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Competitive Battling Chat
COMPETITIVE BATTLING CHAT A lot of people have asked for some kind of casual chat since the (second) DCC met its end several months ago, so we are putting one up! We do want to stress that this is not going to be like either of the old DCCs, so we'll define the general aim of this thread.This thread is for laid back chat and discussion about any aspect of competitive battling, free from serious, heated debates as well as the kind of spam, intimidation, and trolling that accompanied the old DCCs. It's as simple as that. There are only a few ground rules for this thread: — Follow all Competitive Battling Center Rules. — Do not stray from the realm of competitive battling in this thread. This is mostly just to prevent it from becoming a third edition of the DCC. — Try to avoid getting into huge debates. You can disagree and contest points, but this is supposed to be a casual chat. When you start breaking each post down into several points and then countering each one, it has probably gotten a little too serious. — Be respectful. Again, let's not make this DCC 3.0, okay? This is really obvious and we trust that everyone will be civil! If things get too off-topic or serious, a mod will post a friendly reminder. This is mostly just to give everyone a place to enjoy a more relaxed atmosphere, especially since competitive battling can get a little intense sometimes! Enjoy! |
Let's hit the ground rolling with a question I just came up with!
How do you deal with SmashPass teams? With the addition of Baton Pass to Mirror Bounce Espeon, SmashPass teams have risen in usage and can easily thrash most unprepared opponents. Phazing options are extremely limited when Espeon is still around as it can simply Magic Bounce your Whirlwind/Roar right back at you and baton pass right back to Gorebyss. I don't ladder often, but I figure my best bet at this moment is with Amoonguss and Clear Smog. It can't be taunted, or reflected, and since he's grass, he can take a hit or so from Gorebyss if it decides to stay in and Surf/Scald. If the opponent switches to Espeon, it's too late because Clear Smog would be my first move. :D |
It seems to me that the new round of voting from Smogon has provoked some opposition from regulars on our forum, perhaps most vocally on Garchomp, now formally banned from OU / Standard, and there are disgruntled members who question making Thundurus a Suspect. On the other side of the spectrum, some have regarded the firm decision to keep Latios and Deoxys in OU disagreeable while Garchomp is being banned. The only result that came without controversy, without disagreement, without large public outcry, was the decision to keep Excadrill OU. I myself do not particularly oppose any such results (although I am somewhat annoyed by a few from this round, but it's mostly apathy), but it is clear from my observations that others do not share such a view. What do the fellow ladies (although they are a clear minority, and do not share the same compassion for competitive battling here) and gentlemen think of this round of voting, if it is not too late to discuss it? I'll be abstaining from this discussion, which I consider appropriate since I do not have a strong vested interest in opposing bans or decisions in the other direction, and only wish to gauge the general opinion of others.
On an unrelated note, our attempts to enforce policy that will theoretically (or try to) promote activity and refresh our member base with a new generation of PC members are starting to roll off the production line. Tutoring will start soon if all goes well, and there is certainly enthusiasm and compassionate veterans of S&M / CBC to try and make sure it is a civil and energetic endeavor. I do think it will generate some form and degree of success, but it is audacious to think it will directly generate a recovery of this forum and renew the ranks; I think it is fair and somewhat optimistic to say it will help along the grander scheme, and provide a model for other ideas if it goes through successfully. Hopefully, our tutors will be polite and pass on a calm mindset, and give newer players less familiar to the competitive environment a set of basic rules and simple rationale; while I do not think practically doing everything for students is prudent it might be best to give them heavy advice, depending on the situation and relative experience of the student. We shall see. In any case, I'd like to see how others think this shall go along. Any commentary on current policies aimed at reviving this forum, or thoughts on how to continue this attempt at recovery (future actions etc.)? |
My view of SmashPass teams is simply that the use of them is so formulaic and robotic that it's not even worth winning with them because you aren't even responsible for the win really. I mean, competitive Pokemon is about winning so it's perfect within the limits of the game, but I just don't really prepare for them since I'm a very casual battler as it is and I honestly can't think of much that can stop them anyways. Though I won't say I've tried too hard.
As for the suspects, I haven't played against Deoxys-S enough to have an opinion. Excadrill is very very good but not Uber. I am conflicted on Thundurus because I've never really found a good way to stop it but at the same time it also never gets more than one or two kills in my experience. I don't really know on him. Believe it or not, I've seen like, one Latios ever, so I won't comment. I tend to lean toward agreeing with the Garchomp ban just because one single Sand Veil miss can really be the difference between a win and a loss because Garchomp is already so gifted...but besides playing against Wolf's Sub Chomp, I don't think I've ever missed vs. one. I guess I'm just really lucky lol. Hopefully activity picks up! The spirit of the old DCC was right but its execution was horribly flawed, so hopefully this becomes a fun thread for everyone :) |
I feel like with Garchomp they can potentially just ban it with Sand Veil and let it have Rough Skin and still be OU. I mean with the main reason behind the ban gone, why not allow it back in?
SmashPass is just ugh to me. I feel like it's almost you're admitting you care about nothing but winning, because I personally find it a cheap tactic. There are so few counters and checks to it that it's boring to even use in my opinion. I don't know, maybe that's just me =3 |
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Well, it could be what Anti said, or it could be because Rough Skin is an unreleased Dream World ability. They can't just make an exception to and allow this DW ability just because we want to keep Chomp. Once it's released, I'm sure it will either go through retesting, or will just be allowed in OU straight away.
