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I suppose I could be more sympathetic to this punishment idea if there were bad forces at work, like the devil and so on, that had power over you, but god is supposedly all-powerful. So even if he's being all hands-off and saying "It's your choice. You can choose me or the devil" he's doing it all while knowing he could save you from the devil/evil/damnation/etc. whenever he wants and he's not doing it. He's letting you suffer a fate that he himself created. I just can't relate to that. The way modern, mainstream Christians describe how their god works in relation to freewill just doesn't make sense. Now, the people who say "it doesn't matter, god will still accept you even if you don't believe" are people I can get behind. That seems much more in keeping with the idea of an "all-powerful, all-loving" god. |
Maybe the reason i'm an atheist is because I don't like the idea of having to worship some invisible giant man in the sky...
Oh, and I like to sleep in on sunday. |
What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
I’m divided only slightly on the subject of same-sex marriage since I don’t believe marriage in general is such a good idea. But it’s obviously a matter of equality and everyone should be afforded that right. Kind of baffling that in 2012 we are still fighting this. I’m rather proud to report that same-sex marriage is completely legal in my country and has been since 2006. Still ridiculous that it could have taken so long. Of all social problems, I think abortion has been the most difficult for me to square away. I am pro-abortion, but every now and then I am reminded why those who oppose it do so. It is absurd and extreme to suggest that aborting a foetus is parallel to murdering a baby with a knife. How can anyone calculate the amount of physical pain experienced and then draw the conclusion that they are the same? Of course, those who oppose the idea of abortion ever gleefully forget that pregnancy is a process of slow, gradual degrees. It should be clear that there is a difference between the group of cells at the start of term and the foetus at the end of it. It’s odd to me that some people value and will defend with violence the life of an embryo, and disregard that of the adult woman. And again, how can we quantify the suffering that may occur should the baby be born into harsh circumstances or at the hands of ill-equipped parents? The argument from the “right to life” can be dismantled rather swiftly though. Saying that aborting embryonic life amounts to denying a person the right to live is like saying we are denying the life of every baby that might potentially come from any sexual proposition. Should we then seize every single opportunity to have sex with each other to give every resulting foetus a chance to live? Why are your beliefs the way they are? I suppose the fact that my parents are only moderate Christians had a hand in my relinquishing it. I am grateful to them (secretly) that they never really forced religion down my throat. They DID however, mandate regular attendance of Sunday school and the occasional formal church congregation which was a mere chore to me at the time. The Sunday school meetings were, in retrospect, a joke and I wasn’t in the presence of mind to treat it as such. I think I was also a bit of a cynical child, which didn’t help me in embracing the wishful nature of Christianity. These days my lack of belief is simply due to rational thinking. I realised that the idea of belief is precious to me. It shouldn’t be handed out freely. I want real truth in return for my belief. This, naturally, ruled out a god as a target of my belief. Do you believe in any form of life after death? I do not. What have we seen that points to anything like life after death? Finite things do not frighten me. Do you believe in aliens? No. How is it that they choose to reveal themselves mainly to desert yokels in America? All the “evidence” that I’ve seen in favour of their presence on earth has been childish. As for their presence anywhere else, that would be little more than a wild stab in the dark. Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not? My immediate family knows and most of my friends do too. Of all the people I personally know and speak to regularly are only 2 of them atheists. I am friends with a great amount of believers, all Christian, and I seldom speak to them about religion because I anticipate some black clouds. Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion? I think this is chiefly an American debate so I don’t know all the facets on this one. But judging from the terms, freedom of religion should include freedom from religion. America was founded on secular principles, amirite? Should that not carry some weight here? The separation of church and state gives way to freedom of religion to take place. I think? If God does exist, what do you think it would be like? The god that is most familiar to me is Yahweh, and if he did exist our lives would collectively be the most terrifying, violent, divisive and badly written rat race episode of Big Brother ever. What are your family's general religious beliefs? My parents are moderate Christians. To give you an idea, every month or so they host a gathering of Christians and drink cocktails and selectively discuss and exalt the poetry of the Bible (mainly New Testament, since the stories of Yahweh are too inconveniently uncomfortable). My atheism was quite abruptly thrown into the air one day during an argument with them. It had been after my begrudged Confirmation (a watered down and largely useless version of the Catholic practice, that I followed through with only to appease my mother) to our church and I had not since then been to the church. One day, as we were all kind of irritably getting the house ready for guests, my father hoarsely said that it was time for me to attend the ceremony again and made some comment about how lazy I had been in the past. I quietly refused, he demanded why. I said something along the lines of “The church isn’t for me anymore,” and he snapped, “So, what? You believe there’s no god?” I gave him the same answer and he left. No questions, no elaboration. In hindsight I think perhaps if I had said more it could have escalated, but to this day there hasn’t been another word on the matter. They don’t ask me to go to church anymore, which is respectful I guess. Every Christmas I dare myself to buy them the books on religion and unbelief that have been most instructive to me (and maybe for a bit of irony). |
Phantom, you're a bigger person than I am. Had my parents thrown me out of the family for being either gay or an atheist, I would have walked away and never looked back. I would never have entertained the thought of speaking to them again long enough to rebuild bridges the way you did.
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You are a married man with a golfing hobby and recently you had a child. Your friends have arranged a golfing day months in advance and you wish to go. When you remind your wife of this date, she plasters on a smile and says sweetly "That's fine. You can go golfing if you really want to, or you can stay with me and the baby. It's up to you, I don't mind." If you exercise the "free will" your wife has given you and choose to go golfing, do you think that will go unpunished? :P Quote:
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When people who are against abortion suggest adoption instead, I feel like they forget the part where you have to, ya know, be pregnant and later give birth.... Nooo thank you
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"All thinking people recognize a painful conflict of rights and interests in this question, and strive to achieve a balance. The only proposition that is completely useless, either morally or practically, is the wild statement that sperms and eggs are all potential lives which must not be prevented from fusing and that, when united however briefly, have souls and must be protected by law. On this basis, an intrauterine device that prevents the attachment of the egg to the wall of the uterus is a murder weapon, and an ectopic pregnancy (the disastrous accident that causes the egg to begin growing inside the Fallopian tube) is a human life instead of an already doomed egg that is also an urgent threat to the life of the mother." - Christopher Hitchens Quote:
People who think in this way are trying to create a rule - I applied this rule thoroughly (hypothetically) and am pointing out that it does not work. |
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I myself am for abortion, but not the kind of commercial abortion happening today, where mothers have abortions just like that because they don't want a baby. Why have unprotected intercourse if you didn't? I am for it mostly because of rape victims and of the sort that become pregnant. Or, in some cases, teenage mothers. Although I think teens are just idiots to become pregnant already. But I think you get the point. EDIT: Oh, yeah, and welcome altix! |
Omg yes Altix hi welcome I'm so sorry I missed your post among all the heavy discussion XD. You're a funny dude haha.
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As for teens, they're also going to have the same problems of not using protection properly, especially if no one taught them how, or worse if someone taught them something that isn't true. Basically, pregnancy doesn't just happen because people throw caution to the wind. Responsible people who do whatever they know to do in order to keep from getting pregnant can still get pregnant. I'm sorry to throw the discussion off so much, but I felt this was important enough to say. |
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Here, the state of the parents ought to be scrutinised. Of course, this is where my reasoning is halted - to measure pain is incredibly difficult (impossible, when it comes to potentiality) and details are disputed. Quote:
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"As the Medawars were entirely right to point out, the logical conclusion to the 'human potential' argument is that we potentially deprive a human soul of the gift of existence every time we fail to seize any opportunity for sexual intercourse. Every refusal of any offer of copulation by a fertile individual is, by this dopey 'pro-life' logic, tantamount to the murder of a potential child! Even resisting rape could be represented as murdering a potential baby (and, by the way, there are plenty of 'pro-life' campaigners who would deny abortion even to women who have been brutally raped)." - Richard Dawkins |
What I mean is, while people can put their babies up for adoption if they don't want to keep them, some people don't even want to go through the pregnancy and give birth in the first place. As mentioned above, not every unwanted pregnancy is the result of being irresponsible or being raped, so I believe that people should be able to get safe abortions if they need to, no matter why.
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Anyone familiar with The Atheist Experience? It's an hour-long cable access television show in Austin, Texas geared towards a non-atheist audience. People call in with questions and challenges for its atheist presenters (their quarterback being Matt Dillahunty) regarding religion and unbelief.
