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-   -   6th Gen The Elite Four (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=297830)

Ho-Oh March 22nd, 2013 8:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerilyn (Post 7592138)
I liked Unova's Elite Four in that you could choose which order you battled each one, but I would prefer if that were to happen again that the levels of each elite members didn't remain static.

Something I would like to see is a departure from specific types and a turn to a more strategic Elite Four with a mix of different Pokémon. For example:

Elite Member 1: Specializes in Attack
Elite Member 2: Specializes in Sp. Attack
Elite Member 3: Specializes in Speed
Elite Member 4: Specializes in HP, Defense, and Sp. Defense

Champion: A well balanced and competitively challenging team

It's nothing more than a pipe dream really, but I wouldn't actually mind if they broke away from each Elite member having a special type.

Sounds fun! Also relates to what Fifth Gen had in a way. For example, Marshal was specialising in Attack, Shauntal in Special Attack, Grimsley in Speed and Caitlin in the others. I think from that pattern, something along those lines actually is possible for this generation if they just move to just elite people rather than elite type-loving people. :(

Guy March 23rd, 2013 5:07 AM

It would certainly make the Elite 4 more of a challenge considering you wouldn't know which Pokémon they'd have on them. Whereas with specific types, you can almost guess which Pokémon they'll be using before you battle them and you can be ready for it.

inferno7453 March 24th, 2013 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerilyn (Post 7592138)
I liked Unova's Elite Four in that you could choose which order you battled each one, but I would prefer if that were to happen again that the levels of each elite members didn't remain static.

Something I would like to see is a departure from specific types and a turn to a more strategic Elite Four with a mix of different Pokémon. For example:

Elite Member 1: Specializes in Attack
Elite Member 2: Specializes in Sp. Attack
Elite Member 3: Specializes in Speed
Elite Member 4: Specializes in HP, Defense, and Sp. Defense

Champion: A well balanced and competitively challenging team

It's nothing more than a pipe dream really, but I wouldn't actually mind if they broke away from each Elite member having a special type.

THIS^ It's just like Norman's gym, where the trainers before him all specialize in one stat, only this would be way harder. Something like this would either force people who don't EV train to EV train, or require mad tactics. Plus I can see a Steel, Ghost and Flying combo for the Attack specialization, and a Dragon, Fire and Psychic combo for the Sp. Attack specialization. And I think it'd be cool if each one of the E4 had a forme of Deoxys specific for their specialized stat.

Monogito March 24th, 2013 1:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inferno7453 (Post 7594415)
THIS^ It's just like Norman's gym, where the trainers before him all specialize in one stat, only this would be way harder. Something like this would either force people who don't EV train to EV train, or require mad tactics. Plus I can see a Steel, Ghost and Flying combo for the Attack specialization, and a Dragon, Fire and Psychic combo for the Sp. Attack specialization. And I think it'd be cool if each one of the E4 had a forme of Deoxys specific for their specialized stat.

That's a problem, may I remind you that the target audience for Pokemon are kids, which are less likely to do extensive strategics and/or to use a mechanic that costs time and isn't exactly the most fun thing to do.

Maybe if the game had a hard setting or something this could fit but I find it unlikely to go on normal game play, unless it was something toned down so the need wouldn't be this apparent and could be circumvented more easily.

inferno7453 March 24th, 2013 1:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monogito (Post 7594431)
That's a problem, may I remind you that the target audience for Pokemon are kids, which are less likely to do extensive strategics and/or to use a mechanic that costs time and isn't exactly the most fun thing to do.

Maybe if the game had a hard setting or something this could fit but I find it unlikely to go on normal game play, unless it was something toned down so the need wouldn't be this apparent and could be circumvented more easily.


I agree. Although I myself don't EV train, I'd love to have a challenge like this. Thinking about the kids though definitely you'd need the Hard and Normal modes. The normal one could be the same team, but without the same specialization, like less stat value for that specific stat (instead of 200 speed, have 120 speed).

Kurapika March 24th, 2013 3:59 PM

You don't really need to EV train for such an E4.
Get a Physical Attacker for the spDef E4
And a Special Attacker for the Def E4
Get some uber spdef or a calm mind user pokemon to counter the spAtk E4 (works also for the Def E4)
And Curse/Bulk UP or epicly defensive poke for the Atk E4 (works also for the spDef E4)
Also, there are a lot of status moves (like stealth rock, leech seed, ..Etc) and some damage-dealingm oves (like Foul Play, Seismic Toss, ... etc) that don't require EV training.