Also, I don't think they're really that against complex bans. See: Drizzle + Swift Swim. |
If it's unreleased then that would make sense. But then again even if that wasn't the case why wouldn't they allow Blaziken back in without Speed Boost. I guess it might just be the whole "we set up a precedent, we can't go against now" thing.
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Didn't Smogon ban Drizzle altogether, or am I missing something. :/ Maybe they're just hating on Gorebyss.
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No, rain teams are still extremely common. They just hindered them by disallowing the use of Swift Swim and Drizzle on the same team. It kind of made Kingdra unstoppable, and other things were too powerful too, like Gorebyss and it's deadly Shell Smash set that's outsped by next to nothing.
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I would say that Drizzle isn't banned yet, but I have a feeling that eventually there is going to be enough support that it gets booted, whether or not it's "right." I think weather wars give Gen 5 a cool thing that makes it distinctive personally, plus it's a more diverse metagame in many respects than Gen 4 was once Dragon centralization really took over.
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The best way to take down SmashPass to to make it so that the first pass fails. Then it's just an easy -1 defense for something like CB Scizor to pick off with Quick Attack or Bullet Punch. On my curent team I lead with Heatran whenever I see Espeon and spam Lava Plume. It's weak enough to to not kill Espeon, thus stalling out screens and dangerous enough to deter most things from switching in with that 30% burn rate. For some reason nobody expects Roar on Heatran anymore (and me staying in...) and Gorebyss just Shell Smashes only to be phazed away :/.
If all else fails, just spam strong attacks? Something like Scarf Terrakion can outspeed most Pokemon even after +2 and can KO Espeon before it puts up screens. Also, bringing Garchomp back with Rough Skin is like bringing back non-Speed Boost Blaziken. It's Smogon policy to not to apply complex bans if possible which is why so many people are itching to repel Aldaron's proposal. Besides, banning Sand Veil would make Cacturne (even more) useless D: Edit: Just how many more replies did people post while I was typing? 0_o I'm slow... |
Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?
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Oh flamehaze don't hate on Cacturne 'cause he's really cool ;_; @what Derk said: Indeed, hopefully we can continue to attempt to destroy the demons of the past. Wolf, Aura, and myself are open to any ideas for boosting activity and such, maybe bring back ComNight or something? We really should get T&E going though! It's dead atm and I think all of our regulars could prop it up in a heartbeat. |
Yes, I guess. But Sleep Clause is standard, and who's to say you can't run more than one swift swimmer? Also, not everyone likes running Whimsicott (such as me) as some see it as dead weight on certain teams.
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When you first said flamehaze I was thinking that it would be a dumb strategy to spam Will-O-Wisp and Haze or something. :P Then I realised that it's a user. I needa learn to read some more.
I like Cacturne. It's the first Pokemon I ever RNG abused. <3 |
I suppose Cacturne could be good.. in NU or something lol
After a couple test matches, I can safely say that SubToxic Gliscor is the most annoying thing ever and this is coming from the user. It sits at a sexy speed stat and can EVed to outpeed neutral base 100s or be bulky as hell with the standard spread. It can scare off something like Heatran or Scizor, Toxic and rotate between Protect and Substitute. This set is potentially scarier with Toxic Spikes, were you can just stall without wasting a turn with Toxic. Teams without something like Skarmory or Reuniclus (Cloyster too I guess) will be hardpressed to do anything about it, because it can easily come in AGAIN and restart the cycle. |
While Gliscor walls my revenge killer, Terrakion, I don't have much trouble with it, since Rotom-W and Hippowdon [with Ice Fang and Roar] can handle it really well. Gliscor is a great Pokemon, though, I may consider using it on my upcoming Communist Stall Team.
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The standard Bulky SD set is fairly easy to deal with sure, but I'm talking about the SubProtect ones. The problem with Rotom and Hippo is that both are susceptible to Toxic on the switch, which severly hampers their staying power. Even Rotom-W could potentially be slower if Gliscor is Jolly natured. Hippowdon can't to anything to Gliscor besides Roar. Ice Fang will fall to Toxic + stalling. That thing can even beat Ferrothorn 1vs1 due to Power Whips low PP. Something with Aromatherapy can work I guess, but clerics are very rare.
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I just wanted to say that I am a fan of this thread.
