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Alex October 24th, 2011 1:31 PM

The Problem With OC
 
First I'd like to state that I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, especially not LiveWire's, and I commend his work in trying to clean up and straighten out Other Chat. However I think there's a real problem with the forum, and it's been around since I've joined PC. Other Chat is one forum that encompasses any and all discussion that doesn't pertain to Pokemon, or user-generated material. That leaves a ton of topics.

Instead of trying to cut down on redundancy threads and the sheer amount of topics in the forum itself by locking them and warning members, I think the threads need to be categorized in terms of topics. I've noticed a few dominating topics in the forum and suggest we break OC into numerous subforums to regulate the flow of topics and separate them.

The subforums I've considered are "American Politics & Issues," "International Politics & Issues," "LGBT Discussion" and "Philosophical Discussion."

So, just to put things into perspective, Zet's "lol u mad republicans?" thread or Igiko's Web discussions on abortion thread would fit into American Politics & Issues. Suicune™'s "Huge Eruption on the way?" or LiveWire's Global Warming thread would be placed into International Politics & Issues. LGBT Discussion would be home to the Jamie Hubley thread as well as the late Tim Horton's thread. Philosophical Discussion would encompass anything from the "Your View of God" thread by dinosaurodon to Toujours' new "Will Humans Evolve Further?" thread.

And the way I see it, anything that doesn't quite fit under any of these categories can stay within Other Chat's general chat forum, which would be home to our beloved DCC and, for example, FreakyLocz's "Woman Sues Cap'n Crunch" thread.

While I'm aware that this would be a radical expansion of our humble OC forum, consider how many subforums some of the most frequented boards on PC have. Emulation is a powerhouse with eight subforums to itself. Second in line are a draw between Game Development, and the Art Gallery with four subforums to themselves. With my suggestion to Other Chat, it would have a total of five forums, including Celebrations. I don't think that's much out of the norm.

If there are any that disagree with my suggested expansion of Other Chat, please do not hesitate to voice your opinion. I realize I'm stepping into Administrative decisions here but I figured I'd pitch a proposition.

Sydian October 24th, 2011 1:41 PM

I just wanted to voice my agreement on this. Yeah, it'd be a lot of subforums, but it wouldn't be much different than it is now, in terms of threads and activity. It'd just be cleaner and more organized, the way I see it. That and it might help define the line of what goes in OVP and what goes in OC...even the difference between C&T and C&M and OC too, since those seem to be getting mixed up, due to certain news about the former two I mentioned. Point is, I agree with this.

Oryx October 24th, 2011 1:43 PM

I like this idea but tbh I wouldn't think an entire forum just for LGBT discussion would be warranted. While PC does have a rather large LGBT community, if you look back on the threads involving it in OC, even including locked threads there are 5-6 on the first two pages. Considering each page is 50 threads, I'm back to the beginning of September on last post and not even 1/10 of the way through one page of a forum.

Similarly, there are 20-25 (depending on how you count some of the threads) threads on the first two pages related to American politics. I would combine the international one with the American one to make one larger one, because while political threads do make up a large portion of OC, when you actually crunch the numbers it's not too huge. I always thought there should just be a "recent news discussion" subforum tbh. :x

Sydian October 24th, 2011 1:48 PM

Then perhaps instead of LGBT, there can be the subforums "Politics", "Social Issues", and "Philosophical", and the adorable Celebrations ofc. Social Issues would be the news threads on the things like a major suicide because of x thing that happened to this person, exotic animals on the loose in Ohio, restaurants turning so and so down because of x thing they are/did. Things like that that are getting cracked down on so hard lately.

Nihilego October 24th, 2011 1:50 PM

I'm also gonna say that I agree with this. I really like OC but I find it kinda difficult to post in sometimes, mainly because of how there are threads for everything everywhere. It'd be really nice to just settle into a single subforum, in this case it'd probably be Philosophical Discussion for me, rather than digging through everything. I also think that, as this would set out some really clear boundaries for where to post stuff, it could generate more activity since people would be more confident posting threads probably. I think places like Emulation, for example, have shown that having a large number of subforums for fairly specific things can definitely work.

Oryx October 24th, 2011 1:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sydian (Post 6902432)
Then perhaps instead of LGBT, there can be the subforums "Politics", "Social Issues", and "Philosophical", and the adorable Celebrations ofc. Social Issues would be the news threads on the things like a major suicide because of x thing that happened to this person, exotic animals on the loose in Ohio, restaurants turning so and so down because of x thing they are/did. Things like that that are getting cracked down on so hard lately.

I like that a lot! This do this right here please.

Morkula October 24th, 2011 2:06 PM

Or we could just let OC be a really active general discussion forum like it's meant to be rather than splitting it off into a bunch of inactive subforums?

Melody October 24th, 2011 2:09 PM

I'd think all the threads about LGBT issues and such would go under "Social issues" anyway, if it didn't go under "Political issues".


Now, to be the little raincloud, I don't believe that OC is quite that big yet. Surely, OC has flourished under Live, I give that much. But I do not believe it has grown so miserably furry, and such sub-forums would simply serve to confuse newcomers. K.I.S.S. most definitely applies here.

Furthermore, I believe that if OC needs any new subforum it should simply be a 'Debates' forum. For all of the above threads which tend to get hot and bothered with opinions, and leave news-like threads, like "Woman sues because crunch berries aren't real..." in OC unless they get serious discussion. THEN promote them to Debate section. There's a real distinction between the type of discussion one of those news-y threads and a thread specifically started to debate a topic, and such. The other threads which don't get as heated can stay out in OC itself.

If further classification of debate threads is needed, then do so by adding subforums within it. It's doable.

countryemo October 24th, 2011 2:10 PM

Hm great idea as much as I'm not sure how the subforums will work, but it seems pretty nice and that'll it work out great.

Hm better yet, to still clean it up but keep it active we can have the.. forgot, lol. like:
[News] Thread name
[Politics] Thread name
[Debate] Thread name
[LGBT] Thread name

Sydian October 24th, 2011 2:14 PM

Quote:

Or we could just let OC be a really active general discussion forum like it's meant to be rather than splitting it off into a bunch of inactive subforums?
This wouldn't affect the activity negatively, imo. If you look at the first page or two of OC, nearly all of those threads fit into one of the suggested subforums.

Livewire October 24th, 2011 2:44 PM

I'd be perfectly fine with bringing some more concrete definition to OC. Too vague, too many possibilities.

Alex October 24th, 2011 2:55 PM

Yes, perhaps a dedicated LGBT subforum is a little too specific. Social Issues sounds much better in my opinion. And a dedicated Politics subforum instead of split between countries. I just suggested an American Politics subforum because most of our users are from the USA. That's the power of brainstorming!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Morkula (Post 6902458)
Or we could just let OC be a really active general discussion forum like it's meant to be rather than splitting it off into a bunch of inactive subforums?

I'm sorry but "inactive" is the last thing these subforums will be. I'm trying to ease LiveWire's job, in case you don't realize it.

Ineffable~ October 24th, 2011 3:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sydian (Post 6902432)
Then perhaps instead of LGBT, there can be the subforums "Politics", "Social Issues", and "Philosophical", and the adorable Celebrations ofc. Social Issues would be the news threads on the things like a major suicide because of x thing that happened to this person, exotic animals on the loose in Ohio, restaurants turning so and so down because of x thing they are/did. Things like that that are getting cracked down on so hard lately.

When this was said, somewhere far far away there was a loud click noise.

I agree with all this. I think it's a really good idea. Whenever I feel like posting in Other Chat in some fun random thread (which is often) I have to root through a myriad of political threads that seem to fill up the entire page. That's probably the only reason I post there almost none of the time rather than all of the time.

Well, maybe not the only reason...

Melody October 24th, 2011 3:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penatrait (Post 6902534)
Yes, perhaps a dedicated LGBT subforum is a little too specific. Social Issues sounds much better in my opinion. And a dedicated Politics subforum instead of split between countries. I just suggested an American Politics subforum because most of our users are from the USA. That's the power of brainstorming!




I'm sorry but "inactive" is the last thing these subforums will be. I'm trying to ease LiveWire's job, in case you don't realize it.

