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avengeraziel September 18th, 2011 3:16 AM

PC Wiki
 
I think it would be a great idea, and has multiple applications for all of the sub forums on pc. I would have a longer and more robust argument, but my first thread proposal about this was rejected, and any mention of this on other threads is considered off-topic, even on help threads, which defys intelligent discourse.

Mew~ September 18th, 2011 3:21 AM

I'm pretty sure there either was, or still is for moderators. An old mod had a print screen somewhere. :x

It's probably gone now though.

Vrai September 18th, 2011 3:21 AM

I would think that if your first thread was rejected and you wanted to prove to people that it was an idea worth considering you would add extra information rather than just post a few sentences and say "oh I would give more information but..." Why not give more information so maybe we have more reason to agree with you? :<

Anyway I personally don't think we need a wiki. PC is self-sufficient in its forums and almost anything I can imagine we'd need to put into a wiki can be covered within the forums. It seems like a big effort for little gain.

Ivysaur September 18th, 2011 3:48 AM

We had a project to start one, but it was left after some member entered it and vandalized the beta pages, and after the clean-up it was left as too much effort for all the good it could bring.

Although there have been a couple of attempts to restart it, but... as you can see, they didn't go too far.

avengeraziel September 18th, 2011 5:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vrai (Post 6853548)
I would think that if your first thread was rejected and you wanted to prove to people that it was an idea worth considering you would add extra information rather than just post a few sentences and say "oh I would give more information but..." Why not give more information so maybe we have more reason to agree with you? :<

Anyway I personally don't think we need a wiki. PC is self-sufficient in its forums and almost anything I can imagine we'd need to put into a wiki can be covered within the forums. It seems like a big effort for little gain.

I will acquiesce your point on adding more information, and give the flimsy excuse that my original post was both in irritation, and on my phone, where it is hard to make a truly strong argument. As for my reasoning, i shall make my points here:

1. Clear, concise articles on information.
[My examples will do with the emulation and game development subforums, as that's where i spend most of my time on here and consider the notion of a wiki to be truly indispensable, but i believe that other parts of this site would/could find a use for one, if they so see fit.]

Tutorial threads, program threads, and help threads make up the majority of the subforums, and are cluttered with flame wars, questions left unanswered or answered elsewhere (and in rare occasions, better left unasked), off topic comments, and posts that are unneeded when trying to research and gather information (ie "when is the new beta?", "i luv this hack yay"). While i am biased some against such posts, i realize that in a forum, they are next to necessary. However in a wiki they are as i put them: unneeded, and clutter. A wiki would be a place for clear tutorials and the results of research, and none of the 20 pages of of bickering and trial and error that users have to sift through to get to the good information. Not to mention most wiki programs have discussion pages built in, so every page has its own pseudo-thread to discuss these things.

2. Better Organization
Instead of 8-9 sub-forums for Emulation, and 4-5 for game development, i foresee them each having two, maybe three tops. Things like help threads would become almost a thing of the past, as well as tutorials, toolbox, and the hack showcase, if not more. Threads like research and development would be the main part of the forum, instead of threads like "i can't get my emulator to work, help!" cause there'd be a wiki page on troubleshooting your emulator. bam, done, lets move on to a relevant topic.

the wiki could provide all the functionality of these subforums, again, without the need to sift through pages and pages of user opinion and clashes. Concise articles, information pages, and troubleshooting pages would render nearly half of these forums obsolete, which from the perpesective of someone trying to create their own hack, is a godsend. They could actually get the information they need, and maybe even be able to see where the community is lacking in critical information and be able to lend a helping hand in these areas, instead of being drowned in the quagmire of endless threads of half-info, and incomplete research.

This is where we would see little effort being put in, because some (if not the majority of) info can be copy and pasted, forgoing the user comments and sidebars inbetween the "meat" of the subject, and users with more info can add their piece as they are needed to, and the community at large would see a monumental, almost staggering amount of gain for this.

if a PC wiki is a moderator-only feature, what is its purpose?

If vandalism is a concern, let only people who have created programs and who run teams and/or have hack threads be able to edit pages. In this way, the help thread could still have a place in the forum, but would be more focused on correcting emulator problems than user errors.

Snorelacks September 18th, 2011 6:01 AM

I agree with Vrai. It might be a good idea... if we wanted to compete with things like Bulbapedia. I think it might even be considered offensive to the Pokemon wikis that have been around for awhile.

avengeraziel September 18th, 2011 6:12 AM

How would this be compete with bulbapedia? They purposefully steer clear of giving information on hacking and, and according to google, there are no Pokemon modding wikis. so who would we be offending?