Monogito March 24th, 2013 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurapika (Post 7594609)
You don't really need to EV train for such an E4.
Get a Physical Attacker for the spDef E4
And a Special Attacker for the Def E4
Get some uber spdef or a calm mind user pokemon to counter the spAtk E4 (works also for the Def E4)
And Curse/Bulk UP or epicly defensive poke for the Atk E4 (works also for the spDef E4)
Also, there are a lot of status moves (like stealth rock, leech seed, ..Etc) and some damage-dealingm oves (like Foul Play, Seismic Toss, ... etc) that don't require EV training.

Again, the audience. If you grabbed a kid that played Pokemon odds are, it doesn't give a crap about stats and is just mashing the a button on the strongest attack (not only kids do that though), and that's it.

It's more likely they'll know about the type advantage but they won't care for the stats part of the game, they'll maybe take a glance at it and start using moves that favor that stats, but nothing deep and/or strategic about it. Pokemon is a game for the casual gamers, while it does have the more hardcore parts (Competitive Battling, RNG and it's setup) they're optional and depending on whether you frequent websites and read guides on the game, you may not even know about these parts.

And now about the strategies you mentioned:
- Get {Stat}er Pokemon: Kids would likely get Pokemon for the rule of cute and/or the rule of cool, not practicality or stats.
- Move Strategies: Strategy more advanced than "Use a par/brn/slp/psn move and then keep attacking" is rare.

This is a business, they focus the game to be more attractive to the target audience, that's why the puzzles are usually easy and the battling scene can be done so casually - save from a few trainers like Morimoto and Cynthia were in BW -, the only way this suggestion could be done would be bumping the difficulty of the whole game - because if you spend the entire game beating trainers that have random Pokemon or a single type when it comes one that is actually specialized in a way they can have a diverse team with a more competitive movepool you'd be lost -, maybe if the game had a hard setting on ...

Monogito March 25th, 2013 2:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Sky (Post 7594895)
Mmmmm, I dunno, I mean, that's a pretty big sweeping generalization of how kids play. Though however accurate is probably subjective, I suppose. EV training is, of course, for the more advanced trainer, but I'm sure it's within reach for children to learn. /shrugs. Could be wrong, though.

Honestly though, this is the elite four we're talking about here. If you're a kid, especially being a kid that's a longtime Pokemon fan, then you should have enough sense to know that the Elite Four is not going to be easy by any means (at least, the basic concept of the E4 is that they're not supposed to be easy). When you apply that to adults, we know how to strategize fairly easily, especially those of us that have been in competitive battling for a long time.

That doesn't mean that kids don't know how to strategize as well, but perhaps not to the extent that the older gamers do. When you're talking about the Elite four, the concept to grasp here is that you have a bunch of trainers that usually have level 55+ Pokemon, so the obvious answer to a kid is to have a higher level Pokemon, with a semi-decent moveset. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a strategy to beat the elite four. If they could figure out type matchups, then they can figure out stats. I don't think stats are a hard concept to grasp at all, assuming that there's some sort of tutorial included in-games that explains it.

I suppose so, but to get across EV training, you'd need to either get across some items or to do selective grinding, both of which take time.
And IV training is just mass breeding; the manhours that take to do this aren't going to do wonders on holding the attention of kids.
But I dunno, I could be just generalizing.

Honest March 25th, 2013 6:23 AM

Gen 5's method was much better in my opinion. I liked having the choice of who I wanted to face when. The old method wasn't bad, though, I just believe it was too linear for my liking.

giradialkia March 25th, 2013 7:51 AM

I hadn't given it that much thought, but I wouldn't mind if the Elite 4 was presented in Gen 6 the same way as in Gen 5, although to be honest I'd be equally fine with it if it went back to the 'standard' way, 4 in a row. Types aside, if you were high enough level to beat one Elite 4 member, you were high enough to beat them all (in Gen 5)- which is fine! Though I'm also fine with battling through 4 trainers, each tougher than the next. I remember the first time I took on the League in Ruby and how terrified I was when he sent out his level 55 Salamence. Somehow, I just think there's a greater sense of achievement when you beat the 4 when they're organised in a linear way- but that's just me.