@ smash pass: I've never actually came up with a team that had a plan to specifically deal with smashpass teams, particularly because I'm a) not a great teambuilder and b) I've never really focused on "dealing with opposing threats" and moreso just figuring out what walls me since I don't think I've ever successfully played anything but heavily offensive teams. Generally I've found it's easiest to beat smashpass with a variety of prediction, checks and priority. I generally start off with a heavy hitter like CB Dragonite who more or less ensures that Deoxys-S or Espeon only gets up Reflect, and then I'll find my way to Magnezone on the switch to Gorebyss. From there it's just trying to outplay the opponent in their head - I could just click Volt Switch and see what they do or I'll Flash Cannon an incoming Garchomp or something. I've honestly only lost against smashpass teams when I've really been outplayed - yeah, it does require a higher degree of... something to keep up with it because you are dealing with more powerful threats etc, but I don't feel like it's something that's absolutely unstoppable no matter what your team is unless you run Perish Song Politoed etc. @ sub/protect gliscor: GAH GO DIE IN A HOLE GLISCOR. >:O this thing is really annoying, especially if played correctly. I've been deliberating on running Icicle Spear on Mamoswine just for things like this and Sub-Twave Dragonite. Or I could go run CB Cloyster... Also Lala I skipped over your post entirely. Is that bad? :x edit: nevermind I read it. :) |
I actually laddered my first ever Wifi UU match just earlier today and it was against a dude ranked in the top 50 0_o. The variation was something like +91, -2 or something riduculous. Since I had no idea how UU works, I decided to throw in some of my favorite Pokemon. The team ended up have 3 Sucker Punch users with 5/6 of them having LO. Needless to say... through a combination of luck, skill, and whim I managed to secure victory! SubRhyperior curbstomped everything after his Bronzong died. I kinda feel bad for him though ;_;
So yeah, UU's suprisingly a fun metagame (not better than Ubers though ;D). I'll be playing it more often after I learn the ropes first. This part doesn't really have anything to do with UU, but I've seen A LOT more double dragons + Magnezone offensive cores lately (thanks PK...). And Haxorus is getting some use and I've been on the recieving end of CB Rivalry Outrage before... ouch. Not that they're common or anything, just they're around. |
^BRONZONG IS UU????????!!!!!!???
And lol, flamehaze, I should totally play you in ubers. It's so fun. I suck at it though, and I want a good team-mate for Groudon other than Ho-Oh. (maybe reshiram but idk) |
That was me on the Beta server. They have a more active Ubers ladder than Smogon's which is why I'm there more now.
Giratina-O is a good partner for Groudon, since it beats Forretress and can priority Shadow Sneak to kill Deoxys-A and Mewtwo that threaten Groudon. It's also a pretty ok switch in to non-Specs Kyogre. Palkia is generally an awesome partner too. Groudon + Scarfkia beats every single Rayquaza there is. It can also abuse Rain in case Kyogre shows up and can be your primary switch to sponge Specs Water Spout. |
Oh, I was already using Giratina. Not Giratina-O though, but since I got rid of Forretress and Spikes with Tentacruel I guess I could use Giratina-O. I guess I'll try Scarf Palkia, but I already have Ho-Oh as a scarfer. Maybe replace Zekrom with Scarf Palkia and use standard Ho-Oh? idk i thought scarf Ho-Oh was pretty dumb anyway because of stealth rock despite rapid spin. :(
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another thing to watch out for is a drizzle team with thundurus using thunder because thunder has 100% accuracy in the rain and it deals a lot more damage than t-bolt.
and with tornadus the most common things I've seen are tailwind users, sub stallers and the flying gem and acrobatics combo |
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Nah, probably not that strange at the musketeer trio. Terrakion is such priority bait that very few people can use it effectively and when they do it's hard to do so - though it is a fantastic Choice item user. Both Choice Band and Choice Scarf are very good on it. Cobalion is hardly used at all because its base 129 stat (Terrakion's is Attack, Virizion's is Special Defense) isn't nearly as useful as the other two. Virizion is actually the one with the biggest niche - its typing lends itself to be a great bulky water check in general, absorbing hits from literally every bulky water and then spamming Calm Mind in their face. Regardless, it's generally not used as much because it's still really frail defensively (from the physical aspect). I dunno, I'm just not really that surprised that you don't see them that much. |
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Dragonite is a little harder because of Multi-Scale. Icicle Spear and Double Chop are probably the easiest ways to break it, although Mamo's Icicle Crash and Specs Latios' Draco Meteor outright OHKO those with little bulk investment anyway. There are other ones too but Multi-Scale is what makes Nite really effective. |
so i thought this would be an interesting topic: what do you think is the biggest change from 4th gen OU to 5th gen? i assume it could be anything, to an extent. seeing as one could say all of the 5th gen pokemon or dream world abilities, you may only reply with one pokemon/ability/item/etc (or weather) that you think changed the metagame the most.
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Definitely weather. It's caused a lot of issues when it comes to tiering and banning threats. I guess Dream World in general, since that's what started it. Other things from Dream World that I feel are notable (besides Ninetales and Toed) are Mirror Bounce Espeon, Multi Scale Dragonite, and Sheer Force Nidoking (although he's less noticeable). I personally really like it, because it keeps us away from the "spam dragons/steels" that Gen 4 became with Platinum, which was honestly the most boring thing to play.
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Can I just say Dream World? It's given a lot of Pokémon new life, like Espeon, Dragonite, Politoed, Ninetales... while some of them aren't useful at all, new abilities for old Pokémon can completely change how effective they are (in the case of say Politoed) or just like making them this much better like Mamoswine and Thick Fat. AND THEN you have things like Regenerate/ion (I can never remember what it is) Slowbro/Tangrowth - those abilities made those Pokémon much much much better. And there are still things yet to be released - Ditto breaking the revenge-killing game, anyone? I dunno, I think the Dream World totally changed our perspectives on why exactly some things are good, and how other things just need that liiiiittle nudge in an ability or a moveset or something to make it great.