Alley Cat September 18th, 2011 7:43 AM

I like this idea, actually. I don't understand how it would be insulting to anyone, we have just as much right to start one as bulbapedia and what not.

Went mentioned what happened last time: Solution, leave it to a group of staff & members to get it up and running. Like people who are for this idea, so they'll be dedicated and get it done.

Oryx September 18th, 2011 8:15 AM

I wouldn't call it a PC wiki, but a hack wiki or a fangame wiki. The problem is, most hacks afaik get abandoned partway through, so the wiki will be really unfinished and people will still be confused.

avengeraziel September 18th, 2011 8:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6853803)
I wouldn't call it a PC wiki, but a hack wiki or a fangame wiki. The problem is, most hacks afaik get abandoned partway through, so the wiki will be really unfinished and people will still be confused.

the wiki isn't necessarily going to be created to replace the showcase, just will have the ability to.

the wiki's main focus imho (at least for the hack part of the wiki, because the wiki as a whole doesn't have to be about just hacking), is to give tutorials and resources in a clear, concise way, that will hopefully foster a new line of completed hacks, and may result in the reviving of some dead hacks.

articles like: lists of default offsets, unlz deepscans, specific codes; these examples have dedicated threads for them, but they are a jumble and mess to read through when the reader only wants the info the thread says it provides, and none of the fluff.

the wiki, in its nature, would be in a state of unfinished-ness, because we do not have all the resources and info to hack to date, just 65-75% of it, i would think, not to mention information on added features/mods such as DNS and the 4th gen stat split in 3rd gen.
but this state wouldn't necessarily confuse people, but i think would give them a more solid footing on which to further our community knowledge and better the quality of any new hack they would want to create.

Oryx September 18th, 2011 8:46 AM

I would prefer if the wiki was just one about hacks and fangames. We really don't have anything else to offer that Bulbapedia doesn't have.

And as far as unfinished, you didn't understand what I was saying. Of course every wiki is 'unfinished', but I didn't mean that. I meant that the hacks themselves would be unfinished, people would spend all this time making pages for them and then the makers would give up. If you're not talking about fangames at all, and just hacking resources, then I would see it differently.

avengeraziel September 18th, 2011 8:57 AM

The main focus would def be resources, not showcasing fangames, although that could be part of it, with a page with a list of hacks or something.

As for other things, maybe a PC pokedex with fakemon only or something. I agree in the way Ive presented this, this is mainly a resource wiki, but I wouldn't object if someone else could find another use for it as well.

Alley Cat September 18th, 2011 9:38 AM

A resource page isn't a bad idea. It can also include indvidual pages containing info about finished and popular hacks(Shiny Gold) or something.

avengeraziel September 18th, 2011 10:04 AM

The resource pages would be split up depending on base rom (except for universal programs and multirom solutions), narrowing the focus of information and each resource page, as well as each hack being listed under it's rom base, but I don't know if each hack listed (unless 100% finished) should link to anything but it's thread, unless the creator(s) created a wiki page to add more info on their hack, such as tips, an extensive list of what they changed and how, or even a walkthrough if they wanted (yes that can take the fun out of it, but it's not like they don't have walkthroughs for the original games). Creators don't have to share everything, but it would help others.

It wouldn't be for the general John and jane smith coming to PC to look at hack pages, but an insiders look on the nuts and bolts of everything, to get a better handle on making their own.

Alley Cat September 18th, 2011 10:24 AM

to me, it seems more like what people want is just a really nice index or table of content type thing so they don't have to be bothered to find what they want. ;s

edit: and that blog idea would be bad, because blogs are a supporter perk, or something given to someone at the discretion of a staff member, so someone who actually has something to bring to this community through blogs. giving everyone a blog would defeat the purpose of it being a supporter perk.

avengeraziel September 18th, 2011 10:59 AM

Teamfail: exactly, I don't think it has to be limited to hacks or limited at all really.

Alleycat: this isn't a 'I wanna be lazy' feature, this is a feature so that users actually *can* find what they are looking for without spending twenty minutes going through asinine posts and using a search feature that doesn't entirely work. You know, so that hackers can get to hacking, instead of hanging out on pc trying to figure out what stuff is.