Every episode can be found on their website, but some of their more intriguing and amusing call-ins are posted on Youtube (which is where I found them). I find it encouraging to see average people taking a platform like this. Here's a short example. |
AH I'M A FEW DAYS LATE ON THIS BUT I CHANGED MY STANCE ON ABORTION JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO AND I WANT TO KNOW IF IT ACTUALLY HOLDS UP TO CRITICISM SO I'M SHARING.
This is how I see abortion: Say a woman has a daughter that's about 5 years old. That daughter is well, well into the "I'm a real person" stage of her life. She has the right not to get murdered. Suddenly she falls deathly ill and the only thing that can save her is an immediate donation of part of her mother's liver. Her mother is completely healthy and the surgery poses no extra risk. She's financially stable and can afford the surgery easily. She's been taking care of this child since birth so she is responsible for the child's welfare. Even assuming all this, she is not obligated to donate part of her liver to her daughter. Even with the knowledge that without that liver, her daughter will die. Pregnancy is the equivalent of a massive organ donation for 9 months. Since having a child and taking care of it is not a contract that you'll donate organs if they get ill and need them, having sex is not a contract that you'll donate your body to a child if they are conceived and need it. Just like it's an unfortunate limitation of science that we don't have artificial organs for people that can't find donors, it's an unfortunate limitation of science that we don't have artificial incubators yet. However, that doesn't mean that a woman is obligated to become an organ donor to a child without her consent for 9 months. Therefore to me whether or not the child is a person doesn't matter. Does that make sense? I haven't yet brought it up to anyone that might challenge it so idk if it's reasonable under criticism yet. |
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If I did disagree I might say, for instance, that your stance is partially based on a legal argument. Legally a mother would not be forced to give up her liver (or anything else of her body) to save another life, even of her own daughter. Of course, one might say that a mother still has a moral obligation, especially if she is the only person who could conceivable save the girl's life. (Let's imagine that all other possible donors aren't close enough and it's gotta be immediate or the girl dies. The mother is literally the only person who can save the girl's life.) On top of that there are certain laws that say bystanders must help people in emergencies. Could there not be an argument for something like this in liver-girl's case? And then by extension to pregnancy? And, side note, I'm pretty pissed at all the violence that's spread across the Muslim world. People angered that their religion is attacked with accusations that it's full of bad things including violence acting out with violence. Hypocritical? I know a lot of this violence is being organized specifically by anti-American groups who are themselves using religion to push people, but the people being pushed don't seem to have to be pushed really hard to accept the argument that insulting Islam means it's okay to use violence and attack people who have nothing to do with the offending statements. |
What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
Same-Sex Marriage: Surely they can do better at staying together than straight people, yes? I say "Yay"! Love is love. Abortion: I am with it. Can you image what the population would be like if nobody aborted their babies? Can you image what would happen if you couldn't abort a baby because you didn't have the money to care for them, let alone feed? Death Penalty: Again. All about population. If there is ABSOLUTE evidence (physical evidence that cannot be mistakened; such as videotape) then it is a yes. Mostly if it is murder, serial rape, ect. Why are your beliefs the way they are? I consider myself eclectic pagan (wiccan), not atheist. However, much of my beliefs are tied into everything else. My beliefs are this way because (hopefully) I understand how the human mind generally works, as well as what most religions believe in and why. Do you believe in any form of life after death? Yes. What I believe in, is that something of power cannot affect your life or judge you after death if you do not believe in them. So, if you do not believe in the Christian God (Yahweh), he cannot affect your life or after-death, should it exist in your mind. All religious worlds and deities exist in sub-realms, but cannot be opened to you unless you believe in their existance. Do you believe in aliens? Green humanoid men and slug-like blobs? No. Life forms from outside Earth, yes. Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not? My mom and friends do. My dad does not. He does not know because; 1. My parents are separated 2. He does not believe in magick, and is very tight-skinned about religion in general (He believes in a God, but does not place himself in any sort of religion) If God does exist, what do you think it would be like? I notice that much of the discussion here is directly over Christian belief. The correct way to ask this question would be "If deity does exist, what do you think they would be like?"... Anyways, I believe that all spirit and deity have personalities just like ours. There is no "completely good" or "completely bad" being. They all appear to us differently, however. Many associate angels and deities as humanoid, because it is the most comfortable image to see them as. Though in reality, they may come to you as light, an animal, or even something that doesn't even resemble anything you've seen before. What are your family's general religious beliefs? My mother and father do not associate themselves with any sort of religious order, yet believe there is a God. I am not so sure about other family members (Such as cousins, grandmothers, ect) however. |
Count me in. Here's a little gift to all, in case this hasn't already been shared.
36 Arguments For The Existence Of God in PDF format. It takes every know argument and dashes it. |
Welcome, Eeveemaster and Jaegir! I've been meaning to get back to this thread to reply for ages now, but I somehow keep managing to get distracted and never quite got here! :P
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1. I believe in the existance of the Archangels from Christianity (Such as Michael, Cassiel, Uriel, Iophiel, ect). The hierarchy is much different than what nearly everyone writes of, under my experience. Guardian Angels being the weakest/lowest on the scale, and the Thrones and Archangels being the highest. I do believe in the existance of Yahweh, but not at all like any Christian I know. If Yahweh created everything and is everything, that means he is also negative, and creates evil things. My interpretation of the whole "Lucifer cast out from Heaven" is somewhere along the lines of... Yahweh's "Negative" persona was ripped from his form due to the belief of a being called "Satan" which was the opposer of Yahweh and the entity of Evil. Satan isn't even in Hell, nor reigns it. He is just seperate from Yahweh. Lucifer is another seperate entity, and -does- reign over the Underworlds. Those who commit sin do not stay there for an eternity, but rather go to sub-realms to be rehabilitated before being reincarnated again. Lucifer simply works alongside Yahweh. Yahweh is much similar to the Greek or Roman Gods, in that he doesn't have complete power, and -can- be overthrown, but not killed. Under this, I also believe the Archangels to have power like the Gods. (The longest example I will write!) 2. The Chakra system from Hinduism and Buddhism 3. The Reiki system from Japanese Buddhism 4. The idea of a perfect "Enlightened" soul from Buddhism 5. Some Shinto (Especially Folk Shinto) foundations, such as everything having a spiritual "essence" and the particular fashion of water purification (Temizu). 6. The Pagan beliefs of more than one God/Goddess 7. "An ye harm none, do what thou wilt" From Wicca, along with recognizing the moon phases, solar system, crystal working, and basic nature attunement. 8. Nearly all forms of spirits and entities, including demons, djinn, tengu, khodam, fae, kitsune, kappa, Tsukumogami... I've yet to meet something that defines itself as a "Dragon". Too lazy to list the rest :,D And now I am done. |
My church is full of selfish asshats tbh. I love the Christian religion, the fact that it promotes the society that I look for.
But the people make me angry, at least the adults. The youth are fine as far as I can tell, but I am worried that the "leaders" of my church will corrupt them. They see everything as black and white, and they don't allow for compromises. They are the anti-Christ. They don't follow the core teaching of my religion. Yet every sunday they preach the gospel of love and peace and acceptance of the sinners. That is hypocrisy. And it's been told, that Jesus hated hypocrites. He hated their want for attention rather than their selfless dedication to their supposed faith. One who is a hypocrite will surely be kept from the gates of heaven. Hypocrisy is the doing of Satan. They said, "You're only fifteen! It's impossible for you to be right!" But the Bible tells us, "the one who is blessed will be able to match the wisdom of the wisest." I may not be blessed like it says those who are, are; but in the same idea, you can't discount me for being a dumbass just because I'm fifteen. For the truth lies in the Bible, and the truth lies in your truth. The truth is to be looked at and examined, not as a symbol of your "faith". This goes for all religions. Regularly, whenever you lead into trouble, read your truth, and your law. For whoever doesn't is a hypocrite. For whoever doesn't is a fool. For whoever doesn't shall burn in hell forever, even if they have followed the teachings of the Lord. God loves everyone, and God cares for everyone. However, he does not stand for those who use his name in vain. If one uses his name to keep a man or woman from the truth, he will certainly let you die in the afterlife. If one uses his name to hurt, he will hurt in return. Whether it be in this life or the afterlife, he will make sure it is the most painful thing you've felt. If one uses his name unnecessarily, he will kill you. Whether it be in this life or the afterlife, he will make sure you have the most anguished death of your life. But if one praises him, he will bless him. Whether it be in this life or the afterlife, whether it seems like a blessing or a curse, he will make sure you have the happiest blessing you will recieve. But if one lets him carry out his actions through you, he will pay you back ten times as much as you lost, and ten times as much as you ever have earned. Whether it be in this life or the afterlife, whether it seems like a blessing or a curse, mentally or physically, he will make sure you have an abundance of wealth. |
I have no idea what spurred the previous post, but no matter.