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Im actually going to nominate Smeargle, Gorebyss and Huntail OR Espeon next round because smashpassing is unable to be banned (even though it received a MASS amount of nominations) as its "too complex" so those pokes are gonna have to go to prevent this bs lol. @ Garchomp/Blaziken alt abilities in OU: Cant do it as its a massive double standard if we let chomp back and not Blaze and too complex. Which is silly imo. If it improves the game, why not do it, even if it is "2 complex" ? Speaking of "too complex" arguments, anyone else think this only applies when you have an exceedingly small brain ? "ONOES, BLAZE BLAZIKEN IS ALLOWED BUT SPEED BOOST ISNT ?!?!?! MY BRAIN CANNOT FATHOM THIS AAAAA" lol ~~ Quote:
Anywho, Thundurus counters; Unaware Quagsire, Swampert, SP.Def Blissey, P2 (Eviolite and Priority Traced T-Wave ftw), Sp.Def Jirachi and electrics (Vire, Eelektross and Raikou etc) seem to be the best things that check it. Anything faster such as Scarfers work wonders. As always the amazing Mamoswine proves to be an awesome switch into it. The biggest change; imo is the fall of Heavy Stall. Its literally impossible to do now after it dominating for 3 gens. Whilst stall still exists in some forms (semi stall, elf stall etc) your classic Skarm, Bliss, Hippow stuff is extremely hard to do now. |
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I dunno if that made complete sense but that's my opinion on it. |
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Yeah id like to see Genesect banned. Heatran and Chansey are the only thing that really walls it well tbh. :/ Though i doubt Heatran is going to want to take Douse Drive Techno Blasts or even Download T-Bolts. ~~
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Keldeo is another Pokemon who I'd like to see banned. 2 of the 4 types that hit it for super effective damage [Electric, Psychic] are primarily comprised of special moves, which can easily be absorbed after a few Calm Minds. Secret Sword makes Blissey and Chansey susceptible to its attacks, so the list of Pokemon that wall it is narrowed down to Cresselia and maybe a few others that I'm forgetting, as I type this.
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Pssssh, I use Psyshock for Keldeo. :)
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For those of you who care:
1. I forbid the use of my guides etc as they will be reserved for people who actually appreciate. 2. Goodbye, i wont be coming back. |
well let's let this thread get to a point where we can start discussing things again
who has seen this? i think it's a really interesting concept but something that you'd have to build -entirely- new teams for. you'd think that removing hax would be as simple as removing crit chances but that's really removing every kind of luck there is at all. plus a lot of things will be less good - notably jirachi, but outrage users beware: "Outrage always lasts two turns and lowers the user's Atk and SpA 2 stages when it ends." i mean, it sounds really really interesting and something that would be hard to get into at the same time because of all the new restrictions you'd have to get used to. on the plus side, things like stone bad and focus miss will be a lot easier to use but focus blast also is a drop in spA.... idk, it's so weird! a whole new metagame, even. what are your thoughts on a server like this and what do you think you'd use on your team if you battled on it? discuss gogogogo!!! |
It's a neat idea for sure, but I'd refrain from playing it because I have no problems with the current metagame. Sure, luck becomes annoying, but I figure "so what". I never ladder though, so it's probably just an opinion that formed because I just casual battle and hax never gets to me.
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It doesn't really appeal to me much especially because no moves ever miss (though of course they had to do that to eliminate luck). It's really just a whole new game and it's kind of impossible to speculate :o. It is good that players who despise luck have a place to play though.
At least Rock Slide won't miss anymore X) |
i did say i would have liked it with just no critical hits on the server, but it does seem interesting with the changes. i may make a team for that metagame when the server is up. nothing else to mention about it...i'm not really against it since it's just a side metagame.
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Awesome. :)
I'll definitely at least be trying it out, it'll let me use lots of sets that were pretty unavailable before because of certain things (Like Dynamicpunch Machamp completely outclassing Guts Close Combat). |
Ok Spartan, look. You linked to pornography. There are two locations for the rules (a sticky here in CBC, and one on the server itself). It alerts you upon logging in that you can read the rules with a /rule command. In pink text by the way also highlighted by the *** on either side. Also, when is pornography ever OK to post? Your argument seems to revolve around the idea that you didn't know the rules, but no pornography shouldn't even have to be said as it's a general rule of any forum that isn't...adult-oriented.
Regardless, this conversation is better suited for PM or VM. To put this thread back on track: The whole Thunder / Blizzard / etc dropping respective stats is basically a D-meteor thing, making those moves rely on STAB it seems. Thundurus could be fun to run Specs on with Thunder. Tornadus would be the same, but with Hurricane. |
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Well Thundurus and Tornadus both have base 125 Special Attack, making those STABs do extremely high damage, must like Latios (but he has 130 Special Attack). It would certainly be easier to resist than a dragon type stab I guess.
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It'd be the same thing as a lot of hit and run attacks are now - like Specs Latios. In their respective weathers I think they'd feel fairly underwhelming though, considering that they'd perform the same way they do now but without the chance to paralyze or confuse. Just a thought, anyway.
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Honestly, I never found moves like Scald to be hax that was supposed to happen. Even with a 30% rate of a status condition, it's annoying when Jellicent try and spam Scald at Ferrothorn until it gets a burn. I'd rather that gets removed. It will be relieving to see moves like Stone Edge hit, however. Instead of biting your nails every time you choose to use them.