Ho-Oh March 25th, 2013 8:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodex (Post 7595284)
Gen 5's method was much better in my opinion. I liked having the choice of who I wanted to face when. The old method wasn't bad, though, I just believe it was too linear for my liking.

ya I liked that too. I think it'll probably occur again, because why else make it that way in gen 5 WITH positive feedback? uh, grammar, but yeah I see it returning in this generation because why not.

Jake♫ March 25th, 2013 7:06 PM

I definitely liked generation five's method, although the static level thing was kind of iffy to me. I mean, I guess it makes sense so that all four of them are considered equal, while the champion is on his/her own level, but I don't really like that. I'd rather have the top five trainers be ranked, not have four tied for second and then a champion. Keep the choice mechanic, but give us some level curving.

lonewolfe707 March 26th, 2013 9:01 AM

If I may... I'm a teenager, and me and my little brother both play pokemon very seriously. My brother does know about ev's, and he actually uses them more than I do. I don't think you guys who are talking about ev's and how kids don't recognize them realize this, in my experience with my brother and his friends, kids do battle competitively and do care about stats and ev's. just saying.

Fire Flyy March 30th, 2013 10:13 AM

Generation 5's was cool I guess because it was different but in all honesty the other system was far far superior, it's the Pokemon League so I want there to be suspense and a challenge and Generation 5's method voided that substantially. I'm confident that the old system will come back though. One type of middle ground that might be cool is to actually have an Elite Six with the 1st and 4th member static but the 2nd and 3rd depend on what door you enter after the 1st and 2nd Elites, a la Norman's gym, I think this would be pretty cool actually. Also Elite predictions:

1st-Water
2nd-Fire
3rd-Rock
4th-New Type xdddd

Guy April 21st, 2013 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giradialkia (Post 7595351)
I hadn't given it that much thought, but I wouldn't mind if the Elite 4 was presented in Gen 6 the same way as in Gen 5, although to be honest I'd be equally fine with it if it went back to the 'standard' way, 4 in a row. Types aside, if you were high enough level to beat one Elite 4 member, you were high enough to beat them all (in Gen 5)- which is fine! Though I'm also fine with battling through 4 trainers, each tougher than the next. I remember the first time I took on the League in Ruby and how terrified I was when he sent out his level 55 Salamence. Somehow, I just think there's a greater sense of achievement when you beat the 4 when they're organised in a linear way- but that's just me.

The more I think about it, the more I have to agree. While I liked the opportunity of choosing the order in which we battled the Elite 4 of Gen V, the feeling of achievement after beating each one just wasn't there. Sure, the older system was more linear, but you could feel the excitement level rising as each one got stronger and you got closer to the Champion's doors.

Rai April 21st, 2013 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerilyn (Post 7634231)
The more I think about it, the more I have to agree. While I liked the opportunity of choosing the order in which we battled the Elite 4 of Gen V, the feeling of achievement after beating each one just wasn't there. Sure, the older system was more linear, but you could feel the excitement level rising as each one got stronger and you got closer to the Champion's doors.

I agree completely. I liked the old Elite Four better because it was more exciting. The anticipation rose with every battle and it felt like there was no turning back as you moved forward.

I really did not like the way the Elite Four was set up in BW. I would prefer if they went back to the old style in the new games.

Jake♫ April 21st, 2013 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake♫ (Post 7596012)
I definitely liked generation five's method, although the static level thing was kind of iffy to me. I mean, I guess it makes sense so that all four of them are considered equal, while the champion is on his/her own level, but I don't really like that. I'd rather have the top five trainers be ranked, not have four tied for second and then a champion. Keep the choice mechanic, but give us some level curving.

So pretty much everyone agrees with that =P Which I definitely still support, since I thought having the Elite 4 as just one level cap silly. It really took all the challenge out of fighting them.

C Payne April 21st, 2013 4:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai (Post 7634246)
I agree completely. I liked the old Elite Four better because it was more exciting. The anticipation rose with every battle and it felt like there was no turning back as you moved forward.

I really did not like the way the Elite Four was set up in BW. I would prefer if they went back to the old style in the new games.