Fun fact: According to the most recent Pew survey, nearly a third of people under the age of 30 report "no religious affiliation". Additionally, protestants are now less than half of the total population in America. This is pretty amazing news. This survey shows the continuing trend of religious percentages dropping, while nonreligious percentage grows. We'll have a secular society yet, and finally catch up to most of Europe in that regard. |
I'd like to join. If you had to put a label on me, I'd consider myself an atheist. :)
However, my philosophy follows much of what the intellectual Sam Harris advocates. So long as we call ourselves atheists, people will associate that with negative connotations, or categorize us as simply "those who don't think there is a deity." Rather, if we call ourselves advocates of logic and reason, it becomes very hard to argue against us. Not many people are going to bite the bullet and say that they don't support those. |
Right, time to leap back into the discussion! :D First, the stuff I agree with:
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tl;dr: to reconcile the ideas of a God who loves infinitely and a God who punishes infinitely, you have to bend the concept of love so far over backwards it snaps. You can call the taped-up broken pieces love, if you want to. But - in my humble view - it's unworthy of the name. Quote:
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Think about that. Eternity. Can we even conceive of such a state as finite beings? Can we fully understand the horror of such a fate? And how could anyone possibly be happy in heaven knowing the overwhelming pain and suffering happening beneath them? Chances are you'll know someone undergoing that torture. Could you live with yourself if you went about your afterlife never thinking of them, never sympathising, never pleading with God to reverse their fate? What if it was your brother? Your wife? Your child? Wouldn't the mothers who'd lost their children want more than anything to be with them, even if the pain was unimaginable? Anything but sit helplessly on their cloud, knowing how much their baby boy or girl was hurting. That, to me, sounds like Hell. An insidious, emotional Hell, with none of the stereotypical fire and flames, none of the brimstone, the cackling demons - and somehow all the worse for that. Trapped upstairs while your child burns beneath you - with no hope of escape in either case. I genuinely shudder to think of it. |
Oh my god(lulz) everyone is this thread types so much. I feel lazy here XD. I think Wicca is kinda awesome. I want to buy the book Isis Unveiled Volume two: Theology. It is by this crazy smart Russian lady from 1877. Her name is H.P. Blavatsky. I also want to read the first volume.
Abortion: This to me is Woman's right. I think it is that simple. It think that the situation with the 5 year old daughter is insane, If the mother had the child, given she loves her, She would donate her organ. At that point the girl has not been handed ove to a foster home. Death penalty: I am still a bit indecisive on this...I mean....I don't know yet. One thing I really hate is when a ignorant adult assumes that they are better than me based on age. I slap them with my knowledge. One fun little tale: My "Dad", younger brother, and I were going to get Ice cream. My little brother eats wheat free, and my "Dad" is like "What here do you have that is wheat free?", then Ice creamitory man is all like "Oh, well almost all of our stuff has whey or wheat in it so you can only order off the dairy free menu.", So I said "No. We can have whey." (/troll face), And he was like "Well the thing you have to understand is whey and wheat are almost the same thing. I am alot older so do not talk back!", And then I was like "Excuse me!? Whey is milk! I have been on and off on this diet too, I know." He blushed and gave us our damn ice cream. We went about our day. NANANANANANA, My awesomeness is un-freakin'-deniable. |
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And besides, look at our forum's rules - no mini-modding. This is the same idea. Quote:
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First, thank you for taking the time to respond so politely! :D It's always nice when you can have a civilised discussion on the interwebs. To that end, here are my thoughts on your rebuttal:
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1) We have one moral code ('turn the other cheek' etc.). 2) This directly contradicts God's stated intentions ('you will be punished for your sins' etc.). 3) Therefore God has a separate moral code. 4) Therefore morality is not universal - there is no 'right' way to behave. It all depends on who you are (i.e. God/human). There is no true morality - there is one rule for us and one rule for God in all circumstances (although occasionally these might be the same). Here's where I see the argument running into problems - leaving aside the fact that it is hypocritical by definition to judge others for doing something you yourself engage in, shouldn't we be trying to behave in the best way possible throughout our lives? Since God can't sin, all his behaviour must therefore be perfect. It follows that we ought to imitate God as much as possible in order to strive for perfection - or at least as close to perfection as we can achieve. It really doesn't make sense to say that we should be governed by a separate moral code if this code is inferior to God's. Internally it's just not consistent. If our code truly showed the right way to live, God would obey it too. Likewise, if God's code is the right way to live, we should obey that instead. Handwaving it with talk of 'authority' is irrational - since when did a big stick imply rightness? We are talking of morality here, not punishment or reward. The truly moral man does not flinch from sticks and stones - or indeed fire and brimstone - if they are an inevitable consequence of doing the right thing. Quote:
"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." In our case, 'a superior' is obviously God. And a moral choice is, at all times, possible. I'll leave you with this question: who is more moral, the man who blindly follows orders or the man who first examines them to see whether they are just and should be followed? Quote:
I'll condense this. Sure, God is allowed to pick who he wants in Heaven. That's fine. Okay. But if there is only one alternative - eternal damnation - then no, he absolutely is not. I cannot accept under any decent moral standpoint that people deserve to be tortured - which is what you are saying. If you and I disagree on this, then our concepts of morality are so wildly different that we might as well be speaking in a foreign language. We're just spinning our wheels, trying hopelessly to convince the other of the rightness of our position. I also take issue with the assertion that it is 'easy' to believe in God. We need only study the countless examples of men and women (C.S. Lewis is probably one of the most famous) who have struggled backward and forward with belief to see that this is not universally the case. Quote:
Also, I'm worried you may be misunderstanding: you originally stated that 'if one lets him carry out his actions through you, he will pay you back ten times as much as you lost, and ten times as much as you ever have earned.' I'll do a logical breakdown again: 1) If you are a good Christian, God will pay you back ten times as much as you ever lost, and ten times as much as you ever earned. 2) Some people lose more than others. Likewise, some people earn more than others. 3) Using the formula given in 1), we have 10 x overall loss and 10 x overall gain. 4) Imagine Adam, Betty and Chris. Adam loses his house, his job, his family and dies penniless. Betty, on the other hand, prospers - she becomes a CEO, then a mother, all the while living in absolute luxury. Chris lives a middle-of-the-road sort of life, neither losing nor gaining huge amounts. 5) For the sake of argument, we may quantify loss and gain. (We have to, anyway, to accept 1) as a valid premise.) 6) Say Adam's loss is -90 and his gain is +5. Betty's loss is -5 and her gain +90. Using God's formula, they both receive the same amount in Heaven (namely, +950) - so up to this point, the argument works. 7) But Chris comes along and throws a great big spanner in the works. Say his loss was -30 and his gain +30. His total is +600. This obviously comes nowhere near the relative luxury Adam and Betty are enjoying! 8) So... without completely breaking mathematics, it's impossible for everyone to be equal in the Kingdom of Heaven. If you choose to break mathematics, you'll have to provide a substitute system - which, since maths is basically logic, will be rationally incoherent. If you choose to state that everyone is equal in the Kingdom of Heaven, you're contradicting your original statement. -- You didn't answer my question: 'how could anyone possibly be happy in heaven knowing the overwhelming pain and suffering happening beneath them?' OK, so I'm assuming you're a lovely person who feels empathy for others. My point is that unless that empathy is stripped out, you cannot be happy while imagining the infinite pain and suffering underneath you. Empathy is the ability to understand the feelings of another - and imagining that infinite pain isn't going to be pleasant by definition (since pain is unpleasant). So we have ourselves another conundrum: If you have the capacity for empathy, you can't be happy in Heaven. It follows that the version of you that eventually makes it there is missing some of its original parts - I would argue the parts that are vital to your sense of self. So whatever warped resultant entity is strolling around with the angels, it's not you. Not you as you could recognise yourself. That, to me, is a terrifying thought - and it's why Heaven holds no appeal for me. It isn't me who's going there, after all. Perhaps it looks like me - perhaps it sounds the same. But it is simply a bright machine. Again, thanks for reading! To make it easier to continue the discussion, here's a list of points I'd like answered: 1) Isn't it hypocritical by definition to judge others for doing something you yourself engage in? Didn't you yourself define hypocrisy as a terrible sin? 2) Who is more moral, the man who blindly follows orders or the man who first examines them to see whether they are just and should be followed? 3) Do people deserve to be tortured just for failing to believe something utterly irrational (e.g. in Superman)? 4) Are you choosing to break mathematics or contradict your original statement with regard to relative rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven? 5) Given the following quotes: Quote:
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6) How can the entity in Heaven be, in any meaningful sense, the same as the entity on Earth and thus provide some sort of consistency (which is required if salvation/punishment are to be justified) if it is missing vital parts of the original persona? Once again, thank you for being so polite, and I eagerly await your response! :D |