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has anyone battled on that yet? does it affect gameplay that much really??
also did my avatar work? lol |
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I think it's asking for a lot of prediction and very very good teambuilding. You'll have to be very effective with your team choices to have any kind of relative success in this kind of metagame - and, it does remove luck. You have to out-skill the other person to win. :x |
The more you guys talk about it the better it sounds. So is the server up already? Like, can I play? lol, I'm excited. A whole new metagame with the same Pokemon, awesome.
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I actually don't imagine a lot of status abuse. Sure, W-o-W hits now, but aside from that there isn't that much reason to use status imho, especially since the sleep counter only lasts two turns and never resets, as well as freeze being nonexistant. Quote:
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I...I don't know about the new metagame. Sure some Pokemon like Terrakion would certainly appreciate Stone Edge NOT MISSING but it isn't really bad at all when it does, even if it does cost you the game. Though I always complain about hax and how much I hate it, it doesn't really feel like it's same game without it. It's always tense when you have to rely on a move that misses every time, biting your nail waiting for your opponent and then it hits/misses. Yeah, I like that. I also like relying on hax with Jirachi, or being careful of getting haxed. I only hate losing and being haxed from a noob, but when it's against someone good, I think it only adds to the intensity to the match, which is good.
It's really like Mario Kart Wii. I always complained about the hax there (and it's really BS) but when I tried playing without items it was just...not fun anymore. I might try it and see if it's better, but for now I'm sticking with the current metagame. |
Just a tip, but if you ever fight a good battler, they're guaranteed to have Jirachi on their team. Otherwise they lose to Latios and Reuniclus, two extremely broken Pokemon who have yet to be banned since Smogon enjoys abusing them and using them both as last ditch efforts when their teams have been completely dismantled.
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Hello ladies. Look at your teams. Now back to mine. Now back at your teams. Now back to mine. Sadly, your teams aren't mine. But if you stopped guessing randomly about synergy and what worked together, maybe your teams could have a chance at being as awesome as mine. Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're rapidly shooting up the ladder with a team less suckish than your old one. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's a Cloyster with a synergy tool. Look again. The tool is now ...still the same tool. Anything is possible when you use a neat synergy tool to help you with your teams instead of suckishly guessing. I'm on a Keldeo. do-doo doot dee doot do dah dooo
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/f7/Spr_5b_091_s.png in case you did not understand that (which i wouldn't put it past you guys), i found a really cool/useful synergy-relevant tool that i think would be awesome when you're trying to put a team together. click on the cloyster to use it. :) |
Cute for type synergy, but I look past that in most cases and try to find synergy through what threatens whatever sweeper I'm using (which isn't generally that hard to find out...). Neat nonetheless. Could be useful for beginners when they're just starting out. :]
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In any case, I believe if you were to compare the two, Reuniclus is the one with no checks and thus is more broken. |
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383 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (120 Base Power): 516 - 608 (142.54% - 167.96%) That's a LO Trick Room Focus Blast. 287 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (120 Base Power): 386 - 456 (106.63% - 125.97%) That's a +0 CM Reuniclus Focus Blast. 430 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (70 Base Power): 340 - 400 (93.92% - 110.50%) That's a +1 CM Reuniclus HP Fighting. If you'll notice, Excadrill doesn't have that much of a chance to take a hit. ;x |
Adamant +0 Excadrill does 40.09%->47.64 on CM Reuniclus with X-Scissor and 80.19%->94.81 at +2. With Earthquake, it does 37.74%->44.58% at +0 and 75.24->88.68 with a +2 Earthquake.
The fact that a Pokemon with an attack stat of 405 3HKO's it at +0 shows it's far too broken defensively, thus leading it to an uninterrupted sweep. Also, new topic: What are the CBC Community's thoughts on the return of User Pokedra? |
I, for one, am excited about Pokedra coming back. He was a good battler back in the days and I'm excited to see him in the new generation!
Also, yeah, Excadrill's defenses aren't the best, so it won't be taking any Focus Blasts from a base 125 special attack. Reuniclus is insanely annoying to fight because of Magic Guard, recover on the CM set, and trick room to mess with your fast pokemon. It's like a +6 speed boost for himself because you don't even have to make other pokemon on your team get an advantage from Trick Room. He's so bulky and powerful that he only needs it for himself. Kinda says something if you ask me. :x |
I don't mind Pokedra's company. While I do admit to treating dear Pokedra badly, I think the times have changed, and we have changed with the times. He has already had experience with competitive battling, which will be of great benefit with regards to returning to a competitive scenario with Gen V. Pokedra knows our competitive regulars / hermit community, so he'll be more comfortable with us (people tend to be nervous or less open around people they don't know). I am confident that this community, including myself, has gone past openly boasting hostility towards members, and realizes the vice inherent in such treatment, not least of all when we're concentrating large amounts of energy and effort into encouraging activity, and trying to open the floodgates (in a good way) for new players.
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I'ma butt in and say that the Synergy tool Vrai found is amazing! :D
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What synergy tool? And what's this thing about max defense Excadrill? xD
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Oh I see. Well, I should put that into good use when the time comes. That is, when I think of what team I should build.
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I think I need to build a new team, I've just seen Pokedra's SmashPass team, I remember I had one of them but I didn't put enough effort into it to use it effectively, I may start building a SmashPass team.
