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Vrai June 28th, 2011 6:32 PM

It'd be the same thing as a lot of hit and run attacks are now - like Specs Latios. In their respective weathers I think they'd feel fairly underwhelming though, considering that they'd perform the same way they do now but without the chance to paralyze or confuse. Just a thought, anyway.

Vrai June 28th, 2011 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 6718315)
Honestly, I don't even think that's going to be the most broken/abused thing when it comes to that particular ladder.



Jirachi could still run rampant with Body slam, and I think Heatran might be used more often too.

And expect the rise of Slowbro/Slowking on this ladder. Knowing Scald inflicts burn on second consecutive attempt, they could be more efficient walls and what have you.

Also, I kinda forgot about Milotic. More of the lesser used water types now becoming overused with just about guaranteed burn with scald.

well, think about it - it's not like only jirachi can run rampant with body slam! other things could use it as well. also notable is that since those things happen on the second consecutive attempt, it'd make prediction for the opponent a bit easier - who wouldn't go for the paralysis? you can just switch off to a ghost or water-immune or whatever. plus you would also anticipate literally all of that - want conkeldurr to get burned? bait a scald. it's just like adding layers and layers of mindgames, just because things can only happen on the second consecutive use. ;-;

champagnepapi June 28th, 2011 7:08 PM

Honestly, I never found moves like Scald to be hax that was supposed to happen. Even with a 30% rate of a status condition, it's annoying when Jellicent try and spam Scald at Ferrothorn until it gets a burn. I'd rather that gets removed. It will be relieving to see moves like Stone Edge hit, however. Instead of biting your nails every time you choose to use them.

spartan127 June 28th, 2011 7:15 PM

has anyone battled on that yet? does it affect gameplay that much really??

also did my avatar work? lol

Vrai June 28th, 2011 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karpman (Post 6718372)
Honestly, I never found moves like Scald to be hax that was supposed to happen. Even with a 30% rate of a status condition, it's annoying when Jellicent try and spam Scald at Ferrothorn until it gets a burn. I'd rather that gets removed. It will be relieving to see moves like Stone Edge hit, however. Instead of biting your nails every time you choose to use them.

Taunt Jellicent wins against Ferrothorn if it catches it with Will-o-Wisp, actually. I've honestly only lost Jellicent to Ferro if Will-o-Wisp misses multiple times in a row or if they crit me multiple times in a row. ;-; But yeah, Stone Edge will definitely see a lot more usage on everything that can use it well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 6718382)
Here's the thing though: The more and more that I think about paralysis, the more that I think that it doesn't really matter anymore. The reason that I believe so, is that there are mostly slow pokemon like t-tar, jellicent, your standard OU Pokemon and whatever are slow this generation(with the exception of Lucario, the genies and I think the musketeers and some others I think), so thats why I'm questioning the actual reliability of thunderwave. You'd really have to rely on luck more often than not for it to actually paralyze your opponent so you would get a free turn to do whatever, pretty much.

In this ladder, I would find burn or even sleep to be more highly effective. Things like Conkeldurr? Put him to sleep, it's better than giving him anything else with what, a 1.5x boots with guts(at least, I believe it's that)?

What I'm basically trying to say is that, this ladder is just asking for nothing but status and stall matches, possibly. Offensive could be used to a good extent, but a lot of offensive teams rely on 120 BP moves, and having a Draco Meteor on every single pokemon in your team is going to get old eventually, and most likely predictable. You would have to hit and run everytime, or just run a Pokemon @ White herb for an effective sweep or something.

Actually, I totally forgot that full paralysis wouldn't happen on this ladder. The only purpose would be to slow everything down anyway...... and I mean, slowing things down is nice but it's just not the same if you don't get the chance to have free turns like you do with paralysis now. I don't think we'd see anything like Body Slam, anyway. It's just that you're not getting enough out of it - if you want guaranteed paralysis, use Thunder Wave which does the same thing on the first turn. With Conk, I'd rather just go for the KO anyway. :x

I think it's asking for a lot of prediction and very very good teambuilding. You'll have to be very effective with your team choices to have any kind of relative success in this kind of metagame - and, it does remove luck. You have to out-skill the other person to win. :x

Ooka June 28th, 2011 7:38 PM

The more you guys talk about it the better it sounds. So is the server up already? Like, can I play? lol, I'm excited. A whole new metagame with the same Pokemon, awesome.

Vrai June 28th, 2011 7:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 6718419)
Well for me, I think it would rather be more difficult teambuilding rather than "good". I'm not saying it would be bad in any way, but it would be very...different to what we're usually accustomed to. For me, prediction is always imperative whether it's the current ladder or the hax-free ladder, so that part hasn't changed(and most likely wont).

I can certain expect to see a lot of Lum Berry use though, don't you think?

