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Affordable Care Act and the Religious Exemption
As I'm sure... Well, actually, I'd be surprised if most people knew about this, as it's fairly under the radar, the U.S. government has backed the Affordable Care Act, ruling it valid just last week.
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The question being addressed is, is the bill constitutional? Should religious organizations be forced to pay for something that they fundamentally disagree with? Or should such things be done away with, in favor of what the majority wants? Before anyone brings it up, the "religious exemption" being offered with the bill only covers organizations where 100% of the employees are believers of X faith. Of course, the argument could be made that "it's unfair to the one person", but how much weight should we put on that? Does one person negate the beliefs of an entire organization? Should the law be upheld even when it conflicts with moral beliefs? Or should moral beliefs be upheld even when they conflict with the law? Discuss. |
Emergency contraceptives are legal to anyone over 17 who wants them anyway, and only cost like $40. This article sounds completely biased, also. "[...] thus destroying a human life as it begins its development into a child." Really? Destroying a human life? Isn't that a bit melodramatic?
No one is forcing anyone to get morning after pills. I fail to see any issue here that isn't about pro-lifers being offended about something they probably don't understand and doesn't actually affect them. But honestly, I didn't read the entire article so I may have missed something. |
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I say this sincerely, if you can find a more neutral article, please post it. Quote:
The issue isn't the availability of contraception, that's an entirely different battle that's being fought elsewhere. The issue is, "Should people be forced to pay for, and offer, things that they are fundamentally opposed to?" Contraceptives aren't a basic necessity, as pregnancy by itself is not a disease. If you think otherwise, I wonder if you wish you mother had agreed with you. Religious institutions, such as hospitals, schools, and charities, should not be forced to give funding to something which is a clear-cut no-no for them. The alternative to disobeying the law would be to acquire exemption by laying off all non-believers on staff, leading to mass job loss. Of course, I'm sure that all this fuss, all these people getting upset that their rights are being infringed on, is just a passing thing, and will die down eventually. However, it seems slightly hypocritical for people to wave the bloody shirt whenever anyone "sticks it to the man" of religion, while at the same time ignoring Christians who voice similar complaints. But what do I know, I'm a pro-lifer. Quote:
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A person has to pay taxes, some of which go to your local school system even if that person doesn't have a child in the school system.
So, essentially, the forced taxation for services that you won't use has been around for a while. Nothing new, just a lot more people *****ing complaining about it. But contraceptives are not the only thing your having to pay for, even if you never intend to use them. This bill is a attempt to ensure everyone for every condition, even though no single person will ever be effected by all covered conditions. |
I don't understand why contraceptives should be singled out as being something people don't want to pay for, when we already pay for contentious things like health care, the military, the post office, and myriad other governmental functions. Oh wait, yes I do: it's because you are personally morally opposed to something because you perceive it to be murder. By dancing around the issue and framing it like "should we have to PAY for this?" you're obfuscating your actual intentions. I'm gonna go out on a limb and suspect that you probably don't believe that emergency contraceptives are perfectly fine otherwise, if you didn't have to pay for them.
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I'm not against contraceptives or universal health care. I just don't understand why some certain contraceptives would be covered. Assuming, I understood "This means surgical sterilization, all methods of contraception approved by the Food and Drug Administration, education and counseling must now be covered by health care, as mandated by the HHS" correctly.
It's not the responsibility of the government or your employer to see that you get laid. If you want to have sex, go buy some condoms and do it responsibly. Why would such common over-the-counter stuff be covered? If I totally misunderstood, please correct me. Abortions, I understand. Surgeries. But, over the counter things? |
Ooh, I love posts like this!