I understand you're just trying to help, and he may not care, but I do not believe that separating these threads from the rest is really going to help OC in the long run. I know Live already does a fine job usually, and I don't believe he needs more subforums to complicate matters for him. K.I.S.S. or else he'll be flooded with a wave of nubcaeks so green and wet behind the ears they won't know HOW to post in OC.

When that happens OC will go down the tubes and it's activity will go with it. Besides, OC is anything but flooded as it is now, it's thriving beautifully and you don't have to look too hard for any active thread worth talking about. There aren't 50 pages of threads that have been posted in by someone in the last month like there commonly is in emulation or sections like it. The index of OC in it's default view, which prunes threads old enough to get closed if you post in anyway, is only two pages in length. I'm sorry if you use an alternate view and got an inflated count, but that's how it is. OC is thriving, not bursting at the seams and it hardly needs additional subforums. We should give Live a chance to show his skills as a moderator before we go about trying to "Help" him too much. He's kind of prideful anyway, so implying he needs help doesn't help your position much anyway...as anyone who knows or has dealt with him knows he can occasionally be quite headstrong and/or independent.

Oryx October 24th, 2011 3:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6902566)


I understand you're just trying to help, and he may not care, but I do not believe that separating these threads from the rest is really going to help OC in the long run. I know Live already does a fine job usually, and I don't believe he needs more subforums to complicate matters for him. K.I.S.S. or else he'll be flooded with a wave of nubcaeks so green and wet behind the ears they won't know HOW to post in OC.

When that happens OC will go down the tubes and it's activity will go with it. Besides, OC is anything but flooded as it is now, it's thriving beautifully and you don't have to look too hard for any active thread worth talking about. There aren't 50 pages of threads that have been posted in by someone in the last month like there commonly is in emulation or sections like it. The index of OC in it's default view, which prunes threads old enough to get closed if you post in anyway, is only two pages in length. I'm sorry if you use an alternate view and got an inflated count, but that's how it is. OC is thriving, not bursting at the seams and it hardly needs additional subforums. We should give Live a chance to show his skills as a moderator before we go about trying to "Help" him too much. He's kind of prideful anyway, so implying he needs help doesn't help your position much anyway...as anyone who knows or has dealt with him knows he can occasionally be quite headstrong and/or independent.

He's already said he would be fine with this idea, a few posts ago. o_O

It may seem simple right now for you, but there have been multiple people posting here saying that the way OC is now is keeping them from posting and having more concrete sections would make them post in OC more. In this case, it's a matter of having just one big section seems simple to you, but to everyone else who's agreeing in this thread it's much simpler to understand when it's more specific to different issues.

Livewire October 24th, 2011 3:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6902566)

We should give Live a chance to show his skills as a moderator before we go about trying to "Help" him too much. He's kind of prideful anyway, so implying he needs help doesn't help your position much anyway...as anyone who knows or has dealt with him knows he can occasionally be quite headstrong and/or independent.

I've been at it for nearly 11 months. I don't need to prove much else.

And for the record, I did ask for help.

Sydian October 24th, 2011 3:19 PM

Quote:

I understand you're just trying to help, and he may not care, but I do not believe that separating these threads from the rest is really going to help OC in the long run. I know Live already does a fine job usually, and I don't believe he needs more subforums to complicate matters for him. K.I.S.S. or else he'll be flooded with a wave of nubcaeks so green and wet behind the ears they won't know HOW to post in OC.
I just want to point out that there are even members that have been here for years that don't know how to post in OC. So it's not just "nubcaeks," it's veterans too.

Alex October 24th, 2011 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6902566)
I understand you're just trying to help, and he may not care, but I do not believe that separating these threads from the rest is really going to help OC in the long run. I know Live already does a fine job usually, and I don't believe he needs more subforums to complicate matters for him. K.I.S.S. or else he'll be flooded with a wave of nubcaeks so green and wet behind the ears they won't know HOW to post in OC.

When that happens OC will go down the tubes and it's activity will go with it. Besides, OC is anything but flooded as it is now, it's thriving beautifully and you don't have to look too hard for any active thread worth talking about. There aren't 50 pages of threads that have been posted in by someone in the last month like there commonly is in emulation or sections like it. The index of OC in it's default view, which prunes threads old enough to get closed if you post in anyway, is only two pages in length. I'm sorry if you use an alternate view and got an inflated count, but that's how it is. OC is thriving, not bursting at the seams and it hardly needs additional subforums. We should give Live a chance to show his skills as a moderator before we go about trying to "Help" him too much. He's kind of prideful anyway, so implying he needs help doesn't help your position much anyway...as anyone who knows or has dealt with him knows he can occasionally be quite headstrong and/or independent.

Errr, I think we would notice an increase in user activity if we regulated the topics. Just because it's not bursting at the seams does not mean we can't take initiative to make it better. Prevention is the key.

Nope, creating subforums will only ease a poster's intention. The only way activity can be diminished is by banning certain thread topics. If I were to be suggesting that we ban all political discussion in OC, THAT would be suggesting to lower OC's activity. Creating subforums will only help someone find a certain board they want to post in. I know a lot of people bring their philosophical thoughts to PC to share and discuss, however to find those types of threads you have to scroll through a ton of other topics that you just aren't interested in seeing. What bad could having subforums dedicated to Politics, Social Issues and Philosophical Discussions do? You're dreaming if you think it'll deaden the forum. I can't imagine it would do that in any type of scenario. The only way it would happen is if the whole forum are a bunch of sheep and hesitate on posting threads in the new subforums due to lack of threads. I mean, really.

Also, don't speak as if you know or are LiveWire. Who do you think you are.

Melody October 24th, 2011 4:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live_Wire466 (Post 6902574)


I've been at it for nearly 11 months. I don't need to prove much else.

And for the record, I did ask for help.

Never said you had to. Just saying that if you had not asked for help, it would be wise for them to give you the space to get your job done. I also probably didn't get the memo that you were asking for help again. You so kindly told me to buzz off last time I tried. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sydian (Post 6902576)


I just want to point out that there are even members that have been here for years that don't know how to post in OC. So it's not just "nubcaeks," it's veterans too.

True enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penatrait (Post 6902590)
Errr, I think we would notice an increase in user activity if we regulated the topics. Just because it's not bursting at the seams does not mean we can't take initiative to make it better. Prevention is the key.

Nope, creating subforums will only ease a poster's intention. The only way activity can be diminished is by banning certain thread topics. If I were to be suggesting that we ban all political discussion in OC, THAT would be suggesting to lower OC's activity. Creating subforums will only help someone find a certain board they want to post in. I know a lot of people bring their philosophical thoughts to PC to share and discuss, however to find those types of threads you have to scroll through a ton of other topics that you just aren't interested in seeing. What bad could having subforums dedicated to Politics, Social Issues and Philosophical Discussions do? You're dreaming if you think it'll deaden the forum. I can't imagine it would do that in any type of scenario. The only way it would happen is if the whole forum are a bunch of sheep and hesitate on posting threads in the new subforums due to lack of threads. I mean, really.

Also, don't speak as if you know or are LiveWire. Who do you think you are.

I don't believe I have to think I'm anybody special to know how Live has acted in my eyes. Don't go taking up such a defensive posture because I'm running D.A. on this idea. If you have evidence to present to refute my statement, you may, or you can just as simply ignore it and continue assuming I don't know him that well. But that assumption should not invalidate any of my arguments on that front.

Personally I don't think prevention is key at this point at all. OC is not suffering. Live does a pretty good job.
Like I said in my initial post, if we do add any subforums, why not just lump all the debate topics into one big "Debate" subforum? Let the debating folks of OC worry about figuring out which thread is where. I personally don't want to have to browse through 3-4 different forums to cover the various topics I'm interested in...it's too much of a hassle for a small handful of threads. I could stomach ONE subforum more in OC to segregate more serious debate-style topics from the lighter-hearted ones though.

I never really said we should ban any topics in OC, so don't go putting words or arguments in my mouth either.