Why should I have to go out of my way and spend too much time to find snippets of useful information when supposedly this website, and the emulation forum in specific, is meant to help and inform? A forum is for conversations and a wiki is for gathering and posting information in a way that is actually useful, otherwise Wikipedia would be a giant forum too.

I do agree with the blog thing though, that would be too much.

Nick September 18th, 2011 12:23 PM

I don't have a problem with trying the wiki out again. I had completely forgotten about it when we were working on it before and filling it up with information about PC, though, and I'm quite sure I wouldn't actually use it. I think opening it up to primarily be a resource for hackers would be an excellent ideas. Perhaps we could even get a few stand-out ROM hacking members to help us develop the pages. I'm sure many would find it very helpful.

Melody September 18th, 2011 12:39 PM

I have 3 major problems with this idea
  • PC is not Smogon
  • PC is not Bulbagarden
  • PC is not Serebii

In my honest opinion, what makes PC stand out above all the rest is that it does not try to dictate how the fandom operates, acts or even hacks. In fact the charm point about PC is the fact that even the most green and wet behind the ears ROM hackers can come here and try their ideas. Without pressure. Without being given more than the basic knowledge one needs to ROM hack. PC's wealth of support and information is in it's forum and it should always stay that way. Putting everything out there on a Wiki would be difficult, and it would require a LOT more staff oversight than most staff members here would think, and a Wiki Staff would need to be appointed and so on.

So why not just K.I.S.S and be done with it?

The biggest problem with a Wiki which is a fixed source of information is opposition of change once it's complete. Editors defend their work rabidly, and if the initial main contributors are given Admin or Stewardship rights on the Wiki, you can forget that thing ever evolving with information the way a forum can.

Lastly we all know that "If you build it they will come" is not true. If our newbies won't even read a sticky thread, what makes you think a Wiki would be read?

A General Pokemon wiki from PC will just look like a pathetic attempt to rival places like Serebii, Smogon and Bulbapedia, and therefore our "Wiki" would be limited to ROM hacking topics and that's just not enough info for a wiki in my opinion.

champagnepapi September 18th, 2011 2:29 PM

I hope this is an appropriate time/place to bring it up, but was the Competitive Wiki abolished? It'd be nice if that project could see the light of day, I always thought it had the potential to go somewhere. A hacking Wiki sounds fine, though, since PC is pretty much the epicenter of Rom Hacking.

Winneon September 18th, 2011 2:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6854068)
I don't have a problem with trying the wiki out again. I had completely forgotten about it when we were working on it before and filling it up with information about PC, though, and I'm quite sure I wouldn't actually use it. I think opening it up to primarily be a resource for hackers would be an excellent ideas. Perhaps we could even get a few stand-out ROM hacking members to help us develop the pages. I'm sure many would find it very helpful.

I agree with this. Making a wiki might be helpful for many members, either member of PC or not. It could provide information about PC as well as Pokemon and a few other subjects, like everyone said, hacking and fan-games. I would volunteer to make the wiki members of PC agree.:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6854095)
I have 3 major problems with this idea
  • PC is not Smogon
  • PC is not Bulbagarden
  • PC is not Serebii

In my honest opinion, what makes PC stand out above all the rest is that it does not try to dictate how the fandom operates, acts or even hacks. In fact the charm point about PC is the fact that even the most green and wet behind the ears ROM hackers can come here and try their ideas. Without pressure. Without being given more than the basic knowledge one needs to ROM hack. PC's wealth of support and information is in it's forum and it should always stay that way. Putting everything out there on a Wiki would be difficult, and it would require a LOT more staff oversight than most staff members here would think, and a Wiki Staff would need to be appointed and so on.

So why not just K.I.S.S and be done with it?

The biggest problem with a Wiki which is a fixed source of information is opposition of change once it's complete. Editors defend their work rabidly, and if the initial main contributors are given Admin or Stewardship rights on the Wiki, you can forget that thing ever evolving with information the way a forum can.

Lastly we all know that "If you build it they will come" is not true. If our newbies won't even read a sticky thread, what makes you think a Wiki would be read?

A General Pokemon wiki from PC will just look like a pathetic attempt to rival places like Serebii, Smogon and Bulbapedia, and therefore our "Wiki" would be limited to ROM hacking topics and that's just not enough info for a wiki in my opinion.