I'm gonna use Huntail! <3 Gorebyss can suck it. Huntail's base stats; 55 | 104 | 105 | 94 | 75 | 52 Gorebyss' base stats; 55 | 84 | 105 | 114 | 75 | 52 Gorebyss is superior, but I always find trouble getting a Physical Pokemon onto a SmashPass team. Huntail needs some lovin' |
Gorebyss is just the superior Smashpasser because it has the higher singular stat to attack with if need be. Huntail would need to go mixed to abuse his stats and that detracts from its bulk. :(
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Both are no match for Amooonguss, so I mean, what's the point? Huntail just dies faster. ;]
Also, have any of you actually tried Amoonguss in the current metagame? It's surprisingly good and it seems a lot of people just overlook it (most likely because of Ferrothorn for grass), but his fighting resistance is extremely handy and he can survive a lot of things most people wouldn't expect (I think he survives Specs D-Meteor from Latios, but I dunno if that actually happened or was a dream). Just a little tip for future team building: "Worried about losing to smash pass? Use Amoonguss." I put him on my team specifically for that, but to be honest, he does much more. I'm thoroughly surprised by his performance. |
Just for fun I threw a team together with both Gorebyss and Huntail. I'd just pass the Shell Smash to the next one while both screens were still up, then do it again. Although it seems to be glitched (Sometimes my special attack would still end up +2, or my defenses would both still end up -1 even with the White Herb on both of them), when it worked, it was an easy 5-0 (Because my Uxie always uses Memento). Also, Dragonite > Garchomp as SmashPass recipient.
Btw I tried the no luck server, and honestly, I don't think it made enough of a difference to be that fun really. Although I only battled two people and didn't build another team for it, just used a previous one. And yeah Aero, I use it on a full stall team I made, Chansey / Ferrothorn / Jellicent / Torkoal / Amoonguss / Bronzong. He's definitely a great team member, although I don't really ever do anything with him besides take hits. |
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Yeah, I haven't tried the server yet, nor do I plan on it. |
I use Amoonguss to stop setup sweepers with Clear Smog, as well as sleep / paralyze pokemon. Opponents tend to switch to other pokemon after they've be put to sleep, so you Spore / Stun Spore after and lawl. Giga Drain is also useful for slowly beating some pokemon like Jellicent who for some reason decide to stay in.
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On the topic of underrated 'mons.
Anybody thinking that Mamoswine is actually pretty beast this metagame? It can revenge kill weakened [email protected], Thundurus, Salamence all the while sporting one of the strongest Earthquakes in the game. I recognize its prowess after it witnessing it in action today. Then there's Xatu who's arguably the better magic bouncer in a non-BP team. One, it can actually wall some stuff. Two, it has Recovery in Roost. Unlike Espeon it doesn't get 2HKOed by the common Spikers, Skarmory and Ferrothorn. I can still see why Espeon is preferred however, due to higher offensive stats, but Xatu usage needs to go up >:[ |
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Xatu I remember using at the beginning of BW but gradually fell out of using it - and Espeon, too. I mean while their ability is cool I'm still not fond of using it as the only thing to keep SR off the board - it requires outstanding prediction imo (probably just for SR on stuff like Tyranitar - switching into things like Ferrothorn is easier). I DUNNO I just find it difficult to use the Magic Bouncers effectively, but that's probably just me. :( |
Mamoswine is the best, I don't see why it would be underrated, I understand it's power and I'm wary when fighting them! D:
I used Xatu a couple of times, he never really shone for me, Espeon took the spotlight. Although he has recovery in roost he still can be smashed by a strong attack, as can Espeon but Xatu is just weaker. /has a hate for Xatu. Speaking of underrated Pokemon; Zebstrika caught my attention in UU, he's quite good, with a base 116 Speed he can outspeed a lot of things, what outspeeds him? :| With a not-to-shabby base 100 attack he can take down a few as well, and throw Thunder Waves around. |
Even with nice optimization, Zebstrika isn't a /fantastic/ Pokemon, not even in RU, since eviolite Gligar, Hippopotas, etc wall it to hell and back. I might get back into RU, depending on how successfully I am on the OU Ladder, just to reward myself for all the stressful laddering. I'm really looking forward to using Throh, it looks like it will be the Conkeldurr of RU, and it even has a much better SpDef stat.
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Zebstrika... well, I haven't done anything with him, but he just seems too frail in any tier that it's in to get things done... plus its main STAB has a nice recoil attached and yeah idek. I just don't really wonder about why it's so ineffective - it just kinda -is-. :( edit: fdkjskfldsj karpman beating meee |
I agree that Zebstrika isn't the best, but it can do a good job of fighting. I mean sure Gligar and Hippo laugh at it, but Zebstrika can still kill annoying things that get in the way.
I haven't played anything below UU, isn't RU - Rarely used? Isn't that just the NU of this generation? D: Or is it the borderline of NU - UU because y'know Never =/= Rarely, contradiction ftw |
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Also, it goes Ubers - OU - UU - RU - NU. It's not like a banlist for NU, it's an entirely new tier. If they didn't create it, there'd be some 400 Pokemon in NU. :x |
Hello everyone!
