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Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?
I think really, that if all of us fighting together for our rights mean all of us get our rights, why not? Besides, we all have plenty in common, so why exclude them? If we did, I don't think it would help either group out any at all. Do you feel that transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes, break them down, or do anything either way? Well, it depends on the individual. :\ If an individual is TRYING to act based on certain gender-specific stereotypes, than they would be reinforcing them. If not, no. So, as a whole, I think it's hard to say whether or not transgendered people do ANYTHING for stereotypes. It is all pretty much individual in nature. Have you ever witnessed/experienced any anti-trans sentiments/actions (or been the 'culprit' yourself)? If you did how did you respond (or what made you act that way)? Other than talking once with an online friend ages agoi, and since joining this club, I have never interracted or witnessed ANY transgendered people at all. :\ If I saw any anti trans attitudes, you bet I would be all up in their grills. (Did I just say that I did just say that. >__>) |
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Oh goodness Scarf thank you for posting these questions. xD
Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all? Yes, I think they should. I will always say the same thing to people who say that sexual orientation and gender identity "don't have anything to do with each other": They don't have to. We are two completely distinct groups working towards a similar purpose. We are both marginalised or looked down on by society for similar reasons. We both often have to deal with the omnipresent issue of coming out. We both are thought of as "not following gender rules." We also both want society to accept us and it can only help if we work together to this purpose despite any trivial differences or arguments we have. Not to mention, the majority of trans people either are LGB have experienced being looked upon as LGB at one point. I'm a lesbian that is also trans and this isn't at all uncommon among trans women (especially compared to the ratio of lesbians as far as cis women go). Then when you look at trans women that are only attracted to men, consider the fact that many or most of them have presented as gay at times or been seen as gay due to having a boyfriend and not passing. Alternatively, a lot of us (including me, as I mentioned) have been mistaken for gay men due to gay stereotypes, whereas many trans men are mistaken for lesbians (plaid button-down shirts lol). Do you feel that transgender people reinforce gender stereotypes, break them down, or do anything either way? In a purely stereotypical way, kind of both. However, I couldn't care less. If you let stereotypes or bigoted people affect how you act in any way, that's the very moment that you've let them win. Have you ever witnessed/experienced any anti-trans sentiments/actions (or been the 'culprit' yourself)? If you did how did you respond (or what made you act that way)? If ever I've made transphobic or homophobic remarks (which I know for sure I have at least a couple times), it's only because of the complete lack of understanding I had at the time. Quote:
No hetero. Quote:
Let me just say I hope you're kidding. EDIT: I started typing the whole synergy idea before Andy did, so I get copyright. |
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It's really not about being able to get by on wearing pants (which I could--that's not my whole thing). It's that I am a girl and thus if there's a group of people that should be allowed to wear skirts, I should be part of that group regardless of whether I want to or not. It's not even about clothes though. It's such a firmly rooted part of your identity that's so impossible to explain to a cis person. I feel pain as a male in society; it literally makes me sad every time someone uses male pronouns to refer to me. Therefore I wish for things to be otherwise. I shouldn't even need a reason other than that. (Well, I shouldn't need a reason at all.) |
Of course I'm kidding, guys.
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How long did you spend in denial or self-hate before realising and coming to terms with the fact that you're gay/trans/whatever?
Pretty much my whole time spent in highschool was my denial/self-hate period. I came to terms with it when I left school, I think it really gave me time to clear my head and because I was by myself all the time I had the time to be myself without worrying what others thought. Recently though I've began to wonder if I am trans. Its not something I want to think about too much at the moment, but it does play on my mind quite a bit. For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond? Yes, I've been asked by a few people. I just give the calmest "no" I can and try to change the subject in a totally unsuspicious way. Sometimes I'll throw in the cliche "I just havent found the right person yet" speech. |
Do you feel sexual orientation and gender identity should be grouped together in the gay rights movement? Should they be grouped together at all?