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Now, it is crucial to understand that God is, indeed, a loving God. The world today has adopted this view of God as an all-powerful being who is sitting upon His throne in heaven, looking down upon the inhabitants of earth waiting for someone to do something wrong so that He may smite them. That's not who God is. He wants all to be saved and to enter the gates of heaven one day to be with Him eternally; the Bible says that God is a patient God and desires all men to be saved. This is why He sent Jesus. For those of you who do not know who Jesus was (and is), put simply, He is the Son of God. Why exactly did He send Jesus to earth? How does that display God's love for us in anyway? This is where the topic of justice comes back in. The Bible says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The Bible also says that the punishment for sin is death: both physical and spiritual. While we must realize that God is a loving God, we must also understand that He is a righteous and holy God. Therefore, sin must be atoned for somehow. This is why God ordained the animal sacrifices in the first five books of the Bible. He alone is holy, and he cannot stand the sight of sin. However, these animal sacrifices were meant to be temporary: these sacrifices were only meant to lead to His ultimate plan. This is where Jesus comes in. Because He was and is the Son of God, He is perfect. This is what His death on the cross was all about: because He is the perfect and living God, only His blood alone can completely and forever cleanse us from our sins. No other sacrifices had to be made because God the Father was satisfied with the sacrifice made on the cross. That is how God displayed His love for us through Jesus Christ. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." While we were still his enemies spiritually, He allowed himself to be made a sacrifice for our sins and was thinking about all of us as he hung there on the cross. Yes, there is a hell. But God loved us enough to send His only Son to die for us. Even if you, reader, were the only person on earth He still would have come to lay His life down that you may be forgiven and allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. His gift of everlasting life has been offered to all of us freely. How do we obtain it? We simply receive it. The Bible says "it is by grace through faith that we are saved, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." We can't earn our way to heaven because we are sinful by nature (recall all the animal sacrifices even the righteous people in the Old Testament had to make); because we are sinful by nature, our good works will never be enough to get us into heaven. But Christ offers eternal life to us freely if we will only repent (change our way of thinking, turn away from sin and turn our lives towards Him) and put our faith in Him. Once we put our trust in Him alone for salvation, He saves us. In fact, the Bible says that we receive His Holy Spirit when we do, and that Holy Spirit is the assurance of our place in heaven. Salvation is through faith alone: not through any good works we can ever do. No one ever has to work for a gift, right? And that's what salvation is: a gift to all who are willing to receive it. And Christianity isn't about living a perfect life. I, and every Christian living today, are far from perfect. We make A LOT of mistakes. But God promised to forgive those who ask for forgiveness. God does not follow a different set of morals: morality is ultimate and does not change with time. However, His ways certainly are different than ours. We think of our own plans, but He has even higher plans in mind: for each and everyone of us. Salvation truly is through faith in Him alone: we are made pure by His sacrifice alone. When we ask Him to forgive us and to be our savior, he will never turn his back and reject our request. Certainly, all of this takes faith, but it is through our faith that Jesus will save us that God redeems us. I hope I made sense in responding to your message. I love Jesus not because of anything on my part, but because He first love me. |
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2) I have never said to blindly follow orders. I have only said that faith is the one salvation. In fact, you should never blindly follow orders, because that clouds you from the truth. What if someone misguides you? 3) It's not the failure to believe - God will show Himself to you when it's time, in the right form. It's the pride that blinds you that is so wrong. 4) I never contradicted myself - I merely said that it's up to Him, rather than you, or any worldly authority. 5) I wouldn't feel for them, because they were stuck up in refusing God's gift for so long. He doesn't require anything from you, and he is in fact, actively giving you his gift. If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place in heaven. I can't stress this point enough. All you need to be is to submit to him. Obtaining His gift is the easy path out (since he has taken your place and done the hard work), and yet it is the best path to take. 6) The person above me has answered that. God loves all of us, and is actively trying to help us cleanse ourselves of our sin. However, if one refuses his effort to help us (which is harder than to not), we have shown that we don't want, nor deserve, his love. |
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Then I told her if God exists I couldn't imagine him being so unmerciful as to reveal that he exists to a person and then ignore their repentance in the afterlife to torture them for eternity, and she just kept interrupting me and saying "no" over and over again. ;_; |
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Also, I understand that the thought of a loved one being in hell can certainly be scary and quite hurtful. In the case with your aunt, simply because she speaks of it so nonchalantly does not necessarily mean she didn't carry hurt inside when her husband passed away. What appears on the outside isn't necessarily a representation of what people feel on the inside. But forgive me if I am out of place in speaking on such a matter. I just understand what it is like to mask hurt from others. |
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And she's right in that he probably is, based on the fact he didn't believe in God or whatnot. However, if he has asked for God or even thought about repentance to some sort, he's probably not. However I have never known him, so I can't say. We can all only hope what is true is true...but as a Christian I do hope that he isn't. |
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Droomph: please don't try to speculate on whether or not my family members are in hell, that's not really acceptable in this situation. |
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We must remember that God is righteous and just. He cannot leave sin unpunished. You know that hell wasn't created for people? It was created for Satan and his demons. However, after the fall of man kind (the story of Adam and Eve) sin entered the world and the hearts of people. This is why God sent Jesus: to show mercy and grace to a people in desperate need of cleansing and forgiveness. As I stated before, He doesn't want anyone to go to hell, but people must make their choice now: to accept His forgiveness or deny it. He has made a way for us because He loves us. :) |
God is apparently the all-powerful being. If he didn't want anyone to suffer in Hell and if his "gifts" were truly "free" then we would all make it into Heaven whether we believe in him in this lifetime or not. If he doesn't want something to happen, then it needn't.
droomph, I find myself becoming more and more disturbed by the things you say. You seem to have ignored most of Barrels' points and just answered his summary questions as though he had said nothing. In any case, of all the things you've said, sticking to your lack of empathy is possibly the most disturbing thing of all: Quote:
So my question to you is, if you only feel selective empathy and are lacking a key aspect of moral and righteous thought, are you any better than those condemned to Hell? God's word notwithstanding and using only your own sense of morality as a guide, does your lack of empathy not mean that you should also be condemned to the same fate? And on that note, is it not possible that God is testing you on this point? Would he want you to feel empathy regardless of his actions and be displeased that you don't? |
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And as I stated before, God simply will not let sin go unpunished. Yes, he loves the sinner, but he must punish sin. And as I stated before, this is the reason why Christ came to earth: to make us clean from our sins. And yes, God is the only all-powerful being. However, he gives everyone a choice. Imagine a world where people were forced to believe in him--a world where everyone was programmed to love God. God wouldn't be showing true love if he were showing forced love. No, because God truly loves each and every one of us, he gives us a choice. He wants us to be with him. Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagine further if a loved one of his was caught in the act of murder. The judge wouldn't want to send him to prison, but because justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make the judge love his friend any less, but the judge understands what is right and knows he must carry out justice in the name of righteousness--even if it brings him much sorrow to do so. Because God is holy, he cannot allow sin into heaven. He can't allow it not because he is following some rules that he must keep, but because it is his character. The laws in the Bible were created by him because he knows what is right because, as we mentioned before, he is the only all-powerful, omniscient being. God is righteousness in its truest form. Christ's sacrifice makes us clean, however, so we are given passage into heaven. But, as I said before, people need to make a choice. I know I've been doing a lot of talking, but the main point I want to get across is this: God really, really does love you. As I have said before, he doesn't want anyone to go to hell. And as I mentioned earlier, God hates sin, not the sinner. His love is so real: and real love allows people to make their own choices out of their own will. I know that talk of hell can really scare some people, but don't let this conversation fool you into thinking that God is scary. He wants to come into your life and be, not only your God, but your friend. He did die for you, after all. The last thing I want to do is misrepresent him, and all he wants is for you to know that he loves you, and that he has made a way for all of us. :) Quote:
Christians aren't any better than non-Christians. I want to make that point clear. We still make mistakes. We stumble. The only difference is that Christians have asked Jesus to come into their lives and hearts to change them. Our only hope is Jesus. Truly, it takes faith to believe that he loves us more than we'll ever know. It takes faith to believe that he will save us from hell if we only put our trust in him for salvation. In the end, it is by grace through faith that anyone is saved. :) |
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I'm fairly certain if I was 100% sure that God existed I wouldn't reject his love. Which is the point I'm making here. After death, if God is real he would make himself known to the person. And then this person who was bad in life becomes repentant, asks for forgiveness. Who are you to say that they are not receiving forgiveness? Why are you claiming to know which sin in life is worth hell and which isn't? Isn't it part of your religion not to pretend to be God by judging others? Arguing "sin has to be punished" and "people who don't believe in God in life are all going to hell" are two entirely separate things. Quote:
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I think the general consensus of religion would disagree with your claim that we are not all God's children.