After a really long time of inactivity I'm back, yay! Wow, metagame sure has changed, a new tier, that's great. I'm very rusty right now, but I can't wait to start battling and creating teams again :D |
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Also, has anyone seen any really cool things or anything on the ladder? Or, I guess, come up with some cool ideas? This metagame is definitely a great place to try ideas, because really anything can flourish if you play it well enough and create a team to support it (as Oppo proved with his tailwind stuff). I've been playing with a SubPass Mienshao >> Nasty Plot Celebi combination lately. I mean, it's not perfect (and I stole SubPass Mienshao from Oppo) but things that naturally come in on Mienshao like Gliscor and Jellicent just get set up on from Celebi, and if Celebi has its sub up it can nail [email protected] with a well-timed Shadow Ball. Plus Mienshao scares off Tyranitar who seems to enjoy coming in on Celebi (though a +2 Giga Drain hurts like hell for it) and gets a free SubPass somewhere else. I mean it's not great but it's been successful enough to push me through top 100 on ladder. What have you guys been working with/trying/been successful with/have ideas for etc? XD |
I've been using Wobbuffet + SS Cloyster for some clean, straight sweeps. I've been pairing this duo with Drizzle Politoed so Hydro Pump destroys even SpD Jirachi in the rain after Spikes damage. Cloyster is a pokemon that cannot really set up without Focus Sash, but doesn't have enough power without Life Orb. Wobbuffet can easily give it a chance to set up and destroys faster Scarf Pokemon like Terrakion and Latios. I've beaten some really good teams with this both in OU and in Ubers (use Kyogre :p) and people need to seriously reconsider Wobba again. For some reason it's not getting use but when use correctly, oh man, things get ripped apart. Shadow Tag is still broken as hell imo, despite the 3 turn nerf to Encore (in game, it's technically four though :/ since PO counts the turn its used as turn 1. FIX!!!!!)
Tyranitar + Tangrowth is another good one. KG proved to me Tangrowth's great physical bulk which is actually higher than that of Skarmory! Tyranitar can Pursuit Latios that love to switch into Tangrowth (Power Whips still hurts like hell though) and can take Heatran on all day if you have Low Kick. It can also get rid of Ferrothorn through Fire Blast. Regenerate also helps Tangrowth recover off SS damage. It's a little Scizor weak, but ehh... nothing a little Gliscor / Skarmory wouldn't fix. |
well I've been working with a smash & pass gorebyss holding a white herb. it can take a physical hit decently and after a shell smash it pretty much outspeeds everything with speed EV's and timid nature, it will be able to baton pass to the poke of my choice. i usually pick conkeldurr because it benefits a lot from the speed and attack boost, allowing it to drain punch away and recover some HP.
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What are your guys' thoughts on overcentralization? Is it a legitimate argument to use when considering if something is banned? What is the "defintion" of overcentralization? Are there Pokémon that really overcentralize everything? What's the difference between "overcentralizing" and "used often"? If something is overcentralizing, what does that say about it and the rest of the metagame? Would taking out Pokémon deemed "overcentralizing" completely change the metagame, or is really one or two Pokémon out going to make much of a difference? Should the word "overcentralization" exist? Just trying to kick some life into a creative discussion. You don't have to answer all of that, but rather discuss your thoughts on overcentralization and use those questions maybe as a backboard - if you don't know what to talk about, look up there and see if you can answer a few of those. I tried to come up with some good ones. ^o^ |
Centralization is caused by most OU Pokemon. I don't know how something can "over-centralize" to be honest. Obviously, if something causes a lot of obvious centralization like Latias did last gen, for instance, it may be an alarm that says that the Pokemon could be broken, but it's not really proof.
Even though (at least on here) I haven't seen the term used much, I've heard a lot of "well Latios/Reuniclus forces you to use Scizor or Sp. Def. Jirachi or Tyranitar" or something like that as proof that Latios/Reuniclus is broken. I don't really agree with this approach, personally. In gen 4, Heracross and Lucario (which of course turned into just Lucario) "made" a lot of people use Gliscor. In my view, something is broken not when it causes a lot of centralization but when even with the centralization it still dominates. But eh, tier stuff really is a toughie. |
Well, jrr[insert more r's here] has a different definition of overcentralization than I do. I don't think of overcentralization as usage, I think of it as something like Reuniclus. I know Anti hates this argument (probably) because it's what I use to argue that Reuniclus is broken, but it's so damn annoying when you're forced to run SpD Jirachi or Scizor to beat it (Tar doesn't work because Reuniclus survives Crunch and OHKO's back with Focus Blast). Note the fact that they are "SpD" version. They're so ridiculously specialized that it makes their other sets completely inferior because you can either run a regular hard hitting SD Scizor, but lose to things like Reuniclus and Latios, or you can run the SpD version just to beat them. :P
An overcentralized pokemon, in my eyes, is something with decently high usage and causes a player to sacrifice a slot of their team to specifically beat said pokemon with a specialized "counter set". The fact that Reuniclus has two things that can solidly beat it scares me like no other, and I know in a battle with Anti the other day, he had to sack 4 mons just to wear of Trick Room and KO him (then again, he did lose his SpD Jirachi early on due to hax, but regardless...you had decided not to run SpD Rachi or Scizor). I won't discuss this topic further though...It seems I've had this discussion too many times and it's basically a political debate. xD |
My definition would be somewhere along the lines of "forces the vast majority of the metagame to adapt", but then again that applies to everything. I don't believe in overcentralization, because if I did I wouldn't believe in a metagame. Things are good. Some Pokemon aren't used simply because others exist. See: Starmie. What would you do if you weren't forced to run HP Fire because of Ferrothorn? Starmie could spin on everything. It's one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier (3rd fastest, iirc). It'd smash things on a Drizzle team (imagine: dual-STAB Hydro Pump + Thunder... actually, it still does, even when Ferro is there lol). Worst comes to worst Starmie is a much better Pokemon without Ferrothorn than with it - does that make Ferrothorn "overcentralized"? I don't think so. I think Ferrothorn makes the metagame adapt to it, like literally every other Pokemon. I think that "centralization" is what makes a metagame a metagame - if something's used a lot because it's good, other things will adapt and beat it. You can't use the basis of a metagame as the reason why something is broken in it. :(
@Aero: Debates and discussion is what this thread is for, isn't it? |
Well yeah, I know it's for debates, but I dislike this particular debate...normally I agree with Anti...xD But I don't this time, and his argument skills are top notch, so I try to avoid it with him.