Quote:

The only way it would happen is if the whole forum are a bunch of sheep and hesitate on posting threads in the new subforums due to lack of threads. I mean, really.
One of the first things you must learn when you really get to PC is that there really ARE a lot of sheep on PC. In fact it's the same flock of sheep that's complaining because we DARE have intelligent discussions in OC. It's the same flock that B&Ms about a little bit of scrolling and scanning of a very small two page index.


I'm sorry but I really DON'T think this sort of thing is necessary at all. You all can just SCROLL and LIVE WITH IT. Because seriously, scrolling? What kind of argument is that?

Aquacorde October 24th, 2011 4:19 PM

Hmm... I actually think a division like this would be helpful. Speaking as someone who doesn't much post in OC, I find that part of it is just that... everything is all over the place, like people have been saying. If it were a bit more organized, perhaps I could find something I would know about or like to post in more easily? And I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe there are others who feel the same. And if you had even ten more people with that mindset, you'd see an increase in activity overall, would you not? Maybe each section individually would look a bit dead sometimes, but as a whole they'd be booming.

> skim'd thread, formulated opinion, here you go. sorry if it's been said lol

Sydian October 24th, 2011 4:26 PM

Quote:

I'm sorry but I really DON'T think this sort of thing is necessary at all. You all can just SCROLL and LIVE WITH IT. Because seriously, scrolling? What kind of argument is that?
Didn't you have a problem with scrolling back when there was an advertisement link to donate to Japan? So don't go to that argument.

Quote:

Hmm... I actually think a division like this would be helpful. Speaking as someone who doesn't much post in OC, I find that part of it is just that... everything is all over the place, like people have been saying. If it were a bit more organized, perhaps I could find something I would know about or like to post in more easily? And I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe there are others who feel the same. And if you had even ten more people with that mindset, you'd see an increase in activity overall, would you not? Maybe each section individually would look a bit dead sometimes, but as a whole they'd be booming.
See? It's opinions like these that show the forum needs some kind of organization.

Saryka October 24th, 2011 4:26 PM

I quite like this idea. I'm not much of an OC poster (besides the DCC) myself, but I do think it would make the forums much cleaner and more organized. Plus, it might be more welcoming to other members who might not like to partake in the kinds of serious debates currently found in OC, if the main forum were for all the actual miscellaneous topics. I feel like some people might hesitate to post in OC since the forum's dominated by debates and such, and not everyone's into that. And like everyone has said before, it would be much easier for people to find what they want to discuss instead of wading through all sorts of really diverse topics.

Alex October 24th, 2011 4:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6902648)
I don't believe I have to think I'm anybody special to know how Live has acted in my eyes. Don't go taking up such a defensive posture because I'm running D.A. on this idea. If you have evidence to present to refute my statement, you may, or you can just as simply ignore it and continue assuming I don't know him that well. But that assumption should not invalidate any of my arguments on that front.

Personally I don't think prevention is key at this point at all. OC is not suffering. Live does a pretty good job.
Like I said in my initial post, if we do add any subforums, why not just lump all the debate topics into one big "Debate" subforum? Let the debating folks of OC worry about figuring out which thread is where. I personally don't want to have to browse through 3-4 different forums to cover the various topics I'm interested in...it's too much of a hassle for a small handful of threads. I could stomach ONE subforum more in OC to segregate more serious debate-style topics from the lighter-hearted ones though.

I never really said we should ban any topics in OC, so don't go putting words or arguments in my mouth either.


One of the first things you must learn when you really get to PC is that there really ARE a lot of sheep on PC. In fact it's the same flock of sheep that's complaining because we DARE have intelligent discussions in OC. It's the same flock that B&Ms about a little bit of scrolling and scanning of a very small two page index.


I'm sorry but I really DON'T think this sort of thing is necessary at all. You all can just SCROLL and LIVE WITH IT. Because seriously, scrolling? What kind of argument is that?

It did not invalidate anything, I don't think anyone reading my post would have thought so. I'm just stating that it's incredibly pompous of you to speak as if you knew LiveWire so well and think you know exactly how he reacts to this thread. It's ironic that later on in your reply here you speak of me putting words into your mouth.

The reason why we would not lump everything into a Debate subforum is because it would be a failed attempt at categorizing threads in OC. Just about any thread in OC that isn't a news thread, is a topic up for debate. The goal here is to categorize the debates: Social issues will be debated in the Social Issues subforum; Politics and political standings will be debated in the Politics subforum; and Philosophy will be debated in the Philosophical Discussion subforum. And that's just it! You won't have to scroll through 3 to 4 forums! Because you'll know what you're interested in at the time. If you want to look up on any political issues that are going about PC, hey, they're all neatly packed together in a little subforum. If you're looking for some philosophical enlightenment from the wise members on PC, bam, there's a forum dedicated to it. Also, for this argument I could very well use what you used against me: You can just SCROLL and LIVE WITH IT.

I never said you said that.

Well Pachy, it's fine if they're sheep. Because even if they are, those of us who are not sheep will keep these forums alive. And the sheep will follow our lead. Foolproof.

I'm sorry but I DON'T think it has to be necessary to be considered. It seriously takes 3 clicks of a button for this to happen. It costs 0 dollars to do. I don't see what the huge issue is here, apart from people wanting to keep OC the way it is for the sake of keeping the status quo.

Ineffable~ October 24th, 2011 4:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6902648)
You all can just SCROLL and LIVE WITH IT. Because seriously, scrolling? What kind of argument is that?

Not really a very helpful thing to say. You can't just say that and expect people to suddenly post more because they've a newfound respect for scrolling.

The way I see it, the endgoal of each section of a forum is to be a flourishing, popularly-visited place where people enjoy themselves talking about one thing or another, with the thingoranother varying depending on the section. If you need to cater a little to the laziness of a certain flock of sheep to get more widespread enjoyment of a forum section, you should do that instead of telling the sheep that their behaviours are irrational, am I wrong?
What goal does doing what the people want accomplish? More popularity.
What goal does it accomplish to tell the people they shouldn't want what they want? None.

EDIT: Ninja'd in every way possible. D:

Melody October 24th, 2011 4:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sydian (Post 6902681)


Didn't you have a problem with scrolling back when there was an advertisement link to donate to Japan? So don't go to that argument.

Syd, Ineffable.
I throw that argument in your faces now, because they threw it in mine back then. :3 (See quote)
It's a two way argument really.


Well played Penatrait. Well played.

Taemin October 24th, 2011 5:45 PM

Guys, is changing one or two things in one area of a forum something worth arguing over?

Not really. >__>

Anyhoooo, something I thought of is this question: If everything posted in OC can fit into one of the suggested sub-forums, then what's left for the general OC area outside of said sub-forums?

I was also going to say that there's a few threads for each sub-forum in there right now, so if any current threads are moved then each sub-forum would have two or three threads at least. I dunno if OC is quite active enough to be split up into so many areas, though I could be wrong. I need to spend more time in there. xD;

& If sub-forums are created, someone said their weren't enough LGBT threads created to warrant there own area, but also maybe if they were given their own area then people would be more likely to make them. Same could be said for topics of other sub-forums. I still don't think OC should be so split up, but I suppose it would look more tidy, and it might help the activity. Sorry if I sound like a broken record of anyone else's posts, just throwing my two cents out there.

Oryx October 24th, 2011 5:56 PM

I went a tad farther back than the one-month limit but my own estimation of where threads would be moved it would be something like:

Politics - 14
Social Issues - 38
Philosophy - 10
General - 12

The social issues ones were most of the news ones that I ran across though, some of them might belong in the general forum just as much.

Chikara October 24th, 2011 6:10 PM

I like this idea. It's something that should be given a try before people jump on it saying it's unneeded and won't help. There's no wait to know that until it's given a chance, so I don't see why ~*!*~some~*!*~ people are saying "no nono no nonono ono n" :3c

Ho-Oh October 24th, 2011 6:20 PM

I kinda skipped the posts half way down so forgive me if this has been asked/mentioned/whatever. Question, didn't we have a RSS feeds forum where all news got put into? I think a forum just for news articles to discuss could work on its own tbh, considering there's so much news, but that could really fit into C&M anyway so. But for politics, idk, I like the idea of a general politics debate forum but it'd need a lot of supervision.