Are you not a sinner then? Or are you resigned to going to hell? |
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Perhaps you're misunderstanding the meaning of "don't judge others." I did not say that I was better than anyone in my previous posts. In fact, I was hoping to avoid that, because nothing can be farther from the truth. All men are created equal in the eyes of God. Quote:
This is the only reason why anyone can make it into heaven. I'm sorry if I lead you to think that I'm not a sinner. I still fall. I still stumble. I make mistakes. But I have faith that when God looks at me, he doesn't see my sin any longer because he has forgiven me. Why? Because of the blood of Jesus. And also because he loves me, just as he loves everyone else. :) I'm not trying to sound conceited. He offers the very same thing to you and to all on earth. We must also consider the fact that the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe in his name. The Holy Spirit changes us, gives us new desires to not sin and to live for him. Am I saying that Christians no longer have a desire to sin? Of course not. As long as we live in this body, on this earth, we are prone to all kinds of temptations. However, as a person continues to know God more and more, he will want to become more and more like him because of how righteous and loving he is. God's Holy Spirit changes people. In the end, it is his love that leads people to repentance. Quote:
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Edit: I shared this anecdote because this club is a safe space for people to share things like this. Don't make this into a place where people have to fear getting preached to every time they post, please. |
Okay. Let me apologize if you believe I am ranting. Like I said, I'm far from perfect, ha ha. You're going to have to forgive me if you think I'm trying to put you down. I'm not. But just like the members of this club, I want to get my point across: even if that view may be opposed to what everyone else thinks.
Also, I meant no offense whatsoever. If I created or even opened already closed wounds, I apologize. If I put you down or sounded proud or anything like that, then I messed up. But I just really, really wanted to get my point across: even if that meant laying down different verses and such. Is it so wrong to support my view with as much as I can? I'm sure anyone would want to the same. Again, I apologize if my words came out wrong, but I simply can't apologize for what I believe. I respect you. You know that the reason why I believe the whole thing about hell to be true because the Bible says so. This is why I am confident. But I won't force you to believe anything. I wanted to share my views with you, not offend you, so please forgive me for any unintended blows. EDIT: By the way, I didn't intend to make people afraid to post their opinions. It's good to share your views. I understand that sometimes people make it intimidating to voice your opinions, and if I did that to anyone, I apologize. I just wanted to share my views as well. |
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ON TOP of all this, the Bible is FILLED with contradictions: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions and Atrocities: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-atrocities Why would you take any of your morality or beliefs from a book like that? I'm not meaning to be disrespectful here, just giving my two cents. Also, I'd like to join the club. The topics of Religion and Secularism greatly intruigue me. |
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As for the atrocities, yes, there are atrocities in the Bible. As for the sins that the people of God committed, the Bible is in no way supporting those actions. The Bible has stories. Stories have ups, but they also have downs. We must also consider the culture of the people of the time. Although some things were acceptable during a specific era or culture, the Bible does not support these things at all. However, if you read throughout the Bible, one will be able to discern what is right and what is wrong (there are many verses that are very direct about what is right and wrong). If you put the entire Bible together, it all points back to peoples' need of a savior, Jesus. As for God destroying nations, we must recall that those nations were wicked and enemies of his children, Israel. God is just, and he must punish sin. It's just that in the Old Testament his punishment was much more swift and direct. The New Testament is were the new covenant comes in, where the Gentile people are introduced into God's family. If you read the Bible, you will see that the things it does support are morality and righteousness. And I know you're not trying to be disrespectful. |
And based on the fact you may think that the bible has been mistranslated, there's always the original Hebrew and Greek version, complete with particle translations!
I understand that you're all iffy about religion, and I respect that. (After all, this is the ATHEIST alliance :p) However, I wish that you guys didn't bash on us...not that anyone here is necessarily, but...like...YouTube. They bash on religion all the time, on every science-y video saying, "hey dumbass isn't it great to be able to explain things other than..." Just my two cents. However I know for a fact that most atheist people are pretty nice. However, the few just ruin it for me, and I'm sure the few of us ruin Christianity(or any religion, while we're at it) for you too. And I'm sorry, don't listen to them :) |
Ah, intelligent discussion! *rubs hands* I love it. Let’s go!
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‘Science adjusts its beliefs based on what's observed Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved. If you show me That, say, homeopathy works, Then I will change my mind I'll spin on a ****ing dime I'll be embarrassed as hell, But I will run through the streets yelling It's a miracle! Take physics and bin it!’ Quote:
‘All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.’) Quote:
…Also, you answered a different question! I do appreciate the time spent on the answer, but in essence all I wanted was a yes or no. Again, do you claim to speak for everyone deserving of a place in Heaven? 6) The person above me has answered that. Nope, Shdwg answered number 1) – the one relating to hypocrisy. (No one’s actually yet tackled 6!) I’ll just quote it again, since I think you must have misread – if I’m wrong and the problem was that you didn’t understand my argument, just let me know and I’ll happily reword it! :) Quote:
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Bottom line: I would have absolutely no problem with a God who did not hurt those who do not 'love' him. But since he promises to do so… how is this Father any different to the domestic abuser who punches his children because they no longer worship the ground he walks on? How is that reconcilable with any definition of morality as we know it? Quote:
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But only to the most minimal extent possible. And this is where I cannot comprehend the Christian mindset. To extend your analogy, the judge sentences his child to prison. Prison. Not death. Certainly not everlasting torment. To do so would be ridiculously disproportionate and unfair – it would be unjust. To make the argument that failing to believe in something for which there is no reasonable basis – i.e. Superman – deserves eternal torture directly and absolutely conflicts with morality as I see it. Although your point is relevant and well-made, to me, it still doesn’t answer the question. …Perhaps rather than continuing to miss one another, we should agree to stand by certain statements. (If I am unintentionally straw-manning, please do correct me!) 1) I believe that no crime is so great as to deserve everlasting torture. This is because I believe in fairness, in justice – I believe that no crime deserves disproportionate retribution. (Or indeed proportionate – Christians no longer believe in ‘an eye for an eye’, am I correct? We have to be better than the sinners. We can’t sin alongside them by punishing them. If murder is wrong, murdering the murderer – whether you’re God or human - is just as wrong. One follows from the other entirely logically.) Thus Hell is unjust. 2) You believe that failing to believe in God deserves everlasting torture. Thus Hell is just. If we agree to stand by these statements, it’s self-evident that our definitions of morality miss each other completely. Thus it’s futile to argue over who is right – because we don’t agree what ‘right’ even is! -- Quote:
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…Whoo. Okay. Deep breaths. Again, sincerely, thank you for replying and arguing so politely. And please don’t take this as a personal attack – believe it or not, I’m really enjoying this discussion and would like nothing better than for it to continue! (I’m especially interested in your perspective on the sixth point I put to droomph – ‘How can the entity in Heaven be, in any meaningful sense, the same as the entity on Earth and thus provide some sort of consistency (which is required if salvation/punishment are to be justified) if it is missing vital parts of the original persona?’) EDIT: Reading this back, I feel I ought to make one thing clear - I'm really not trying to hold myself up as this supremely moral entity who's courageous enough to face Hell for my beliefs. I mean, I don't actually believe in God, so any moral stand I take is hypothetical at best - it's all 'what would I do if I was certain that God, Heaven and Hell existed', you know? Drop me in front of an eternity of flames and torture and who knows how I'll react. Perhaps I'll sacrifice my integrity to get into Heaven. If I'm being brutally honest with myself, I don't think I'm anywhere near brave enough to face punishment like that. I'm no Gandhi, no Luther King. (Obviously.) The key point here is that it wouldn't be honest of me to repent in that scenario - I'd be abandoning my morality. And that's the problem. To me, it doesn't matter that I couldn't lead by example. The fact that I, personally, don't have the courage to face down Hell doesn't make Hell itself any less wrong. |
Okay, I understand where this is going. Forgive me, but I am stepping out of this conversation. I have already said that God has made a way out for all of us, but all of you keep insisting he does not have any love to offer us. As I have stated many times before, believing that he does love us requires faith. And with that, I will end my discussion here because it looks like this conversation may end up looping itself.