That's what I meant, though my usage of the word "good" was more inclined to... well, that a team has to be built very effectively and purposefully to be successful, where sometimes you can get away with imperfect teams on the regular ladder. I was just trying to say that I think prediction will be taken to whole new heights and for a lot of different reasons, as compared to the usual ladder - there are lots of new situational things that really have a huge impact on prediction in general, imo.

I actually don't imagine a lot of status abuse. Sure, W-o-W hits now, but aside from that there isn't that much reason to use status imho, especially since the sleep counter only lasts two turns and never resets, as well as freeze being nonexistant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooka (Post 6718423)
The more you guys talk about it the better it sounds. So is the server up already? Like, can I play? lol, I'm excited. A whole new metagame with the same Pokemon, awesome.

I believe it is, though you might want to read through the thread to find out. I'm not sure I'd be up for it though - I've still gotta get better at our current metagame. ;-;

Spinosaurus June 29th, 2011 4:32 AM

I...I don't know about the new metagame. Sure some Pokemon like Terrakion would certainly appreciate Stone Edge NOT MISSING but it isn't really bad at all when it does, even if it does cost you the game. Though I always complain about hax and how much I hate it, it doesn't really feel like it's same game without it. It's always tense when you have to rely on a move that misses every time, biting your nail waiting for your opponent and then it hits/misses. Yeah, I like that. I also like relying on hax with Jirachi, or being careful of getting haxed. I only hate losing and being haxed from a noob, but when it's against someone good, I think it only adds to the intensity to the match, which is good.
It's really like Mario Kart Wii. I always complained about the hax there (and it's really BS) but when I tried playing without items it was just...not fun anymore.
I might try it and see if it's better, but for now I'm sticking with the current metagame.

champagnepapi June 29th, 2011 12:50 PM

Just a tip, but if you ever fight a good battler, they're guaranteed to have Jirachi on their team. Otherwise they lose to Latios and Reuniclus, two extremely broken Pokemon who have yet to be banned since Smogon enjoys abusing them and using them both as last ditch efforts when their teams have been completely dismantled.

Vrai June 29th, 2011 2:26 PM

Hello ladies. Look at your teams. Now back to mine. Now back at your teams. Now back to mine. Sadly, your teams aren't mine. But if you stopped guessing randomly about synergy and what worked together, maybe your teams could have a chance at being as awesome as mine. Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're rapidly shooting up the ladder with a team less suckish than your old one. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's a Cloyster with a synergy tool. Look again. The tool is now ...still the same tool. Anything is possible when you use a neat synergy tool to help you with your teams instead of suckishly guessing. I'm on a Keldeo. do-doo doot dee doot do dah dooo

http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/f7/Spr_5b_091_s.png

in case you did not understand that (which i wouldn't put it past you guys), i found a really cool/useful synergy-relevant tool that i think would be awesome when you're trying to put a team together. click on the cloyster to use it. :)

.Aero June 29th, 2011 2:33 PM

Cute for type synergy, but I look past that in most cases and try to find synergy through what threatens whatever sweeper I'm using (which isn't generally that hard to find out...). Neat nonetheless. Could be useful for beginners when they're just starting out. :]

Vrai June 30th, 2011 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 6720158)
Is it a coincidence that both of them(latios and Reuniclus) just so happen to lose to Excadrill in Sanstorm? Not to mention possible DD users. There's only so many hits Reuniclus can take, yknow.

Before it uses Recover. :x Also, Reuniclus used Trick Room as you switched in Excadrill - there goes your speed advantage. D;

In any case, I believe if you were to compare the two, Reuniclus is the one with no checks and thus is more broken.

Vrai June 30th, 2011 2:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 6720238)
383 Atk vs 251 Def & 424 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 310 (61.79% - 73.11%)

^ This would be the result of a Focus Blast from +0 Reuniclus. Quite bad, but I think it's really circumstantial at this point. I mean, take a look at some other things, too:

574 Atk vs 251 Def & 424 HP (120 Base Power): 394 - 464 (92.92% - 109.43%)

^ This is +1 CM Reuniclus. In that case, of course Excadrill would be toasted, but...if Excadrill doesn't get switched into Reuniclus immediately, and sets up an SD on a Pokemon beforehand...this would be what an SD Earthquake would just about do:

810 Atk vs 273 Def & 424 HP (100 Base Power): 319 - 376 (75.24% - 88.68%)

So yeah, it could really all depend, etc. .___.

I don't know where you got those defenses from but you're definitely not using Excadrill's. :x

383 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (120 Base Power): 516 - 608 (142.54% - 167.96%)

That's a LO Trick Room Focus Blast.

287 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (120 Base Power): 386 - 456 (106.63% - 125.97%)

That's a +0 CM Reuniclus Focus Blast.

430 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (70 Base Power): 340 - 400 (93.92% - 110.50%)

That's a +1 CM Reuniclus HP Fighting. If you'll notice, Excadrill doesn't have that much of a chance to take a hit. ;x

champagnepapi June 30th, 2011 4:13 AM

Adamant +0 Excadrill does 40.09%->47.64 on CM Reuniclus with X-Scissor and 80.19%->94.81 at +2. With Earthquake, it does 37.74%->44.58% at +0 and 75.24->88.68 with a +2 Earthquake.