Well, I don't think that they're the same thing, at all, but both groups are discriminated against and if both groups fight alongside each other, there's probably a bigger chance of success. Killing two birds with one stone, I guess. Spoiler:
Ima have to go with this. I don't think I've ever really met any transgender people- and if I have I didn't realize it- so I never really paid it much thought. If I were to see any transphobic behavior, I would most likely stand up for them (unless they were like, I dunno, a bunch of 17-year-olds that could easily mutilate me if I said anything. Then I'd be a chicken and. . . do something that won't get me killed, lol X3) For gay/lesbian people, when you were in the closet, were you ever directly asked your sexuality? How did you respond? And I just remembered something to add on to this. . . A while ago, last year probably, one of my friends (she's a girl, she also has a gay older brother that I've never met) asked me if I was gay/bi or whatever. I remember answering with "I dunno. . . possibly?" And. . . well, that's the closest thing I've said to "yes" in one of those situations. Lol, I wonder if she remembers that? xD . . . It also doesn't help that my brother keeps asking me if I have a girlfriend yet, or if there are girls that I think are cute, and then he moves on to say uh. . . straight sexual remarks, I guess. That is so annoying sometimes. . . :/ |
Ineffable~, if you don't mind my asking, what got your sister to change her song?
I'm pretty pleased to read that everyone's cool with having a big inclusive group. Not that I doubted you. :3 I'm so pleased I want to ask a follow-up question. How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability? |
How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability?
Well... I'm honestly not sure. I mean, yeah, then there'd be one huge group of people fighting against discrimination, but many of those people are discriminated against more than others, for different reasons. Some people in one group could even discriminate against someone from another group. Though, if you could get all of those people together and have all of them fighting against discrimination... that'd be one massive group, and I guess you could start by eliminating discrimination between all of those groups, which is already quite an accomplishment. I guess we can say I have neutral feelings for this idea? I'm not quite sure if I said that all correctly/clearly, lol. |
How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability?
I kinda feel like Nakuzami feels. Like, if it was decided that they would join us, I would be all "Sure come on in!" Because yeah, discrimination is wrong, so we don't want ANY. On the other hand, one massive anti-discrimination group might be too large to be effective. :\ It would be difficult to keep track of everything, and some groups might harbor discriminatory feelings toward another group with the larger group. :\ Basically, I think, maybe rather than include them in the LGBTQIPAAOS group, maybe we could help them create their own group that focuses on helping them. That way, they could focus on helping themselves, which might be more effective. I hope that makes sense. :\ I don't wanna exclude, but I think separate entities might be more effective. |
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How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability? Despite not really agreeing with the idea, I actually love when people propose this. It just makes me feel people are thinking the right way. Almost nothing bothers me more than when someone says they "hate fat people" and I feel I hear it FAR more often than any gay or trans-related comments. Regardless, I agree with Pikapal in the sense that I think it would be too large and unwieldy to join completely with groups like these; I mean after all we can ally without actually being one and the same. Besides, I think we already fight together through things like "end discrimination" campaigns. Despite their obvious emphasis, discrimination means discrimination so when we fight against it, we fight for everyone. Quote:
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Finally, internet! Time to catch up. I agree that anti-discrimination groups should stay with their subjects, like ours being sexuality. But some kind of occasional anti-discrimination get-together would be nice.
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How would you feel if the queer movement wanted to include other people who face discrimination, such as people who are discriminated against because of their weight, or a disability?