However, I do thank you for reading our posts, and I thank you for being kind enough to share you views as well. :) Oh, but before I go. That whole thing about intelligent design? My point was that I simply cannot come to the conclusion that we were made by chance. I believe that there is a creator and that he has done a lot to show his love for you and me. |
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-Thomas Jefferson Though we find it unintelligable, we are not attacking most Christians. The issue we have with Christians and other religions, is in some of the legislation they try to pass, The ways some denominations are hateful of Atheists, And how most have at the very least a small hatred of homosexuals. We have people like the Westboro Baptist's church protesting at funerals and weddings with signs saying "GOD HATES ****" in relation to homosexuals, or "AMERICA IS DOOMED, AMERICA IS GOING TO HELL." or teaching their children that everyone who's not a Christian is going straight to Hell, and to be as hateful as possible. In the middle east, we have Islam, where people are willing to burn down Embassies and murder Ambassadors over Cartoons of Muhammad, such as the Dutch ones from the earlier two thousands, or movies attacking him like the "Innocence of Muslims" that was released this year. We have organizations like Al Qaeda willing to rise up and slaughter with their religion as an excuse. In America, especially along the Bible Belt, the term "Atheist" is cursed. In some places in the US, you can lose your Job simply for using the term. In schools, Atheist Children(Including myself) have, in many cases, been bullied and belittled by their peers. On top of all of this, we have people like Texan Governer Rick Perry who want to break down the barriers between church and state and run our government solely upon religious ideaolgy, taking no heed to the fact that our country contains more than just Christians. As well as worrying about the barrier between church and state, we have to worry about the position of Evolution in schools. There are MANY religious organizations that want to remove the idea of Evolution, with is based in facts and science, with the 6,000 Year old Earth theory as well as Creationism. We also have organizations such as the Flat-Earth society who, in the name of religion, shun everything that science has to offer if it doesn't wholly agree with what's in the bible. It's not just its followers that plague us, but the idea of the Christian God as well. “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” -Epicurus. Even if we disregard this quote and assume the Christian God is omneiscent and omnipotent, then the man is playing with our lives. Because he's all-seeing, he knows whether or not we will be "Saved" and whether we will go to Heaven or Hell LONG before he even creates us, and thus the Test of life is unnecessary and he's essentially creating people just for them to be tossed into hell. Also, if he's all-seeing, then that completely destroys the idea that we have free will. If he can see what's going to happen in the future before it even occurs, then we only have the illusion of free will. Our lives will take the path that he sees. On top of that, the God of the bible allows slavery (EXODUS 21:20-21), condemns homosexuality yet condones rape (GENESIS 19:4-9), and condemns simple mistakes (2 SAMUEL 6:6-7 ). Oh, and let's not forget how Jesus said that according to Old Testiment Law, Children who curse their parents must be slaughtered (MARK 7:7-10). These are just a few instances of your God's "Benevolent Justice" Use http://www.biblegateway.com/ or a bible beside you to check the sections of the Bible I had listed as proof. “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion This quote rings true as you attempt to read the Bible from its very beginning, to its very end. All of these things combined are why a great deal of us(Though not all) are completely and utterly against religion. |
Oh how ironic that as I type this there is an ad for a Christian Website on the page.
First of all, I consider myself quite tolerant of Religions. Muslim, Islam, Judaism, Rastafarianism and even Pastafarianism. I respect Catholics, and even respect the pope. Many years ago I was christian. I was about 9 years old. I had just started learning about world history and was a big dinosaur fan. Then I learned about the fact that Dinosaurs were not mentioned in the bible, nor how long ago they lived. My belief started to falter, then ultimately shattered. I became a pure atheist, one who respects most religions, and believes that if any religion is the true one, it will probably be something like the Mayans or Egyptians. I see many contradiction with the Bible. The bible is actually built up of Letters by various people, sent to the original author of the first bible. He/She then chose quotes from the letters to include in the book. This is one thing that sticks out in my mind. Secondly, Jesus possibly had other Brothers like him, and might possibly have been married. Even small things like this can turn religion on it's head, yet it is not widely known because of the panic it might cause. Then there are other things I have problems with: Hate against Gay People - Let them do what they want, God apparently loves everyone, and if he made everyone, then why are they gay if he made them? Women aren't supposed to wear Pants/Trousers/Whatever - Why? So she can be "used" by the husband more easily? It's nice to have a decent Debate about religion. I'm willing to hear other peoples views, but if I don't agree with them, you'll know. P.S Please don't read the above as being nasty/hateful/spiteful/blah blah as when I get passionate about something, my writing sounds/looks like it's meant to be nasty. Please take what I say above as a proper and decent argument |
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Just wanna pop in and say, yay! Another Sam Harris-ian in the house! |
SR, please take me off the list. You all have proven that you will not tolerate Christians here, so I'm gonna not even try to get you to respect my view.
You find it unintelligible? How insulting! I may believe in what could be an imaginary man, but that doesn't mean I'm a retard! With that, I see the atheists here on PC (or the Internet, for that matter) won't tolerate religion, and justly so. I'm sorry to have even ever bothered you, and I'm sorry that I ever bothered to try to explain myself and my religion. |
Sign me up, why not.
I'm an optomistic agnostic you might say? I dont know if there is a term for my belief. I was raised a baptist and while I dont believe in a lot of what the bible says I think theres a god, because why not? I pray sometimes and I believe in an afterlife. I dont really believe in the classic Heaven/Hell but I think that there is some sort of afterlife other than it all just goes black and your done. What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why? Gay Marriage: Im against it. Dont really have a good reason though. I think if somebody wants to be gay than whatever. I dont care if they want to have a domestic partnership I just dont want them to call it marriage, if that makes sense. Abortion: Im pro-abortion.(God, that sounds awful.) I think if someone wants to get an abortion more power to em'. The world is already overpopulated and I hate most people. I dont want more of them. A lot of kids are born into really terrible situations because its "wrong" for their parents to get abortions. Death Penalty: Im not really for or against it. |
Sign me up. Being an atheist in one of the least religious countries in the world (The Netherlands), it's not that hard for me being an atheist. Especially in the environment I currently live in (university) where most people are not religious.