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Anyway, on to the non-troll posts. I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not complaining about having to pay more taxes for things I'll never use (for example, I attend a private school, and we still pay taxes for public. I'm cool with that. Reading helps, mate), it's about paying taxes for things that are fundamentally against my beliefs. The thread was meant to ask, "Should people be forced to provide for something that runs counter to their beliefs?", but the concept seems like a difficult one to grasp, so I will simplify. Now, all insurance policies are required to cover contraception (which is considered immoral and wrong by certain religious groups, mine included), and now everyone is more-or-less forced to have insurance. So, boys and girls, the problem is thus: Bob is a Christian. Bob is required by Mr. Government to get insurance. Bob's insurance is required by Mr. Government to provide for contraception. Therefore, Bob is required to pay for other people to receive things that he is fundamentally opposed to. "But the bill states that churches are exempt!" However, Bob works at Christian Hospital, which is run by Christians. Christian Hospital, in the interest of not being "close-minded bigots" that everyone accuses them of being, has hired people of other faiths and backgrounds. Therefore, they are no longer exempt, because what if Charlie wants to get his girlfriend the morning after pill? Therefore, everyone who opposes such things must pay for Charlie's pill through insurance, or face heavy government penalties. If I need to explain to you why people would be mildly irked, then I'm sorry. This isn't the thread to debate whether contraception is right or wrong, we already have one for that. This is a thread to discuss how important or unimportant people's morals and beliefs are, and how much the government can intervene. ... ... Discuss. |
Wait wait wait, so this is the employer actually paying for medicine/healthcare on a per pill/per doctor visit basis rather than some sort of medical insurance/drug plan?
Notes: in my "pro-lifers being offended about something they probably don't understand and doesn't actually affect them" I wasn't implying their thoughts or beliefs are wrong, just that many people don't realize that "emergency contraception" doesn't mean "baby-killing pills." Most work by stopping fertilization in the first place. But for those against contraception I guess it doesn't matter as much. And if they're actually paying the $40 for a morning-after pill, rather than a flat amount of money somewhere, I retract the latter portion of my statement, because they are directly buying it so I can understand the problem there. But if they are paying a flat rate, it shouldn't matter what pills they buy. Hence the "doesn't actually affect them." Hell, he shouldn't KNOW what pills they're buying, because that's an invasion of privacy. |
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO. The problem isn't "knowing what they buy", the problem isn't "paying for something they'll never use", the problem isn't "paying for something that's OTC". The problem is that we are fundamentally against contraception, and Catholic institutions will be forced to provide for something that they are vehemently against, or lay everyone off. |
Um, just because you're Catholic doesn't automatically give you the right to butt into other people's business. It might be a different story if they had to directly pay for it, but opposing insurance because someone could get birth control is ridiculous. It isn't hurting you, it isn't hurting them, it isn't affecting your life in any way, shape or form. Whether they use said insurance for birth control pills or blood pressure medicine. I don't get why people insist on judging others and getting angry about things that have absolutely no bearing on their own lives until they insert themselves into the situation.
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We had a somewhat similar problem here. It was decided that all publicly-funded schools must offer an after-school social club for gay students if a student requests it. A school cannot reject having such a club. Personally, I don't really care. However, the argument brought up was that Catholic schools (which here are publicly funded) would have to allow such clubs. Interestingly, the Catholic school board itself didn't make a fuss - but third party interest groups did. In the end, you bite the bullet. Disallowing it for everyone only hurts those who weren't going to use it anyway. |
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Because Catholic organizations use insurance plans that don't cover the objectionable options, while acting as a regular insurance program otherwise. This would force even the "agreeable options" to offer contraception, which is a bad thing. In all sincerity, I fail to see why we're going through this circle. Quote:
For example, let's say the government mandated that all citizens must pay taxes that go to supporting, say, sending homosexual kids to gulags. Would you be okay with this because "you wouldn't use it, so why care"? Quote:
Hypothetically, anyway. Quote:
1. They're publicly funded, so they do whatever they're told, as they're getting the money conditionally. My school, as well as the local hospitals, aren't. They're self-sustained to avoid having the government intervene on their beliefs, which is why this order is so offensive. 2. Catholics have no problems with loving homosexual children. It's typically the fringe groups that are screaming for blood and hellfire. I'm glad someone understands this. Quote:
I'm sorry, I really don't understand. I read this thread, and then I read the thread about the Girl Scouts, where everyone's in a tizzy because rights are being violated, and I just can't reconcile them. It seems that it's only okay to violate some people's rights, so long as they have the same views as the special interest group of the month. People like me? Sorry, but we're high and dry, because butthurt Catholics doesn't make for good news. That's what I have a problem with. The lovely double standards. That's what this thread is supposed to be about. |
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Not implying that the law is unconstitutional or not, because I'm honestly not certain in this case. And this is coming from someone who has gotten birth control off of government health insurance in the past. |
The point isn't whether or not it's murder, the point is, how would you feel if someone forced you to fund said murder?