While discrimination against anybody is of course wrong, I'm more cautious about grouping us together with people who face a different kind of discrimination. Being overweight in particular, discrimination aside, is a problem that needs to be fixed. It's a health issue that does require a remedy because it impacts upon the quality of life. By saying that, I'm not saying that discrimination against overweight people is justified by any means, but I have to wonder whether grouping the LGBT plight with that would send across the image that homosexuality too is a problem that needs fixing. I think that it would end up being detrimental to both causes. And that comes from someone who is gay and also used to be extremely overweight. That said, I would be more than happy to help out in any anti-discrimination campaign, but I don't think that they should be linked together. It would be confusing for the public image. Additionally, the LGBT community's movement is incredibly specific. In addition to ending the discrimination we face, we are also campaigning for specific rights. The right to marry, the right to serve our countries, the right to adopt etc. It doesn't make much sense for other minority groups that are discriminated against to join a fight in which they have no direct interest. Our fight is specific to us. If all of us wronged parties wish to come together and help each other with our battles then I think that would be amazing, but for official purposes I think the causes need to remain separate. |
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Of course what makes me re-think all of this is how I cant stand the opposite sex physically (so I why would I want to change my body to that). |
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Body hatred is something a lot of trans people feel, but it's also something that non-trans people feel, too, of course. (And of course there are trans people who don't feel this, and so on.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of trying to pinpoint a term I'd encourage you just to do whatever you feel suits you best and not worry about the terminology. If you prefer to be thought of and addressed as one particular sex then you should let people know that. If you just want to dress a certain way without wanting other parts of your identity to be different then you should do that. I know it can be nice to say "I'm _____" and having some camaraderie with other people who are the same, but I would hope you'd be happier being true to yourself and carving out an identity for yourself. If it turns out that you're trans then good for you. If it turns out that you're asexual and genderfluid then good for you, too. As long as you're happy with yourself that's what matters. |
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. . . Sorry about the weird disorganised wall of text. ~_~ Quote:
I can't speak completely from the perspective of a heterosexual woman since I'm not one, but I'm sure for a totally heterosexual woman it's just as disgusting the idea of having sex with a woman despite being a woman herself . . . if that makes sense. Also there are even lesbian trans women I've known that have had something similar to disgust when having sex with a woman (as a man). That is to say, she would feel horrible and depressed and start crying due to the whole position being wrong. By all this I mean I don't think being disgusted with the opposite sex is any reason to doubt being trans. Other than that I think you should try some of Scarf's ideas. Just do whatever makes you feel comfortable. |
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Now I'm kind of regretting using overweight people as my example though. I wanted to bring up the idea of gay rights in conjunction with women's rights and the rights of racial minorities since those are people who can face discrimination for something that they shouldn't. I just didn't want to turn the conversation toward a discussion about feminism and racism since, I dunno, I didn't think people would want to talk about those topics here. |
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As far as racism, I honestly think that that issue is strongest on its own. While people still openly can say "I think gay marriage is wrong", it's pretty much an accepted truth (at least among the educated) that for example being against interracial marriage is wrong and such. Because it's been so widely accepted that being racist is 'wrong', while for LGBT issues it's not as widely accepted yet, I feel bundling the two together would weaken the stance that racism takes because instead of people seeing the connection and taking as strong a stance about LGBT issues, they might instead see the connection and take a less strong stance on racism issues. |
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. . . To keep this from being a spam post I'll just say I also think racial minorities and women/men are just too "common". I mean I would be incredibly surprised at anyone who's never seen a male or a female in their life, and racial minorities, despite being minorities, are quite common in America. My point being LGBT people are not all over the map like some people, and people often don't have to think about the issue at all because they don't meet gay or trans people. Also, even if they did meet gay or trans people, they wouldn't know it because it's not a "visible" condition. The only way you can perfectly tell if someone is gay is if they either tell you or they walk around with their significant other being cute. I have known tonnes of people who claim to have never met a lesbian before me, and at least four people in this thread have never met a trans person before (and probably WAY more than that). |
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But before I totally derail this thread I do want to point out that the gay rights movement as a whole has a very white face and there are some varying levels of, if not racism, then racial ... ignorance? ... within it. Like a gay friend of mine has told me that there a lot of gay men who have a "no fats, no Asians" policy when it comes to dating and are very public about this. I personally don't like to see other issues/groups getting sidelined for one group's cause. |
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I think the only way we could "give LGBT less of a white face" is by just individually participating more in general anti-discrimination stuff, i.e. focusing on ALL anti-discrimination. That's what I'm all about. :P We, as LGBT people that aren't racist, can try and go out and show how we don't want any discrimination ever. Try to emphasise this on your own terms by doing your own good things. However you can't get white racist people to care about minorities . . . you just can't do it. |
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However, while I am attracted to females I really cannot stand being in a female body either and am constantly trying to appear to be as masculine as possible and prefer to be adressed by male pronouns. Maybe I should have just said that to begin with. I really do appreciate your and Ineffable's input though :) |
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