While the other subforums mentioned aren't bad, I think leaving everything general except politics and news could work out, since I dunno, I consider philosophy as something under a general blanket and I kinda consider the purpose of OC to be for social issues somewhat. :x

Sydian October 24th, 2011 6:25 PM

Quote:

While the other subforums mentioned aren't bad, I think leaving everything general except politics and news could work out, since I dunno, I consider philosophy as something under a general blanket and I kinda consider the purpose of OC to be for social issues somewhat. :x
I consider OC a place for social issues and such as well, but the social issues are mainly the news articles that people keep posting and Live wants to cut back on, if you look at the announcement. If they had a subforum and weren't in the general blanket, I think the stance on them could go back to normal somewhat. I personally think most OPs that post a link and quote from a source don't put in enough input on their first post, so if they could do that instead of post some humorous sentence about the news, then it wouldn't be such an issue and that subforum could go well.

Livewire October 24th, 2011 6:48 PM

News threads, politics, social issues, whatever, I don't want one particular aspect to dominate the entire section. I sure as hell know most of you don't enjoy sifting through a dozen or more threads on politics, understandably so. That if anything, is what pushes people away and makes it "scary".

Shining Raichu October 24th, 2011 6:59 PM

This might be an appropriate time to suggest this, since I've been thinking about it for quite a while.

I've often thought that Post Your Problems, rather than just being one stickied thread, would be better served as a subforum. I think people would be more comfortable posting their problems if each problem got its own thread. I think it'd make people feel like they actually had people's attention and would make them more likely to seek advice from the community. It would also make me, personally, more likely to post advice if I could feel like I was heard. This is meant to be a community, so it'd be good to have a larger place where people can go and help each other, rather than just one thread.

It's just an idea though, it's no big deal if people don't like it lol

Netto Azure October 24th, 2011 6:59 PM

We've had this debate before (LOL) Just make a separate Politics/Debate/Controversy sub forum and everyone would stop complaining and know what they're getting into.

Still for SOME REASON ever since I became a member here, this issue (LOL) has been quite controversial (XD) to older members/staff >_>

Nick October 24th, 2011 7:00 PM

Why don't we just make a single politics and news forum and move all those threads there, and focus Other Chat on more... <insert a good word to describe what Live_Wire and the regulars want out of Other Chat>? That way, there's a place to go specifically for people interested in politics and news articles, and there's a place to go for intellectual discussion on philosophy, etc.? It's not like people can use the excuse "oh well, we don't have enough to warrant a forum!" There's more than enough, and it's been stated time and time again that it's not necessary nor wanted.

Netto Azure October 24th, 2011 7:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6902861)
Why don't we just make a single politics and news forum and move all those threads there, and focus Other Chat on more... <insert a good word to describe what Live_Wire and the regulars want out of Other Chat>? That way, there's a place to go specifically for people interested in politics and news articles, and there's a place to go for intellectual discussion on philosophy, etc.? It's not like people can use the excuse "oh well, we don't have enough to warrant a forum!" There's more than enough, and it's been stated time and time again that it's not necessary nor wanted.

That's what I've said since 2008 really. But no people kept mentioning how the Thunderdome was some sort of flop or flame fest or something.

Still it would help my life be a lot easier to know where to go to for discussions.

But yeah in BMGf we've made our Politics sub-forum invite only to those we know could actually stay level headed in a deep discussion. :/

Ineffable~ October 24th, 2011 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 6902859)
This might be an appropriate time to suggest this, since I've been thinking about it for quite a while.

I've often thought that Post Your Problems, rather than just being one stickied thread, would be better served as a subforum. I think people would be more comfortable posting their problems if each problem got its own thread. I think it'd make people feel like they actually had people's attention and would make them more likely to seek advice from the community. It would also make me, personally, more likely to post advice if I could feel like I was heard. This is meant to be a community, so it'd be good to have a larger place where people can go and help each other, rather than just one thread.

It's just an idea though, it's no big deal if people don't like it lol

Oh wow, I like this.
It's always seemed to me that that thread was just disorganised. I don't mean like incredibly disorganised, but rather the natural level of disorganisation you get from putting several questions and several answers all in one in no particular order. This would make it easier for people to find the answers posted to their problems and easier to distinguish problems that haven't been "solved" yet.

Her October 24th, 2011 8:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu (Post 6902859)
This might be an appropriate time to suggest this, since I've been thinking about it for quite a while.

I've often thought that Post Your Problems, rather than just being one stickied thread, would be better served as a subforum. I think people would be more comfortable posting their problems if each problem got its own thread. I think it'd make people feel like they actually had people's attention and would make them more likely to seek advice from the community. It would also make me, personally, more likely to post advice if I could feel like I was heard. This is meant to be a community, so it'd be good to have a larger place where people can go and help each other, rather than just one thread.

It's just an idea though, it's no big deal if people don't like it lol

This I'm not so sure about. I'm sure it'd be very active, but I feel as if it'd just come down to the same old threads popping up over and over again. By those, I mean 'How do I ask someone out/What to do if my friend hates me/Help, I'm pregnant (that last one was a stretch but you get what I mean). If there were a way to restrict the amount of those threads that came in, i'd be a-ok with the section, but at the moment I'm a bit skeptical.

Ineffable~ October 24th, 2011 8:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlequin (Post 6902936)


This I'm not so sure about. I'm sure it'd be very active, but I feel as if it'd just come down to the same old threads popping up over and over again. By those, I mean 'How do I ask someone out/What to do if my friend hates me/Help, I'm pregnant (that last one was a stretch but you get what I mean). If there were a way to restrict the amount of those threads that came in, i'd be a-ok with the section, but at the moment I'm a bit skeptical.

What if the threads just got deleted periodically to declutter and keep the subforum from taking up too much space?
I feel like once I heard the staff give a good reason as to why they never delete threads, but I don't remember what this was.
Anyway, I'm thinking if that subforum were made, maybe it would be customised in a way that it would be different from other sections, but I don't know exactly how...

Captain Fabio October 24th, 2011 11:54 PM

A couple of years back before the lovely Love_Wire was moderator, there were a ton of news threads and pointless ones at that. I created a joint news thread and it just didn't take off. Maybe that was because people didn't think it was a good idea, or they just wanted to post the stupid news threads.

Either way, if this was enforced correctly, it could work. Love_wire will be doing a lot of merging, I guarantee that, because people want to show their crazy news stories and putting it in a thread where a crazy thread title can't be seen isn't as appealing.

I am in two minds about the whole idea, but if there was some order in the board, then I would post more. It isn't because of Live_Wire doing a bad job, he is doing an amazing job as I would expect my bro to do, but the board is normally over run with random news topics or political topics that have nothing to do with me, in the sense of not having anything to do with the country I live in.

Like I said before, it would need some planning and to have a decent mount of implementation time for it to really take off and work.

Just my two cents.


Netto Azure October 25th, 2011 1:06 AM

I wish we had a system for Indexing.

Or start threads like:

(TYPE) TOPIC

Still international threads are free to be made. But people don't make them I guess. xD

Mr Cat Dog October 25th, 2011 6:42 AM

I agree that OC definitely needs at least some form of 'definition', as opposed to the hodgepodge of threads it is now. However, as the cliche goes, Rome wasn't built in a day. As a trial run/compromise, how about making one sub-forum for one of the proposed topics? I guess "Politics" would be the best one, off the top of my head, as there's loads of political threads.

If that has the effect of loosening up OC while being a vibrant sub-forum in its own right, that could clear the way for other sub-forums as suggested by Penatrait and others in this thread. If it has the opposite effect - it becomes a desolate subforum whilst syphoning off activity from the main OC forum - then it wouldn't be too hard to re-combine the forums and forget the whole sorry mess ever happened.

[/two pennies]

Saryka October 25th, 2011 6:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 6903207)
Other Chat probably needs some sort of total overhaul. A repurposing, I suppose.

Maybe we could do with spanning the current forum into a "News & Views" forum (or sub forum) and then creating a new Other Chat that really does encompass general discussions. I don't see the need for several broad sub forums, however.