I don't think a wiki should be competition between PC, Bulbapedia, and Serebii, but a helpful resource that goes along with Serebii and Bulbapedia. As long as we keep it a resource and not some competition, it should be fine for everyone.:)

Nick September 18th, 2011 2:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6854095)
  • PC is not Smogon
  • PC is not Bulbagarden
  • PC is not Serebii

Really? I could have sworn PC was all those things, last I checked. This is a revelation and I feel the press must be notified immediately.

avengeraziel September 20th, 2011 3:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6854095)
I have 3 major problems with this idea
  • PC is not Smogon
  • PC is not Bulbagarden
  • PC is not Serebii


No one is trying to make PC into any of these websites. PC's forums will always be the foremost feature of PC, seeing as it is a COMMUNITY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6854095)


In my honest opinion, what makes PC stand out above all the rest is that it does not try to dictate how the fandom operates, acts or even hacks. In fact the charm point about PC is the fact that even the most green and wet behind the ears ROM hackers can come here and try their ideas. Without pressure. Without being given more than the basic knowledge one needs to ROM hack. PC's wealth of support and information is in it's forum and it should always stay that way. Putting everything out there on a Wiki would be difficult, and it would require a LOT more staff oversight than most staff members here would think, and a Wiki Staff would need to be appointed and so on.

How would a clear, enclycopedic list of resources and tutorials dictate how the fandom operates or acts? and do you seriously think that every person has their own "way" of hacking? That's absurd. Hacking is dealing with hex codes and the myriad of programs that this community has produced, and those only do so much, and there's only one or two ways to do something to get a desired result. this wiki would show the best ways to do these things, so that hackers and modders (ESPECIALLY the green and wet behind the ears ones) could stop sweating the small stuff and get to the stuff that hopefully makes their hack stand out: the storyline (as well as any 'ideas' or features they figure out and add to their rom and/or the wiki). This idea would literally eliminate any pressure that new hackers feel, because they would have a real guide to go by for their ideas and hacks. And hackers, especially new ones, want more than the bare basics if they hope to learn quickly how to build innovative, quality hacks
I don't want to speak for the moderators for the Emulation sub-forum, but I would be happier moderating for a wiki than a thread because its a much easier beast to regulate. PC's wealth of support will most likely stay in the forum even after the creation of the wiki, but the info would be more streamlined and much more navigable in a wiki than any thread could hope to be. Seeing as the Emulation sub-forum has only two mods (who do an excellent job), I don't see why the wiki would need more than two objective moderators to help in that endeavor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6854095)


So why not just K.I.S.S and be done with it?

How is a wiki NOT simple? As long as there are facts to back up any information or claims, a wiki is as simple as it gets. Even most wiki syntax is WYSIWYG. Do you consider Wikipedia's information portal to be infinitely complex?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6854095)


The biggest problem with a Wiki which is a fixed source of information is opposition of change once it's complete. Editors defend their work rabidly, and if the initial main contributors are given Admin or Stewardship rights on the Wiki, you can forget that thing ever evolving with information the way a forum can.

Opposition of change is what kills forums too, including people against any change in their community because they think everyone else on their forums is too lazy/stupid to recognize the import of a wiki in being a critical resource in helping newbies learn how to compete with our big hitters on the PC forums.
Editors could/would only defend their work to the point of it being correct. If it is not, no amount of complaining is going to make it so, and that's the only concern of a wiki: facts, regardless of who first proposes them. Information is empirical, and only empirical data is worthy of wiki inclusion. Again, the whole point of a wiki: to separate the opinions from fact, to be a clear, concise information gateway. That is the rule of thumb that brought wikis into prominence in the first place. Why does a wiki need to evolve like a forum can? A forum is a glorified conversation, and a wiki is a glorified textbook: why does a wiki need to emulate a forum in any way?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6854095)


Lastly we all know that "If you build it they will come" is not true. If our newbies won't even read a sticky thread, what makes you think a Wiki would be read?

A General Pokemon wiki from PC will just look like a pathetic attempt to rival places like Serebii, Smogon and Bulbapedia, and therefore our "Wiki" would be limited to ROM hacking topics and that's just not enough info for a wiki in my opinion.