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Those two are very interrelated. I was defending your side, no need to try to correct me. Yeesh.
I would really appreciate it if you would cool your jets a little, it makes it difficult to have an actual discussion with you jumping down everyone's throats. |
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If your organization is no longer recognized as being a Catholic organization because you have non-Catholic employees, well... thems the rules. You can't be exempt. Regain your Catholic status and then you're exempt. There's no inbetween for if your organization is "almost Catholic". Now, this line of the article you posted... Quote:
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Also, trying to make seven small children shut up and learn CPR tends to make me extremely cranky. -_- Apologies! I didn't mean any offense. @TRIFORCE: So... lay off non-Catholic employees? That creates a whole 'nother problem. |
So wait, do Catholics equate birth control to murder? Serious question here, not incredibly well-versed on the Catholic faith.
Though, to keep this away from being solely about Catholics, this poses a problem to other religions as well... Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind. Having to pay for blood transfusions and the like. |
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Birth control would require a lot of explanation (most of it dependent on certain views of humanity and reproduction), but the short answer is "It's bad, don't do it." Quote:
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It isn't denying them healthcare, it's just refusing to pay for it. The government isn't poor, it has other ways of acquiring the money.
However, I was taught that it's better to keep yourself morally clean and let the offense be entirely the other person's. The same principle applies here. Why should I be forced to stain my hands? |
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I wouldn't be against an alternate option for employers that identify as Catholic, or a Catholic institution, that didn't include contraceptives and others. So far I haven't really seen an argument that's been very compelling the other way. And my apologies for misunderstanding you as well Alice, lol. :3 |
The government is sorta poor. The country is like 15 trillion dollars in debt.
That didn't exactly answer my question. In fact, it kinda dodged it. I thought the problem was not with companies being forced to pay for healthcare, but with paying for healthcare that didn't conform to your beliefs. What if someone needs a very important surgery? And they can't pay for it because you decided that the healthcare system was wrong because of birth control pills? How is that right? |
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See that's the thing. The Church is faced with the dilemma of "Lay everyone off and reduce our effectiveness in healthcare, or compromise our beliefs and pretty much make it pointless to believe in anything anymore". Still. I think your argument is invalid because insurance=/=ability to have the surgery. Yes, it helps a lot to be able to pay, but do you honestly think a man that was willing to protest something like this for his beliefs would deny someone surgery if they needed it to save their lives? And before you nail me with "What if the pregnancy is life-threatening?", there's a whole slew of moral teachings on that, and that's a thread in and of itself. There are times when it is and isn't okay to kill either the baby or the mother to save the other. But it's never okay to kill because "I don't want it/can't support it". There are charities and shelters (run by the Church, no less!) for such things. Err, is that clear? I think I answered your question. :/ |
I'm not trying to get pro-choice on you, I'm not sure what exactly inspired that tone but I understand that being a natural reaction.
I needed a serious surgery and didn't have insurance, they pretty much told me too bad. If you pay cash we'll reduce the cost by about 75%... which was still about $14k. They wouldn't do it because it wasn't an emergency, though if I didn't get it I could essentially just drop dead. Hospitals aren't as giving as you think :\ Anyway, I had follow ups but I lost my train of thought here, so... nevermind. Quote:
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