I like this. I kind of rethought the idea of all the different subforums and it would just make it more cluttered. Aaaand if there are threads that, for example, could potentially be a political and social issue at the same time, it could be hard to place them accordingly if there are so many subforums.

I like the idea of it being a separate forum, so that Other Chat can truly be other chat. I feel that we have enough serious discussions on PC that kind of makes it a category of its own.

Livewire October 25th, 2011 7:57 AM

I'll go back and find the details from when I brought this up in the lounge, but if I remember correctly, Other Chat becomes:

Debates & Discussions


Laid back, "Other Chatish" threads belong in Discussions, along with the DCC, Post your pictures, etc. Post Your problems, as well as the threads concerning social issues, politics, religion and philosophical debates belonging in, you guessed it, Debates. (Now just because it's in debates, that doesn't mean every topic needs to get heated and nasty).

And to further clarify, I would utilize some form of prefix tags as well..

Esper October 25th, 2011 9:17 AM

For a small change that doesn't involve adding subforums maybe just a single [Debate] prefix tag would help let people know what kind of thread they're getting into.

I've thought that there could be a division (either tags, a subforum, or a whole new forum) for the serious business threads (politics, social issues, etc.) and lighter chat (like the DCC and news stories about kittens doing cute things), but honestly I don't see a big problem with OC aside from less activity compared to other areas. If everyone agrees that it needs a change then I'd just like something done - throw things out there and see what sticks. We won't know until we try. If we fail like some people predict then, well, we fail and go back to how things are. No harm done, right?

seeker October 25th, 2011 9:39 AM

The forum is simply disorganized more than anything. Slightly outdated. There's not a need for a sub-forum, but more of a reason for prefixes as Scarf suggested. I don't see a big problem with it either, it's not the section that is the issue, but the posts and threads made by some of the memberbase, so I think that there needs to be more of an outline on what constitutes as disrespectful and what people should avoid doing. Which is seen in the rules, but perhaps a more hands on approach needs to be taken by Live, and/or the higher staff.

In terms of a forum title change, I do agree that Other Chat is a little too laid back, Even something such as "Other Chat & Discussions" would both clarify the more laid back approach to certain threads as well as the more serious discussions and debates without going too far from the original name that people are used to. I actually think "Debates & Discussions" isn't accurate enough, it suggests a 100% serious board where laid back conversation won't be found. Where it is quite the opposite given the fact that the most popular thread being the DCC has been running for 5+ years.

The addition of prefixes is something I feel would be necessary at this stage, due to the fact there's quite a diversity in the type of thread that is posted there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6902861)
Why don't we just make a single politics and news forum and move all those threads there, and focus Other Chat on more... <insert a good word to describe what Live_Wire and the regulars want out of Other Chat>? That way, there's a place to go specifically for people interested in politics and news articles, and there's a place to go for intellectual discussion on philosophy, etc.? It's not like people can use the excuse "oh well, we don't have enough to warrant a forum!" There's more than enough, and it's been stated time and time again that it's not necessary nor wanted.

There's enough to warrant a forum, but you'd be taking a big clunk out of Other Chat's activity for a new forum. I could see OC becoming dead after that. So again, I think prefixes solve that issue.

Ineffable~ October 25th, 2011 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live_Wire466 (Post 6903432)
I'll go back and find the details from when I brought this up in the lounge, but if I remember correctly, Other Chat becomes:

Debates & Discussions


Laid back, "Other Chatish" threads belong in Discussions, along with the DCC, Post your pictures, etc. Post Your problems, as well as the threads concerning social issues, politics, religion and philosophical debates belonging in, you guessed it, Debates. (Now just because it's in debates, that doesn't mean every topic needs to get heated and nasty).

And to further clarify, I would utilize some form of prefix tags as well..

So just to be clear, it would be like this?


Other Chat Forum



Debate Subforum



Politics What do you think of this senator?
Philosophical Is incest okay? [(Well personally idk if this would be philosophical or social)]
Social Should Gingers have rights?

Discussion Subforum



The Daily Chit-Chat! (Sticky)
News Woman sues Build-a-Bear for low-quality stuffing
Philosophical How does weather affect your behaviour?









Okay, those are bad / not serious examples but I want to know if I'm getting the picture.

Livewire October 25th, 2011 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnegation (Post 6903525)
I don't see a big problem with it either, it's not the section that is the issue, but the posts and threads made by some of the memberbase, so I think that there needs to be more of an outline on what constitutes as disrespectful and what people should avoid doing. Which is seen in the rules, but perhaps a more hands on approach needs to be taken by Live, and/or the higher staff.

I agree.

However, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that I have the most hands-on approach of the current Moderators, which usually gets me labeled as a Hardass and/or mean by those who draw my ire. But obviously the current system could use more revamping and clarification - more must be done.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ineffable~ (Post 6903545)

So just to be clear, it would be like this?


Other Chat Forum



Debate Subforum



Politics What do you think of this senator?
Philosophical Is incest okay? [(Well personally idk if this would be philosophical or social)]
Social Should Gingers have rights?

Discussion Subforum



The Daily Chit-Chat! (Sticky)
News Woman sues Build-a-Bear for low-quality stuffing
Philosophical How does weather affect your behaviour?



Essentially, yes.

Ineffable~ October 25th, 2011 1:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live_Wire466 (Post 6903684)
Essentially, yes.

In that case, I rather like the idea, so for what it's worth my vote goes to this until someone has a better plan.

Alex October 25th, 2011 1:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 6903207)
Other Chat probably needs some sort of total overhaul. A repurposing, I suppose.

Maybe we could do with spanning the current forum into a "News & Views" forum (or sub forum) and then creating a new Other Chat that really does encompass general discussions. I don't see the need for several broad sub forums, however.

Jake I don't think that's going to be a good way to splitting Other Chat. I assume that within the "News & Views" forum, there will be news articles and topics of debate. I really don't think those two should be mixed. Because while some news articles will be topics up for debate, there will be real philosophical discussions going on as well and the two don't seem to mix in my opinion. I truly think News articles would fit much better within the general chat forum. Topical Debate & Discussion should be its own forum, for those who are looking stimulating conversation.

I rather prefer Live's rendition of how the forum should be split.

Nick October 25th, 2011 3:10 PM

The only appropriate thing to do in my mind is to filter out all the heated discussions.

Other Chat is a forum that has become somewhere where it's hard for new members to really get into. Every thread seems to go from a discussion to a small debate or a large-scale debate. Some people just like discussions without it turning into a debate. So a solution to that would be to filter the debates into a sub-forum, and leave behind the remains of a free-for-all forum that Other Chat has traditionally been and focus on keeping those threads on their own, without becoming a debate.

Right now, it seems like Other Chat is pretty much a Debates & Discussions forum, focusing on news and politics and religion and the like, with debates being the primary thread type. The atmosphere of the forum is really tense when I go there, I find, which discourages most members from posting.

Melody October 25th, 2011 3:12 PM

I like the idea of just one "Debates" subforum.

But I also like the idea of tags better, especially if the h-staff is worried about killing the activity of the main OC.

Oryx October 25th, 2011 4:42 PM

I always saw prefixes as a way of making subforums for things that don't have enough difference to get subforums in most places. For example, the Trade Corner has B/W and Fourth Gen prefixes. I always assumed it was because there aren't enough of one or the other (probably 4th gen) to make their own subforum, but it should be noted that they're different. Same with the FF section, with Pokemon and Other, I always thought it was just because there wasn't enough of either one to warrant their own section so they used prefixes instead.

I like the layout that Live/Ineffable came up with, I can see how using "Discussions" could get slightly confusing though, since not everyone thinks of discussions as lighthearted so they may see the name and shy away. However, it does have a nice ring to it and the description of the section could let people know that lighthearted discussion is allowed and encouraged.

Ineffable~ October 25th, 2011 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6904022)
I like the layout that Live/Ineffable came up with, I can see how using "Discussions" could get slightly confusing though, since not everyone thinks of discussions as lighthearted so they may see the name and shy away. However, it does have a nice ring to it and the description of the section could let people know that lighthearted discussion is allowed and encouraged.