'If you build it they will come is absolutely true' in this case, and the creation of PC in the first place is the prime example. As the epicenter of rom hacking, as Karpman stated, PC has an obligation to those hackers to give them the resources they want and need to better supply them with quality help, unless it is the goal of PC to rid itself of rom hackers entirely.
And who says newbies don't read sticky threads? Do you have that much contempt for your perceived 'stupidity' of other users to think that a sticky thread goes unread by all, and how could you be so naive to think that a sticky thread is the end-all be-all of information? Like I said in an earlier post, if that was the case, all wikis would be forums. I know the wiki would be read because it is all the information, with none of the banality. Would anyone ever read a textbook again if the authors were constantly fighting within its pages, truncated by the occasional fact? It would become obsolete immediately, except for its entertainment value, which I'm pretty sure a textbook, or any body of information, isn't going for.

A general pokemon wiki would be a pathetic attempt to rival these other websites, but no one has proposed we do that. We have had three main ideas for the use of the wiki which has nothing to do with these websites, and of which these other websites steadfastly refuse to cater to:

1. Rom hacking resource
2. Fakemon Pokedex
3. Competitive Battling Community.

If that's not enough of a reason to create a wiki to cater to an unmet need, then what is?

Oryx September 20th, 2011 5:06 AM

In addition Pachy, I don't think this suggestion is directed at the people that don't read stickies. While you claim that "newbies don't read stickies", you know that's not true in every case. Besides, this suggestion isn't for newbies who don't read stickies. It's to help newbies that want an easy-to-navigate source of information for whatever they need.

The more avenge expands on this, the more I like the idea. I'm still wary of expanding it beyond the realm of hacking, but I could definitely see the use of a wiki for that.

Zeffy September 20th, 2011 5:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avengeraziel (Post 6856160)
1. Rom hacking resource
2. Fakemon Pokedex
3. Competitive Battling Community.

If that's not enough of a reason to create a wiki to cater to an unmet need, then what is?

1. There is a PC ROM hacking wiki, I believe. Although, I might be wrong. However, seeing that most people who joins PC are in for the hacks, then, I believe, we could have one. The possible problem is, though, is that if someone decides to completely ban the edit of any Pokemon ROMs, which would probably end up in a lower hacking population.

2. Honestly, I don't see why PC needs a Fakedex. It isn't something as important as an RH wiki or a competitive battling wiki, but it is something worthwhile as an event.

3. I've seen a PC competitive battling wiki, even trying to write up something for Cofagrigus in it. I don't think it has been released to the public yet though. It was Jake who was the mastermind of this, I believe.

avengeraziel September 21st, 2011 10:00 AM

I added a poll to this thread, and in my haste, i totally put the wrong word. i meant addition, not edition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6856243)

The more avenge expands on this, the more I like the idea. I'm still wary of expanding it beyond the realm of hacking, but I could definitely see the use of a wiki for that.

I appreciate the support Toujours, and anybody else's support that thinks this is a good idea. I feel this would strongly re-catalyze the hack community we have here. I would also be quite happy to help in any way to make this become a reality.

I ask that anyone interested (or against) spread the word and vote in the poll so we can have a more accurate depiction of the user populace's feelings on this.

Hopefully if we get enough people on board, and enough moderators willing to support this, we could make this an actual thing.

Zeffy:
1. Seeing from the already posted responses, I really don't think this is the case, but I am striving to make it such. And if PC bans rom hacking on here, I think it would be pretty detrimental to the community at large. If Nintendo banned it, that would be a travesty. But I think Nintendo wouldn't do that because a wiki was started, seeing as the forums for rom hacking are huge, and they've been neutral about that, as long as we don't sell rom hacks.

2. To be frankly honest, and I may get backlash because of this, I don't necessarily like fakemon, and generally don't play hacks that have them, but seeing the vast multitude of fakemon that users have created, I would assume they would like a bulbapedia-esque outlet to host them, so they could make public pokedex entries for them, and have attached files for others to be able to incorporate them, given permission of course. And I only say bulbapedia-esque in this case, because bulbapedia is the meta-pokedex to end all pokedexes. This of course would not tread on bulbapedia's shoes, because it would be only pokemon that are not Nintendo properties or copyrighted, which is bulbapedia's territory.

Maybe people could even make pages for their regions, separate from their rom hack pages? It would help others understand in-hack regions better, and could even result in a PC region (possibly?) or an alt-universe/timeline that is congruent between different users hacks? I'm just shooting off the top of my head, but I think some people would get a kick out of it, and maybe even allow PC users have more to congregate and share ideas for. This is what i mean about the wiki not being necessarily limited, and multitudes of users and sub-forums being able to get in on the fun.

3. If this is so, great! Can we get a sample or screenshot of this? Maybe to help others visualize what we are talking about better.


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