friends of the family stating how I need to 'turn from evil' and return to the faith or I will burn for eternity. Other letters said that I was never to see their children, never speak to them for fear of it 'spreading'. My cousin is a priest. He showed up at my place to talk to me. Followed by a door to the face of course when he began preaching about my immortal soul.

Here's a post from another forum from when my mom started to 'see the light' so to speak:

"My mom has always been pissed that I'm atheist, even though she's a rather terrible believer herself. She always brings up that she said it was the worst thing she ever did to send me to Catholic school, and that it made me atheist. I have to agree, but I had to explain to her the other reasons for atheism, the ass hole of a priest we had, the sexist nature of the church, the inconsistency of the Bible, the treatment of gays in the church...

Then she flipped a lid.

Apparently I'm only "bi" because of the people I hung out with in high school. Apparently it was the cool thing to do and I did it to "fit in", just like, get this, my atheism.

I started laughing so hard when she said I was only atheist cause it was cool and I was just acting it. So ****ing funny! I mean when I say I'm atheist, I am a strong atheist and I will start rants and jump in any religious argument I find because I CAN DAMMIT (:P)

Then I got upset. I told her that my atheism, true, has a part with how religion treats the lgbt community. But I told her that I miss Church. She shut up and listened, and it's true. I miss the music, the singing, the feeling that you're in something bigger, the safety of knowing, of feeling that you're safe. When we were in that church for the funeral I cried, not for the departed cause I barely knew them, but for the fact that I missed this, I might not believe it anymore. But the community. I remembered my church and how much I meant to them since I was the only altar server. How it felt when I helped others for church related programs and such. I explained to her that I lost a lot when I stopped believing.

Then she asked why then don't I believe? Save what I lost? I explained that if I were to act like I believed, go through the motions but not have the faith behind it, it would actually be an insult, sacrilegious, and not like I cared, but there felt like there would be something inherently wrong with that.

She said ok.

Then she started actually asking questions. Like, not being mean, but really asking questions and being curious. It as such a step forward. Then she started asking me about lgbt stuff, purely curious. It was such a step forward! That ounce of respect I had for the church in that I didn't want to be sacrilegious, it got to her. I don't know why.

FrostPheonix September 8th, 2012 3:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 7331661)
Yeah, an eternal life would be nice, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the life I know I have for the presumption of another beyond the grave. It also doesn't make sense. What is the point of all of this, in the end? Think from Jesus's perspective for a second. Why would you create a world with billions of people in it and drop some vague hints at your own existence just to see how many follow you and how many reject you, and base whether they get to come back home and meet you on their performance?

Is it like, a huge cosmic social experiment? Is Jesus bored and just wants to play his own version of The Sims? What is the whole point of this if it starts and ends with him - what is he getting out of it?

As for 22.12 (though I could have sworn it was 21.12, but I'll take your word for it lol) I'm pretty psyched for it. I have some lawn chairs, I'll just sit out by the pool and watch the fiery meteor shower :P

I got a bit confused, probably because I'm still drowsy. So apologies if I get anything wrong. God made people in the beginning to be with him. He also gave them the gift of free will. When man chose to sin, he effectively severed his contact to God. Jesus was then sent to save the world from sin; but we have to accept it. It's as simple as accepting Jesus as your savior, and your saved. As to why God gave man free will in the first place, don't ask; I asked a friend that, and he explained it all, but I completely forgot. And really, I think we won't really convince each other with our arguments. I believe in the afterlife, so it makes perfect sense to me. You don't, so you think we're wasting our time. And sorry if I didn't really answer your argument, I think I did though.

Also, you were right. it is actually 21 December. Seems my previous sources were misinformed :P. Truth be told, I'm actually probs gonna watch a bit of CNN and all to see what people in the world are all doing about it. And then maybe watch 'The day after tommorow' :) I actually thought the solar flare theory was convincing at first, as some NASA scientist actually said so. Then 2012 rolls in, and nothing in the news about people getting ready. I figured there might have been, so I check the NASA website and it's a hoax :/. Whoops. Any theories you guys found convincing?


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