I thought of this too and my immediate thought was, maybe it should be called "Other Chat & Debates" or something. Idk, I don't want to have a name that is too unwieldy since Other Chat is pretty/shiny enough that it should have a pretty/shiny name. Chat definitely sounds like the most laid-back word possible.

Belinda October 25th, 2011 4:59 PM

I really don't see a need for sub-forums, like some have already said prefixes pretty much do it for at least me. PC is big enough as is. Seeing as how many categories/forums it holds already. But in all that's just my opinion. Sometimes I get overwhelmed seeing a lot of forums (I don't really hold interest in Pokémon sections anymore). I mean sure it isn't hard to collapse the categories but I'm not the kind of person to save my browser data. xD;

Netto Azure October 25th, 2011 5:36 PM

I disagree with those who say that having a Debate/News subforum is something we don't need.

First of all, splitting the 2 types of discussion into a main and sub forum respectively would allow new members to come in without being "terrorized" by all the heated debates that come up generally.

Secondly, the casual discussions would be relegated as the MAIN forum thereby isolating the stuff people here have an adversity to in the SUB forum no?

Finally activity would increase overall due to the fact that the split would get new people into the Discussions side of the Forum while the more established members can handle the Debates Sub-Forum.

Plus the Prefix system would be seriously awesome IMO. It would allow things to be clarified so people will know what they're going into.

Nick October 25th, 2011 5:39 PM

I think the only problem is that a lot of members make discussion threads into debate threads, and there's a very, very fine line between a discussion and a debate that even I don't really understand. I was sitting here thinking "Well, if we do split the debates into a sub-forum, what kinds of threads will be left behind?" Because then I'd just think the main Other Chat forum would blur the lines even more than they already are with the difference between it and the Other Voting Polls forum.

Netto Azure October 25th, 2011 5:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6904095)
I think the only problem is that a lot of members make discussion threads into debate threads, and there's a very, very fine line between a discussion and a debate that even I don't really understand. I was sitting here thinking "Well, if we do split the debates into a sub-forum, what kinds of threads will be left behind?" Because then I'd just think the main Other Chat forum would blur the lines even more than they already are with the difference between it and the Other Voting Polls forum.

Then what IS OVP for then? A lot of the discussions about everyday life already go there, so it's not much of a surprise that the "Discussion" aspect of what is being proposed sounds close to OVP.

A lot of people, veterans and higher ups, ever since I joined kept on saying that debates go on Other Chat everytime the issue raised by this thread is brought up so I am not surprised that it IS debates that pop up in there and take up a lot of the discussion.

Nick October 25th, 2011 5:54 PM

Well, Other Voting Polls encourages very minimal discussion, but most of them are post-and-go threads. I made an outline back when I modded the forum for a more detailed description on the types of threads that belong in Other Voting Polls.

Netto Azure October 25th, 2011 6:01 PM

So the discussion aspect for the stuff posted in OVP goes to OC then? :U

Nick October 25th, 2011 6:03 PM

Uhhh, I don't think that's a very solid solution. :(

Ineffable~ October 25th, 2011 6:24 PM

I think the whole "post and go" thing actually well describes the difference between debate and discussion. In a discussion you post what you think of it and then you're done. Maybe someone will reply to it saying "oh well that's interesting my idea was this:" but mostly you don't have to think about the thread after that. Whereas in a debate you're more likely to constantly check the thread and keep debating until one of three things happen:
1.) The argument is concluded because an agreement has been come to.
2.) You get a little too frustrated or bored with it.
3.) The whole thing gets too heated and is forcibly stopped.

In OVP, rarely ever do people directly reply to each other's posts. They simply answer the question straight out without much extra comment. Non-debate OC discussions should be more intricate but still with less interaction than in debates.

EDIT: Lol nvm that was wrong. I shouldn't post when I have a headache.

Oryx October 25th, 2011 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6904095)
I think the only problem is that a lot of members make discussion threads into debate threads, and there's a very, very fine line between a discussion and a debate that even I don't really understand. I was sitting here thinking "Well, if we do split the debates into a sub-forum, what kinds of threads will be left behind?" Because then I'd just think the main Other Chat forum would blur the lines even more than they already are with the difference between it and the Other Voting Polls forum.

I disagree with the analysis that Ineffable gave to this, actually. If you're in a discussion in real life, you don't just say your opinion on a topic to someone and then walk away, so it shouldn't mean something similar on the internet. A discussion to me is basically, as one of the definitions of it is put, a conversation. When I think of discussions, I think of the way that people post in club threads, but about various topics - none of them are angry at each other (most of the time), they're just discussing various angles of a topic, building on each other, disagreeing sometimes, etc.

It is a fine line but I believe that stuff such as "Celebrity Mishaps", "Woman Sues Cap'n Crunch", "9-year-old daughter designated driver", "Every Day I'm Shuffling", "Harry Potter Actor...", "Iowa Couple...", "Time Travel", "Samsung Seeks...", "11-year-old banned...", "iPods in Class", "Police called over...", "Pet Discussion", "Bull Sharks...", "Food Thread", and "That thing..." would all stay in the main forum, which, as 15 of the 41 threads on the first page, would mean that the majority would go into the Debates subforum, but it wouldn't be split entirely unevenly. There are some I was iffy about, but my criteria was "knowing PC, will this turn into something heated?" That was why I was more tempted to put the LGBT issues into Discussions than Debates - those threads, while heavy, tend to not get heated whatsoever because everyone is pretty much on one side of the discussion agreeing with each other.

Imo, it would obviously require a bit more moderating because a discussion could become a debate, but Live has always been on top of that and since he said he did ask for help, if there was another mod I'm sure they'd be on top of it too. So if something is posted in the discussion forum and it starts to get heated, it could easily be moved into the debate subforum and they could continue.

Livewire October 25th, 2011 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 6903898)
A rename like that would probably lead to further confusion and would not help the forum's organisation all that much, in my opinion. It already has two major, vastly different types of discussions that don't mix, and because of that, prefixes are not a solution.

All you would end up with is a renamed forum.

How hard is it to get? You have debates, and you have discussions. It's pretty self-explanatory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6903904)
The only appropriate thing to do in my mind is to filter out all the heated discussions.

Other Chat is a forum that has become somewhere where it's hard for new members to really get into. Every thread seems to go from a discussion to a small debate or a large-scale debate. Some people just like discussions without it turning into a debate. So a solution to that would be to filter the debates into a sub-forum, and leave behind the remains of a free-for-all forum that Other Chat has traditionally been and focus on keeping those threads on their own, without becoming a debate.

Right now, it seems like Other Chat is pretty much a Debates & Discussions forum, focusing on news and politics and religion and the like, with debates being the primary thread type. The atmosphere of the forum is really tense when I go there, I find, which discourages most members from posting.

This fixes the problem, pretty much. Put the heated discussions in it's own spot. However, the people who constantly stir up the debates, thus causing the atmosphere, just won't up and go away.

Melody October 25th, 2011 8:13 PM

What Live said holds true. Discussions that get escalated or heated can be warned and moved to Debates subforum too if people get passionate about it.

Additionally, there can be a different ruleset for the debates sub-forum which makes it easier for Live to more quickly act on and discourage trolling or stubborn argumentative folks who clog the debates up until it ignites up like so much tinder.

Nick October 25th, 2011 8:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live_Wire466 (Post 6904217)
This fixes the problem, pretty much.Put the heated discussions in it's own spot. However, the people who constantly stir up the debates, thus causing the atmosphere, just won't up and go away.

Just make it so that debates won't be permitted to be the result of an innocent discussion thread, unless circumstances provide the excuse for one. Don't want to up and go away? Have an infraction for breaking a new rule.

Livewire October 25th, 2011 8:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6904229)
Just make it so that debates won't be permitted to be the result of an innocent discussion thread, unless circumstances provide the excuse for one. Don't want to up and go away? Have an infraction for breaking a new rule.

Thus leading to more whiny CQ&F threads about how all I do is censor others' opinions and I "pick on" certain people? I like that idea, but think of how people would interpret that - "he infracted me in Other Chat? for debating? Preposterous, this is OC!" "So I guess you can only debate certain things, as long as you like it, wtf is up with that" etc. Thus adding to my headache.