The fact that a Pokemon with an attack stat of 405 3HKO's it at +0 shows it's far too broken defensively, thus leading it to an uninterrupted sweep.


Also, new topic:

What are the CBC Community's thoughts on the return of User Pokedra?

.Aero June 30th, 2011 9:45 AM

I, for one, am excited about Pokedra coming back. He was a good battler back in the days and I'm excited to see him in the new generation!

Also, yeah, Excadrill's defenses aren't the best, so it won't be taking any Focus Blasts from a base 125 special attack. Reuniclus is insanely annoying to fight because of Magic Guard, recover on the CM set, and trick room to mess with your fast pokemon. It's like a +6 speed boost for himself because you don't even have to make other pokemon on your team get an advantage from Trick Room. He's so bulky and powerful that he only needs it for himself. Kinda says something if you ask me. :x

Lalapizzame June 30th, 2011 12:09 PM

I don't mind Pokedra's company. While I do admit to treating dear Pokedra badly, I think the times have changed, and we have changed with the times. He has already had experience with competitive battling, which will be of great benefit with regards to returning to a competitive scenario with Gen V. Pokedra knows our competitive regulars / hermit community, so he'll be more comfortable with us (people tend to be nervous or less open around people they don't know). I am confident that this community, including myself, has gone past openly boasting hostility towards members, and realizes the vice inherent in such treatment, not least of all when we're concentrating large amounts of energy and effort into encouraging activity, and trying to open the floodgates (in a good way) for new players.

Vrai June 30th, 2011 8:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 6721339)
166? I was using Max def excadrill ok. ):< which is what i thought i was supposed to do.

The thing is, people don't use max special defense Excadrill. XDD

Perriechu June 30th, 2011 10:59 PM

I'ma butt in and say that the Synergy tool Vrai found is amazing! :D

Zeffy July 1st, 2011 5:17 AM

What synergy tool? And what's this thing about max defense Excadrill? xD

Vrai July 1st, 2011 5:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonomega (Post 6721715)
I'ma but in and say that the Synergy tool Vrai found is amazing! :D

SOMEONE APPRECIATES ME :3 and yes, yes it is. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeffy (Post 6721868)
What synergy tool? And what's this thing about max defense Excadrill? xD

This!

Zeffy July 1st, 2011 5:50 AM

Oh I see. Well, I should put that into good use when the time comes. That is, when I think of what team I should build.

Perriechu July 1st, 2011 7:04 AM

I think I need to build a new team, I've just seen Pokedra's SmashPass team, I remember I had one of them but I didn't put enough effort into it to use it effectively, I may start building a SmashPass team.

I'm gonna use Huntail! <3 Gorebyss can suck it.

Huntail's base stats; 55 | 104 | 105 | 94 | 75 | 52
Gorebyss' base stats; 55 | 84 | 105 | 114 | 75 | 52

Gorebyss is superior, but I always find trouble getting a Physical Pokemon onto a SmashPass team. Huntail needs some lovin'

Vrai July 1st, 2011 9:21 AM

Gorebyss is just the superior Smashpasser because it has the higher singular stat to attack with if need be. Huntail would need to go mixed to abuse his stats and that detracts from its bulk. :(

.Aero July 1st, 2011 10:37 AM

Both are no match for Amooonguss, so I mean, what's the point? Huntail just dies faster. ;]

Also, have any of you actually tried Amoonguss in the current metagame? It's surprisingly good and it seems a lot of people just overlook it (most likely because of Ferrothorn for grass), but his fighting resistance is extremely handy and he can survive a lot of things most people wouldn't expect (I think he survives Specs D-Meteor from Latios, but I dunno if that actually happened or was a dream).

Just a little tip for future team building: "Worried about losing to smash pass? Use Amoonguss." I put him on my team specifically for that, but to be honest, he does much more. I'm thoroughly surprised by his performance.

Ooka July 1st, 2011 10:42 AM

Just for fun I threw a team together with both Gorebyss and Huntail. I'd just pass the Shell Smash to the next one while both screens were still up, then do it again. Although it seems to be glitched (Sometimes my special attack would still end up +2, or my defenses would both still end up -1 even with the White Herb on both of them), when it worked, it was an easy 5-0 (Because my Uxie always uses Memento). Also, Dragonite > Garchomp as SmashPass recipient.

Btw I tried the no luck server, and honestly, I don't think it made enough of a difference to be that fun really. Although I only battled two people and didn't build another team for it, just used a previous one.

And yeah Aero, I use it on a full stall team I made, Chansey / Ferrothorn / Jellicent / Torkoal / Amoonguss / Bronzong. He's definitely a great team member, although I don't really ever do anything with him besides take hits.


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