What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why? Let gay people marry! For god sake (see what I did there?), what the hell does it matter to you if two gay people get married. How does the fact that they sign a paper make your marriage seem more insignificant or more terrible? How does it affect your life? Kinda proud that my country was the first country in the world to legalize gay marriage (2001). If gay people want to be as miserable as the rest of the married couples, let them ;). Abortion is legal in my country and rightly so. Overpopulation is becoming a bigger problem every day, so that's already one reason. Second, you can have an abortion untill an x amount of weeks. Before that time, the being in your body isn't sentient yet, so it's not really murdering a living being. A fly for example is more 'living' than that little pile of cells. Don't really care if it's being removed, although I do think people should not think too lightly of it. You are destroying something that eventually will be a living being. So I do think people should be heavily consulted on abortions by their doctor or something. Death penalty: not a fan. I do get the sentiment in certain cases, but I'd rather have someone locked up for life in a little cell, than have the easy way by just ending their lives, without dealing with the consequences. Let them figure out what they did and why they need to be punished. Plus, it has happened that decades later, they found out that the guy who they killed, didn't actually commit the crime he was killed for. Hard to restore that. Easier when he is locked up. Why are your beliefs the way they are? My parents raised me without any religious background. They did teach me to figure it all out myself, without any pressure. In my teens, I decided that religion to me was nothing more than a disturbing fairy tale with too many ****** rules that just seemed absurd to me. Do you believe in any form of life after death? I like to think there is something, but I don't actually think there is. If there is, I do hope God won't be a prick about me not believing, but judges me on the way I lived my life. But even if there is anything after death, I don't think it will be the classical Heaven/Hell like the current religions want us to believe, though. Do you believe in aliens? Yes. But I don't think we will discover them untill we invent faster than light travel. The universe is immense, I don't think we are the only planet with intelligent live. Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not? Most people do. Whether you like the phenomenon or not, religion is a very interesting subject to talk about. And being an atheist in my country is not exactly very strange, so no reason to hide it. Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion? If church and state are not seperated, it's hard to have freedom of religion if your religion is not the state's. Seperation is good. It makes sure that people will always have their own freedom of religion, without the state intervening. Freedom of and from religion is good too. I don't get why people don't understand that. If God does exist, what do you think it would be like? I really have no clue. I like to think he is a wise old man, but that seems unlikely. If he exists, I'm guessing he is more like an all-powerful entity. Present, but not really visible. What are your family's general religious beliefs? My mother is agnostic, my father is atheist, my brothers are both atheist too. I have an aunt and uncle who are religious (Christians), but most of my family members are not really religious. Most are atheists/agnostics. |
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It makes sense. Marriage in and of itself is a religious institution. I think it's more about getting equal rights than anything. Any religion has the right to say they won't marry a same sex couple, but when it comes to the government they should still be seen as equals. Separation of Church and State. |
Thanks.
And I also dont believe very strongly in science which Im sure doesnt really fly around here. And i dont believe in Outer Space. Weird, right? Thats the kind of **** you can only tell people anonymously over the internet haha. |
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And I don't understand how you can say you don't "believe" in outer space. Look up at the sky tonight, and you'll see space. That's evidence. |
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Welcome to all our new members :D - and Scruffington I'm so sorry, I must have missed your joining post altogether among all the stuff that's been going on lately haha.
There's a lot of stuff I want to reply to and I will get to that, but I'm running out the door the second I finish this post, so I'll just quickly deal with the two things I find most pressing for now. Quote:
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English fails in that sense. |
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I know you're trying to have a respectful conversation, but I honestly find some of the things you say insulting. And when you said "I think the general religious consensus would disagree", I felt like you weren't listening to me at all, but rather kicking me at everything that goes against your beliefs, but rarely ever mentioning what you do agree with. I don't know what it is, but ever since I posted my thoughts on religion, or even mentioning that I'm Christian, I have felt unwelcome. That's what I meant. And I understand, that none of you particularly understand religion. But you should at least try - I thought the point of atheism was to create a better world than one based on arbritrary rules. |
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Alright guys, no need to go about calling other people ignorant, or making clearly obvious trolly statements to rile others up. *deletes bunch of posts*
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If you were religious, you would understand what religion is like. However, you said, if I recall, that you were atheist. You may have knowledge, and I respect that, but there's nothing like experiencing it. I don't mean to be rude, but I just feel that you choose not to understand. And I realize. However, don't bash on me. That's all I'm saying. |
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Saying you choose not to know/understand something is saying that you're ignorant. That's the definition of ignorant, and you're choosing to assume that we're just either not willing or not able to understand because it's more acceptable to you than realizing that we understand and don't agree with you. Why are you making that assumption? The assumption that "we just don't understand" borders on arrogant; it assumes that you must be right no matter what we say. Notice that in the past in this very club I have defended religion, Catholicism in particular because that's the denomination I have the most experience with. I am farther from ignorant on the subject than most anyone I have ever met, people on PC included. |
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And droomph, dear god, whatever you do dont use the word ignorant. And Toujours quit trying to put that word into his mouth. |
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I think you guys are just going to have to agree to disagree on the point of whether an atheist can truly understand religious views/feelings or not because you can't seem to debate this without arguing and arguments haven't gone very well in here in the last 24 hours. Please turn the discussion elsewhere--this forum isn't really for debates. Those posts were deleted for a reason and it looks like we're heading int he same direction pretty quickly, so I think it's time to start a new topic.
Clubs are safe-havens for like-minded people and while it's okay for non-atheists to come and mingle to build an understanding between the two groups, if a full-on debate is inevitable, it belongs in Other Chat & Discussions, not here. |
(I wasn't part of it)
I never said that you specifically didn't understand it though. I wanna make that clear before we get off the subject. Anyways. |
Jeez, what even happened here? I leave the house for six hours and come home to find a nuke has gone off! I went to a friend's house to watch Breaking Bad, but I should have just stayed home. There was more excitement here than even a show about a crystal meth lab could provide!
Reading over the thread (before everything went south) I realise there isn't actually as much I'd like to reply to as I first thought. I would like to say though, that everything Barrels posts is perfectly in line with me. 10/10 would read again. He almost makes me irrelevant, as everything I have to say (other than the things I never would have thought to say, of which there are many) would be a less eloquent exercise in repetition :P. Quote:
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@Andy: Another not-so-feeling-filled point that I was making to my mom recently - a lot of things I love about my mom are actually considered sinful. So say God is more merciful than Christians on Earth apparently are and allow my mom and I into heaven, as basically good people. The mother that I meet there will be a sanitized version of my mom, without a lot of her personality. Although I guess I'll be sanitized into not liking those parts of her in that case too, so I won't be myself anymore either. :/ |
Whoa. I got some time to come over, and I see an all out war. Well, not really but you get the point.
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Anyways. Hopefully we don't start another argument. But here goes. How do you guys (atheists reading) wrap your minds about time? Do you believe in quantum theory or something that says universes are born out of sparks of cosmic energy or something? How do you think time began? For me, I can't say I find any of the existing theories convincing. But we don't have much of evidence to help form any theories based on science either.. |
I'll be the first one to say that I don't understand in-depth scientific theories about how time began. Hell, I don't understand a lot of scientific theories that affect my everyday life. I hope I get to a point in my life where I have the time and energy to devote to trying to understand it, but that point is not right now, haha. x_o
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The beginning of time is an interesting topic albeit unremitting in its inability to bring forth concrete, proven truth.
To imply there was a true beginning, that would require an outside force. Thus, it was not the true beginning. I find it ironic that discussing the beginning and end of the universe is much like the actual thing- an endless loop. We already know that space and time can dilate, so it's very possible that everything that has ever happened, is happening, and will happen has occurred and is occurring at the same moment and we are just experiencing it at the pace of a human traveling on earth. Time is relative. Personally, I think time is, as I said, an endless loop without beginning or end. I was not brought into existence on my birthday, and I will not cease to exist when I die. Cremated or buried, either way I will return to the earth after leaving it when the first carbon-based organism spawned. Within the earth, the elements that once served as my body will be used and changed in many different ways until one day our Sun envelopes Earth and I return to the stars to do what I did billions of years ago. As part of the Universe, I am forced to believe that this is how it works as well. If our particular Universe could speak and you asked it, "what happened before the Big Bang?" it may not have an answer much like how we have no memory of before we were born- but we still existed and so did the outside world. Sorry if I conveyed this poorly (which I often to about my opinions..) or if it seems out of place, I just noticed the current topic posted by FrostPhoenix and felt an urge to reply since it's one of the things I'm currently into researching. Quote:
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Oh... wow. I feel like there are some things I need to say before I leave the discussion, but it's tough to marshal my thoughts on everything that's been said.