I think I'd have to agree with you there. I liked being able to choose the order of who I battled in Gen V, but the old method always seemed a lot more intense. Like you said, it definitely had more of that 'no turning back now' feeling that made it feel like you're in the big leagues. Gen V's league lacked that and I think that's why it had more of an empty feeling to me.

SolarAbusoru April 22nd, 2013 12:34 AM

Personally, I liked Generation 5's Elite 4 set up, cause honestly the old system felt kind of frustrating, I liked being able to choose, I myself still felt that feeling of achievement after beating each one even if I could choose which to go after, I want gen 5's system to stay, it was still intense but got rid of the frustration the old system brought.

Cassiopeiia April 22nd, 2013 8:56 AM

I'd actually like them to completely overhaul the whole Pokémon League. To me it has grown terribly stale, especially the Gyms.
Why are they even called Gyms, it's so uncool.

I'd still like there to be a number of trials you have to bypass before you're invited to challenge some kind of Pokémon Champion. It's a game mechanic that works, and it also functions as a checkpoint-system for our reference throughout the journey. But they could make it infinitely more interesting if they scrapped the whole organized-sports image that I associate with the Gyms and the Elite Four. Instead there should be a number (6?) of Pokémon Masters living solitarily in hard-to-reach places throughout the region, only accompanied by their Pokémon and nature. They should all have a full team of six Pokémon and be awesome. It wouldn't hurt if you encountered some of them beforehand either, giving their character some depth. After you have beaten them all you are invited, per letter, to face the Pokémon Champion in his/her personal sanctuary. My point is that they could make each of these trials unique, interesting and exciting if they would only deviate a little from the formula they've been using for each Pokémon game up to this day. And the changes would be mostly aesthetical really.

In addition to this there should be a huge festival and Pokémon Championship in which you fight in knockout tournaments. Here you would encounter mostly new trainers, but also trainers relevant to the story, as well as trainers from previous installments of Pokémon; Gym Leaders, Elite Four members, rivals etc. You know, this festival is the real deal, everyone wants to take part. Of course, you would face a new batch of trainers each time you enter, preventing it from getting boring and predictable, and making leveling Pokémon late-game more exciting.
The Battle Frontier could be even another thing, or perhaps part of this festival.

Jake♫ April 30th, 2013 8:30 AM

Although that all sounds like an awesome addition and revamp, I really don't see any sort of revamp of the system in the foreseeable future. For starters, changing the entire basis of you you enter the Pokémon League from all regions past probably wouldn't hold up to standards logistically in the Pokémon World. Although I think some things definitely could use some more depth, I don't think changing the entire layout of the games is really practical.

Cassiopeiia April 30th, 2013 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake♫ (Post 7645097)
Although that all sounds like an awesome addition and revamp, I really don't see any sort of revamp of the system in the foreseeable future. For starters, changing the entire basis of you you enter the Pokémon League from all regions past probably wouldn't hold up to standards logistically in the Pokémon World. Although I think some things definitely could use some more depth, I don't think changing the entire layout of the games is really practical.

You definitely have a point, and I don't really expect them to do any of this either. I just got a little carried away, rambling on about my personal fantasy for the future of Pokémon. :3

Krookodile777 May 6th, 2013 2:59 AM

I want the elite 4 to not be type specific

I want the elite for to be mixed types, with perfect EVs movesets natures & held items

Same with the champion

So that when I get past them I feel like I've accomplished something. Cause right now it's just a damn joke.

blue May 6th, 2013 3:10 AM

Having set types for the Elite Four makes it all that little easier to defeat them, it would be interesting to have a mixture of all types so that every ground is covered and more tactical planning is required.

Zorogami May 6th, 2013 5:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krookodile777 (Post 7651238)
I want the elite 4 to not be type specific

I want the elite for to be mixed types, with perfect EVs movesets natures & held items

So that when I get past them I feel like I've accomplished something. Cause right now it's just a damn joke.

I definitely agree with this, as the Elite 4 doesn't seem like thaaaat much of a challenge, at least imo. Especially in B/W, i don't get why they would give them only 4 pokes each...
But i don't think they would make them all non type specific, as that would be too much of a change. I guess they could make them 2 typed at least, so that one type can cover the other type's weakness(es)...that would make it more interesting at least.


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