But If Hstaff backs that, I'm game. If the answer is a bigger crackdown, then I'm game. But I need to know that you've got me when that thread here about how horrible I am shows up.

Melody October 25th, 2011 8:29 PM

Well it's either that or move a discussion that got heated to the debate forum, and give a warning to everyone.

The Debate forum would have stricter rules that would logically support infractions quickly.

EDIT: Let's not try to make Live seem tougher than he has to be. That only boosts the intimidation factor that OC has, and we're trying to DIMINISH IT.

Nick October 25th, 2011 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Live_Wire466 (Post 6904237)


Thus leading to more whiny CQ&F threads about how all I do is censor others' opinions and I "pick on" certain people? I like that idea, but think of how people would interpret that - "he infracted me in Other Chat? for debating? Preposterous, this is OC!"

But If Hstaff backs that, I'm game. But I need to know that you've got me when that thread here about how horrible I am shows up.

If you are getting complaints about getting an infraction for them essentially disturbing a discussion, then you can kindly point out the direction to the debate forum, the higher staff, and the log out button, because they shouldn't be on a discussion forum if they're reacting that way. Highly inappropriate, and highly discouraging to know that there are people who are that immature that they complain to such an extent of getting an infraction. Their ignorance of the rules and how things are done within a forum of someone's jurisdiction is enough to display how preposterous their argument is. Every single post made on PC is subject to staff moderation. They agreed to that when they registered. No,… no. They'll just have to suck it up. If you don't want that kind of business happening in the discussion threads, then sometimes things like that are necessary.

Livewire October 25th, 2011 9:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachy (Post 6904238)
Well it's either that or move a discussion that got heated to the debate forum, and give a warning to everyone.

The Debate forum would have stricter rules that would logically support infractions quickly.

EDIT: Let's not try to make Live seem tougher than he has to be. That only boosts the intimidation factor that OC has, and we're trying to DIMINISH IT.

The debate forum would obviously require a shorter leash, I agree.

And yes, making me out to be the mean OC moderator wouldn't exactly make things better.

Oryx October 25th, 2011 9:07 PM

One of the great upsides to this is that you can probably fairly easily be seen as not-so-strict outside of debates because it won't need as much bad-cop moderating :3 That's why the debates are good as a sub-forum; on the surface it's nice to see a forum that's open and easy to get into, and then people only go to look if they WANT to debate, not because they tried to make a lighthearted post in a heavy thread and got into one on accident or something, lol.

Ineffable~ October 25th, 2011 9:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6904263)
One of the great upsides to this is that you can probably fairly easily be seen as not-so-strict outside of debates because it won't need as much bad-cop moderating :3 That's why the debates are good as a sub-forum; on the surface it's nice to see a forum that's open and easy to get into, and then people only go to look if they WANT to debate, not because they tried to make a lighthearted post in a heavy thread and got into one on accident or something, lol.

I think I get this. It's like . . . people who have seen him at work in both subforums will see both sides of him and think "oh you know he's not so bad. I just realised his seriousness has a purpose".
I mean, as long as these people understand why Debates would need a tighter grip on it. >_>

Livewire October 26th, 2011 6:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6904263)
One of the great upsides to this is that you can probably fairly easily be seen as not-so-strict outside of debates because it won't need as much bad-cop moderating :3 That's why the debates are good as a sub-forum; on the surface it's nice to see a forum that's open and easy to get into, and then people only go to look if they WANT to debate, not because they tried to make a lighthearted post in a heavy thread and got into one on accident or something, lol.

This too. Being able to kick back and post casually there would be amazing. Separating the nice from the not-so-nice would really be a godsend.

FreakyLocz14 October 26th, 2011 8:50 PM

I have no problem with this. We can have a few subforums for the types of threads that dominate OC.

Oryx October 26th, 2011 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 6905473)
Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

If we added one or two subforums to OC, Pokemon-related forums would still overshadow other-related forums by nearly 10. Meanwhile, the people who do enjoy OC would appreciate the re-organization into a format that makes it easier to navigate, more fun to post in, more welcoming to new members, and generally less confusing.

The actual dedication on the part of people other than Live would just be to actually create the forum, right? I'm not sure what you mean by not needing that kind of dedication.

Zet October 26th, 2011 10:31 PM

I don't see the point in re-organizing OC, it's already simple to navigate.

Melody October 26th, 2011 10:42 PM

Zet, Didn't I just make the same argument before and get eaten alive by page 2?

Seriously, see for yourself. And one extra subforum for more heated topics wouldn't hurt, as it could be more strictly moderated and rules more strictly enforced there without threatening the welcoming atmosphere of OC as a whole. It's like having the courtyard where moderators don't need to do much and having the 'Roman Forum' where the Mod's word is Law and to defy it is death. XD

People who don't like the idea of 'death on defiance' can steer clear of that section and never worry about it.

Netto Azure October 27th, 2011 1:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 6905473)
Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

What do you mean by that?

People who like Pokemon already go to the Pokemon side of PC. Plus all the "Other" threads are already in the bottom half of the page. It's not as if those who go to PC for Pokemon related stuff will all of a sudden focus on going on Other Chat just because of a reorganization. xD

And mods for each section are kinda independent already, so it's not as if we're taking Pokemon mods and putting them to the Other Forums to "shift" dedication. xP

Livewire October 27th, 2011 6:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 6905473)
Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

So because it's not about Pokemon, we shouldn't care about fixing a genuine problem, and/or non Pokemon sections? That's ridiculous and something an Admin really shouldn't say. Why even have other non-pokemon sections in the first place, then? Fixing some problems with the section isn't dedication, it's basic forum maintenance, something we'd do with any section. Whether it's Pokemon or not is entirely irrelevant.

How about you actually come up with an argument against changing OC that doesn't boil down to "No, I don't want to"

seeker October 27th, 2011 6:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 6905473)
Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

Eh, I wouldn't say that. At all. Me, and many other members come here for anything but the Pokemon sections. So I wouldn't agree that the dedication is being put in the wrong place. Otherwise, you have about 16 or 17 mods you may as well fire, since they don't work on Pokemon related sections. Not to mention 5 or 6 of the higher staff got promoted from non-pokemon related sections, so they too don't exactly have the closest connection with Pokemon related sections.

The reason we're focusing on Other Chat is because clearly people feel here needs to be some work put into bringing it up to date, the Pokemon forums don't need to the same work by the looks of it. So unless you had some other meaning, I can't agree that there's no point in putting dedication into non-pokemon related sections, they're just as important.

Yoshikko October 27th, 2011 6:56 AM

I don't know I actually like the idea. It would clear it up and put everything on its place a bit more. And I do think that OC is like any other section at PC, It's GOOD that there is one which covers different things than Pokémon and I find it equally important.

Alex October 27th, 2011 7:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Sotomura (Post 6905473)
Sure, we could spend more time acting like an other forum than a Pokémon forum.

But I don't think we need that kind of dedication.

Wait, why are you on staff again? I thought staff members were here to better the functionality of the forum and overall happiness of members interacting on that forum. What could changing OC a bit hurt.

This isn't about dedication, this is about your own personal stubbornness.

Nick October 27th, 2011 8:29 AM

My concern is if this is an issue with the forum itself or the members of the forum. Is it a problem in the way the forum is built that causes these issues to occur, or is it because the members make them occur? Thread prefixes may fix this issue very easily. A thread prefix for debates, a thread prefix for discussions. At the very least, it'll help us identify the problem. If people start debating in a thread that has a discussion prefix, the problem is clear and we can deal with it accordingly. If that doesn't occur, and this still goes on, then the problem isn't with the members, but with the forum itself - and we might have to look into restructuring it.

seeker October 27th, 2011 9:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6905925)
My concern is if this is an issue with the forum itself or the members of the forum. Is it a problem in the way the forum is built that causes these issues to occur, or is it because the members make them occur? Thread prefixes may fix this issue very easily. A thread prefix for debates, a thread prefix for discussions. At the very least, it'll help us identify the problem. If people start debating in a thread that has a discussion prefix, the problem is clear and we can deal with it accordingly. If that doesn't occur, and this still goes on, then the problem isn't with the members, but with the forum itself - and we might have to look into restructuring it.