First... I honestly do feel bad if I've upset anyone with my comments. That wasn't my intention, but it looks as if I've managed to break one of the most important rules of the internet during this discussion ('don't be a dick'), and for that I apologise. Perhaps offence is an inevitable consequence of arguing about things like morality – but perhaps it isn’t, and I’m sure I could have conducted myself in a more controlled manner. So on that note... Thank you Shdwj for being so gracious: ‘I do thank you for reading our posts, and I thank you for being kind enough to share you views as well.’ (I wish I had your ability to remain so calm and level-headed during this type of discussion!) Thank you droomph for answering my questions, and again, I am truly sorry if I contributed to your decision to leave. Any argument that ends with a participant removing themselves from the vicinity isn’t won by their opponent, after all. And finally, thank you Andy and FrostPheonix for your very kind words. I’m off now. Thanks for the debate, guys – you were all awesome. |
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And your latest posts have been deleted for being too close to trolling. If that's the way your debates go in general, we'd rather be without them. There have been far much richer and interesting ones in the last few pages. |
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Just because the news says people have been to space doesnt mean they really have. I dont accept things just because people on TV say they are "scientifically proven." I would think that more skeptics would share this opinion but nope. Most just blindly accept what they are told as long as it claims to be proven by science. |
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The point of this is that the explanation that fits all these requirements is the best accepted one. But, if for some reason, there is an instance of the phenomenon that doesn't follow the current laws, or the theory fails to predict an instance, or the logical chain the explanation is based upon is proved false, or if a new, more complete theory is found, the previous one will be discarded. As such, if you "blindly accept" what science says, you are doing it wrong, because science itself asks anybody who cares about it to constantly check the theories and try to disprove them. If they are logically disproven, science moves forward. If they aren't, they hold stronger as their certainty has overcame a challenge. Of course, your regular Joe in the street doesn't have enough knowledge to try to disprove a theory, and that's why people rely on experts to do so. But, if the millions of scientists checking theories don't find anything seriously wrong about them, it's safe to say that they are as correct as they can get. On the other hand, if someone proves some theory wrong, the general consensus will shift. Just a handful of scientists (like the couple of hundreds who support creationism) will refuse to accept it. True science means that you can try to prove everyone wrong, as long as you accept to be proven wrong if your theories are successfully challenged. Of course, if a theory has remained unchallenged for centuries despite constant research, it is safe to accept it by default and use it as a jumpstart, even if it can be eventually be proven wrong. But all of this has nothing to do with "going into space". That's not only science. That's not the work of "evil TV's". That's dozens of living people going there, and talking to other people, and bringing rocks and pictures and experiments. That's thousands of satellites there, predicting the weather, taking pictures of the Earth (from where could they be taken if there is nowhere outside of the Earth??). That's the GPS positioning system. That's thousands of rockets being sent into space by dozens of countries during several decades. If all of that is part of a conspiracy, boy howdy is that an extraordinary waste of time and resources for no apparent purpose, one nobody has properly uncovered yet 50 years later. And even if the discussions between Religion (believe even if there is no evidence) and science (challenge everything you can as long as you have evidence) are somewhat relevant, we are getting offtopic here so I'll stop XD |
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One only has to look into a Telescope to prove that Space "exists". I myself have seen Saturn and it's rings, in my own back garden with a powerful telescope. I even saw a meteor going slowly acros the sky on Friday. Here where I live I can see satelites slowly trekking their way across the night sky, make out most constellations and even spot UFOs. Well, I don't think I've seen any yet, but we do have a UFO research centre :)
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So, let me get this straight - you don't believe in observation being a solid basis for belief, and you don't believe scientists because you don't think they're telling the truth, but you refuse to do research on it yourself? And you're Christian, because that's so logical and make so much sense, but don't believe in what you can see?
http://imgur.com/A517m.gif Edit: Have you told your science teacher at school this belief? |
Well to be fair, the sky does look kinda bland...I find it hard to believe that there's something above that swath of black.
But given that I've been on airplanes... And honestly, even I find it kinda...weird that you believe observation isn't proof enough, though...I don't know. I...have nothing to say...no offense but that's just dumb, any way you look at it. Ifthere's no outer space, how can planes fly? Where's the "cap" at? 50 miles? And given that we can plainly see that solar storms have effects on us...Why aren't we all burned up by the sun? And if the sun is that small, how is it possible to keep going for generations after generation? Whatever. Edit: how can you not believe in science? I can see that given faith has no real "proof", that some people are rightly skeptical of religion. But science is truth, however you look at it! |
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And droomph how is science truth any way you look at it when even scientists disagree with each other. Different scientists believe in different theories. And I just havent seen enough proof to believe in solar storms and all that nonsense. |
You didn't answer my question at all. Have your told your science teacher at school this belief?
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and no Toujours I dont think I have. Ive asked questions about other things that didnt make sense to me like parts of the Evolution theory but Ive always been scoffed at and ignored. I dont know why I would ask my science teacher anything. I dont think very highly of her opinion. |
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Somebody watch Mysteries of the Universe with Steven Hawking on Netflix and tell me all that makes sense. It is very far fetched and alot of it seemed baseless. |
Baseless because you most likely don't understand the basics of what he's trying to say. Don't just say it's baseless, prove it.
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What's the motive for the millions of people across centuries of time all reporting the same thing, no people debunking it, no one disagreeing with it? Why would they do that? Why not just tell the truth, if it didn't exist? In addition, your complete dismissal of all science should be logically followed by a replacement with your own beliefs. While it may be "simpler" for you to just do some hand-waving and say "God did it with magic!", it's not the sign of an intelligent, educated person to not attempt to understand the world around them. Edit, since you posted again: Droomph is 100% right. Do you have scientific proof that shows that his is baseless? Obviously they're not going to go into all the science in a TV special, because people without a significant background in science wouldn't understand even the most basic concepts. And why do you say gravity comes from the Earth? The scientific explanation of gravity is that gravity is caused by mass. You can acknowledge that planets move, you can see them at times in the sky (such as Venus certain times of the year). Why are you seeing them again and again? They move, but then come back. Why? Because of their mass, their gravity puts them in orbit in a balance with all the other planets in the galaxy and our star. Also, you have to specify how much science you dismiss due to your "beliefs". Do you believe the Earth is flat? Do you believe in the boiling point of water? Do you believe that you have a body? |
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And droomph, how can you claim science is the one undeniable truth when only a tiny fraction of scientists believe there can be a God and claim to be a christian? |
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Show me three people who have scientific reasons to not believe that outer space exists. You are not included. You have no scientific reasons. If you've done even the most basic research you should have something to back yourself up, yeah? If not, why bother trying to argue this? Maybe you are. You said it, not me. |
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I dont need to. Im just answering questions about my beliefs. Well, you certainly insinuated it. |
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And (I'm remembering now Rumsfeld's quote about the "unknown unknowns"), it's true that something can't be discarded just because nobody else agrees with it. Nobody thought about evolution before Darwin's age. But, the thing is, you can't accept something as a fact unless you have evidence to back it up. It can't be disproven, but it can't be proven either, and something is not true unless it's proven. Ergo, as it's not proven, it's not true. You don't need to disprove something that has been never proved before. But, going ahead. Outer space has been proven. It's not a matter of "since we can't be sure, I'll go with my own beliefs", as in the legendary god argument. In this case, the existence of outer space has been proven. If you want to argue that it doesn't exist, go on and gather evidence to disprove the huuuuuuuuuuge rolls of evidence in favour of its existence. Otherwise, it's "there is all this evidence" against "I think that". I know what I'll be going with. |
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You watch TV? Most TV satellites are circling the earth, in space. If not then how are you watching the TV? Photos from space. The Sun, unless you believe it is a small ball in the sky. Telescopes give first hand evidence (as others have mentioned). The moon. You might not believe people have been there but you can clearly see it in space, if it was in the limits of our 'sky' then we could fly planes there easy peasy. |
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The way science works, to expand on Went's final paragraph, is that there are scientific theories, countless theories, that are based around the existence of space and explain many things about our world. If you truly want to make a case for this, your job is to disprove them. I would suggest starting with scientific papers; science shows on TV aren't good enough because they don't deal with the scientific foundation, just the conclusions. What part of the evidence in scientific papers do you disagree with? |
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@Swiftsign, I have cable. Photos can easily be faked. Im not sure what the sun is but I have a hard time believing its a ball of burning gas 90 million miles away that we all rotate around at astronomical speeds. The things you see in the sky could just be illusions like the northern lights. Maybe the moon is higher than any plane can fly, or else its not a rock that people can stand on but some sort of optical illusion like the northern lights. Im going to say again, I dont think there is nothing out in space but I dont think its the way everyone else thinks it is. It doesnt make sense to me. |
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