I still stick by my idea that overcentralization is grounds for banning. Honestly, you all can't think that Reuniclus is good to keep around. :[ I've swept teams with him and he's just there to beat mach puncher that would thrash my Terrakion. Heck, he sweeps more teams that my Terrakion, who I built the team around. >.< |
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Ehh, I think that you're simply using the incorrect terminology in my book. Something causing the metagame to work around it is not cause for banning imo because literally every Pokemon does that. Every Pokemon "causes" the meta to change. Maybe to different degrees, but they all adapt. And even if you say "well the ones that change it the most are broken" then we will continually ban everything under that reason until we're left with CB Delibird and Specs Torkoal... which would be an interesting metagame. @@ I dunno, it's the slippery slope argument, but you really can't ban something just because you call it "overcentralizing", because no matter what is at the top, it's going to be "overcentralizing". That's my thoughts, anyway. :( You can ban something because it breaks those characteristics Smogon sets, but tbh "overcentralization" is not an argument to ban anything in my eyes unless someone can show me why it should be. :( |
Ookay how is this for a troll team idea in UU?
Firstly, Linoone exists, and only requires one turn of set up. It is also frail as hell. Wobbuffet is UU as well. Sense a pattern? Empoleon and Steelix are the only viable steels.. But Magneton and Dugtrio could fix those. Froslass with scarf provides Fighting immunity and Spikes, as well as even more ways of crippling walls, such as Chansey and Deo-D etc Finally Zoroak is UU. Imagine the pressure. Soooo yeah, any ideas how this could work out? I mean, when I've managed to encore something into what I want and I've gotten rid of the Steels it worked pretty well, but those ghosts still annoy me ;( Almost considering switcheroo aiming mark on the switch, just to hit them with that +6 ES loool |
You could consider CB Azumarill > Dugtrio since Waterfall hits like a truck to Steelix anyway, it lures Empoleon for Magneton, and Aqua Jet mauls most available ghosts iirc unless someone's going to use Eviolite Frillish on you but you have Seed Bomb for that. :)
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Well, after arriving at a verdict through calculations as well as some research on Oppo's part, we concluded a small debate/investigation on the PO server. After finishing, I realized it would have been an awesome topic for this thread. D: So I'll just post our findings here in order for others to see what we found out:
The Question I was wondering, we all treat Choice Band/Specs/Scarf as a +1 boost to their respective stat, right? And we know that a +2 simply doubles the stat. But I was wondering, what would happen if you somehow managed to pass a +1 boost on attack to a Choice Banded pokemon. Would the attack stat double? Or would the two 50% bonuses act separately? The Verdict Turns out, Choice Band is a separate boost that acts outside of the normal boosts. This means that the stat won't double like a +2, but instead be multiplied by x2.25, making it even more deadly! I only ran one calculation, but Oppo said that on Shoddy it used to act as a x2.25 boost. I chose CBHAxorus against physically defensive Skarm; here are the results: 252 +2 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 40.12% - 47.31% 3 hits to KO (with Leftovers) 252 +1 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 44.91% - 52.99% 3 hits to KO (with Leftovers) As you can see, the Choice Band with a +1 does more damage, although not entirely significant in this case (because of Lefties), but I can imagine it makes a difference on some pokemon if somebody ever decides to pass boosts to Choiced pokemon. The only practical situation I can think of where a boost and choice item could be applied is on something like CBGyara with Moxie or CBKrookodile with Moxie, maybe Mence and Heracross too. Oppo and I did some testing on the PO server with the same CBHaxorus with +1 and the +2 one. Turns out the calcs match. So...weeee. I just thought it was interesting is all, and it sort of bugged me for a while and I never thought to ask the question until now. :] |
Yeah, Choice items are a 1.5x modifier to a respective stat, so it's slightly different then a +1. Of course, this doesn't make a big difference but it's still very nice to know.
Also, rain is everywhere in DW ~_~ I'm going back to WiFi |
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On another random note, CB Gyara has had an... interesting effect on my thrown-together rain team. It 2hkos things like Skarmory for Scizor to come in and sweep later and lures Ferrothorn for Scizor to set up on and does a chunk to Rotom-W, though not as much as I'd like it to. However it does outspeed random bulky versions of Rotom-W which is cute. Plus it lived a random unboosted Jirachi Thunderbolt. \o/ |
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