The members being the issue was something I raised earlier, so I have to agree. So by taking your point as to how the prefixes would help again I would have to agree. I think prefixes would avoid confusion as to the type of thread people are posting in. Some tend to debate in the wrong kind of threads.

But above all, people need to know the difference between argument and debate.

moments. October 27th, 2011 11:42 AM

Regarding prefixes though, I've seen in other sections prefixes being used incorrectly and stuff, and while it didn't really matter in those forums, in OC, using the wrong prefix completely changes the gist of a thread, and might not be easily noticed it as a mistake.

I'm not saying their shouldn't be prefixes, I like the idea more than subforums, but just an idea for thought. Also, I'm sure a whole lot of people might not notice prefixes they can change and leave them blank, which won't help a whole lot easier.

I didn't think OC really needed this change, but I guess it would make it clearer and more organised. Then again, and like everyone else has said, really it comes down to Live.

Nick October 27th, 2011 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnegation (Post 6905983)
But above all, people need to know the difference between argument and debate.

A more pressing issue would be those who can't differentiate between a discussion and a debate.

Oryx October 27th, 2011 12:02 PM

As far as prefixes, I really don't feel like that accomplishes as much as an actual subforum for more serious discussions. There will still be that tense atmosphere in OC, to begin with. Part of the point of the subforum was to make the main forum more open and fun to post in, and less of "only come to OC if you want to debate people". Prefixes also don't allow Live to put harsher rules on debates as easily, as that could easily confuse people if it was separate rules for separate prefixes, especially when a thread has no prefix at all. It also doesn't streamline as much as subforums would except for the people that are looking for both casual and serious discussion at once, which is most likely in the minority compared to people that are either looking for a serious topic or looking to just casually post.

Maybe I'm missing something though. What's the inherent value in prefixes that make them a better solution than a subforum?

Esper October 27th, 2011 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6906179)
Maybe I'm missing something though. What's the inherent value in prefixes that make them a better solution than a subforum?

Prefixes are a small change rather than a big change and are kind of a middle ground between the people who want something like a new subforum and the people who don't see a need to make any changes to the structure of OC. They could be a small scale experiment.

seeker October 27th, 2011 1:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru (Post 6906169)
A more pressing issue would be those who can't differentiate between a discussion and a debate.

Then additions to the rules, and how to post in OC, would be a necessary inclusion in that case. However, people make the thread and decide what they want to get out of it in the first post, the same goes for a prefix. If Live/higher staff/future OC staff think that the prefix was better as something else, then all they need do is change it. But I can't see it creating too much of an issue.

Nick October 28th, 2011 3:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6906179)
As far as prefixes, I really don't feel like that accomplishes as much as an actual subforum for more serious discussions. There will still be that tense atmosphere in OC, to begin with. Part of the point of the subforum was to make the main forum more open and fun to post in, and less of "only come to OC if you want to debate people". Prefixes also don't allow Live to put harsher rules on debates as easily, as that could easily confuse people if it was separate rules for separate prefixes, especially when a thread has no prefix at all. It also doesn't streamline as much as subforums would except for the people that are looking for both casual and serious discussion at once, which is most likely in the minority compared to people that are either looking for a serious topic or looking to just casually post.

Maybe I'm missing something though. What's the inherent value in prefixes that make them a better solution than a subforum?

While I don't necessarily agree that prefixes will prevent Live from providing harsher rules on debates (really, all it takes is something like "ANYTHING WITH A DEBATE PREFIX..." be added to the rules), I agree with the bold, and think that's the most important thing that needs to be addressed regarding OC as it deals with promotion and member-based issues. A lot of the problems, I think, essentially stem from that. If the atmosphere wasn't the way it is, perhaps members wouldn't turn everything into a debate?

bobandbill October 28th, 2011 3:39 AM

And I also agree with that, which is probably why I'm not quite the big fan of OC myself. Certainly think subforums is the way to go for it, although how many/what exactly beyond one for debates (which I most certainly think is doable) I'm not sure what I think should be the case tbh.

Melody October 28th, 2011 5:07 AM

I like the prefix ideas but my only problem with it is simply that as previously mentioned, they can be made superfluous and relatively useless when you get a lot of newbs who don't know they're supposed to tag the thread with some prefix. Naturally Live can edit those to a prefix he sees fit but eh. If nobody uses the prefixes then they're doing no good.

So I'm still all for the subforum. That way if someone forgets a prefix, all they did was forget to classify what type of debate it was and that's far less damaging in my eyes.

Oryx October 28th, 2011 5:24 AM

Basically the way I see it is if we're going so far as to make different rules for different prefixes, then that should be a sign that it's too complicated for prefixes, especially since you can have no prefix. What rule would that fall under? Would Live have to judge all the ones without a prefix and add one based on the first post? Or would there just be a set of rules for threads with no prefix? I just think it's kind of silly when a subforum does the same thing better.

Livewire October 28th, 2011 9:17 AM

If it helps me out, at this point, I'd willingly go and manually edit [Debate] & [Discussion] tags into the title's of the first 2 pages of active threads, and add them for all new subsequent ones.

Melody October 28th, 2011 9:24 AM

That may be useful in the interim while we press for a subforum Live_Wire.

Oryx October 28th, 2011 9:35 AM

Haha, is this like OC martial law until h-staff decides whether or not to add a subforum or prefixes?

Netto Azure October 28th, 2011 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6907410)
Haha, is this like OC martial law until h-staff decides whether or not to add a subforum or prefixes?

I like that idea. Just cuz I play too many RTS games. xD

That aside, 1 sub forum should deal with most of the issues. Plus general tags/Prefixes for specific topics.

In BMGf we use "RIP, Science, Diplomacy, Sports, History, Disaster, War, and Secession" (LOL) for the prefix options. You guys could just add more Prefix' if more general topics need to be addressed.

That system I outlined should take care of the reason why people want multiple sub forums eh?

Plus it incorporates all the ideas brought up so far. 8D

Livewire November 1st, 2011 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toujours (Post 6907410)
Haha, is this like OC martial law until h-staff decides whether or not to add a subforum or prefixes?

It seems like that is my only alternative.

Also, this isn't dead yet.

Kura November 1st, 2011 11:19 PM

Could we just maybe have a subforum for politics and law-stuff? There's a lot of stuff that involves American politics/ events that as a member from outside the states, I don't care much for.
News INCLUDING America and ALSO general news articles/discussions can stay on the main page as I am sure that everyone wants to know what news is going on in the world.. but for more political/controversial threads maybe put them somewhere different?
News and general offtopic chat (IE food thread and a thread about outer space etc) IMO acts as a casual section which would be the main section.. whereas politics gets really in-depth and you gotta know what's actually going on with em to be involved in that thread.. and could be put as a subforum for not as generalized discussion.

Just a suggestion *shrug*

Ineffable~ November 1st, 2011 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kura (Post 6912837)
Could we just maybe have a subforum for politics and law-stuff? There's a lot of stuff that involves American politics/ events that as a member from outside the states, I don't care much for.
News INCLUDING America and ALSO general news articles/discussions can stay on the main page as I am sure that everyone wants to know what news is going on in the world.. but for more political/controversial threads maybe put them somewhere different?
News and general offtopic chat (IE food thread and a thread about outer space etc) IMO acts as a casual section which would be the main section.. whereas politics gets really in-depth and you gotta know what's actually going on with em to be involved in that thread.. and could be put as a subforum for not as generalized discussion.

Just a suggestion *shrug*

Just because I'm dense right now and honestly can't tell, what is the difference between that layout and the layout we were already discussing? (i.e. the one I kept supporting)

Oryx November 2nd, 2011 3:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ineffable~ (Post 6912852)

Just because I'm dense right now and honestly can't tell, what is the difference between that layout and the layout we were already discussing? (i.e. the one I kept supporting)

The biggest difference is every debate not related to news in this idea would remain on the front page, such as "Your View on God" (I don't visit that thread but it looks like it would have debate), "Will Humans Evolve Further", etc.


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